I have a problem with Obama using the phrase "moral force"

[grasswire]

.....because that is exactly what he and his administration have abdicated by not prosecuting war crimes at the hands of our own politicians and those who do/did their bidding.

And that is tragic. A tragic missed opportunity to stand for the rule of law and human decency.

[Clio the Leo]

1. And mire Congress in a partisan witch hunt in the middle of a near-depression.

Sometimes you have to choose your battles.

[grasswire]

2. it may not have been a convenient time for Egyptians to choose "moral force"...

...over tourism. But they did.

Honestly, the idea that Americans can't prosecute war crimes AND rebuild the economy is quite insulting.

FDR managed to take on the Nazis and the Great Depression.

[Clio the Leo]

3. lol Bush/Cheney were bad but Mubarak...

.... really, really, really, really, really bad with no legit election to remove him from power.

Metaphor fail.

But hey, it's the weekend. It's to be expected.

[grasswire]

4. doesn't look like we had legit elections either....

...2000, 2004?

Take your argument to the tens of thousands of dead, maimed, ruined GIs, and the untold hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and all their grieving families. (How is that different from the crimes of Mubarek?)

Take your argument to the millions of Americans ruined by the looting of the U.S. Treasury to pay for a war built on lies. (How is that different from Mubarek looting the Egyptian wealth?)

[Smarmie Doofus]

12. +1 n/t

[sudopod]

9. I wonder how the body counts stack up?

I for one would choose Justice.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. So it is a selective sort of ethic taught by the 'faith'?

I mean, we sure hear about Obama's view of God having a strict as hell opposition to equal rights for minorities Obama does not like. The hypocrisy of people who shout against the liberty and legal standing of good people in the name of a religion which does mitigate politician's crimes, which has zero room for political gamesmanship, it is a hypocrisy too obvious to endure. God is very upset about gay people, but he's sanguine about torture and illegal wars?
Also, Clio, a 'witch hunt' is not the same as finding the guilty. Your choice of words means you think Bushco is innocent, that to investigate them would be like searching for a false place for the blame to fall.
So depriving gay people of rights over invisible creatures is not a witch hunt? What real crimes do you say we commit? We are treated differently. Because of a faith that says Bushco is condemned.
A faith of convenience is just an affectation like a Prada bag. Just like.

[grasswire]

19. A faith of convenience is just an affectation like a Prada bag.

Impressive turn of phrase, there.

[grasswire]

27. also: a system of laws of convenience is an affectation....

...and an insult to our founding principles and the very idea of democracy and liberty.

Equal justice under the law. What does that mean? Does Obama believe in the principle? Does he even understand it?

[Hawkowl]

20. Yeah, Nuremburg was a disaster

Stupid.

[Mimosa]

35. That's exactly what would have happened.

To prosecute members of the previous administration would have derailed Obama's presidency before it even got any place. Even if right, such prosecutions would have torn the country asunder.

There must be a God at least to dispense the justice which we don't see happen here on earth. Think about it.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. Right. Jeezus will punish them in the afterlife.

:eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

44. "witch hunt"???

The use of that phrase generally implies an investigation of people who are innocent or have committed minor transgressions. Is that how you'd characterize the actions of the Bush administration? Really?

[LeftyAndProud60]

5. oh please. NT

[pnwmom]

6. I have problem with DUers using the phrase "moral force."

If the only people allowed to use the phrase "moral force" are people who have never done anything morally wrong, then no one could use the phrase "moral force."

:shrug:

[Moral_Imagination]

7. grrrrrrrr

I'm outraged... OUTRAGED
:mad:

[DeSwiss]

8. I hear ya.

K&R

[udbcrzy2]

10. That's why he can't run the Huckabee (sp) ad

because he's soft on crime too:( Damnit !!!

[3waygeek]

11. You sure he didn't say "moral farce"?

That sounds a bit more accurate, IMHO.

[RBInMaine]

13. bitch whine piss moan.... It never ends. Not happy? Go run for office yourself.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. I promised my Dad I'd never run when I was 8. So no thanks.

There is nothing in our laws that suggests we can not speak our minds unless we run for office, in fact, such a concept is anathema to most Americans, who rightly speak their minds whenever and however they wish, cranky naysayers are of no concern at all.
The President is opposed to equal rights for my people on the basis of a religion which he is clearly following on an 'as needed' basis. The hypocrisy of that display is not very appealing. Bushco, innocent, blessed, Sanctified even. But teh gay? Oh, well, now it is time for 10 words from the Bible. Apparently the Bible does not apply to straights and politicians, you see, just to teh gay. Just for us!
A selective ethic is no ethic at all.

[polichick]

14. I've always had a problem with that phrase, since the U.S. is always...

...involved in a bunch of self-serving shit around the world. Moral force, my ass!

[southernyankeebelle]

17. You betcha friend. We lost our moral justice when President Kennedy was murdered. Then

with VN and young students being shot in Ohio State that is when I realized the america I loved was lost. Our country doesn't mind its own business. Now look at the world economy and how our country has helped destory others economy. I am not proud of our country in a long time. We use to be a good force in the world.

[grasswire]

18. If I were POTUS, I would be afraid before God to say those words

To praise the Egyptians for their non-violent moral force that bends the arc of history while tacitly condoning torture, terror, killing of innocent civilians, perversion of democratically elected leaders, meddling for oil, etc. --- that is tempting a knock on the head from the deities.

I thought while watching him that he hesitated when uttering that phrase. I hope he realized the sheer hypocrisy of it.

[Teaser]

23. If you were POTUS

k. whatev.

[boppers]

26. God.....? k.

[grasswire]

28. ok, karma, whatever

In my experience, people who lie with such impunity eventually get taken down by someone or something. George W. Bush did it regularly. Now he's reviled by most of the world and wanted for war crimes.

[boppers]

43. Let me know what the founders think about that.

They were enlightened.

[impik]

21. Tough.

[Teaser]

22. This post was boring

man I hope people start posting less boring OPs.

[Forkboy]

24. You could always just move along and not reply.

I mean, what does it say about you when you're posting in threads that you readily admit bore you? You must have other things you could do or read, no?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grasswire]

29. I see the kids have come out to play.

The ones who do not have enough experience or learning to understand the concept of equal justice under the law and what it requires of citizens and leaders.

[RollWithIt]

30. Move those crossbars a little farther away... bit by bit... no matter what success...

I'm simply tired of these types of posts. No matter what Obama does. No matter what is accomplished. There is always a complaint. Always bashing. Always tearing down. A meaningful healthcare law passed. A meaningful stimulus package passed. Don't Ask Don't Tell REPEALED. A massive pullback in Iraq (leaving a level of troops in Iraq that we station in S Korea.) There is no active war in Iraq right now. A detailed strategy in Afghanistan. Educated individuals understand that a pullback in Afghanistan, at this point, is impossible. And then there is that speech in Cairo. Where for the first time in history an American President visited an Arab country and gave a speech about REAL freedom and democracy.

Yet these people continue to bash him.

You think any of this happened with McCain in office. Or better yet, and I love her btw, if Clinton was President right now? You think she let Egypt fall? You think she gave any such speech in Cairo? That's not bashing, like I said, I love Hillary Clinton. I'm just saying history would be different.

[Swede]

31. Well put.

nt

[grasswire]

32. I don't see how your thoughts have anything to do with the fact....

....that Obama has claimed the mantle of moral force is able to bend the arc of history but has allowed torture, war crimes, rape, murder at the hands of people in his and previous administrations to go uninvestigated and unpunished.

Is it or is it not a fact?

[RollWithIt]

39. Troll...

You are.

[Exilednight]

33. You can't be serious.

A meaningful health care bill? Seriously? The only meaningful health care bill is universal health care. The current bill has three, maybe four, good parts, but it did nothing to address the core problem.

Obama did not repeal DADT, an educated person would know that it was the grass-roots effort that pulled him kicking and screaming to push for such a repeal.

As far as Afghanistan goes, well, let's just say you need to do a little homework. Read Ghost Wars.

What happened in Egypt had nothing to do with what Obama did or didn't say. We had plenty of news from Egypt, but Egypt had an almost total news blackout coming in. State run television was the only television on, and I doubt that showed anything that Obama said that might cause problems.

You might want to educate yourself about Iraq, too. We pulled out "combat troops" and replaced them with just as many military contractors. An army is an army, whether it wears our uniform or a corporate suit.

You claim that people are uneducated, but it's you who is uneducated. Do yourself and favor and read A People's History - then you will see the forces behind history.

Real leaders are rarely elected, and the last five presidencies prove it.

[RollWithIt]

40. Since I've been in Iraq.. I don't need to "educate myself"

You can sit behind your computer and pretend to understand Iraq. Simple reality, in 2009 the pullout commenced. I would suggest spending some time reading on this website about what is really happening in Iraq.

http://www.usf-iraq.com/

Did you expect a complete withdrawal from Iraq where we had no one there? If so, you don't understand anything about the world or the region. If you are saying Obama should have just pulled every single US servicemen out of Iraq in 2009 then you are basically saying you were ok with another 100,000 Iraqi deaths, Iranian dominance on the Gulf. I could go on and on.


EDIT: In no way did I support the original invasion of Iraq. I also didn't support the first FIVE FUCKING YEARS of US policy in Iraq. However, the reality on the ground is that Iraq can become a functioning democracy.

[Exilednight]

42. Again, you can't be serious. Iraq is never going to be a functioning a democracy. There's a joke

running around inside the Pentagon. It goes "within the next twenty years we will have Democracy in most of middle-east Africa, the only two countries left out will be Afghanistan and Iraq."

I don't know who you're trying to impress by saying "I've been to Iraq". I served there, too.

The 100.000 Iraqi deaths will eventually be all in vane. We can not stay there forever. Iran is not going to dominate the Gulf region. Iran is about as far as Iraq could ever get, but someone who really understands the region would know this.

Please, go on and on and enlighten with your "wisdom".

[Mimosa]

36. How could Hillary have given a presidential speech in cairo or anywhere...

since she is not President?

Don't you think her work as Secretary of State has informed the President?

The United States of America did not get a 'meaningful healthcare law'. Come 2014, the Affordable heath Act of 2010 will change some things. But there is no real reason to believe premiums will significantly decrease. There will then be 'tax credits' for premiums paid to the health insurance corporations. (Big deal.) In 2014 Americans will still be at the mercy of the health care industry which will still be able to take away our homes to recover costs for health care bill which some people can't afford to pay when they get a catastrophic illness. Do you know hospitals in the USA can take away our homes to recover money for health costs people can't afford to pay? Do you know some people will let themselves go without treatment and die rather than put their families through the hell of going broke? Obama did not use that bully pulpit. People were writing and emailing the Congress and senate reps in support of Medicare for all and/or the 'public option'.

[RollWithIt]

41. Sigh... troll

nt

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Accusing a long-time DUer of being troll is a violation of the rules.

Particularly obnoxious considering the DUer you are accusing is a donor and you are not.

[Odin2005]

34. The US has no moral force, we are the most immoral country on earth.

We are a country ruled by vicious sociopaths.

[Mimosa]

37. Oh, there are a few which are far worse.

Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe comes to mind.

[Odin2005]

38. Mugabe just opresses his own people. We murder millions in other countries.