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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:04 AM
Original message
"if that’s the acid test for a progressive president, then FDR, Truman & LBJ fail as well."
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 07:18 AM by Pirate Smile
Why Obama Disappoints the Left
by Peter Beinart



“Few progressives would take issue with the argument that, significant accomplishments notwithstanding, the Obama presidency has been a big disappointment,” writes Eric Alterman in a mammoth new essay about the constraints that supposedly make a progressive presidency impossible. Well, count me among the few. A law guaranteeing near-universal health coverage is more than merely “significant;” it’s the fulfillment of a century-long progressive dream. And the Obama stimulus bill lavishes more money on liberal priorities than anyone dreamed possible in the Carter or Clinton years. Yes, Obama is wading deeper into Afghanistan and yes, his record on civil liberties is mediocre, but if that’s the acid test for a progressive president, then Franklin Roosevelt (Japanese internment), Harry Truman (loyalty boards that hounded many progressives out of government) and Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam) fail as well.

In truth, every president disappoints his base.
“In the past few weeks, conservative and neo-conservative thinkers inside and outside the administration have reached a state of open disaffection with the Reagan administration’s policy directions,” declared the Wall Street Journal in 1982. To this day, many conservatives insist that George W. Bush wasn’t really one of them. The complaints grow loudest when a president’s popularity declines, as Reagan’s did during the 1982 recession, and Bush’s did starting in 2005. When a presidency runs into trouble, activists rush to deny ideological paternity.

But let’s take today’s progressive activists at their word when they say Obama has let them down. Let’s assume they had every right to expect that he would enact a public option, pass a cap and trade bill, emasculate Goldman Sachs, close Guantanamo Bay and get America out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Why has he failed? The answer, I think, goes beyond the filibuster rule that creates a de facto, 60-vote threshold in the Senate. It’s true that the filibuster is used more often today than during FDR and LBJ’s time, but back then, conservative committee chairman often kept progressive legislation from even reaching the Senate floor. And the answer goes beyond the influence of corporate money, although that clearly plays a role. The more fundamental difference between the Obama era and its New Deal and Great Society predecessors is this: Back then, progressives did not define the left end of the political spectrum. In the 1930s and 1960s, America featured honest-to-goodness alternatives to capitalism, home-grown radical movements that scared the crap out of the American establishment and sent some of its denizens scurrying into arms of reformers like FDR and LBJ. Because our entire ideological spectrum has shifted right since communism’s collapse, reforms that once looked like centrist compromises now look like the brainchild of Chairman Mao.

In the 1930s, some of America’s most prominent intellectuals saw communism as a serious alternative to Depression-era capitalism. (One reason so many writers and artists got in trouble during the McCarthyite scare of the early 1950s was that so many had flirted with pro-communist groups during FDR’s presidency). And while American communism never became a mass movement, the Depression years birthed home-spun assaults on capitalism that were almost as frightening. Louisiana Senator Huey Long, who would likely have challenged Roosevelt in the 1936 Democratic primaries had he not been gunned down, proposed capping the wealth any American could possess, and providing every family an income that was one-third the national average. Dr. Francis Townsend’s wildly-popular scheme for old age pensions made Social Security seem timid by comparison. By 1935, FDR faced almost as much grassroots opposition from his left as from his right.

Similarly, Lyndon Johnson launched his campaign for racial justice and a “Great Society” against the backdrop of an increasingly militant civil rights movement and beginning in 1964, a sequence of urban riots. Ultimately, African-American anger and violence pushed white America to the right, helping to destroy Johnson’s war on poverty. But between 1964 and 1966, when Johnson passed the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts, Medicaid, Medicare and Head Start, the realization that Washington faced a mass African-American movement flirting with radical alternatives to the political and economic order helped convince some in Congress that LBJ’s reforms were a safe harbor. In the mid-1960s, like the 1930s, a conservative-minded politician or businessmen could genuinely believe that if FDR or LBJ failed, something more radical would follow in their wake.

No one believes that today.
There are vibrant progressive organizations, from Moveon.org to SEIU, but they are part of the Democratic Party; there is no powerful grassroots movement that stands outside the two-party system calling for revolutionary change. No one believes, as many did in the mid-1930s and mid-1960s, that if presidential reform fails, blood will spill in the streets. From Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to Lyndon Johnson, American progressivism has historically occupied what Arthur Schlesinger famously called “the vital center,” a bulwark against the anti-democratic ideologies of both left and right. Except that today, powerful left-wing ideologies barely exist, and so large numbers of Americans can genuinely believe that Barack Obama is a socialist, if not a totalitarian. Luckily for them, and unluckily for progressives who want dramatic change, America no longer features the real thing.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-07-12/peter-beinart-on-why-liberals-are-down-on-obama/
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. This makes too much sense. I'll add that while we have...
a lot of problems now, we don't have the sort of acute crises that we had during the 30's and 60's that demanded immediate action.





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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. If you privatize social security you can look forward to it being worse in the
second term. If you get that far.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. You're over-reacting bigtime. Take a breath. Dems are not seriously suggesting this.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Look guys, I can read. You have to go no further than the morning's
Washington Post to see how they are framing this argument:

"The commission leaders said that, at present, federal revenue is fully consumed by three programs: Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. "The rest of the federal government, including fighting two wars, homeland security, education, art, culture, you name it, veterans -- the whole rest of the discretionary budget is being financed by China and other countries," Simpson said."

That is complete BS, and sets up Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid to be put on the chopping block.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/11/AR2010071101956.html
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Obama has already said how easy it is to shore up Social Security. I've seen him at town halls say
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:09 AM by Pirate Smile
social security is very easy to fix unlike other problems. Then he explains how everyone pays social security tax on every dime they earn up to $92,000. Most people pay it on everything they earn because they earn less then $92k - but Buffett, Gates, millionaires and billionaires only pay it on their first $92k. He then says you just lift the cap from the $92k or create a doughnut hole and begin reapplying the tax for earnings over $250,000 or $500,000 or whatever number you pick. Problem solved.

edited to clarify the doughnut hole idea.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I like that fix -
but I don't hear his commission (that he established by executive order if I'm to believe the Wash Post) suggesting such a thing. But, yes, I would be for that kind of solution to the problem.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. If the commission comes back with a more severe recommendation, as the article
demonstrates, that could provide the foil which helps pass a fix like the one Obama described. They could vote to reject a more austere plan but then pass one which raises the SS tax on upper-income earners.

What would Republicans do? Vote for the austere cuts? Vote for the tax increases on the wealthy? I know which one most Dems and the public would support but I think those options would give the Republican's conniption fits.

The article points out how important a foil can be to pass certain types of legislation by making it more palatable to the majority of the American people.

It would be much more difficult to get Democrats in Congress to simply raise the Social Security tax without having a worse alternative to point to at the same time.

Just an idea for where we may be headed.

The idea that Nancy Pelosi or Barack Obama are just going to slice and dice social security just doesn't seem to jive with their entire records and statements.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. I hope that happens,
thanks for your explanation. :)
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I hope that is what happens too.
:)
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. yeah, he says that in speeches while his catfood commission cleans off the surgical tools
and does all the savagery wanted by the deficit hawks Obama is still trying to woo into a *bipartisanship*.

Mission Accomplished - complete betrayal of the middle class, while claiming he's going to *shore up* what has already been allocated to war machines, elites, etc.

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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
57. only Congress can make changes to social security
the commission cannot do anything other than make recommendations. I'm not sure a lot of Congresspeople want to fall on their swords by eliminating SS. So I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard.
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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #57
80. Truth
Quote: "I'm not sure a lot of Congresspeople want to fall on their swords by eliminating SS."

That's the truth.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
106. No mention of military and debt interest spending?
Those are the two biggest tickets in the budget.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Obama isn't going to privatize social security.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. No, just reduce benefits, increase the age of eligibility
and perhaps add competing individual (i.e. privatized wall street hand out) savings accounts along with increased means testing of benefits, all in an attempt to avoid making good on the SS trust fund t-bills.
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joe black Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
84. And eliminate the mortgage intrest deduction.
Like when Ronnie Raygun eliminated the credit card intrest deduction.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I agree partially
You are certainly correct about he 30s.

I'm not so sure about the 60s. It was a decade of full employment and substantial economic growth. The US was at war but now we now fight two wars openly and a few covertly.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Well, back in the 60s the two big things were the war and civil rights, with...
not just King and his movement that was feared and hated by a large segment of the population, but that whole scary social movement of drug-crazed hippies preaching peace and love.

There were people back then who thought we really could be taken over by the commie pinko bastards led by Jerry Ruben and Ralph Nader. Black Panthers, Weathermen, Puerto Rican separatists and a few others were armed, occasionally made bombs, and did scare the crap out of a lot of people. Nowadays, Homeland Security would be on them so fast we'd never know about them unless there were Arabs involved, but back then things were a bit more free-wheeling.

Yeah, it wasn't as bad as the 30's, but there were big changes definitely in the winds, and some didn't like the idea.

Nothing like now, where all sides have to stretch to find a resonant issue to bitch about and hope the populace wakes up.



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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. ". . . hope the populace wakes up."
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:41 AM by TomClash
Very true. I suspect the populace is more medicated now than in the 60s, except the supplier is not your local dealer so much as your friendly pharma.

One might just say there was more liberty then. You're right - Homeland Security would be on them fast - it "keeps us safe." I wonder if we've lost much more than we gained.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. In this era, "Progressives" need to re-calibrate their expectations to reality. It mean "progress."
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 07:36 AM by RBInMaine
It does not mean "purity" and never has. We have a system that grants our Senate minorities great power, and the Democrats have a diverse caucus in this large and diverse nation. Far-left liberals do not occupy the majority of the political spectrum in America today. If they don't get real, they will be disappointed FOREVER. The likes of Nader, Kucinich, or Sanders simply can not and will not win a national election. Obama and Dems are a gift. They are accomplishing what is possible in today's climate. Good wake up call.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Calibrating expectations
As long as they keep their expectations in 1947, hoping for national health care, hoping for another group to be welcomed into the military, hoping that the Repubs don't take the next election, then progressives should be happy, right?. Progress is a linear thing, with mileposts and a view to more accomplishments in the future. It is NOT more turns of the exercise wheel, even if the exercise wheel now turns in a more favorable direction.

Compared to 1947, there has been NO progress in constraining the military budget and reining in American hegemony.
Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in regulating the banking sector.
Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in having an efficient public transportation sector.
Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in getting low-cost college educations to young people.

There may have been a lot of technological progress since 1947, but as far as social progress in the United States, the only thing we have to show is better race relations.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
72. What?
"Compared to 1947, there has been NO progress in constraining the military budget and reining in American hegemony." How many countries were we engaged in expensive hostile occupation in 1947? (Starting hint: Germany, Japan, Italy...)

"Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in regulating the banking sector."
SarbOx.

"Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in having an efficient public transportation sector."
Not in Portland, San Francisco, Atlanta, Boston (etc.)

"Compared to 1947, there has been negative progress in getting low-cost college educations to young people. "
Ever heard of a Pell grant?

Does your search engine only work on content from 1947?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. It is amazing the lengths that you'll go to.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It is a column providing some history and perspective. That doesn't seem like a bad thing or a
particularly extended "length" to go to.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
53. You should be banned
lol.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Ha
:D
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. America is just begging for a socialist revolution.
Remember when President Obama said oil drilling in deep waters had become so safe?

Remember when they declared the Titanic was unsinkable?

Every time someone declares an absolute certainty, something comes along to prove them wrong.

"Except that today, powerful left-wing ideologies barely exist."

Hmmm, be careful what you declare barely exists.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Kewl! Go start your revolution so some basic liberal stuff doesn't look so bad.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. Yes, that is why barely 20% of American people identify themselves as liberals
and this country will have a socialist revolution?
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. Really? Got any proof that they are?
:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. One would think that those here who reject Obama as a failure
would be encouraged by this article, which suggests there aren't enough of you.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Action both encourages and discourages
As does omission.

Most people and members of constituencies don't accept or reject a politician or officeholder on any single one (unless it's identifiable AND hits their personal interests hard)- but most people do see patterns over time.



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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. fdr, truman, and lbj failures?
i'm ok with that. at best they were the very best of the democratic party bone-throwers.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Seriously, it was only due to the strength of the communist party
in the 30's that FDR acted at all.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
40. i'm quite inclined to believe that.
but any party could only be a threat with massive discontent among the masses spurring it on.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
79. Yes, and if the republicans have any brains in their heads they are going
to strike a populist tone very quickly and toss a bunch of dems out of office this year. We are on a horrible downward spiral now and it didn't have to be this way.
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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Republicans really are clueless...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. Please. If FDR had handled SS in 1935 as Obama did HCR in 2010, we'd have private insurance
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 07:58 AM by leveymg
companies administering a for-profit system with staggeringly high costs.

Don't forget that HCR was essentially a swap of mandatory private coverage for 30 million primarily healthy younger Americans who previously didn't want it (or couldn't afford it) for supplemented coverage of 3 million poor without coverage, and most of them won't see anything until 2014.

So, according to Beinart and Alterman, if we don't like the rightward shift, and want to really impact policy, we need to start wearing Mao hats, form cells, go underground, and start shedding blood in the streets. Like that's going to get us anywhere, other than lined up in front of a wall in a full-fledged police state.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. The key is FDR didn't handle health care reform. Here's FDR on the 1939 amendments to SS
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:19 AM by ProSense
13. Presidential Statement on Signing Some Amendments to the Social Security Act --August 11, 1939

IT WILL be exactly four years ago on the fourteenth day of this month that I signed the original Social Security Act. As I indicated at that time and on various occasions since that time, we must expect a great program of social legislation, such as is represented in the Social Security Act, to be improved and strengthened in the light of additional experience and understanding. These amendments to the Act represent another tremendous step forward in providing greater security for the people of this country. This is especially true in the case of the federal old age insurance system which has now been converted into a system of old age and survivors' insurance providing life-time family security instead of only individual old age security to the workers in insured occupations. In addition to the worker himself, millions of widows and orphans will now be afforded some degree of protection in the event of his death whether before or after his retirement.

The size of the benefits to be paid during the early years will be far more adequate than under the present law. However, a reasonable relationship is retained between wage loss sustained and benefits received. This is a most important distinguishing characteristic of social insurance as contrasted with any system of flat pensions.

Payment of old age benefits will begin on January 1, 1940, instead of January 1, 1942. Increase in pay-roll taxes, scheduled to take place in January, 1940, is deferred. Benefit payments in the early years are substantially increased.

I am glad that the insurance benefits have been extended to cover workers in some occupations that have previously not been covered. However, workers in other occupations have been excluded. In my opinion, it is imperative that these insurance benefits be extended to workers in all occupations.


The Federal-State system of providing assistance to the needy aged, the needy blind, and dependent children, has also been strengthened by increasing the federal aid. I am particularly gratified that the Federal matching ratio to States for aid to dependent children has been increased from one-third to one-half of the aid granted. I am also happy that greater Federal contributions will be made for public health, maternal and child welfare, crippled children, and vocational rehabilitation. These changes will make still more effective the Federal-State cooperative relationship upon which the Social Security Act is based and which constitutes its great strength. It is important to note in this connection that the increased assistance the States will now be able to give will continue to be furnished on the basis of individual need, thus affording the greatest degree of protection within reasonable financial bounds.

As regards administration, probably the most important change that has been made is to require that State agencies administering any part of the Social Security Act coming within the jurisdiction of the Social Security Board and the Children's Bureau shall set up a merit system for their employees. An essential element of any merit system is that employees shall be selected on a non-political basis and shall function on a non-political basis.

In 1934 I appointed a committee called the Committee on Economic Security made up of Government officials to study the whole problem of economic and social security and to develop a legislative program for the same. The present law is the result of its deliberations. That committee is still in existence and has considered and recommended the present amendments. In order to give reality and coordination to the study of any further developments that appear necessary I am asking the committee to continue its life and to make active study of various proposals which may be made for amendments or developments to the Social Security Act.

link


Imagine if President Obama had handled health care reform the way FDR handled Social Security, excluding some workers?


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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. The original 1935 SS Bill was an old-age pension, but it covered about half of retirees from 1937 on
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:51 AM by leveymg
The original act also had unemployment and a death benefits. There were groups, primarily minorities and women, that were not eligible for benefits in the original bill. The 1939 Amendment was definitely a progressive improvement, as it came closer to universal coverage of workers. From Wiki:

Job categories that were not covered by the act included workers in agricultural labor, domestic service, government employees, and many teachers, nurses, hospital employees, librarians, and social workers.<12> The act also denied coverage to individuals who worked intermittently.<13> These jobs were dominated by women and minorities. For example, women made up 90% of domestic labor in 1940 and two-thirds of all employed black women were in domestic service.<14> Exclusions exempted nearly half the working population.<13> Nearly two-thirds of all African Americans in the labor force, 70 to 80% in some areas in the South, and just over half of all women employed were not covered by Social Security.<15><16> At the time, the NAACP protested the Social Security Act, describing it as “a sieve with holes just big enough for the majority of Negroes to fall through.”<16>


Surviving a series of court challenges, the SS system did not start collecting revenues until 1937. The first regular monthly payout was in 1940. Nonetheless, that is a very different from the HCR that builds upon an existing Medicare/Medicaid system. There is no real reason why it does not pay out benefits immediately, except to a very limited number of minor age beneficiaries who were not previously covered by Medicaid.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. "There is no real reason why it does not pay out benefits immediately"
Health care establishes high-risk pools this year to cover those currently being denied care, not just minors or Medicaid recipients. More than 21 states opted for the federal government to manage their pools.



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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. My understanding is that it doesn't fund said high-risk beneficiaries until 2014
So, if you don't have the money to buy into the high-risk pool in your state -- and the premiums could be $900 a month (see, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/01/politics/main6637337.shtml ) -- and subsidies for low and middle income people don't kick in until 2014, how does this effectively help you?
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
75. You can't put a new, massive, stable subsidizing system in place in just a few years.
Why can't people get that? This isn't just as easy as handing people magic money and saying "ok go get your healthcare". There is an entire infrastructure that is being put together to support the new system and the exchanges and the funding mechanisms that the whole thing will operate from. I know thats more critical thought that some are willing to allow themselves to engage in, but it really wouldn't hurt to try.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. There's already an infrastructure in place. It's called Medicare.
They could have simply have extended it to these same low income people effective as of the date of signing, and that would have taken care of the problem. But, that would have been single-payer, so they wouldn't.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Even had they expanded the existing medicare infrastructure, it couldn't be done overnight.
But yea, the votes simply weren't there, we don't have a progressive Senate, its a moot point. At the end of the day, subsidizing the purchase of coverage is the best we can get and that justifiably takes more than a few years to hammer out and get going.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Unfortunately it is an impediment
It was designed to be an impediment to universal health care, and that's exactly what it will do. It very clearly defines who is exempt from having to have insurance, and it is those who most need the help. People with pre-existing conditions that will generate the highest premiums, but have meagar incomes.

And it does little to nothing to address the problem of escalating health CARE costs, and actually sets up impediments to the government doing anything about that problem. Of course, that's what it was designed to do, 15 years ago when the GOP first proposed it.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. That was a well written article with plenty of food for thought
thanks for posting it.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Some decent historical perspective has been sorely lacking lately and is definitely needed.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
63. Brother, you can say that again.
And again and again and again.

Happy to rec
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. HIGH FIVE!!!!&*%#*!%*!
:sarcasm:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. Makes me very, very sad for the future....my future, and that of my children and their children
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 09:24 AM by BrklynLiberal
We have learned NOTHING..

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
* Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.

as well as the more famous...

* Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
33. Humans are humans


and they will do what humans have always done.

True revolt in America today is is suppressed because of long hours at work for the employed, the smoke-and-mirrors media, Xanax, pot, Bud Light and American Idol for the unemployed.


But how many just lost their unemployment benefits and won't be able to afford those things soon?

If the wealthy continue to eat away at all the jobs, safety nets, retirement, etc., Americans WILL do what every oppressed population has done or tried to do. They WILL revolt. And I have no doubt about that.

It would be really nice if the elite scum in this nation would take a long, deeep look at themselves and decide that a functioning nation is worth their $$$ contributions BEFORE we reach that point.

But the wealthy in this nation - as all wealthy before them - are bottomless pits of avarice. If their rich friends have no compassion or common sense, they can't see why they should have any either. They are idiots.

Many here will disagree, but I have studied history all my life and I firmly believe that the tipping point is heading our way soon if things do not improve. It's simply human nature, no matter how much the rich want to exist in this bubble of greed and indifference.

Let's hope the affluent wake up and smell the pitchforks.

Like the Mountain folk say: you don't hear the mountain lion until its fangs are imbedded in your face.






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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
34. Oh my! somebody who actually provides historical reference. It's true "progressives" in '34 & '35
didn't care for the direction FDR was moving and some wanted Huey Long!
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Yep. Huey Long would be very popular here and FDR would be a corporatist sell-out - not a traitor
to his class but their water-carrier.

There were a couple good posts on Huey Long and FDR not very long ago. I might look for those and post them here.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. LOL, it seems some things never change...
given some "progressives" today are prepared to sit on their hands instead of voting if the Dem candidate is not "left" enough. To me, that is the equivalent of casting a vote for the repub instead not unlike the '34 & '35 "progressives" wanting Huey Long.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
36. That's quite an interesting article
thanks for posting it here, I probably would not have seen it otherwise :bounce:
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
39. Perspective is always good, even in the face of blind hatred. Thanks for posting. (nt)
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Spread it far and wide.
:)
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. You bet.
:hi:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
43. Good points on how the situations are different
This meme is silly. This is not the Great Depression, we don't have 67 Dems, the Rs of that time were not as unreasonable and there was not the same kind of polarization.

:kick:
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. Posted a Diary on this over at Daily Kos.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. A bit of goal post moving
They always have to do this, in order to make his Health Insurance Industry Stimulus Package look like a progressive victory.

“Few progressives would take issue with the argument that, significant accomplishments notwithstanding, the Obama presidency has been a big disappointment,” writes Eric Alterman in a mammoth new essay about the constraints that supposedly make a progressive presidency impossible. Well, count me among the few. A law guaranteeing near-universal health coverage is more than merely “significant;” it’s the fulfillment of a century-long progressive dream.

Near universal health INSURANCE coverage is what we got. The progressive "goal" was universal health CARE coverage. That we didn't get.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. +1000 nt
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I wonder how the goal posts would have been perceived in 1935:
No self-respecting liberal today would support Franklin Roosevelt's original Social Security Act. It excluded agricultural workers -- a huge part of the economy in 1935, and one in which Latinos have traditionally worked. It excluded domestic workers, which included countless African Americans and immigrants. It did not cover the self-employed, or state and local government employees, or railroad employees, or federal employees or employees of nonprofits. It didn't even cover the clergy. FDR's Social Security Act did not have benefits for dependents or survivors. It did not have a cost-of-living increase. If you became disabled and couldn't work, you got nothing from Social Security.

If that version of Social Security were introduced today, progressives like me would call it cramped, parsimonious, mean-spirited and even racist. Perhaps it was all those things. But it was also a start. And for 74 years we have built on that start. We added more people to the winner's circle: farmworkers and domestic workers and government workers. We extended benefits to the children of working men and women who died. We granted benefits to the disabled. We mandated annual cost-of-living adjustments. And today Social Security is the bedrock of our progressive vision of the common good.

Health care may follow that same trajectory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081202575.html
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Regardless
One can't claim this satisfied any "progressive goal". Universal health insurance was not the goal. Universal health care was. Worse, this doesn't even establish the framework for universal health care. It establishes health insurance as an obligation. Without the public option, there isn't much way for this to evolve into universal health care. Worse, it very clearly establishes who is "exempt" from having health insurance and it is those with expensive health insurance costs, and low income levels. That combination will only worsen with time. Worse yet, it has no real health CARE cost controls, which means that health insurance costs will continue to climb at the unsustainable rates we have seen for the last couple of decades.

There is nothing progressive about the Cadillac taxes which would have impacted the middle class the most, and been relatively innocuous to the upper middle class. In the end, without the public option, there was nothing progressive about this at all.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. You don't think
taking the country from about 83 percent to 95 perecent covered is a progressive victory?

Like all other countries that have implemented universal health care systems, that percentage will climb when costs go down and other incentives and programs kick in.


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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. How is it a progressive victory when I'm going to lose/exchange
my cheap and accessible insurance for insurance that is more than twice expensive and I can't afford the co-pay to see a doctor? I'm not alone.

The democratic ship has hit the iceberg it manufactured and at this point, I guess all I can do is sit and watch it sink.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. "when I'm going to lose/exchange my cheap and accessible"
Maybe you should have started a campaign to support the wonderful and "cheap" status quo.

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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Yes, I'd like to know exactly what insurance you have that is cheap and accessible.
Accessibility and affordability are relative terms. What do you mean?
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Don't worry the pukes will come it and repeal it for you before it costs you a dime.
You'll be able to keep that cheap insurance. Enjoy while 30 million others get nothing.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Why would the GOP repeal it?
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:58 PM by cornermouse
It was originally THEIR plan. (hint: that should tell you something about how helpful HCR is going to be)
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. Me three.
If there is cheap and accessible coverage in existence, I'd like to get in on it as soon as possible... what's the carrier/plan?
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. No
Not when all it does is force coverage. It establishes purchasing health insurance as an obligation, without establishing health care as a right. Worse, it was based upon work done by the GOP 15 years earlier to try to prevent universal health care. It was a step backwards because it put an emphasis on health insurance profits, and did little to nothing to control health CARE costs, which is the primary problem we have.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Obama didn't campaign for what you say the goal was.
Thats the plain fact.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Nor is it progressive
The claim was that what he accomplished had been a progressive goal. It was not. Truth is, as Obama explained more than once, what he got passed was predominately a GOP plan from 15 years ago. It was one designed to block any universal health CARE from being established.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. You can characterize it however you want
what we got is basically what the 2008 Dem Primary sorted out.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. Not exactly
The 2008 primary sorted out that we wouldn't have mandates nor cadillac taxes. The mandates without the public option would never have flown in the primaries. What we got is 15 year old GOP plans to block universal health care. I'm pretty sure THAT wasn't what was sorted out in the primaries.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. True, But
both of those were part of Clinton's plan, IIRC, and had similar support from Democrats. The mandate was the only politically feasible way to close the uninsured gap without breaking the bank imho. Clinton was right on that. The cadillac tax is a type of progressive tax and I do not object to it. Without a doubt the public option is where we really lost. In my opinion we will get another shot at that before Obama is done.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Not in reality
One would think that a cadillac tax was progressive, but in reality, it wasn't. That was why they had to have the last minute negotiations with the unions. High value plans tended to be given to middle class, and blue collar, labor. It was in lieu of higher wages. There are tax advantages on both sides to such compensation packages. Very high value employees (top excutives) often don't have them because it is less valuable to them. Quite the opposite they often prefer high deductibles and donut holes and all that stuff, again primarily because of various ways of funding it on basically a "before tax" basis. Some of the richest don't have health insurance plans at all. They are just "self insured". They might carry some "catastrophic" plan, but only for the most expensive of care and costs.

Cadillac taxes were regressive, made less so by giving the unions time to negotiate their way out of them. Of course that meant they were going to have to "give up" the more generous plans. It is dubious they will get equivalent compensation in replacement.

The mandate was actually a bit silly. It's primary purpose was to avoid the "moral hazard" of people waiting to buy insurance until they were sick. There were alternative approaches. And without the public option, it merely became a give away to the commercial insurance companies. It's why Obama campaigned against it.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. If one is allowed to change the very core meaning
of progressive tax, then maybe what you are proposing would be valid.

Nothing is silly about everyone paying in to a social program that is meant to provide security for everyone.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. But that's not the cadillac tax
The problem with the cadillac tax, and what made it regressive, was that it disproportionately taxed the middle class as compared to the upper classes. That's a classic regressive tax, a bit like consumer based taxes. A progressive tax has the upper classes paying a more proportionate share of the burden than the middle and lower classes. There's nothing wrong with a broad tax to fund such programs. The cadillac tax isn't a broad tax. It is a narrow tax affecting predominately the middle class/blue collar workers. That's regressive.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. 1) You don't understand the definition
2) You haven't supported your claim anyways.

I think you are just being obstinate.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Progressive tax
What Does Progressive Tax Mean?
A tax that takes a larger percentage from the income of high-income people than it does from low-income people.



The cadillac tax in fact, as oppose to in theory, was not going to do that. It was disproportionately aimed at middle income/blue collar tax payers. Not the lowest of incomes, but no where near the highest either. The name made it SOUND
like it would, but those generous plans were most likely to affect union workers as anyone, which is why they had to negotiate last minute changes to give the unions time to negotiate away those generous plans.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. incorrect definition.
A progressive tax is a tax by which the tax rate increases as the taxable base amount increases.

When are you going to provide any evidence that it was aimed at middle income/blue collar? Because I don't buy that.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. It wasn't "aimed"
That was merely the ultimate reality. The name made it sound like it would affect the rich, but the most generous health care plans didn't go to the richest. Quite the opposite, the richest don't need generous plans, and in fact the most rich don't need insurance at all. Even Obama explained that the reason wasn't to tax the rich, but to try to get control of health care costs by forcing people to have more of direct connection to the cost of their health care. These favorable plans tended to be amongst blue collar folks, often civil servants, who gave up (accepted reduced increases) salary in order to have better health care plans. (There are certain tax advantages to do so for both the employee and employer, well when it's not the government).


And I'm curious what you think the significant difference, in this context, between the Forbes definition and the one you proposed? Basically a progressive tax says the more you make the more you pay, and in a proportional sense, not just an absolute sense. "From those to whom much is given, much is expected".
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. The significant difference is one tells "how it works"
and therefore is the more accurate definition.

Yes, this tax is supposed to help control costs.

Regarding who is impacted, if you could cite the source of your information it would be appreciated.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Um, you did see the negotiations at the WH right?
Edited on Wed Jul-14-10 03:17 PM by zipplewrath
I'm curious what your cite is that suggests this is progressive. Because the White House had to bring in the Unions to negotiate a way out of the more regressive nature of this feature. What makes you claim it was progressive? What is your cite for such a claim?


Oooo, I forgot:
"Another argument against the Cadillac tax is that it would unfairly apply to policies held by workers who are older, sicker or in higher-cost areas -- not just investment bankers whose plans include free gym memberships. But the Senate plan deals with this objection by pushing up the level at which the tax kicks in ($26,000 for a family plan) for workers in certain industries, including law enforcement officers, construction workers and miners. If anything, the risk is that too many occupations are being carved out. In addition, the thresholds are increased in the 17 highest-cost states by 20 percent in 2013, 10 percent in 2014 and 5 percent in 2015. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/11/AR2010011103585.html
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Your request makes no sense
are you disputing the definition of progressive tax that I shared?
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. to the regressive nature of the cadillac tax
No, I don't find your definition functionally different from forbes' in this context. You were the one suggesting that it was not a regressive tax and asking why. I'm asking why you think it is not, and if you have anything to support such an assertion.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Because the tax is 0 until the benefit exceeds
the maximum amount. This is clearly in line with the idea of progressive taxes. Employment benefits are generally accepted as another form of pay for employment.

In this case there were two goals, downward cost pressure on insurance plans, and revenue increase coming from those that have cadillac health plans.

I dispute your claim that it largely punishes blue collar/middle class because you haven't posted one single cite to back that up. Where are your statistics on percent "cadillac health plans" vs income bracket? Are you simply making that assertion because unions objected to it? If you had said unions objected to it because their members health plans fell into the "cadillac" group, I wouldn't have asked for anything more.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. The tax is disconnected from income
The tax is not based upon income, which is what makes in regressive. Whether I am poor or rich, or whether my income is large or small, it is based solely upon the value of my health insurance policy, despite my ability to pay. And in FACT, it affected the middle class (although not the lower middle classes) the greatest. The richest of us would not be subject to it at all.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. It doesn't have to be an income tax
to be progressive.

The other "facts" in your last couple of sentences are disputed and not supported by anything other than your assertions.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Bascally, it does
Health insurance is basically part of our compensation packages. As such, it is a component of income. Heck, the entire concept of the cadillac tax was to start taxing health insurance premiums as income. Currently, health insurance is not taxed at all. Heck, with HSA, income used to pay health costs can be on a pretax basis. The problem with the tax as it is structured is that in only looks at the price of the insurance, not the total income of the person. This tax would make much more sense if it only applied after certain total income thresholds were reached. And even then, the proportion of the tax should increase as a function of total income.

This tax is meaningless to the richest of people, and disproporionately affects the labor class (although this will diminish as the unions renegotiate their contracts to avoid it).
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Krugman on this
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. He doesn't dispute my points
In fact, to some extent he acknowledges them, which is why he suggests it should be "fixed". I agree with Krugman that there is nothing wrong with taxing benefits. But the "fix" is to connect the tax to the income of the person, not the cost of the policy. You can begin treating health care benefits as income, once certain INCOME thresholds are reached, not policy costs.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. nor mine. nt
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. I can read what ignored said to you. But no President ever achieves all of his goals
And certainly none ever achieve every aspect of all of their goals. If that is the standard that the Obama haters here are attempting to hold him to, then their obvious intent from the beginning was to brand him a failure. Furthermore, it makes no sense to even talk to someone like that.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. probably true
I am always thinking I can change someone's mind. Silly me.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
64. Who is Beinart? Let's look back at his credibility on huge issues:
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Typical right-wing enabler posing as a liberal.
No credibility, no accountability, no common sense, no true ideology.. just unlimited apologia for failing neo-lib/neo-con solutions.

Why am I not surprised to see the usual suspects out pumping this con-artist's bogus blather?
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. He's a very persuasive beltway fool.
There are many.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-10 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #64
105. Illuminating. nt
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
74. the author lost me when they suggested that the health care bill
has been a progressives dream for over a hundred years, who in the hell dreamt of a law forcing us to enrich private health companies?
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bobburgster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
76. Well stated.....
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
87. Kick
:kick:
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