Dennis Kucinuch stands up for the right approach to health care -- and he is the devil?

[Armstead]

If there were a REAL Democratic Party, what Kucinich is standing for would be mainstream.

But we don't, so he is demonized for standing up for what is right.

I love it....I just love it.

[DJ13]

1. Its a smokescreen so we dont notice that the Cong leadership is screwing us over

At least thats what the DLC'ers are hoping.

[Dinger]

2. K & R (nt)

[Nite Owl]

3. Well what Dennis is standing up for

actually is mainstream, it's the WH and Congress that are totally out of step with the people.

[Armstead]

5. I meant mainstream in Washington politics

[Nite Owl]

44. They keep saying it can't be done

what they mean is if they do it no one will fund their campaigns therefore it can't be done.

[Raine]

6. EXACTLY nt

[jefferson_dem]

12. Which "people"?

The vast majority of rank-in-file Dems support reform. Maybe you're talking about rank-in-file Repugs who the Dems are out of step with. Frankly, I'm cool with that.

[Armstead]

16. "reform" in name only

I'm for reform. This is not real reform. It is a fraud given the name reform.

[jefferson_dem]

19. So all the Dems (elected and in the electorate) are WRONG!

They just don't know what's good for them.

[Armstead]

23. They know what's good -- But the politicians have chosen not to do it

Many/most elected Dems and reasonable (non-wingnut) electorate DO want a public option and/or expansion of Medicare, and a fair percentage want true single payer.

But the politicians are not acting on that. For that, they are wrong.

And we are wrong for allowing them to get away with not doing what they know is right.

[jefferson_dem]

28. You know what. I totally agree with all that.

BUT...I will not let that frustration get in the way of my supporting the most expansive package of health care reforms in a a generation. With this foundation in place, we can add the public option in later as a supplement. Starting from scratch won't work.

[Nite Owl]

42. Actually I meant Dems and

Republicans. I don't know many dems who like this so called reform they are pushing through.

[HughMoran]

4. I guess you missed the million previous threads on this topic

BTW, lots of Dems are 'standing up' for their beliefs of what is 'right' for healthcare, but they are not on TV boasting about it.

[Armstead]

10. And what's wrong with taking the case to the public on TV?

If all people get to hear in the media is simpering waffling about how publioc coverage "is too radical", then how the hell are they going to know there are algternatives to the Beltway Conventional Wisdom?

[donco6]

93. They should be.

Instead of cowering in a corner, as usual.

[suzie]

115. But, they don't vote with the Republicans most of the time, like the DK.

[ClassWarrior]

124. Proof? Links? Anything?

Any source besides your rear end?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

126. I didn't think so.

NGU.

[eleny]

7. Agreed

I don't doubt that his heart is in the right place. His position would be mainstream if the Dems really were the Party of "Of, by and for the people". I can't be conned into believing that we're being well represented by the majority of Dems in the Congress when they've done everything to strangle a public option.

[jefferson_dem]

8. Not the devil. Just wrong...

again.

[Armstead]

13. Tell me how he is wrong...You mean like he was totally off base on Iraq in 2002-3?

yeah, I'm sure glad we didn't listen to him back when he was so WRONG ablout how Sadaam did not have any WMD's and the planned invasion of Iraq was a scam.

God he was so wrong then, I guess he's wrong now.

[jefferson_dem]

17. His vote against the House Health Care Reform bill, SCHIP, Cap and Trade, Stimulus...

His "department of peace" fantasy and so on.

Of course, we all know Obama was an outspoken opponent of the Iraq boondoggle in '03 also.

[Armstead]

21. Cap and trade I don;t know enlough about but...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/27/03018/2698

"I cannot support legislation which extends health coverage to some children while openly denying it to other children," Kucinich said. "This legislation is woefully inadequate: and I will not support it.

"Legal immigrant children deserve the same quality health care as other children receive. It is Congress’ responsibility to address the main difficulties that prevent legal immigrant children from gaining access to health care. Today, we did exactly the opposite.

That's right, this "progressive" legislation has omitted that part from the earlier version of expanding the program; the earlier version that Kucinich did vote for. And before someone starts arguing "realistic reform" and taking "steps in the right direction" ask yourself how likely it is that these children woould be addressed at a later time, in some reform down the road: when do you think Congress will address these children of parents who don't vote?

[jefferson_dem]

29. Thanks for the link.

That highlights the very problem I have with Kucinich. I do not question his motives and intentions. But here's another example where he opposed real benefits to help real people because he believed the program was not expansive enough. Bascially, he is saying "since we can't help everybody, we shouldn't help anybody." How is that not wrong?

[Armstead]

31. He voted for it before it was gutted -- Why should legal immigrants not be entitled to care?

I don't always agree with Kicinich's line in the sand approach -- But often I do because his line is a perfectly reasonable one, and I am sick of always having to settle for "lesser of evils" from democrats who cave into or cater to Republicans, wealthy special interests and their belief that they have to pander to the worst elements of the American public.

[sabrina 1]

88. I can't understand your thinking on this.

Cowards in Congress caved on providing possible life-saving treatment for immigrant children for political reasons and they get a pass, while the man who insists on shining a light on what goes on in this Congress, is to blame?

How could any liberal vote for that kind of horrendous and blatant discrimination? Deadly discrimination for those children. Congress should be ashamed. Kucinich is probably trying to do the impossible, I agree. Because he is dealing with soulless, uncaring, shameful and cowardly human beings who are not likely to change their ways. He probably should give up on them, they are beyond redemption.

If I were Kucinich, having witnessed their cowardice, throughout the Bush years and even when they have a majority, I would not stay in Congress. It is corrupted by money and power beyond fixing it seems. They would allow these children to die rather than fight the heartless Republicans, and Dennis is the one who is wrong?

He isn't the first ethical politician in history to be attacked for not 'going along' and he won't be the last, but the reason he cannot move these greedy, power-hungry politicians to do the right thing, is because they KNOW they will have the support of even so-called liberals, as we see here. If they couldn't count on that, they would grow some spine. Instead, they know that if they scare them enough, enough people will argue against what is right.

Dennis should not change his mind, but maybe he should consider the fact that the situation in DC is pretty hopeless, unless you are profiteering corporation.

[sabrina 1]

85. How is he wrong? People who oppose Kucinich never

respond to that question. They all use the same old talking points obviously handed out to use against him. But they never discuss the issues he is standing for.

Are you against a PO? Are you for a windfall for the Insurance Industry? What exactly is Kucinich wrong about?

[MadBadger]

110. Kucinich voted against the Public Option

And the problem I think most of us have is that he is way too idealistic for Congress.

[mzmolly]

95. Agreed. Alan Grayson also advocates for single payer but today he had this to say ~

http://grayson.house.gov/UploadedFiles/summary-presidents-proposal.pdf

The President’s Proposal puts American families and small business owners in control of their own health care.

• It makes insurance more affordable by providing the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history, reducing premium costs for tens of millions of families and small business owners who are priced out of coverage today. This helps over 31 million Americans afford health care who do not get it today – and makes coverage more affordable for many more.

• It sets up a new competitive health insurance market giving tens of millions of Americans the exact same insurance choices that members of Congress will have.

• It brings greater accountability to health care by laying out commonsense rules of the road to keep premiums down and prevent insurance industry abuses and denial of care.

• It will end discrimination against Americans with pre-existing conditions.

• It puts our budget and economy on a more stable path by reducing the deficit by $100 billion over the next ten years – and about $1 trillion over the second decade – by cutting government overspending and reining in waste, fraud and abuse.

More at the link above.

[DrToast]

9. He's not the devil, just wildly shortsighted with a touch of impractical

It's the end of the road. The choice is not single payer or the current bill. The choice is the current bill or nothing at all.

It's not a tough decision.

[Armstead]

15. That has been the argument from the beginning -- Real reform was always called "impractical"

Was never given a chance. Instead, the whole steamroller was on the side of insurance companies and against real reform that would at least offer people some alternative to bondage to the criminal health insurance industry.

Now or then -- Same old shit.

[DrToast]

20. That may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant now

Like I said, it's decision time. Do we go with the status quo or with the current bill?

The current bill isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternative...by far.

[Armstead]

22. The current bill is the statis quo on steriods

[boppers]

54. Changing pre-existing conditions and rescission is status quo?

Nope.

[Armstead]

65. Just wait -- You can get coverage with pre-existing. But it'll cost you dearly.

Why do you want to keep the insurance companies in the role of gatekeeper of healthcare coverage anyway?

[mr715]

67. Uh

because this is not the "fuck health insurance providers" bill.

Its a bill to insure the poorest of the poor, and it does that.



MR

[Armstead]

118. UH, That's be fucking easy

The poorest of the poor are already covered by Medicaid.

If that is the only objective, though, that's easy to fix in a very straight forward manner. Just expand the budget for Mdicaid, and auxilliary legislation to improve access and quality.

Look, everybody is getting fucked by the insurance providers. The only way to correct that is to fuck them back.

[sabrina 1]

87. The pre-existing condition part of the bill doesn't even begin

for nearly five years. What do you think is going to happen to it if Republicans gain a majority by then?

That should have been a separate bill. That bill should have made it a crime for a health insurance co. to refuse to treat sick people long ago. And it should have gone into effect immediately, if saving lives is the issue.

Imagine what would happen to any other business if they refused to provide the service they are being paid for, and people died as a result of that?

It is an outrage that 'Health' insurance companies were allowed to refuse to treat the sick, causing tens of thousands of deaths. It is criminally negligent homicide at the very least. And these are the same people we are being asked, once again, to entrust our healthcare system to? They should have been prosecuted.

And they get five more years to keep causing the deaths of sick people ~ for the worst possible reason, profit!

[DFLforever]

18. Exactly.

[Armstead]

66. You'd better change your avatar then, because that's how Wellstone was branded too

[Bluenorthwest]

76. Wellstone voted for the Defense of Marriage Act

He voted that I should not have equal rights.

[dflprincess]

109. And he publicily repented that vote and admitted he had not understood how hurtful that vote was

He came to that awareness because he was willing to listen to and be educated by people he had hurt with his vote. It was not a mistake he would have made again.

[laconicsax]

11. I love how some of the same people who were against the Senate bill a few months ago...

are now insisting that everyone needs to rally behind it because it's now the best thing we've got. Funny how a simple lowering of standards can persuade people that a shit piece of legislation has magically turned into gold.

[Skittles]

94. DAMN STRAIGHT

[quiet.american]

14. He's irrelevant at this point. The votes are there. nt

[Citizen Kang]

117. If the votes were there....

the bill would be passed by now.

[ProSense]

24. Martin Luther King stood up for civil rights

and welcomed the Civil Rights Act even though it didn't include voting rights. Now, considering that Kucinich isn't remotely the activist leader that King was, how does his stand on health care represent the "right approach to health care"?

Kucinich doesn't have a clue about how to effect progress. He thinks killing the bill because it doesn't go far enough is principled, but it's a ludicrous position.

He's willing to be the vote that will kill a bill that expands Medicaid for millions, reduces premiums for millions, ends rescission, cuts into the insurance companies' profits, gives people more choice, including a non-profit plan, and includes Sanders' state single payer plan, which unlike Kucinich's, provides funding from the federal government.

[Armstead]

33. If King were alive today the Democrats would be marginalizing him

Too embarassing...All those sit ins and that fiery rhetoric?

[ProSense]

36. If King were alive today, he'd be supporting health care reform

not the perfect bill, but the bill that leads to progress.

[saltpoint]

48. Agree. And he would also do what he did exceedingly better than

Dennis Kucinich, namely building coalitions to reach critical mass on meaningful reform.

[Armstead]

61. Therev is a critical mass for meaningful reform -- But Obama and Congress are ignoring it

[mr715]

68. Evidence?

or pulling shit?

[saltpoint]

69. We'd like to have the critical mass near to the same collective

force that propelled Eugene McCarthy and Robert F. Kennedy to lead discernible and significant coalition movements against the war in southeast Asia.

By no means is there an equivalent movement in the U.S. right now regarding health care reform and by no means is Dennis Kucinich likely to build one.

[burning rain]

105. That's probably not such a good example.

I'm sure about half of DUers would have opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as too radical and left-wing. The conservative Democrats in Congress were against it, and there is that very large faction of DUers who invariably affirm conservative Democrats' position as the wise and prudent one, and attack anyone who takes a position to their left as an extremist, a maniac, and an enemy of the party.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. As I noted in another thread, ridicule is what establishment types use nowadays instead of

assassination.

You see, the Dem establishment sees politics as a morally neutral team sport. If their side does something, it's terrible. If our side does or continues the same thing, it's wonderful, or at least we have a good reason for it. Or so we're told.

If you're not "a team player" in either the corporate world or Congress, i.e. if you don't go meekly along with everything the cool kids want, then you're treated as if you have cooties and made an example of.

(Cynical? Me? Damn right!)

[RollWithIt]

26. Dennis is standing up for getting NOTHING done.......

Precisely what he's made a career of doing. Nothing. He can stand by his "principles" all he wants but in the end what he stands for is nothing. All talk.

[eridani]

40. He's saying that I don't deserve to get fucked over by this bill

I appreciate it, actually.

[mkultra]

82. he saying you deserve to get fucked over more instead of less

[Chisox08]

89. Either way we are still getting fucked

[mkultra]

101. we will always be getting fucked.

Anyone who thinks differently is being polyanic.

[bvar22]

107. LOL.

So you support Obama's HCR because we are "getting fucked anyway."
Thanks.
NOW I understand HOW the "Centrist" Democratic Party escapes accountability to the Working Class voters.
We're getting fucked anyway!

[mkultra]

108. In a way, yes. Government will always fuck us.

If you do not agree with that, then i think you are stupid. Thus, any progress is positive. The way i see it, When republicans are in office, they drain the people, when democrats are in, we get as much as we can get.


Anything more is straight out of the commune.

[bvar22]

111. Nonsense.

I LIVED through an era when we had REAL "Democrats" who actually helped the Working Class.
THIS is what those REAL "Democrats sounded like:

"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens."---FDR

THAT is WHY I support Kucinich...because he still STANDS for those "Democratic Principles".

LBJ and those REAL Democrats gave us Civil Rights and Medicare.
Those were REAL Democrats.
Thats WHY I still support Kucinich, because he STILL STANDS for those Democratic Principles, unlike today's "Centrist" Party Leadership who are Democrats in name only...including Obama. (What a disappointment.)

So your claim that we will always be screwed by "government" is UNTRUE.
We will always be screwed by BAD government, and that is what we have with the "Centrist" Democrats.
That is NO reason to support them.
That IS a very GOOD reason for supporting Dennis Kucinich.
When Kucinich, and FDR, and LBJ are no longer welcome in today's "Democratic Party",
then neither am I.

[mkultra]

112. blah blah blah. You are an agent of the status quo and no more.

[eridani]

100. The Senate bill will make things much worse for me

I'm glad that Kucinich is fighting it.

[HughMoran]

27. If only he would stand up for the 'left' approach to health care

...perhaps he'd get more traction!

:rofl:

[FrenchieCat]

30. if you believe that the right approach to health care is to vote against health Care

than it ain't the right approach...I would submit.

[Armstead]

34. I'm all for health Care....And this aint it

This is still the insurance Industry Protection Act.

Mark my words(just like with NAFTA, financial deregulation and too many otehr "centrist" screw-ups) in five or ten years, we'll be looking back at this and saying "What were we THINKING?"

[ProSense]

38. Let's see if your mischaracterization measures up

"insurance Industry Protection Act"

...a bill that expands Medicaid for millions, reduces premiums for millions, ends rescission, cuts into the insurance companies' profits, gives people more choice, including a non-profit plan, and includes Sanders' state single payer plan, which unlike Kucinich's, provides funding from the federal government.

[HughMoran]

46. There you go again

stupid facts. :hi:

[Armstead]

52. A fundamental difference

You never address a fundamental question.

Your wonderful "subsidies" boil down to the fact that many taxpayers are going to be paying the insurance companies bill for other taxpayers, which will go into the insurance companies coffers. That's in addition to the extortionist insurance bills those same taxpayers have to pay for theor own coverage.

Why are we funneling so much money into insurance companies in the form of "subsidies" instead of just directing it to opening up Medicare or some other public coverage program? The same money from mandates, insurance rates and subsidies could go a long way towards funding real public health and an infusion into Madicare.

That's one reason I call it the Insurance Industry Protection Act.

[ProSense]

62. Yeah,

Your wonderful "subsidies" boil down to the fact that many taxpayers are going to be paying the insurance companies bill for other taxpayers....

Pretend this isn't happening now. Also, why would a progressive be against this?

Another thing you continue to ignore that the insurance companies will be forced to commit a higher percentage of every dollar to care and millions will become eligible for Medicaid, is that a fraud too?

[Bluenorthwest]

77. Fraud? Well all of our peer Democracies which mandate

that insurance be purchased from private providers make it a criminal act to profit from providing those mandated services. 'A higher percentage to care' is still a bunch of our money, spend by force of law, going to profits that simply would not be permitted in civilized nations that have been doing this for years.
But you insist that the profit is THE most important element, care is secondary, if it matters at all. Profit first. In Europe, that would be a crime. Don't know if they call it fraud. But they call it criminal.

[bornskeptic]

84. False. Dutch mandated insurance is provided by both for-profit and not-for-profit compsnies.

Here's what the former head of the Canadian Medical Association had to say about that:
<snip>
Q: Which country offers the best model for the United States?

A: A system like the Netherlands is interesting because it could work in your country. system is run by private insurance companies, six insurance companies. Some are for-profit and some are not-for-profit. It's not the government that is running the health care system, it is those companies. But they have rules. The first one is that it's compulsory to be insured. No company can refuse any patient. And if the patient is low income then the government will pay the premium. So the result is every patient is on the same level and has the same importance, because the money follows the patient. What they are doing is what they call "managed" competition. So as you can see, it's a bit different from what you have in the United States right now. But I was thinking it might work for you.
<snip>
Q: Would the United States be well-advised to adopt some of the Canadian ways of doing health care?

A: I think so. The most important thing for us is to keep our system universal. If it is one value that you want to import, that's fine. But it doesn't mean you need to import all because it won't work in the States. And it's the same for us. You have good things in your system. But we don't want to have your system here in Canada. This is why we went to some European countries, to look at something different. And the first value we were looking for is universal access.
<snip>

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Checking-In-With/ouellet.aspx

[eridani]

39. Mandatory shtty insurance is not care

And with the age discrimination the shitty Senate bill will make it HARDER for me to afford such care as I get.

[ProSense]

47. And bullshit hyperbole doesn't save lives. n/t

[eridani]

72. Tell it to the Sarkisians

Insurance companies have the incentive to take your money and not pay for care. Nothing about that will be changed by forcing everyone to be one of their customers.

[liberation]

99. ... and "hyperbole" doesn't mean what you think it means...

[NWHarkness]

32. Competence counts

In politics, if you can't get anything done, being right is meaningless.

[Armstead]

35. By your measurement, George Bush was an incredibly competant president

He got a lot done.

[DaveinMD]

37. he stands for getting nothing done

either we save the lives of thousands by making it easier for them to get health care or we don't. That is the choice right now. Pass the bill and improve it in later years. Just like we did with Social Security and Medicare.

[hulka38]

41. It's 180° the wrong direction

It's like saying in 1935, we'll get to social security by mandating everyone get private retirement accounts in the stock market.

[glitch]

43. Excellent analogy.nt

[DaveinMD]

50. it saves the lives of thousands

and is a decent first step. To do nothing is criminal.

[Armstead]

58. To do nothing IS criminal -- AND THIS BILL DOES NOTHING

It is nothing more than enshrining the role of private health insurance.

You like the present system?

You'll love it when people are forced by law to buy private insurance they can't afford, with no public coverage available.

[DaveinMD]

64. ending recision

stopping cost shifting and ending exclusion helps. As do the subsidies to insure people. As does the expansion of Medicaid and Bernie Sanders' expansion of public health centers. Its not near perfect. But it does some good.

[depakid]

96. Doesn't provide an adequate remedy

No adequate remedy = no practically enforceable right.

[hulka38]

71. Dave, if you want the current bill to be a first step toward a SS or Medicare

type program then




YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!

[David Zephyr]

45. Armstead, the vast majority here feel as you do.

The tiny minority of posters here who swarm threads and carry on are so outnumbered it is laughable.

Don't believe me. Make up a poll. Watch the results.

Your sentiments reflect the majority here. You can count the number of Kucinich haters as you blink your eyes. They post a lot. They insult a lot. But that's all.

[totodeinhere]

49. +1 n/t

[Armstead]

57. I hope you are right.

I'm getting sick of feeling like I wandered into the US Chamber of Commerce website by mistake.

[HughMoran]

63. Dennis and the C of C are both for voting against the bill

Bosom buddies.

[David Zephyr]

70. LOL.

The same screaming few voices. I find them amusing now.

[zulchzulu]

51. If you want to FAIL but feel "good", go with Kucinich

Nothing gets passed and the idea dies before it ever gets really voted on, but hey, you feel more superior than those who might actually have a realistic understanding on how legislation gets passed.

Mr. 2% in presidential races proves he can find at least a few suckers in the crowd. The rest of us know there is serious work to be done that has to go through this funny thing called the democratic legislative process.

Besides, Kucinich voted against the Public Option in earlier versions of the bill because he didn't get his pony. The guy is FAIL. Period.

The big hint to anyone with a couple brain cells left in their cranium about Kucinich perhaps being a certifiable asshat with an Napoleon complex is that fact that he is on record that he has had a personal contact with a UFO near Shirley MacLaine's house! Fucking Art Bell... give Dennis a call! How can anyone take this guy seriously?


:rofl:

[Armstead]

56. Who's the sucker?

You want to force people to buy private insurance, and pre-empt any form of public coverage based on actually covering people. And you call people who are against that suckers?

I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

[zulchzulu]

59. For Kucinich, the hundred of thousands who would be denied health care are the suckers

The pinhead is irrelevant anyway now that there are enough votes to pass with his UFO-contacted ass.

[Armstead]

60. People won;lt be denied coverage -- They'll just be charged through the nose

Great idea.

[depakid]

75. Acually claims and treatment will still be denied

and patients will still lack an effective remedy.

[bornskeptic]

92. There is no reason to believe that.

Denial of claims, like all the other abuses we hate, is very rare in large group insurance. The entire point of the current proposal is to make the equivalent of large group insurance available to everyone. Actually, in the great majority of denial of coverage cases the insurance company is on solid legal ground, because the policy was written with small print making the denial at issue legal. Under reform, all polies on the exchange would have to be approved by the government, so such deceptive practices won't be allowed. Since almost all individual insurance will be sold through an exchange, and subsidies will only be redeemable there, companies will have to be careful not to run afoul of the government regulators, as large group insurers need to be careful to satisfy the employer who controls their contract. But then you don't live in the US, so it's understandable that you don't appreciate the huge difference between large group insurance and individual insurance.

[philly_bob]

53. Dennis, when it comes time to vote, make an eloquent statement...

about the weaknesses of the bill -- but vote yes.

Don't vote with the Republicans.

Don't be a Nader!

[Cleita]

55. Yes, he is mainstream for what the Democratic Party used to stand for.

However, he's not the only Congressperson who wants to do the right thing so I don't know why he's being singled out. His vote isn't going to affect the majority anyway. They need 216 votes. I believe they have 219 votes without Kucinich.

[troubledamerican]

73. Next up on the agenda: DUers attack unions, public schools & advocate for privatizing Soc. Security

Oh, yeah -- wait a minute -- that's already underway too.

[Cleita]

78. Yep, that's being done too. n/t

[Moochy]

113. Big Tent Hater!!!!11111

:sarcasm: corporate democrats are people too?

[LWolf]

74. k & r for the best Democrat standing, bar none. nt

[Kltpzyxm]

79. But he might ruin our chance to "win"

Go team, or something!

I don't care if hundreds of millions of Americans have shitty or no healthcare that they are forced to pay for. As long as Rush appears to be unhappy then we are winning!

[krawhitham]

80. Dennis Kucinuch stands up for whatever will get him camera time

instead of believing the left spin, go look at his voting record

[suzie]

116. +1,000,000

[treestar]

81. This is politics, when you are part of a tiny minority you have to settle for

something you can get, unless there is a way to make a Supreme Court case out of it.

Health care is an affirmative thing that has to pass, so being all or nothing on it does not get anyone anywhere.

If you are in Congress you have to sometimes vote for what you can get, and only make the stands K. does if you are sure it will pass anyway without your vote.

I don't mind Dennis giving very loud voice to his principles, but we have to realize they are dreams for far in the future in the current U.S.

[freddie mertz]

83. I love ya Armstead. To the top!

[impik]

86. You're talking about the man who

voted against the hate crimes bill, the budget, the cap-and-trade bill, and financial regulation, right? Oh yea, he's the devil. He's no better than the party of No. And he sure is no progressive, as clearly he doesn't believe in progress.

[bvar22]

90. I'm standing with Dennis,

and as FDR said, "I welcome their hatred."


”Unlike the other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.” ---Dennis Kucinich

[ibegurpard]

91. Watch out for the next item on the agenda

Once they lock private for-profits into healthcare they're gunning for public education.

[Jennicut]

97. I think we need to talk about something else for a few hours, let alone a few days.

But hey, that is just me.

[neuvocat]

98. Kucinich accepted substantial contributions from the industry.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2009/06/-name-office-party-health.html

He may not be THE Devil but he isn't any better than anyone else he's demonized.

[Moochy]

122. Sounds like a bad investment if the health care lobbyists were expecting

quid pro quo...

[mkultra]

102. He's an attention whore. He's not the devil

He knows they will pass it now, so hes grandstanding.

[Armstead]

120. Maybe -- But better an attention whore than a corproate whore

[LatteLibertine]

103. Not doing anything

is too costly for the United States long term and we likely won't get a shot at this again for sometime. In addition, shooting down HCR will rob President Obama and the Democratic party of much of their power for the rest of his term. So if we don't get this done don't expect for much else to happen for the rest of President Obama's term and it will be much easier for the Republicans to return to a majority.

[burning rain]

104. It's curious that there's so much criticism of Kucinich for opposing the bill from the left,...

... with his one vote, and so little for the numerous conservative Dems who oppose it from the right. Or really, not so curious: after all, conservative Democrats are loath to criticize their own.

[NorthCarolina]

114. That is because these coordinated DK attacks are FROM the right. nt

[LWolf]

121. The criticism isn't coming from the left.

It's coming from the centrists who like to claim to be "left" because they are a little to the left of conservative republicans on some issues.

In reality, Obama is a center-right politician and has been all along. He campaigned on center-right policies, and his base of support comes from the center and right-of-center people.

It's also fascinating to see how many are willing to support center-right policies when it's a Democrat enacting them; the same folks that would be screaming if a republican administration did the same thing.

[ericgtr]

106. "it's not liberal enough" is a fucking terrible excuse

At least get it on the board and work toward changing it. Kucinich isn't standing up for jack shit except to make sure anyone who would get coverage from this bill is in the same boat they are already in.

Kucinich is the Palin of the Democratic party, only not as popular.

[Armstead]

119. It is n ot that it is "not ;liberal enough." It goes in the wrong direction.

The basic point which so many seem to ignore, is that this bill -- even with the "kinder and gentler aspects" is enshrining the exact opposite of what is needed.

It is saying that private health insurers are going to remain the base of our system WITH NO PUBLIC ALTERNATIVE -- probably forever.

For being given that power, they will have to play ball a little bit more. But not enloiugh to make a real diofference in a system that is DESIGNED TO DENY PEOPLE COVERAGE.

What part of that do you not understand?

[WI_DEM]

123. No, he's not the devil at all, but he isn't going to get what he wants and he should support

a plan that is a beginning and once it is passed it will be easier to improve it.

[Raineyb]

125. They're not going to go back to this. They're going to have their photo op

and move on to some other thing they'll not do a proper job of working on because they're catering to the blue dogs and expect the more liberal members to eat it.