I'm almost certain Barack Obama would govern much differently in a 2nd term

[GameOn]

Why can't others see this? Most of his compromises are because he has to get a 2nd term to see much of his agenda implemented the right way.

[msongs]

1. candidate obama 2008 vs actual - and now candidate 2012 - action counts not talk nt

[Shiver]

19. Then why do so many people here support Kucinich so heavily?

He's practically the definition of 'all talk, no action'.

[Armstead]

22. Aside from his occasional lapses into crazyland (like impeachment) Kucinich' s positions make sense

I'm not wild about some aspects of Kucinich personally or as a politician, but the core of his ideas make a lot more sense than the "conventional wisdom" of the corporate centrist democrats.

[Shiver]

24. They do make sense, and I agree with many of them.

My issue with him is that he seems to be all talk. He has great things to say, but either has not the drive or the ability to get them done. He's one of 435 in the House, and that requires consensus and coalition building to get things done. The cynical part of me thinks that he says what he says because it will make him the darling of the left, and because he know most of what he wants would never pass Congress.

I'm personally not impressed by talk. I'm impressed by accomplishment.

[Armstead]

25. Yes but.....

The issue is not Kucinich personally. He is not a very effective doer in terms of legislation -- although he WAS very effective in organizing opposition to the Iraq War at the time.

But the problem is more systemic.

There are a lot of liberals and progressive Democrats in Congress and elsewhere who have great ideas and a real vision, but they are marginalized by the Elite Corporate Centrist Democratic Leaderhip Machine.

As a result, to do anything, they almost have to overcome their own party leadership as hard as they do the GOP. So -- without the backing of the Democratic Party as an institution, all they can do is talk and propose.

For example, in the healthcare debate, Kucinich presented a very detailed plan and analysis for a form of single payer health coverage that demonstrated how it would be less expensive than the present system, both for individuals and the overall cost of the system. But it was never even considered or discussed....Many other Democrats who also had ideas for improvements were also shut out of the process.

[Shiver]

26. Dangit

Why do you have to argue so effectively and coherently? It's one of the reasons I like you. :P

Kucinich is evidence, in my eyes, of one of the major problems with our side. Like Republicans, we overreach, going for things that cannot possibly pass or have support, from either the public or other representatives. Yes, we need all that awesome stuff now. But it ain't gonna happen. Progress happens in incremental steps, sometimes very slowly. Sometimes we get lucky and manage a big forward jump, but for the most part it's done in baby steps.

Overreach, and you invite backlash. Horrible backlash. Look at Wisconsin right now - Walker made a massive overreach, and it produced a massive backlash that's energized people across the country. The same thing happens to our side, even if people agree with us. It's the reason I'm not so upset about how health care turned out - we didn't get everything, but we made some progress. Some would even consider it a jump in the right direction, although it's more likely a small step. From there, if we keep things going, we can take further steps, even as they try to push us back. We have to walk before we can run, and after eight years of Bush, we've had our legs broken. We're still in the casts, but trying to get back on our feet.

I've often described myself as a 'liberal realist'. I know what we need, what we want, and what we should have, but I also know that it, like all great things, will take time. Kucinich, while his ideas are great and they make people cheer, overreaches on everything. It makes him the darling of our side, but it also makes him utterly ineffective at everything but firing people up. It's a sad reality, but it is reality.

Wow... that went on much longer than I thought, and I completely ignored that lecture on Gatsby going on around me. Just something I've wanted to get out for some time now. Hope it was coherent. ^^;

[Armstead]

30. Gatsby lecture? What are you texting from somewhere?

It was a very coherent post. Just a couple of things in response.

1)Despite my huffing and puffing on DU, I actusally am a moderate and pragmatic type myself. What bothers me about President Obama and the national institutional Democratic Party is NOT that they are moving too slowly. I realize we did not get into this mess overnight, and it'll take a long time to dig out. But what DOES bother me is that too often they are going in the wrong direction and/or strengthening the opposition by their complacency and glossing over of the real causes of problems.

For example, without going into the details, the Health reform that was passed, in my opinion, was not a small step forward. It was counterproductive, because it further enshrines the dominance of for-profit corporate healthcare, without even a modest form of public option....I would have preferred they start with a few smaller actions to begin moving in the direction of stronger regulation of insurers premiums and the beginnings of a social insurance system as an alternative.

That going in different directions -- including counterproductive corporate-friendly policies -- is the real problem IMO.

2) Also, I guess there is a hazy line between "overreaching" and raising the bar. In other words, if all people are presented with is tepid junk, they are never going to have actual alternatives or notions of what could be done.

Going beyond Kucinich as an individual...It's counter intuitive, but Sen. Bernie Sanders is even more radical than Kucinich, but he is at least respected and he does have the ability to influence things to some extent. I think that's because Bernie is more palatable as a human and he is also good at local politics and Congressional horse trading. He also pushed for single payer bill healthcare and proposed a bill for it....But the difference, IMO, is that after he made his point, Bernie also rolled up his sleeves and used his leverage to get more funding for community health clinics -- and subsequently pushed changes that actually is allowing Vermont to put in their own single payer plan.

This is a bad analogy, but -- while the Teabaggers may have caused a backlash with their own overreaching in the opposite direction -- they did hit a chord and have succeeded in pushing the GOP and the overall debate much farther to the right. It may actually backfire in 2012 -- thats a long way off -- but they have been successful in changing the terms of the debate.

In other words, I don;t disagree about the need to be pragmatic. But we have to be bolder and clearer than we have been for far too long.

[Shiver]

40. I was in my Literature class when I wrote the post.

I'd already read The Great Gatsby like, six times, so I've mostly been coasting through this unit.

1) Anyway, I agree with much of what you say, although I personally think the Health Reform that was passed is pushing us in the right direction, but I agree that a few smaller actions first would likely have helped. I'm not ready to get on his ass about dropping the public option, because I know we didn't have the votes, and I'd prefer something with a little bit of progress get through than fighting tooth and nail and then coming out with nothing. I agree that it was a bit too corporate friendly, but I may be a bit biased - one my best friends was able to get the treatment she needed because of it, so I consider the bill a win.

2) I agree completely with what you say about Bernie. I love the man, precisely for those reasons. He's more likable, and after making his point, works to do what he can for the people he can. I was going to mention Vermont and single-payer in my last post, but lost it somewhere in all of that. It was the result of long, incremental changes that have since snowballed into what they have now achieved. I may have my facts wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that's how Canada's health care system developed - it started in one territory, and then spread.

I get the analogy, but I see it a different way. The small steps method is what the right has been using for over thirty years, slowly shifting the spectrum itself so that what the country considers center is actually right-wing. What the Teabaggers have done is a massive overreach that may have shifted the terms of the debate, but also may have been the first step in exposing them. I'm holding my fingers crossed for the massive backfire in 2012.

Finally, bolder and clearer - agree 100 percent.

[TheKentuckian]

43. What "overreach" this train has been rolling down hill since before Kucinich was in Congress.

When was this last Democratic "overreach" and how many times have the Republicans overreached in the last several decades, were pushed back for a brief time, and then just went further down the rabbit hole.

The overreach argument is beltway nonsense because there is no practical evidence save in one direction and they tend to recover and keep on rocking.

[DURHAM D]

2. Disagree

[dennis4868]

3. I hope he does not govern.....

differently....incredible what he has been able to get done in 2 years against a congress that includes repubs looking to destroy him at evry step, DINOs who simply go along with the repubs, 24/7 fillubuster, spineless dems, and an entire broadcasting company out to destroy Obama as well and yet he has been able to get so much done in such a short amount of time....no other president faced a 24/7 fillubuster......

[GameOn]

4. Is it possible just to +rec one post? You get it. nt

[ProudDad]

34. Ray-Gun did...

Nixon Did...

Back then there were a few Democrats with character and a spine...

And a House that had some working class sentiment...

[enough]

5. I see no reason at all to think this is true. (nt)

[nevergiveup]

6. It depends on what happens with the Senate and House.

If the Republicans control both there won't be much Obama can do other than get out the veto pen. If by some miracle the Dems take both the Senate and House then I think we will see a more aggressive/progressive Obama as he will no longer have the need to court independent voters.

[jberryhill]

11. +Zillions

The varying time scales built in the Constitution are there in an attempt to prevent sudden veering changes, while preserving some measure of timely responsiveness to conditions.

The Congress Obama gets in a second term will be critical. We already shot one horse out from under him as an electorate.

[nenagh]

7. I'm on the fence on this one...

but I hope you are right...

[NV Whino]

8. !

:rofl: Leopard, spots and all that. :rofl:

[Recursion]

9. That's sad...

...and I'm an Obama guy.

He's like Reagan, though I don't mean that in the way the anti-O contingent does. He plays the long game, slowly, and manages to infuriate both his base and his opposition (Reagan was never really trusted by Reed et al, for good reason) while nudging lower middle class white males in his direction. His second term will be pretty much like his first: incremental changes that seem tiny at the time but will totally change the game a generation or so later.

[jberryhill]

12. That is his main objective, really

The problem of attempting to change politics into something other than a food fight, is that you have to quit throwing food, and provide an example that encourages emulation.

[ProudDad]

35. And as the Earth heats up

and clean water becomes scarce...

And the massive die-offs begin...

We'll be sooooooooo grateful for his incrementalism...

[ladjf]

10. I don't agree with this post. Obama, formerly a political unknown,

is now very known. He has come out of the closet. My prediction is that if elected, he will veer
even more to the right and offer even more support for the rich.

[Donnachaidh]

[phone] n/t

[ProudDad]

36. BINGO!!! (n/t)

[Carolina]

47. I totally agree

past is prologue and we certainly won't see any dramatic
change in Mr. No Drama

[bigwillq]

13. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[okieinpain]

14. I think he's done one hell of a job, and I really don't see any

reason why he should change his philosophy

[KoKo]

15. Clinton's second term was a disaster. The Repugs ruled and

Clinton went along with whatever they did. He had problems of his own. Bush managed to finish us off economically in his second term and extend the wars.

Why do you think Obama could turn back the clock on policies the Repugs along with many willing Dems have managed to institute in just the first two years of his first term. :shrug:

[Carolina]

48. exactly

Clinton's 2nd term gave us:
The Commodities Modernization Act (which overturned FDR's Glass-Steagall)
Welfare Deform
The Telecommunication Act

[jimlup]

16. I disagree...

Sorry but I think this is wishful thinking. Obama has shown us who he really is. I will vote for him but not enthusiastically.

[EC]

17. I happen to agree,

once he has nothing to lose, I believe he'll be stronger and more bold.

[craigmatic]

18. I don't see it. In the second term he'll be legacy building. It's pretty much the samething.

[ReggieVeggie]

20. Anyone who acts based on being re-elected

will not change that much given an opportunity

[zalinda]

21. He told us, in his first campaign

that he would do what he came to do, and if he was a one term President because of that, so be it.

zalinda

[Blaukraut]

23. It depends on the Senate and House makeup

If we lose the Senate and do not flip back the House, Obama is going to play defense for two years or more, basically getting nothing done other than (hopefully) wield the veto pen. Things might look different if we have control of at least one chamber, but judging by his current governing style I suspect he will continue in the same vein.

[COLGATE4]

27. Great example of 'magical' thinking. Disregard his actions during

the first term. 'He's really playing 6-dimensional chess'. 'Just wait - you'll see'. 'He's got your back'. Etc. etc. etc., ad nauseam. His second term will if anything be worse than the first one as he struggles to 'shape his place in history'.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mkultra]

28. Every president does

[Life Long Liberal]

31. I think the first term was OK. Better than any GOP candidate.

[ProudDad]

37. Yep, he was able to blunt more Progressive legaslation

Blow the best opportunity for Progress on Health Care and Economic Justice in two generations...

And promote and defend the "Permanent War Economy(tm)" and the "Corporate States of America(tm)" than any republican could have!

[Life Long Liberal]

38. I disagree 100%. But you can believe that.

[ProudDad]

46. You can disagree

but Facts is Facts... :shrug:

[Donnachaidh]

32. almost only counts in horseshoes dude

And others can't see *this* because they are strictly reality-based. :rofl:

[ProudDad]

33. I'll take that bet...

He's a corporate capitalist through and through and by training...

He IS NOT Progressive!

Why should you expect him to act out of character...

Unless millions in the streets putting iron filing into the gears of the machine, the FORCED end to the Status-Quo, force him to react differently...

[Fire1]

39. I seriously doubt it and not because he wouldn't want to. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

41. Why does he need a second term to see much of his agenda implemented the right way? nt

[hulka38]

42. You're shitting me.

[TheKentuckian]

44. When has such ever happened?

[Phx_Dem]

45. I hope not!

[Exilednight]

49. No he doesn't. Your first term is used to set the tone for your second term. Clinton didn't govern

any different in his second term than he did in his first.

We're not going to get a public option because the President is not going to back and visit HCR.

We're not going major financial reform, we'll be stuck with the attempt at reform we have now.

He's not going to close gitmo.

He's not going to do a lot of things that he promised to do because he already tried and failed.

[Autumn]

50. I'm not sure that would be the case.

I think he will move even more to the right.