The Final Word on "The Bow"

[Bonobo]

There are 3 depths of bows in Japan. Let's call them small, medium and large for lack of a better English term.

Small = 15 degrees

Medium = 45 degrees

Large = 90 degrees
*Note: Some may disagree and say the deepest is technically 45 degrees, but it is pretty clear that this is not the case as many go lower. Perhaps the 45 degrees is in "everyday situations" of which this is not one.


Here is a local politician showing respect to potential supporters




This is a guy at a wedding. A famous actor/entertainer came to his wedding and he was so moved to show his respect, that he went 90 degrees (notice also while shaking hands).

　　

From the many blogs I have read (in Japanese), some felt that he bowed too low, but the VAST MAJORITY were impressed with the show of respect and THAT folks is called diplomacy.

[itsrobert]

1. Yet, NO RESPECT returned in-kind

Correct?

[Bonobo]

2. Incorrect.

The Emperor bowed ever so slightly and besides, it's an "Emperor thing, you wouldn't understand".

On edit: Besides, what would it "get" us if Obama HAD been given a bow?

Do you understand what diplomacy IS?

[itsrobert]

3. I guess I wasn't born into being respected

Correct?

[msallied]

6. I think you're demonstrating bitter jealousy.

[itsrobert]

11. Think what you want

That doesn't change reality.

[babylonsister]

14. No, you weren't born Japanese, I'm thinking. It's part of their culture,

not ours. Doesn't mean we should ignore their culture; I'm glad the Prez bowed and showed respect.

[pnwmom]

37. When a culture is a monarchy, the antithesis of "All Men Are Created Equal"

then I don't think we should be making gestures that indicate otherwise.

[mkultra]

49. japan isnt a monarchy

its a constitutional monarchy. The emperor has no power and all power rests in the hands of elected officials. I'm surprised daily at the number of people on this board without a high school diploma.

[AspenRose]

55. Karl Rove basically said the same thing you did.

Heard it on Thom Hartmann.

[Bonobo]

56. Ouch, that's gotta hurt. Here's a response I wrote to that person, unanswered.

"Please take my word for it when I say that it looked very natural.

It is the way it's done in Asia. Particularly not the deep, deep bow he gave first, but the little bobbing, multiple small bows he gives after.

He looked like a duck in water. He looked in his element. Trust me. It is a better way to get along. Asia is all about getting along.

He was doing what Obama does well. He is a zelig, a shapeshifter, a man who excels at making others comfortable.

It is a gift and he is using it to represent US, to show that America is not arrogant anymore, to show that we want to be part of the world.

The ideals you espouse are fine. I just think you are misinterpreting and kind of missing the issue because you are seeing it through the fish-eyed lens of our own culture.

I really think you should try to understand what I am saying and what Obama was doing. Unclench. Your. Fist."

[AsahinaKimi]

44. As an Asian American

Born from both Japanese and Korean parents, I totally agree with you. In Japan it is the custom to bow, and if the bow is deep, it is totally respectful. This does not mean you are, as one person put it "kowtowing" to the ideology of a foreign nation. It is the respect due and given by both parties.

[AngryAmish]

He patted him nicely on his cute little head

[pnwmom]

36. "It's a President thing, you clearly don't understand."

Remember our Constitution? All Men are Created Equal?

That means we don't bow to anyone who doesn't reciprocate. If it's merely a sign of respect, then it goes both ways. Otherwise, it's a sign of one person's superiority and the other person's respect. And that goes against everything we stand for.

[Bonobo]

39. Backwards thinking.

As representative of the people, Obama is no better than any of us. Correct.

He is dealing with a foreign culture, however. In that function, he is a representative of the people exercising DIPLOMACY.

He is not there to make commentary about a sovereign foreign culture.

YOU are the one who seems to think that Obama deserves to be treated as if he is a monarch. He is not.

The Emperor of Japan IS.

You want to believe that bowing means that he is saying he is subservient to the Emperor. That is what it means to YOU.

It is NOT what it means in Japan.

What part of that is hard for you to understand? Not all cultures are the same, ok?

[smalll]

53. The President is a head of state. The Emperor is a head of state. They are equals.

Oh, but by the "reasoning" of people like you, he is not to be treated as a monarch, but "the Emperor of Japan IS" --

By the reasoning of people like you, foreign cultures, no matter how hide-bound, traditional, inegalitarian, unreasonable, brain-dead and injust deserve absolute respect. Bowing, even.

But our home-grown culture, the culture of the west, even though, in fact, it is far LESS hide-bound, tradtional, inegalitarian, unreasonable, brain-dead or injust than any other major culture in the world -- our culture is to be laughed at, pooh-poohed, and discounted.

Burn the flag? Go ahead!
Fail to genuflect to the Emperor of Japan? How dare you!

[Karenina]

60. It's SO SAD to see Americans who don't appreciate DIPLOMACY.

It is truly a fine art.

[VPStoltz]

40. So, what are you going to do, stand their until someone does something.

It's like kissing the ring of the clergy, they certainly don't reciprocate.
This entire argument is moranic.

[StarfarerBill]

43. We figuratively bow and scrape every day...

...to keep a job (providing we have one). How is the president showing a proper degree of respect to a foreign culture more humiliating to you or anyone than having to degrade oneself for pay?

What we should stand for is the dignity of everyone around the globe, regardless of position; instead, the world sees us as arrogant, bullying, and caring only about the bottom lines of our corporations...though President Obama, to his credit, is going some way in changing others' hearts and minds.

[Hamlette]

4. in our culture, we don't bow to the Prez

when you are in someone else's country, you follow their customs.

Or not. (Good luck driving in Great Britain)

All ask is he not hold hands with the Saudi. Creeped me out.

[itsrobert]

5. I lived 4 years in England

What was that thing about good luck?

[msallied]

7. I think he meant driving on their side of the road.

Seeing as how it's reversed in England.

[itsrobert]

10. Yeah, that's a safety issue

Correct?

[tishaLA]

51. We stand when the President enters the room, however.

[CakeGrrl]

8. Thanks for the information.

Good to know.

The President is a class act as always!

[smiley_glad_hands]

9. only a teabagger would have a problem with the bow

Or someone in the closet about their propensity to teabag.

[mkultra]

50. +1 this is a non issue

for everyone aside from post primary traitors and rw haters.

[jenmito]

12. K&R. I can't believe some here STILL don't get it! I guess those people have the same mind-set as

Bush and the neocons who believe in forcing OUR way of life/values on other countries. :eyes:

[Bonobo]

13. OMG, I just figured out who you are!!!!

We know each other. Hee hee.

At least I THINK so....
Can you guess???

[jenmito]

15. Wait-I DO know!

Does it start with an E?

[Bonobo]

16. No....

Wanna try again?

Should I give you a hint?

[jenmito]

18. Yeah...

give me a hint.

[Bonobo]

19. Uh...

Is your husband's name "Aki"?

[jenmito]

21. No...

darn. I just told my husband about this, swearing you were who I thought you were. I guess it's not such a small world afterall. :)

[Bonobo]

22. I have a friend

named Jenny Ito. I assumed that was you!

Jen Ito = Jenmito. NO??? Weird, huh

[jenmito]

23. It can't be me...

is your friend in a wheelchair?

[Bonobo]

24. Nope. Weird coincidence though.

I am sending you a PM.

:pals:

[jenmito]

25. It sure is!

OK. :)

[AsahinaKimi]

17. Japanese reaction to the bow..

http://www.examiner.com/x-16352-Japan-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m11d15-Japans-reaction-to-Obama-bowing-before-the-Emperor?cid=examiner-email

Japanese reaction:
# “What a bow!”
# “Such a deep bow from Obama, what a fine guy.”
# “I’m surprised he bowed. He’s really trying hard to meet the Japanese way!”
# “President Obama is a top-class person, isn’t he? Amazing!”
# “The Emperor is giving a nice smile!”
# “Is the Japanese Emperor really that special?”
# “The Emperor or the Pope, the President or the Prime Minister, whoever is greater is not something that I think can be decided objectively.”
# “I laughed because it was a much better bow than I had imagined.”
# “Obama’s huge!”
# “Obama has more of a true Japanese heart than most Japanese do.”

[Barack_America]

26. +1 nt

[CakeGrrl]

27. I'll take the word of those in the know on this! n/t

[Bonobo]

28. Now THAT is great diplomacy! What else can be said?

BTW, do you like Tokyo Jihen?

[vaberella]

57. Ain't that the truth to all of the above. n/t

[babylonsister]

20. Thank you for this info! nt

[AsahinaKimi]

29. I would like to add "dogeza"

Dogeza (土下座, literally to "sit down on the ground") is to sit directly on the ground and to prostrate oneself, bowing while sitting. An element of Japanese manners, it is used to show deference to the most highly-revered high-class person, as a deep apology, and to express the desire for a favor from said person.


This is still actually used in Japan today for deep apologies, favors and for praying for the dead. It was also used by the common people during the early periods of Japan, for the Samurai, the daimyo, the Shogun, and the Emperor.

[MineralMan]

30. Then, there's this:

I'd rather have Obama make a bow in Japan than for Bush to bow to the Pope. Thank you very much.

[Bonobo]

31. Yes, I certainly agree with that sentiment.

The Emperor of Japan does not influence hundreds of millions of people with his every pronouncement.

[AngryAmish]

33. Why?

Pope does not think he is god.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[akbacchus_BC]

35. Grovel, please bow and I'll donate! He he, am being funny, LOL!

[akbacchus_BC]

34. Nice, thank you. And from your perspective being married to a Japanese

woman, I am siding with you! The President did well!

[pnwmom]

38. This is what the U.S. stands for: "All Men are Created Equal."

One-way, non-reciprocated bowing goes against everything we stand for.

[Bonobo]

41. So we should force everyone else to be the way we are then, right?

I mean, anything less would be, ummm, untrue to "everything we stand for", right?

[pnwmom]

45. I'm not suggesting Japan do anything. I'm only talking about Obama. nt

[Bonobo]

47. I watched the video a couple of minutes ago.

Please take my word for it when I say that it looked very natural.

It is the way it's done in Asia. Particularly not the deep, deep bow he gave first, but the little bobbing, multiple small bows he gives after.

He looked like a duck in water. He looked in his element. Trust me. It is a better way to get along. Asia is all about getting along.

He was doing what Obama does well. He is a zelig, a shapeshifter, a man who excels at making others comfortable.

It is a gift and he is using it to represent US, to show that America is not arrogant anymore, to show that we want to be part of the world.

The ideals you espouse are fine. I just think you are misinterpreting and kind of missing the issue because you are seeing it through the fish-eyed lens of our own culture.

I really think you should try to understand what I am saying and what Obama was doing. Unclench. Your. Fist.

[msallied]

42. Your jingoistic, "America! Fuck yeah!" attitude is decidedly Bush/Cheney-like.

[pnwmom]

46. It's pretty pathetic when "All men are created equal" is considered jingoistic.

By a Democrat, no less!

[Bonobo]

48. Pls. read my post above

ans please read it in the spirit with which it was intended. Not as an attack but as a way to help you see from a different perspective, ok?

[mkultra]

52. no, your stance is jingoistic, not your RW catch phrase

which is always the problem with freepers. Not the ideology but they extreme way in which they push them.

Its fine to want a reciprocal bow, but to refuse to bow until someone else does first is truly jingoistic.

[vaberella]

58. I saw the pic. The emperor bowed. He didn't go all the way down. But he bowed. n/t

[Duppers]

54. I agree that what Pres. Obama did was respectful and politically correct, but

such a non-egalitarian society rubs me the wrong way.

Pres. Obama had no choice in the matter if he did not want to offend his host. He had to bow and I salute him for that (pun intended ;)).

My husband gave an invited talked in Japan earlier this year and knew, as any educated person does, that bowing is part of the normal greeting of the Japanese. Eager to please, he bowed to hotel staff, not realizing that his too-deep bow was not really prudent. They, then, felt obligated to bow even more deeply. A bowing contest ensued before he got the hang of this "bowing etiquette." :rofl:
If someone considers themselves in a "service class," the guest of the hotel or restaurant must not bow more than the head, otherwise, the poor staff have to keep bowing ever lower.

It is most certainly a "I'm-better-than-you" or as in my husband's case, "you're better-than-me" kind of thing.

Of course, most countries have some sort of "caste system," but the U.S. was founded on a different principle and openly fights against such things, especially we democrats.

However, "when in Rome....




on edit: I'm not trying to pick a fight, Bonobo. I agree wholeheartedly with your post #47.

[CJCRANE]

59. He is the *Emperor* in his *own* country

what do you expect him to do?

On edit: Replied in wrong place. I agree with the OP.

[Amimnoch]

61. There are a number of issues that I have problems when it comes to President Obama.

-His lack of action on getting DOMA and DADT repealed.
-Gay marriage Equality.
-Not moving NEARLY fast enough on ending Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm on the fence on some other issues like Healthcare... if it does turn out to provide affordable health care to the masses, then GREAT, but I am apprehensive that what is coming out in the bill will end up being a tax, where the proceeds go to greedy assed insurance companies.

One thin I definitely cannot deny about our President.. he has amazing statesmanship qualities the likes of which hasn't been seen in the Whitehouse in decades. He is amazingly articulate, and has great a superb speaking style. One of the things I definitely do love about him is how he is GREATLY improving our image in the world.. a very nice change from the last administration that did nothing but isolate us and get us stuck in 2 wars with almost no assistance from our allies at all because he was too busy pissing them off.

The bow... appropriate, not just because it was respecting the culture of the host nation... not just because the person he was doing so was a figurehead of that nation.. but also because the person he was bowing to was significantly older than himself, which in Japanese culture, respecting elders is the honorable thing to do.

It was a brilliant, and appropriate diplomatic move by a master statesman.

[Bonobo]

62. Excellent post.

And I agree with each and every thing you said!