I'm sorry, but I really couldn't careless about Bradley Manning

[BluegrassDem]

And I know I'm not alone. I'm sick of all the threads about this coward, making him out to be some sorta martyr. Is this really a man the left needs to anoint as a hero?

I have a hard time feeling sorry for him. I'm more worried about poor people, especially blacks and Latinos, who get railroaded in a racist justice system for crimes they didn't commit. They have to sit in prison for years for something they didn't do. I think that's torture. I'm more concerned about people like that that some douche who stole national security secrets. He should get tortured for being a dumbass. It's his fault. He put himself in this position. He didn't have to deal with racist cops targeting him for no reason other than the color of his skin.

[Duer 157099]

1. Perhaps you mean "couldn't" care less n/t

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Keith Bee]

80. Okay: If that kind of shit happens to YOU.....

...I promise not to give a fuck.

[Wilms]

2. The contempt with which they treat are own is the same with which they treat other nations.

It's the same treatment from the same source.

And they do it in our name.

[Kalun D]

3. Criminals

you are taking the word of known liars that Manning was even involved with anything

what's wrong with innocent until proven guilty?

why hasn't there already been a trial? Something this corrupt torture government doesn't want us to know?

guilty until proven innocent is the mantra of communism and fascism

is that what you want?

[Clio the Leo]

5. "guilty until proven innocent...."

.... the reality of almost every prisoner facing trial in America.

Bradley's just fortunate that his case has become a cause celebre.

[polmaven]

36. Taking the word of

known liars like that of Bradley Manning when he admitted doing what he has been charged with.

[Hamlette]

4. did anyone see the interview with his father?

very odd, he said Manning has never complained to him about his treatment.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/03/13/brian-manning-talks-to-pbs-about-his-sons-detention/

There are undoubtedly some problems with this story. Seems Dad sent Bradley to war because he was gay (piecing several different sources together) but still, I don't disbelieve him when he says Bradley told him he was not mistreated.

Could Glenn be our O'Keefe? Odd indeed.

[defendandprotect]

8. Generally, a son would probably not want to worry his father .. .but in this

case this sounds like a father who might be happy his son was being mistreated!!

[Clio the Leo]

9. wasn't that odd?

feel a little bit worse that the kid was forced to join the Army than I am for how he's been treated since then. A child should have unconditional love from their parent ... and I dont think he has that.

[Hamlette]

12. agreed, but it doesn't make sense to me that Bradley wouldn't tell dad about mistreatment

perhaps especially since dad "forced" him into the service.

Makes me wonder which side is fudging the facts

[Clio the Leo]

15. well, Manning DID tell his father about the embarassment....

... of having to stand nude in front of the guards.

I, honestly, am not clear on what folks are calling "mistreatment."

[Hamlette]

27. agreed

but that is not, to my way of thinking, the kind of mistreatment I thought they were saying he suffered. DOD said it happened once, there were no women around, and he had a blanket to cover himself.

I think this calls for keeping an open mind.

[leftynyc]

43. Was he over 18 when he enlisted?

If so, he wasn't forced into anything. If he had a problem with his daddy, he should have left home and gone on his way with his own life. Given all the other problems around, Manning having to sleep naked doesn't even register with me.

[JuniperLea]

48. He broke a vow to the military... he was GI

Government Issue... GI... they have their own laws, their own justice system, and what he did goes against all he swore when he enlisted.

At some point I wonder if he said, aw shit... I brought this all on myself.

I am, however, getting a slight chuckle at the outrage.

[vaberella]

30. Are you kidding me?! You're piecing several things together to make assumptions?!

If these things are true, wait until they come out. Don't help spread them.

[yurbud]

67. oddly, your source says dad believes he is being abused

[Tx4obama]

6. Manning ... now wears suicide-proof sleep suit

Obama told Bradley Manning's prison treatment is 'appropriate' as it's revealed he now wears suicide-proof sleep suit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x628547

[Bluerthanblue]

7. well, I do care about him.

And I hope that he is given a fair trial.

I have to agree with you that the constant threads being posted which sometime seem to be nothing more than thinly veiled opportunities to trash Pres. Obama, are tiresome.

[defendandprotect]

10. Think it's good you're making yourself clear about who you are and what you stand for ....

makes it easier to avoid you --!!

[abq e streeter]

11. I'll let your own words speak for you: "He should get tortured...It's his fault".

Then I guess you won't mind if the government locks you up and tortures you for a crime you haven't been tried and convicted of either.

[xchrom]

13. That speaks volumes about you. Nt

[donheld]

24. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Two points

1.- Hide thread IS your friend... works great for whatever bothers you.

2.- The treatment is way out of any standard in the US army, and if you accept what amounts to torture in this case, no matter what he did nor didn't do... how soon until that treatment becomes standard at your local police department?

You tolerate this at your own peril.

Of there is the third point...

This is forbidden under the UCMJ

[Azathoth]

34. "This is forbidden under the UCMJ" ... citation perhaps?

You've thrown out some proclamations; now perhaps you would be so good as to back them up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Go google that yourself

Suffice it to say punitive actions in pre-trial are NOT kosher. Move along now.

[Azathoth]

73. That's a cute little dodge

I think we can all assume you have no idea what you're talking about. :hi:

[JuniperLea]

50. This is getting closer to where our attention should actually be...

Finding out what the "standards" are and then railing against those in charge of the standards. If this guy is made the poster child, however, it dilutes the issue. If he broke a law, he should be punished. We should be focused on the punishment standards, not this person.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. The standards are getting violated

But standard makes a poor bearer. Trust me, faces are needed.

[cecilfirefox]

16. I have to concur...

Although I want the man to be treated decently and with respect- and I do think it is arguable that there has been mistreatment of him(with the only condition that the information available to the public is all 100% accurate, there very well could be things going on we don't know about), I can't really feel to bad. If anything, I'm more upset that he's potentially a gay person that did something like this. We had a nasty man slam the DADT repeal in the local paper and he actually cited Bradley Manning as an example of bad gay people- and that just burned me up.

The man is a criminal, hands down. He is not a hero, or a honored whistleblower. He released information for no purpose that I can possibly ascertain, its not as if he was saving anyone or if he was exposing something terrible. All he did was grab a bunch of crap and let it loose for reasons I don't think anyone has yet been able to fathom.

He's going to regret it for a long, long time.

[Shiver]

19. What exactly did he release?

I'll admit I haven't been following this very closely...

[KansDem]

71. He is accused of releasing information damaging to the US government and military

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6366218n

It appears our service personnel are murdering Iraqi citizens.

[nosmokes]

17. If you care about your democracy you should care a great deal about PFC

Manning and the inhumane and petty treatment he is receiving for trumped up reasons. Of course if you don't give a shit what crimes your government carries out, then go ahead and bury your head in the sand.

[BluegrassDem]

21. I don't believe he's being tortured anyway

Where's the evidence? It's not like they're waterboarding him. I mean, is he supposed to be treated like he's staying in the Hilton or something? It's a prison for crying out loud. If being naked is tortured, then most prisoners in this country are tortured I guess.

[phleshdef]

25. Because suddenly something we've done to prisoners for ages, out in the open, never hidden...

...something that no one called torture before is suddenly torture when the black President is the one in power when it happens.

[Jefferson23]

49. Educate yourself, it would help you form a coherent position.

Inhumanity at Quantico by Scott Horton

Bradley Manning, an American soldier under suspicion of having leaked classified and sensitive information to WikiLeaks, has been in prison since May, 2010. His conditions of confinement are increasingly strange and defy comparison with standards applied to the incarceration even of violent and self-destructive service personnel—and by all accounts Manning is neither; he is a model prisoner. Most recently, his captors acknowledge in the face of media inquiries that Manning is subject to a strictly enforced nudity regimen.

In response to concerns about these reports, Department of Defense spokesmen have insisted that Manning is “being treated just like every other detainee in the brig.” They have responded to questions about the enforced nudity regime by stating that “the circumstances required that his clothing be removed as a precaution to ensure that he didn’t harm himself.” But Manning’s treatment bears no comparison with that of other prisoners at Quantico, and the idea that enforced nudity is appropriate as a special suicide regime for a prisoner classified by the camp psychiatrist as non-suicidal is equally suspect.

Manning’s special regime raises concerns that abusive techniques adopted by the Bush Administration for use on alleged terrorists are being applied to a U.S. citizen and soldier. Classified Defense Department documents furnish an alternative explanation for the use of enforced nudity: “In addition to degradation of the detainee, stripping can be used to demonstrate the omnipotence of the captor or to debilitate the detainee.” Other documents detail how enforced nudity and the isolation techniques being applied to Manning can be used to prepare the prisoner to be more submissive to interrogators in connection with questioning.

Department of Defense General Counsel Jeh Johnson, speaking to the New York City Bar Association last week, acknowledged the concerns raised about Manning’s detention and stated that he had personally traveled to Quantico to conduct an investigation. However, Johnson was remarkably unforthcoming about what he discovered and what conclusions he drew from his visit. Hopefully Johnson is giving careful thought to the gravity of the deviation from accepted U.S. practices that the Manning case presents. Under established rules of international humanitarian law, the detention practices that a state adopts for its own soldiers are acceptable standards for use by a foreign power detaining that state’s soldiers in wartime. So by creating a “special regime” for Bradley Manning, the Department of Defense is also authorizing all the bizarre practices to which he is being subject to be applied to American soldiers, sailors, and airmen taken prisoner in future conflicts. This casual disregard for the rights of American service personnel could have terrible ramifications in the future. The recent dismissal and replacement of the Quantico brig commander may well reflect a critical attitude within the Pentagon towards the special regime for Manning, but more recent developments, including the regime of enforced nudity, offset that.

This weekend tens of thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators in Egypt stormed the headquarters of the Mubarak regime’s secret police in Alexandria and Cairo—flooding the Internet with pictures of the cells and torture devices used there. Leaders of the effort said their raid was undertaken to preserve evidence of the mistreatment of prisoners so that appropriate measures could be taken for accountability in the future. Around the world, the outcry against this regime of torture and terror is rising and fueling massive public uprisings–as we see today in Bahrain, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Yemen. This movement was spurred in part by WikiLeaks disclosures that helped lay bare the corruption and venality of these regimes. The brig commander at Quantico should consider carefully whether it is really wise to deal with a young whistleblower by using watered-down versions of the tools of tyrannical oppression with which regimes like Mubarak, Ben Ali, and Qaddafi are so closely associated.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/03/hbc-90008012


About the author:

Scott Horton is a New York attorney known for his work in human rights law and the law of armed conflict, as well as emerging markets and international law. He graduated Texas Law School in Austin with a JD and was a partner in a large New York law firm, Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler.<1> He "has advised sovereigns on the pursuit of kleptocratic predecessors."<2> In April 2007, he joined Harper's Magazine as a legal affairs and national security contributor, and he currently authors the No Comment blog at Harper's Online.<3><4> Horton has also written for American Lawyer,<5> "the Web's leading legal news and information network" and The Daily Beast<6> and has been interviewed on Antiwar Radio.<7>

Horton is an adjunct professor at Columbia Law School,<1><4> as well as a co-founder of the American University in Central Asia.<8> Horton is a former president of the International League for Human Rights,<9> and he recently contributed to a report which asserted, like most mainstream Western voices, that human rights standards apply to detainees captured by the U.S. in the War on Terrorism.<9> He "served as counsel to Andrei Sakharov and Elena Bonner, among other activists in the former Soviet Union."<7>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Horton_(lawyer)

[BklnDem75]

52. How is an article that has just as much speculation as the next...

considered 'educating yourself?' Because Horton is a human rights lawyer?

[Jefferson23]

53. Speculation? Read it again if you need to..why you're not concerned

about the disparity of treatment..I can't say. Horton is indeed a well respected attorney on human rights
and teaches at Columbia among other aspects of his work. He is not speculating at all.

[BklnDem75]

54. Has he visited Manning?

[Jefferson23]

55. Like I said, read the OP again if you like..your choice. Horton makes

clear the concerns from what we do know about Mannings incarceration. I have no idea what you perceive as concern
within this case and the ramifications of how it can impact our soldiers abroad. You have already decided he is a coward but I hope you realize Horton is not speculating and not overreaching either. His Op is quite measured re: concern for the rule of law...for all.

[BklnDem75]

56. His information is based on what we all know

He doesn't know what's going on inside, so any information he has is speculation. I did read the article and it sounds just like yesterday's articles and the ones before it. His credentials are irrelevant if he can neither confirm nor deny what's going on.

[Jefferson23]

57. I just leave it with you that we disagree with what is speculation and

what has been verified..I think you missed that..but whatever.

His credentials and reputation are most certainly relevant in this case.

[krabigirl]

63. Lol...

[JuniperLea]

51. People who break laws get punished...

If the mode of punishment is what we should be concerned with, using a law breaker to make your point seems foolish to me.

[KansDem]

72. Oh, not really...

People who break laws get punished...

While I applaud your sentiment, I can think of a dozen people who have committed crimes and who are walking freely now...

[ljm2002]

82. By your logic, then...

...we should only complain about how non-law-breakers are punished?

Do I really need to point out the illogic of your statement?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[avaistheone1]

29. +1

[Union Scribe]

20. You care so little you started a thread to proclaim your loathing for him.

Makes SO much sense. I didn't realize that was the proper form of communicating apathy on the internet. If you'll excuse me, I have to go start threads about Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan, and circumcision. Boy, not caring about topics sure is a lot of effort.

[hlthe2b]

26. Started two and posted on three, in just the past couple of hours...

Yup, I'd say you have him pegged. ;)

[Unvanguard]

22. NOBODY should get tortured--PERIOD.

Bradley Manning's captors are being gratuitously cruel to him, and have been from the start. Yes, he did something wrong. It doesn't matter: that does not justify his treatment, especially given that he has yet to be convicted of any crime.

[GodlessBiker]

23. Why is he a coward?

[avaistheone1]

28. The real cowards are those that violate the Geneva convention and the rule of law,

and who have already judged Bradley Manning and treat him as a criminal and torture him.

[Azathoth]

35. Making him sleep in unfashionable clothes is now a violation of the Geneva conventions?

Who'd have thunk it?

[treestar]

42. There's no violation of the Geneva Convention

[phleshdef]

46. There have been no violations of the Geneva convention in this case whatsoever. None.

[cali]

32. ugh. I don't think you have a clue as to how ugly and despicable your op is.

[truth2power]

33. He's a hero to me. YMMV. Whatever. n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

37. It's because he's connected to Wikileaks

Wikileaks and everyone associated with them (Assange, Manning, Anonymous, etc.) are sacred and divine as God here now, and all manner of nonsense will be posted elevating their lofty status of utter perfection in every way whether it even makes any sense or not.

And every single one who contributes to the hero worshiping silliness will vote for Obama for another term and wildly proclaim how necessary and right it is and condemn to right-wing troll status anyone that dares consider not voting or writing in someone else. Either all this about Manning will fall down the memory hole or nifty excuses will be made, like Obama is too stupid to know what was going on with Divine Manning's treatment or he was playing some excruciatingly intelligent game of warp drive 3-D multi-level super-sonic nuclear master chess that us mere mortals couldn't possibly comprehend.

[OwnedByFerrets]

38. Coward? You will never, behind your keyboard, have the bravery of this man

[phleshdef]

45. Funny. Manning's "bravery" included sitting behind a keyboard, grabbing a shit load of classified...

...documents and then leaking them to the entire world. Such bravery!

Manning is a disgrace who betrayed his oath.

[BobbyBoring]

58. Depends on where the "oath" starts

The first oath is to defend the constitution from "All enemies". A lot of what our military does violates this oath. Soldiers given orders to violate said oath have a pretty tough choice to make. I think Mannings conscience made his for him.

[phleshdef]

61. What in the hell does releasing a bunch of classified documents, documents that he himself didn't...

...even come close to knowing all the contents of, to a foreign organization with an agenda to expose government secrets, have to do with defending the constitution from enemies? Seriously? Is this place really getting THAT crazy?

[LanternWaste]

79. I ask that quite often when others disagree with my opinion

"Is this place really getting THAT crazy?"

I ask that quite often when others disagree with my opinion. It's quite self-validating to put it that way...

[OwnedByFerrets]

76. The US needs more brave souls, not cowards

who sit behind keyboards condemning HEROS.

[NorthCarolina]

39. You may not be "alone" in your disgust, but I'm pretty sure you ARE in the minority. nt

[myrna minx]

40. This thread is quite chilling. n/t

[treestar]

41. I just don't see why what he did is so wonderful

And why someone who leaks classified information should be held up as a hero. Makes me sick that people are so blind to that fact, apparently, or just hate the US so much they don't think we deserve the right to run the State Department and classify some of the information as necessary.

[sudopod]

44. 1) Work to divide the people against themselves

2) PROFIT!

[LanternWaste]

47. I should start a thread to enlighten everyone about that...

I couldn't really care less about marshmallow peeps. I should start a thread to enlighten everyone about that...

[frazzled]

59. Well, we should at least care as much about what goes on everyday

in our prisons and juvenile facilities. Nobody does. I just got this email today from Southern Poverty Law Center, to which I am a contributor. I'm less concerned about Manning than these kids (note: for video go here: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/forrest-county?ondntsrc=MBC110370FCE&newsletter=newsgen-20110311 ):


March 14, 2011


Dear (Name removed),

The video footage from a juvenile detention facility is shocking: A guard physically assaults a teenage boy and slams him to the floor. Another boy is hog-tied in his cell.

Violence like this is all too common in our juvenile justice system - and it's what we're working to stop.

Just days ago, we filed suit against Forrest County, Miss., to gain access to youths held at the county's detention facility and to stop the barbaric treatment they endure. In addition to the physical abuse, children have regularly been confined to filthy cells for 23 hours a day.


Our suit came after a TV station aired a leaked video from a surveillance camera. The county fought unsuccessfully in court to prevent the damning tape from being shown to the public. And when we tried to provide the children with federally mandated protective services, county officials barred us from meeting with the youths.

Our goal is not just to protect the welfare and uphold the rights of these vulnerable children, it's to bring about systematic reform to the juvenile justice system in the Deep South. The abuses in Forrest County are representative of an out-of-control, ineffective system that condones the use of violence. It's wrong - and it must be stopped.

Thank you for supporting our work and for everything you do to protect children in your own community. We'll keep you apprised of any updates in this appalling case.


Sincerely,

J. Richard Cohen
President, Southern Poverty Law Center

[Bluerthanblue]

74. I have to agree-

I think we'd do well to address the issue itself, not the personality.

The way our society treats the people who are accused and those who break the laws/rules is appalling.

It SHOULD be more than about PFC Manning- calling him a hero, and holding him up as exceptional really weakens the issue. It shouldn't matter WHAT one thinks about the individual, if it's ok to mistreat any human being, then it's ok to mistreat him as well. (which I do not approve of)

[CreekDog]

60. Good, I'm glad you are apologizing

you should.

[krabigirl]

62. Wow...

[beachmom]

66. I can't think of a more evil man than KSM, the 9/11 mastermind

who killed Daniel Pearl by beheading him. He was waterboarded over 100 times, and that torture became a stain on this country.

This is not about whether Manning is an upstanding citizen or a hero. Clearly, he broke the law and will need to deal with charges. What is at issue is his treatment as a prisoner. And the fact that a public official who spoke out on the issue was immediately fired.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. well said

[Jeneral2885]

68. I wouldnt say that

but yes as I mentioned in another thread, please dont say he didn't know what was going to happen when he passed the information, however important to Assange.

And he's lukcy there's no Official Secrets Act like in certain countries.

[Scottybeamer70]

69. If bluegrassdem ever

gets arrested, locked up, and tortured............let's remember to not care?....mmmmkkkk?

[Bluerthanblue]

78. your reply illustrates exactly what is wrong with our society-

if we believe something is wrong, it's only wrong until we choose to do it.

Who has won then? If you think the OP is responding in a way that people shouldn't, and then advocate adopting the same attitude in revenge, then what you are saying in reality is that THAT is the better way after all.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Autumn]

75. Perhaps you shouldn't click on those threads.

The stress is probably not good for you. They can be hidden quite easily. Or you can chose to not read them.

[truebrit71]

81. Sorry but the OP lost me at "He should get tortured for being a dumbass"...really?

REALLY? No matter what axe you have to grind, legitimate or not, THAT sort of statement is way out of order..