Union Bashing with Morning Joe

[flpoljunkie]

This morning Joe Scarborough and his cohorts agreed that unions are, by far, the 'biggest givers' in politics.

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php">Open Secrets puts the lie to this.

Top Groups Making Outside Expenditures in 2010 Elections, Excluding Party Committees

The top donor was the U.S. Chamber of Commerce at $32.8 million. There are only three liberal groups in the top ten. Their total expenditures in 2010 were $37.1 million. Compare that to the total expenditures by just the top four 'givers'--$97.6 million--all conservative, with two run by Karl Rove.

[Guilded Lilly]

1. Yo Joe...

go blow.

(sorry Mom for the language!... but he is truly an arrogant, self-aggrandizing little piss)

[murielm99]

2. Thanks.

I printed that for my union husband to use.

[speltwon]

6. Except morning dipshit was right

Add up the unions in the top 10. They add up to more than the single highest non-union contributer. See my other post

[Oceansaway]

3. STFU dead intern Joe !....nt

[impik]

4. Assholes. Can't stand that weasel

[speltwon]

5. Actually, your cite proves his point - unions gave the most

I didn't see the shoe (blech) but he said unions were the biggest givers. According to the Open secrets site, the top giver was the COC with 32 mil. However, SEIU gave 17 mil, AFSCME gave 12 mil and NEA gave 8 mil. That adds up to 37 mil. So, at least based on those top 10, unions as a whole gave the most. No individual union gave more than the COC , but in aggregate they did.

If my arithmetic is wrong, then I stand corrected. But I don't see how.

[flpoljunkie]

7. Unions gave $37.1 million. Corporations gave over $125 million thru their front groups.

Check the chart again.

[speltwon]

9. Ok

I was just looking at the "top groups excluding party committees". Within that set, unions spent the most. I don't see any other breakdown, just graphs of aggregates. Clearly, unions did not spend 101 mill (assuming those below the top 10 don't add up to that much, which is entirely reasonable to assume). I don't see the breakdown of corp's, just a liberal v. conservative chart. Of course unions tend to lean liberal, but are hardly uniformly liberal.

I belong to a union, btw, and I WANT unions making expenditures for politicians that support our cause.

[flpoljunkie]

10. U.S. Chamber is just one of the seven corporate front groups, tho they're single biggest contributor

In this chart, only three of the groups are liberal and all are unions--SEIU, AFSME and the NEA. Their total spending is $37, 172, 920 vs the $124,446,826 expenditures by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and other corporate front groups. The unions are outspent by 70%.

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php

[speltwon]

11. I still don't see the breakdown

at your link, that you are referring to. I'm not disputing it, I just don;t see it

[ProSense]

16. Here:

The top 21 conservative funds:

US Chamber of Commerce...........................$32,851,997
American Action Network............................$26,088,031
American Crossroads................................$21,553,277
Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies............$17,122,446
American Future Fund.................................$9,599,806
Americans for Job Security............................$8,991,209
Club for Growth........................................$8,240,060
National Rifle Assn.....................................$8,116,087
60 Plus Assn............................................$7,096,125
Americans for Tax Reform..............................$4,140,044
Tea Party Express/Our Country Deserves B...........$2,772,405
Right to Life............................................$2,650,067
Revere America........................................$2,572,366
Center for Individual Freedom.........................$2,500,617
Susan B Anthony List..................................$2,486,709
Rightchange.com......................................$1,956,132
Super PAC for America.................................$1,633,786
New Prosperity Foundation............................$1,528,923
Kirkland, Robert........................................$1,502,402
First Amendment Alliance.............................$1,487,861
Americans for Prosperity..............................$1,322,060

Total..............................................$166,212,410



Now, the unions pulled out from the entire list:

Service Employees International Union ............. $15,795,194
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees ....... $12,631,170
National Education Assn ............................. $8,746,556
AFL-CIO .............................................. $3,790,641
American Federation of Teachers .................. $1,453,320
United Food & Commercial Workers Union ............ $352,421
National Assn of Letter Carriers ....................... $271,755
International Assn of Fire Fighters .................... $170,149
California Nurses Assn/NNOC .......................... $150,702
National Nurses United ................................ $116,345
Teamsters Union ........................................ $93,476
Laborers Union .......................................... $79,156
United Steelworkers .................................... $77,957
Office & Prof Employees Intl Union ..................... $65,864
Operating Engineers Union .............................. $57,561
United Auto Workers .................................... $53,154
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers ................. $48,388
Amalgamated Transit Union ............................ $37,955
Hawaii Government Employees Assn ................... $19,644
Hawaii State Teachers Assn ........................... $13,479
Carpenters Union/Northern California ................... $6,625
Painters & Allied Trades Union .......................... $3,416
San Mateo County Central Labor Council .............. $2,110
National Treasury Employees Union .................... $2,068
Boilermakers Union ........................................ $539
New York State Public Employees Fedn ................. $362
Communications Workers of America ................ $889,860
Intl Brotherhood of Police Officers ..................... $1,012

Total ............................................. $44,930,879

Can the BS be put to rest now?

[speltwon]

18. Right, but that wasn't the point

The point was that Unions were the largest contributer. This list supports that contention. 44 million > 32 million.

In brief, unions taken in total, or actually, the top 3 uniions (SEIU, AFSCME, and NEA) contributions are larger than any other single contributor (COC). I'm a proud uniin member. I have no problem with this. We SHOULD be contributing. And we are. Our contributions taken together are larger than the COC.

[ProSense]

20. Hmmmm?

"The point was that Unions were the largest contributer. This list supports that contention. 44 million > 32 million.

In brief, unions taken in total, or actually, the top 3 uniions (SEIU, AFSCME, and NEA) contributions are larger than any other single contributor (COC). I'm a proud uniin member. "

So you're arguing that the unions are the largest contributors because three unions outspend one conservative group?

I'm sure you're a proud "uniin member."

[speltwon]

21. I'm saying that facts are facts

Unions, specifically the top 3 contribute more than any single contributor. The largest contributor, besides unions is the COC. Why is this a "bad" thing?

It isn't. Unions represent millions of workers. They should be big contributors. And they are. And I could not care less what you are sure of, with your implications. I've been a union member the majority of my life and that is something I am proud of. Union workers built this fucking country!

[ProSense]

22. Spin is spin.

"Unions, specifically the top 3 contribute more than any single contributor. "

Let's get real:

US Chamber of Commerce...........................$32,851,997
American Action Network............................$26,088,031

Top two conservative groups: $58 million

Service Employees International Union ............. $15,795,194
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees ....... $12,631,170
National Education Assn ............................. $8,746,556
AFL-CIO .............................................. $3,790,641

Top four unions: $40 million

That means the rest of the unions contributed another $4 million while another 19 conservative groups (among the top 21) contributed $108 million.

[speltwon]

23. That's not spin.

It's a mathematical fact. It is also one that I do not find negative, even though I am sure that morning blech thought it to be so. Again, WHY is it a bad thing that unions contribute more than any single contributor? Why? Nobody has answered that. The COC certainly represents far less people than the top 3 unions do. So, on a per capita basis, it makes even more sense. Unions should contribute and they do. That is not spin.

[ProSense]

24. "It's a mathematical fact. " No,

it's spin. Three organizations do not equal one.

These two organizations are run by Karl Rove:

American Crossroads................................$21,553,277
Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies............$17,122,446

They each contributed more than any single union organization.

[jenmito]

25. And the winner of this sub-thread is....

PROSENSE! :toast:

[speltwon]

35. fortunately, truth is not decided by assertions w/o evidence

or a popularity contest.

[jenmito]

36. Unfortunately for you, truth is decided by facts which are NOT on your side,

regardless of how hard you try to play word games to make your case.

[speltwon]

37. I am speaking of facts. I am seeing the other side play word games

Amazing the way that works, isn't it?

The issue is this. Inarguably

1) Unions (note the plural) paid in 44,930,XXX (and change I don't recall the exact #).

That's more than the COC or any other conservative fund. Imo, that's a GOOD thing. I wish more Americans were unionized and that we had greater influence on politicians. Spin that any way you want. Them's the facts.

[jenmito]

38. Joe Scarborough tried to make a (false) point that unions, which are liberal groups (plural), "are,

by far, the 'biggest givers' in politics." That's false. The biggest givers, as shown to you more than once, are CONSERVATIVE groups (also plural).

[speltwon]

26. and nobody said three organizations= one

UNIONS is a word. If say UNIONS did X, do you think of an aggregate or ONE union? I think the former, because it's logical under the rules of grammar. If you refer to a specific union, you say AFSCME or NEA. If you say "corporations" do X, you are referring to more than one, are you not? You are entitled to your own opinion, although I am still not sure what it is. I am GLAD that unions contribute as much as they do. That's my opinion. You are not entitled yo your own facts, though.

[ProSense]

27. "Unions, specifically the top 3 contribute more than any single contributor. "

See your previous comment.

"UNIONS is a word. If say UNIONS did X, do you think of an aggregate or ONE union?"

Conservative is a word too.

Fact: Individual unions did not spend more than the Chamber of Commerce.

[speltwon]

28. Correct

And neither statement is inconsistent. ...

No ONE union spent more than the COC.

Unions spent more than any other group.

Those are consistent statements.

See also: Corporations contribute X. This does not imply ONE corporation. Apple contributed X. That means one corporation.

Unions conbtributed X. Multiple Unions. NEA contributed X. One union. And again, you still haven't answered the question. Is this a BAD thing? Imo, it's a good thing. I wish more American workers were unionized and unions spent even more (since they would be bigger) on these types of contributions. We deserve to be and are part of the political process. Again, workers built this country.

Unions obviously for example support collective bargaining. I would assume most corp's (not all) and the COC although not necessarily every member, not to. So we should be supporting our causes.

[ProSense]

29. Wrong

"Unions spent more than any other group."

What do you mean any other group?

What's a group? You seem to want to define individual organizations like the Chamber of Commerce as a group.

[flpoljunkie]

32. Only when 3 unions are compared to one corporate front group, namely the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

[flpoljunkie]

34. Try this link which lists all outside spending by various conservative and liberal groups

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/summ.php?cycle=2010&type=p&disp=O

[murielm99]

13. Good for them.

I don't see anything bad about groups who represent the people giving to candidates who are supposed to represent the people.

How is this evil? I think it is more evil that corporations are considered people, and we can't do anything about it. Many of these corporations give stealthily, through front groups. We don't see everything they contribute.

The repubs want to break the unions so that the Democrats have no money. They are trying to create a one-sided system.

[speltwon]

14. I agree

I want unions supporting candidates that support us. Are we a "special interest group?" Sure. We have a right to be heard,and to support candidates.

[jenmito]

19. Self-delete. n/t

[ProSense]

17. If it was true. This is RW spin

to justify RW spending.

[Champion Jack]

8. He's mad because there isn't a union for intern killers

[Peregrine Took]

12. LOL! n/t

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[olegramps]

30. Why would anyone watch those idiots? Boycott the program and its sponsors.

[polichick]

31. Joe couldn't find his ass...

...with a map and five hands!

[flpoljunkie]

33. Joe's like Tweety in one respect--they do not deal in facts, only their gut opinions

[TruthTeller]

39. Not the "Unions" the WORKERS gave

due to laws, the Unions did not give the money. They collected and held the money, then sent it on the request of members. We are not allowed to use union dues to finance campaigns. It is totally separate. I have to go and ask my members to donate every year and it doesn't come out of our paycheck. Then, the MEMBERS screen and recommend candidates to which the money is sent. It is always what is best for the cause (public education, public services). Unlike businesses, who can use their own money to finance campaigns to buy access and favors.

[flpoljunkie]

40. 'Outside expenditures' do not go directly to candidates, but for tv ads, etc.

Campaign contributions and lobbying expenditures are not the only ways that money is used influence public policy decisions. Outside groups spent $481,775,447 during the 2010 election cycle to run ads, make phone calls, distribute literature and engage in other activities to sway the electorate about candidates and issues. Organizations not directly affiliated with political parties accounted for $297,165,250 of that amount. A January 2010 Supreme Court decision (Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission) now permits corporations and unions to make such expenditures from their treasuries directly and through other organizations. The decision allows such activity to take place without complete or immediate disclosure of who funds such communications, preventing voters from understanding who is truly behind many political messages.

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php