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Is Gaddafi worse than Mubarak?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 08:15 PM
Original message
Is Gaddafi worse than Mubarak?
Remember the days when Obama was accused of supporting Mubarak because he didn't act fast enough?

The President's diplomacy and statements didn't seem to be enough.

In Libya, the atrocities are worse. The President acts decisively and he's accused of all sorts of thing.

Human Rights Watch.

Update: The Security Council voted on March 17 to impose a no-fly zone over Libya and authorized the use of “all necessary measures” to protect civilians, with the exception of foreign occupation. In response, Human Rights Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth said: “For the second time in a month, the Security Council has defied expectations and risen to the occasion by making clear that all options are on the table to prevent mass atrocities in Libya. We hope that from now on, the Security Council will consistently live up to its duty to protect civilians in Libya and beyond.”

(New York) - The Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's violent crackdown on protests and his long record of serious abuses raise grave concerns for the safety of the civilian population in Benghazi and other eastern cities as the fighting in Libya shifts eastward, Human Rights Watch said today.

The international community, and especially the UN Security Council meeting on March 17, 2011, has a responsibility to use necessary and appropriate measures to protect civilians from large-scale atrocities, Human Rights Watch said.
"Libyan security forces' possible capture of Benghazi heightens concerns of more abuses as we've seen elsewhere in Libya, including killings and disappearances," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "The world should not ignore the serious abuses by Libyan security forces over the past month, as well as Gaddafi's demonstrated disregard for human rights over four decades."

<...>


Amnesty International

<...>

Have Libyan forces been respecting international humanitarian law?
Amnesty International is troubled by reports that Libyan government forces have been bombarding rebel-held cities and towns, including through the use of artillery. In a densely populated urban environment, artillery cannot be used in a way that properly distinguishes between civilians and fighters. Its persistent use in these circumstances violates the prohibition on indiscriminate attack.

There have also been unconfirmed reports that Libyan airstrikes directly targeted civilians or were indiscriminate. Amnesty International is still working to verify these reports. We have received worrying reports of ongoing shelling or air strikes in several towns and villages where civilians are likely to have been at risk, and which are effectively cut off from the rest of the world because telephone networks have been disconnected. There are serious concerns for the fate of the population trapped in these areas.

While the use of aircraft to attack military targets may be legitimate, attacking forces must adhere strictly to the rules that safeguard civilians. Under no circumstances can they carry out attacks which directly target civilians or are indiscriminate or disproportionate.

<...>

What is Amnesty International calling for from al-Gaddafi's Government?
Colonel al-Gaddafi must immediately rein in his security forces and end killings, enforced disappearances and other human rights violations.

He should disclose the names of all those whom his forces are holding and where they are held and allow international access to ensure their safety and well-being.

<...>

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Was anyone calling for Obama to declare war on Egypt?
Not that I recall.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actually,
there were a few calls for Mubarak to be assassinated. Some did want the U.S. to intevene militarily.

Eventually, the President's actions proved to be the best course.

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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank goodness.
"Eventually, the President's actions proved to be the best course."

We didn't need a third war before the fourth one.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. not from us here
:eyes:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Of course not. They were just generally saying Obama did not
do enough. That's the only point, is to find Obama wrong. They demanded "more" with no particularity. The point is to never be happy with whatever Obama is doing. That's the only goal of the Obama Obsessed.
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. gaddafi's gota go
nt
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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. People need to listen to these two groups

They are our eyes and ears. Anyone who is questioning the actions taken by the U.S. must not
be paying attention to the situation. Thanks for posting this.
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Mugabe has murdered many more of his people than Gaddafi
But He has no oil!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Egypt has oil
No military intervention.

It's the President's call.

Still, what are you advocating in Zimbabwe, a similar operation to Libya?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No
are you?

They're not among the top producers, but they have more than a "single barrel"

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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I am against ALL WARS....please make a note so you won't get confused
With $14,000 BILLION in national debt and $1500 Billion yearly deficits, we
are broke and bankrupt. It is foolhardy, stupid and bombastic to start wars
anywhere. I do not want us to go the way of Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain (PIGS).
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. So you would be OK with Gaddafi slaughtering people?
So long as we aren't involved, that would just be their problem. Right?

Yeah, somehow, I bet it would be Obama's fault.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. The Arab States support action against Libya
South Africa, Angola and the rest of the African Union are opposed to any military action against Mugabe.


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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Far worse
The fact that Mubarak stepped down rather than engage in a bloodbath against his own people alone is proof of that.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yes, much worse.....
Mubarak* is greedy and lets his people live in poverty while he lives in opulence, but not evil like Ghadaffi. The situations are different. When Egyptians began to protest, Mubarak didn't kill them. The police were on the people's side, so they wouldn't have killed people even if they had been given orders to do so. That, in itself makes the situations very different.

I think it's a mistake and intellectually lazy to lump all middle eastern countries together as if they were all the same. Libya isn't Egypt, Iraq, etc. There is no "one size fits all" method of dealing with them. I think there's enough criticism piled on Obama without blaming him for things he didn't do.

*Mubarak is no different than the small percentage of wealthy people in this country who write themselves huge pay checks and bonuses while the rest of the population struggles just to get by and then they complain about paying to much tax. Here we call it Capitalism...in Egypt it's dictatorship. 400 people in this country have as much wealth as half the entire polulation. Let that sink in.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
13. Rec'd. The hypocrisy is worthy of Republicans.
The only consistency is that if Obama does it, it's wrong.
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Bad Thoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. What would a no-fly zone do against camels?
Yes, it comes down to camels versus jets and bombers. Mubarak may have been as corrupt at Ghaddafi, yet the latter's anti-reform/anti-revolution efforts escalated into military action with actual promises of violent reprisals. Libya's oil is certainly a factor that makes it worthwhile for some countries to act, but need not be the single deciding factor. Egypt's military relationship with the US may have affected how the government responded in that case.
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