Fuck Nader

[itsrobert]

Not getting over it. GORE 2000!

[AtomicKitten]

1. x 100000

[Kurmudgeon]

3. While I agree with the sentiment, that does create an uncomfortable mental picture.

[AtomicKitten]

58. *

:spank:

[DevonRex]

2. ITA. Fuck Nader. Nt

[sadbear]

4. As long as we blame Nader for 2000,

we absolve the republicans (and the Supreme Court) of responsibility for stealing it.

[Kucinich Feingold]

5. .

And the Gore losing his home state, which I think was what made him lose then Nader.

[Uncle Joe]

32. Or championing the expansion of the Internet for the people, which

brought Gore the enduring enmity of the corporate media resulting in an unprecedented, continuous near two year campaign of slander and libel by the established "Fourth Estate" which was enough to tilt the balance in Tennessee where the margin of error wasn't so large to begin with as it is in the more progressive, liberal areas of the nation.

The corporate media could never bring them selves to give the man credit for his legislative achievements, had they done so, Gore would've been President, but they preferred to eat his liver of credibility out of spite and hatred just as Zeus turned on Prometheus for stealing fire to empower humanity, for the Internet threatened their one way top down business model and monopoly on information, along with the influence, power and wealth that goes with that dysfunctional dynamic.

Nationwide the corporate media; morning, noon and night in one form or another proposed that "Gore actually claimed to have invented the Internet" that was a most prominent slander but it just one of many.

Here in Tennessee, the underlying message being that Gore wasn't really from Tennessee, he didn't grow up here and he was a product of Washington, while the corporate media as a whole did their best to trash his credibility and a critical number of the people became brain washed by this propaganda offensive.

The nation and to a large part the world has gone to Hell in a hand-basket because of this betrayal against the peoples' best interests by the corporate media.

[BklnDem75]

35. The Gore?

That's a new one...

[Moostache]

63. Amen...FUCK Tennessee! (or ARKANSAS?)

That kind of BS, horse-blinder history is dangerous.

Dissent from orthodoxy is essential to a vibrant party. If we tell each other that we must all head to the "middle" - ie. move to the RIGHT - then why bother? Just call everyone "moderate independent" and go along / get along....

[ChadwickHenryWard]

67. Exactly.

Ignore for a moment the copious amounts of fraud that the GOP committed, as well as the inherent flaws of the Electoral College system and having an election decided by a transparently biased court. Let's assume, just for argument's sake, that a majority of people in TN simply didn't want Gore to be President. Is that so wrong of them? Are they somehow wronging Gore, somehow depriving him of what he deserves, namely the WH? Do they not have the right to vote their conscience?

[Uncle Joe]

73. That poster wasn't trying to defend Gore, he's just trashing states in

the hope of creating more divisiveness.

[Moostache]

115. Spare me.

The idea that St. Al was robbed and THAT is what started the downward spiral is ludicrous. Was he robbed? YES. Was it also very much decided by the Supreme Court on hugely partisan bias? YES. Did Gore lose Tennessee (his own home state) and Arkansas (his former running mate's home state)? YES.

The Gore v. Bush decision was a travesty but the inability of the candidate to close the deal in his own backyard was the electoral college vote difference that allowed the theft in the first place.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Should have never been close enough to steal. nt

[FrenchieCat]

19. but it was......

[Jakes Progress]

90. This is the point that people keep ignoring.

How did Gore (whom I love) do so badly that he couldn't beat the ninny from the poppy's loins? Just how bad a campaign do you have to run to let the world's most obvious idiot get close?

[swilton]

16. Not to mention the Senate for not defending the disenfranchised

African American voters in Florida, and the Democratic Party who enabled if not supported Bush's policies in the name of unity.

Nader didn't lose the election - Gore and the Democratic Party lost the election.

[ElboRuum]

71. Let's not get crazy now.

Blame's one of those renewable resources we all like to talk about and there is plenty to go around. What you propose is an either-or proposition. To whit, you claim that if we blame Nader, we cannot logically blame the Republicans. This is simply not so. In this case there is no unitary cause, but in fact a dual cause, which had either of them NOT been in place, WOULD have resulted in Gore's election in 2000.

Had either the Republicans not engaged in election theft or Nader had kept his gadfly nose out of it, Gore would have been President. In other words, it was NECESSARY for Nader to have run to elect George Bush.

Personally, and you can take this for what it is worth, I think Nader is a very narrowly focused individual who plays at being an advocate for the "little guy". He got a little press once for being a pain in the ass of one particular car company, but really, I think that's the extent of it. I really don't think he really cares about the overarching political scheme of this country, regardless of any other intentions he may have. I think his running in 2000 was really just a bit of a self serving piece of drama to kind of say, "I'm here and I'm relevant". Not untrue, this. He helped the Republicans destroy our prosperity as a nation when, at the time, we were going in the opposite direction from where we finally, today, end up.

Granted that Clinton helped us get here with his free trade agreements, et al, but do you believe for a minute that Gore would have squandered our budget surplus at the time? Do you believe that gore would have ended up in Iraq of all places after 9-11? Oh sure, we'd likely have an irresponsible, politicized media, and some of the problems that we have now would ostensibly exist. But are you saying that Gore would have turned a blind eye to energy malfeasance and that we wouldn't already be traveling down the road to renewable energy? Would he have been so dilatory in the wake of Katrina?

Nader did his little part to wreck this country through his own bullshit self-promotion. It was nothing but plain straight EGO from every indication he's given. I don't care about what his intent was. Intent means precisely shit when you don't have the forethought to go along with it. I can intend any virtuous or altruistic end that I decide, but when I don't think it through far enough to see that this end is precisely what WON'T occur through my methods, I shouldn't expect too much in the way of forgiveness when something bad happens as a result.

I'm with OP. Fuck Nader.

[Hippo_Tron]

76. The difference is the presumption that Republican voters are mostly too ignorant to know any better

Whereas Nader voters are presumed to be well informed people who should have known better.

[trueblue2007]

106. i blame Gore losing TOTALLY on that jerk Nader !!!

[zalinda]

6. But it turned out Nader was correct about the 2 parties. n/t

[itsrobert]

7. Nope, wrong.

And wrong again.

[zalinda]

20. Really? I haven't seen much difference between the two

parties. With one, you had hope, before you were fucked. With the other, you knew you were fucked. Not much difference. Both only care about business, the little guy, not so much.

zalinda

[vroomvroom]

21. BINGO! nt

[Ikonoklast]

25. I guess you can just ignore the Supreme Court, then.

Look at how they vote, and who appointed them.

Then tell me both parties are the same.

[zalinda]

30. Yup, just like Clinton's Supreme Court helped Gore n/t

[SidDithers]

40. Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagen would disagree with you...nt

Sid

[ProudDad]

47. +1000

Case in Point...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x646943

[MurrayDelph]

8. Not me.

I wouldn't fuck him with Anne Coulter's dick.

[Wait Wut]

14. AAAAARRRRGGHHHH!!!

MY EYES!!!!

[craigmatic]

9. Don't blame him it was all Harrris's doing for creating those confusing ballots.

And it just so happened that bush had the highest name easiest to check.

[karynnj]

12. Harris did not creat them Theresa Le Pore did

Harris DID call for the creation of the felon list that had many non felons on it - and suppressed the vote in other ways. LePore was a Democrat, but her background was interesting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_LePore

[ReggieVeggie]

10. wasn't it Gore that told the CBC to stop?

wasn't he the one that gave up?

[ProudDad]

48. Yep... (n/t)

[sudopod]

13. *Knock knock*

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

17. +1000!!!

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Scribe]

22. From the guy with "tone down the rhetoric" in his signature.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

26. Fuck Lieberman and a milquetoast campaign.

Lame.

[That Guy 888]

27. I agree with you PassingFair, more than the original post...

which I think has to do with the article titled "Obama treats tax dodging GE's Immelt better than consumer advocate Elizabeth Warren by Ralph Nader" posted elsewhere http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x818678

[PassingFair]

28. With all the curtains pulled back, I think Obama's second term will be worse for working people...

than his first has been.

And he's fucking up our public schools
even FASTER than the Republicans could have.

Whooppeee!

[LAGC]

84. +1

Lieberman certainly didn't help Gore any.

[lame54]

29. Fuck Scapegoats

[Armstead]

31. Did this bubble up from the archives?

[ReggieVeggie]

33. This animosity should have been archived long ago

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Wish we had a smiley for a "high five" for that remark

This will have to do.

:fistbump:

[road2000]

34. The votes for Nader in Florida and elsewhere

helped make it easier to steal. That, coupled with the Diebold voting machines. To those who say it shouldn't have been close enough to steal: it wasn't. The same thing happened four years later in Ohio, don't forget. Neither election was that close. The Chimp's last elected office was governor.

And BTW, if Jesus had run as a Dem in Tennessee, he'd have lost. I'm with the poster above from Tennessee, who pointed out that the media skewered Gore as a product of DC. Remember the campaign video of the Gores at the family farm? It was deemed a prop. And the pig farm out in Texas was lauded as a homestate boy's desire to maintain his ties with the land... when his "land" was really Connecticut. Bah.

Nader has some of the blood on his hands. Maybe not all, but enough.

[ReggieVeggie]

36. so, the election was stolen or Nader caused the loss?

you can't have it both ways

[Bobbie Jo]

37. The election was stolen, and Nader was a contributing factor. nt

[road2000]

41. Yes, Bobbie Jo.

You said what I meant. The tricked-up machines did most of the heavy lifting in Florida, and the Nader votes helped, paving the way for Bush to appeal to SCOTUS (leaving out some of the steps, here, but we all know what they were). As a footnote to all this, I'll mention that I still run into people who were convinced by media hype that Gore sued Bush. I have little doubt that one of them would have been Mrs. Palin, had she even been able to name one SC case.

[ReggieVeggie]

42. so Democrats are at fault

for allowing an election to be stolen away from the American people and not doing anything about it

[Bobbie Jo]

46. There's a whole lot of "fault" to go around...

Nader gets his share.

[ProudDad]

49. And that share in any resonable analysis would be

about .01 %

[Bobbie Jo]

52. In your opinion, of course.

Reasonability, well that's debatable.

As long as we're sharing opinions.....FUCK NADER.

[ProudDad]

54. Well, if being obtuse works for you

go right ahead... :shrug: :rofl:

[Bobbie Jo]

57. Pot/Kettle, etc...

Do you actually read your own stuff?

Oh, and.....:rofl: indeed.

[ReggieVeggie]

53. by exercising his right to run for President?

If the election was stolen, as most claim, then it was up to Democrats to fight that.

[Bobbie Jo]

56. You said that already...

He still gets his share, as do the rest.

[ReggieVeggie]

59. oh?

do you hate Democrats as well?

[Bobbie Jo]

60. LOL

You mean as much as you?

[ReggieVeggie]

61. I don't hate anybody...you hate Nader

So, if he's a "contributing factor" the the Dems loss in 2000, do you hate the Democrats as well, since they were a much greater influence on what happened?

[Bobbie Jo]

62. Hoookay.

You got me. :rofl:

Besides putting words in my mouth, I'm not following you further into the weeds here.
You seem to want a Perry Mason moment....AHA! I don't do black and white thinking, so playing this gotcha game with you is pointless.

Suffice it to say, I don't have much use for Nader, he plays both sides whether his fans care to acknowledge it, or not.

[ReggieVeggie]

79. according to you

being a partisan Democrat

ANd I didn't put words into your mouth. I followed along with the implied and direct statements you made.

[Bobbie Jo]

99. Your inferences are just that....yours.

Doesn't mean they're accurate.

If I have something to say, I'll say it. I don't need an amature translator to tell me what I meant.

Some people take themselves way too seriously.

[ReggieVeggie]

101. ...which is the impression I get of you

by the by, it's spelled amateur

[Bobbie Jo]

104. Amateur.

Of course.

I'm certain I can spell "arrogant asshole" properly without assistance.

Edited for punctuation. :eyes:

[ReggieVeggie]

109. Sounds like you lost

keep digging

[Bobbie Jo]

116. Lost what?

An argument on the Internet with someone called Reggie Veggie?

Sounds like you don't have a response....for those keeping score, of course.

Don't quit your day job.

[ReggieVeggie]

117. I had a perfect response

You must not have read it

[Bobbie Jo]

119. Yeah...went right over my head.

I'm in awe of your sharp wit and clever retort.

As I said....some people take themselves way too seriously.

[ReggieVeggie]

123. Which is, obviously, you

since you can't seem to let it go

[SidDithers]

38. +1...nt

Sid

[Cali_Democrat]

39. Nuck Fader

[pmorlan1]

43. Need to get over it

Nader didn't cause Gore to lose. I wish people would stop repeating this silly claim. I voted for Gore, as did the majority of Americans who voted. It's not Naders fault that the Supreme Court shut down counting all of the votes and handed the election to Bush. Please stop trying to shift the blame to Nader. You can dislike Nader all you want but making silly claims that he cost Gore the election is just patently false.

[Dj13Francis]

44. Nader didn't cost us 2000.

That was Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, and the Brooks Brothers Revolution in Tallahassee.

They did eventually count the votes, even after the Supreme Court ordered them to stop. When all was finally said and done, the fact that Gore had more votes was completely irrelevant.

davidjamesfrancis.com

[ProudDad]

50. And don't forget the 90,000 mostly Black voters who never got to vote

thanks to Bush/Harris dirty tricks...

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Voter_roll_purge_in_the_2000_Florida_election

[ProudDad]

45. My, another useless knee-jerk post...

:boring:

[joentokyo]

97. For some bitterness and blaming are an addiction.

[nemo137]

51. I don't have a great opinion of Nader, but seriously, what fucking purpose does this serve?

[ProudDad]

55. I think the OP thinks that (s)he will get reasonable people mad

by making an entirely unreasonable, jejune statement of personal pique...

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lindsey]

65. Nader is w/o question the reason we had almost a decade of the

worst pResident this country has had to date. He's an egomaniac who puts his self & his selfish agenda before millions of Americans. In 2000, I went to what I thought was a meeting regarding protesting the so-called election (after the Selection of Bush over President Gore) and it was the frickin' Nadar supporters who were actually protesting against both Bush AND Gore. It was disgusting. I love DU but the BIGGEST problem are the Nadar supporters here who are causing so many problems. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE FIND YOUR OWN site. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. Once again D E M O C R A T I C Underground.

[Cameron27]

69. Some of us put

the emphasis on the underground part, which I hope means fighting for Democratic principles & not blind loyalty to party.

I used to hate Nader too, he was is such a handy little scapegoat, and those frickin' Nader supporters (all 6 of them) really get under your skin, don't they? Especially when it turns out they were right all along.

[ElboRuum]

72. I accept your reasoning...

So, how does Nader stand for Democratic principles? I am not a blind party loyalist, but Nader has never struck me as anything but a person who fell in love with his own brief media exposure and will do what it takes to stay in public view. Is that a part of our new set of principles?

[Cameron27]

74. I know what you're saying,

& there's a lot about the guy's personal life that's too murky for me to suddenly turn into a gung-ho Nader supporter, but what he's been saying about the 2-party system was right. I wore rose-colored glasses with the D label on them for way too long to see that the gap between the 'lesser of two evils' was closing faster than I ever thought possible.

[ElboRuum]

75. No argument there...

...I guess my issue is with the manner in which these sorts of issues get broached and when he decides to address them. One could argue the merits and disadvantages of the two party system at any time (plenty of fodder for discussion at any time of day, month, or year), but he always seems to chime in at the point where the Democratic base is in discordance with the establishment and I don't believe that this is any accident. Nader has made great hay for himself attacking the Democratic party, indeed, it may be why later generations even know who the hell he is in the first place (not remembering the Ford Pinto). My irritation with him is that it is this lip service where it seems to end.

I guess what I want to know, before I support a single thing he does or says, is what he wants out of all this, specifically and precisely. For years I have watched this little drama come and go, and I think he needs to level with everyone just precisely why he believes what he does has any value to the country at large (if any).

[ChadwickHenryWard]

77. Brief media exposure?

Nader was one of the major political figures in the United States for most of the 1960s and 1970s. He has a list of legislative accomplishments a mile long and has founded over four dozen nonprofit groups promoting issues such as consumer protection, labor rights, and the environment. He was one of the most influential figures of the 20th century, and whatever else you may think of him, to regard him as motivated by ego or a desire for attention is to be, quite simply, unacquainted with the facts.

[pmorlan1]

80. Thank you

Thank you for setting the record straight.

[ElboRuum]

81. Fair enough, but I'm in a pretty good mood right now...so...

I can accept that your view of Nader's influence differs from mine. I think you oversell his involvement, if only for the fact that when he involves himself in political issues, the timing, the content, and the tone seems to indicate a person stirring an already tempestuous pot. As I said upthread, he was and is notoriously silent in his views when the politics of the day do not favor his particular brand of involvement, which makes me question his purpose in the present day, regardless of any of his past intentions. He favors the winds of discord, and specifically when they blow ill within the Democratic party.

He may have been everything you say, but his present actions don't jibe with the saintly picture you paint.

That said, please, call me ignorant in so many words if you feel it is just to do so. I've been called worse by better.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

86. It's not my intention to call you ignorant.

However, the things that you are arguing are contrary to the facts. His activism has been constant since his first notoriety in 1965, and just because he isn't always in the news doesn't mean he isn't doing anything; his activism doesn't always have immediate media appeal. The vast majority of his efforts go completely unnoticed by both the media and by policymakers. If he is only it for attention, he's not very good at it.

And as far as imputing nefarious motives to him, all I can say is that he's not a Democrat. He isn't a member of the party and isn't obliged to work towards its interests. Sometimes he works with members of the Democratic Party, when individuals are pursuing the same issues, and sometimes he works against the Party; but that's his prerogative because, again, he's not a Democrat and doesn't owe them anything.

[Ramulux]

85. So you dont believe in democracy?

You believe that we should just have a permanent two-party system where any third party candidates who actually do well are automatically accused of being selfish pieces of shit. Ralph Nader is no more selfish or egotistical than any person who has ever run for or been president in the history of this country. Its shameful of you to accuse a guy (who has beliefs that do not coincide with that of the democratic party) of being a horrible person for not running as a candidate for a political party he doesn't believe in.

You want to get mad at someone get mad at the people who voted for Nader, Nader did not force anyone to vote for him he didn't threaten anyone, people voted for him because they agreed with his message.

[tekisui]

91. You are wrong. Just flat wrong. Nader was not the cause.

The repukes in FL and the Supreme Court are the cause. You concede in your very post that Nader voters were against Bush and Gore. Had Nader not ran, there is nothing to suggest that they would have votes for Gore.

[ReggieVeggie]

93. quite a few questions, actually

I think the reason Gore lost in 2000 was because of Gore. Remember who his running mate was?

[joentokyo]

98. The only people I hate are bigots and minorities. ;>)

[ChadwickHenryWard]

66. This shit again? Seriously?

I can't believe there's even a single person left who blames Nader for the catastrophe of the last ten years; not least because DU has had this discussion a thousand times before.

[myrna minx]

68. What? Are the hippies all out on a lunch break? Oh I get it - when

there's no hippies around to punch, drag out Nader! I'm still so angry at him for designing the butterfly ballot, allowing he legality of the Bush election co-chair of Florida also be the SOS of Florida, the Supreme Court decision, the Brooks Brothers 'riot', Gore's horrible Presidential campaign and VP selection, voter caging lists, a shitty media and well, just because!

Same as it ever was...same as it ever was...same as it ever was...

[They_Live]

70. I agree with all that you just said

...and I still can't believe that Gore conceded so easily.

I also can't believe this thread hasn't been locked or whatever yet.

[smiley]

78. yawn

yawn some more.

[Balbus]

82. I don't know who is more hilarious...

The "Fuck Nader" crowd or the "Stolen Elections" crowd. Maybe it's a tie. But it makes for some fun reading.

Keep it up! :thumbsup:

[tekisui]

92. You don't think the 2000 election was stolen?

[Balbus]

95. No.

[clixtox]

87. Nader is/was a hero, Gore, not so much...

Ralph Nader had NOTHING to do with shrub becoming president. If you are searching for scapegoats, those responsible for the worst US President of all time, unfortunately among a plethora of worthy contenders, here are the proximate perpetrators.

Blame Gore, for starters, he didn't even carry Tennessee!

Blame the Supreme Court. Gore lost the election by one vote, as it turned out!

Blame the inept Florida bureaucrats.

Blame the corrupted voting process, sabotaged by rigged electronic "voting" devices.

Blame timid actions to defend the rights of voters by Democrats, especially in Florida.

Blame the Democrats for colluding with the Republicans to keep Nader marginalized, while encouraging Nader's demonization to this day.

Maintaining the myth of Ralph Nader being the "spoiler" in 2000 obviously serves the Democratic Party's interests, which is why so many continue to believe this example of "conventional wisdom", despite it being, on examination, nonsense, although very effective as self-serving propaganda.

Blame the Democrat's astounding hubris, believing, apparently, that they are somehow owed the support and votes of true progressives, patriots and lovers of liberty. The Democrats count on our support while beholden, and in service, to their/our corporate masters.

Of course there are differences between the Democrats and the Republicans!

Otherwise they couldn't fool anyone...

[ProudDad]

88. It's interesting that this obviously unnecessary and

inflammatory thread didn't get locked... :shrug:

[Cherchez la Femme]

89. Very interesting

Nor did this one http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x647472

[ReggieVeggie]

94. not a problem

as long as the thread didn't say Fuck Hillary or Fuck Obama

[joentokyo]

96. So it is Nader's fault? What about the fabulous Supremes?

[SkyDaddy7]

100. +10000

I seriously do cuss Nader on almost a daily basis!

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PurityOfEssence]

103. Gore brought it upon himself

Yes, without Nader, Florida would never have been close enough to steal.

It's hard to slag a for-the-most-part good guy, but he was cowed by the reactionaries into distancing himself from Clinton and thus losing the race. He didn't fight back when being lied about, he didn't utilize Clinton's help for campaigning, which would have at least probably given him Arkansas. He brought that pissy little pantywaist Lieberman onto the ticket PRECISELY because he had been the first major Democrat to wag his prissy little finger at Bill Clinton.

He gave a pathetic fight in Florida, starting off with a tactical blunder from which he never recovered. By only contesting 4 counties and doing the general "nice guy" Democratic polite thing, he made it look like he was playing tricks and just picking and choosing. Then, step by step, he let them fuck us all over by not putting up much of a fight.

Yes, Nader not being there would have given us the election, but the inherent casualness with which Democrats run elections should have been the real lesson there, and it was apparently never learned. Republicans will call us socialists and thieves and we will timidly say that they might be a bit mistaken in their policies. They go for the throat and we offer polite rebuttals.

[Logical]

105. Well, not sure how I feel about this still. To bad a 3rd party is not viable. n-t

[HopeHoops]

107. No thank you. He's not my type.

[johan helge]

108. The Nader supporters should take responsibility for what they did

Every time this is a topic, the Naderites blame the Supreme Court, Republican dirty tricks, etc. But the simple truth is that Gore would probably not have lost, had it not been for Nader. The Naderites should simply say they are sorry for what they did.

[ReggieVeggie]

110. 90,000 African-American votes denied in Florida

538 would have done the trick. Don't Democrats demand accountability?

[johan helge]

113. There are many reasons Gore lost - Nader being one of them

You can say that Gore would have won, had it not been for X. There are many Xs - the 90 000 voters, Nader etc. But that there are many Xs, does not mean that Nader is not an X. He's just another X.

[ReggieVeggie]

118. That lets a huge burden off of the party running for that election

their political power and influence, their political responsibilities, the candidates, their responsibilities. Nader ran for president; being Democrats you shouldn't have anything against that. Republicans disanfranchised African-Americans in Florida, they pushed and shoved, they stole the election and the Democrats did nothing. Again, if most Democrats had as much anger for the party being mostly responsible as it does for Nader who is insignificantly responsible, something might have been done about this long ago.

[johan helge]

120. The "Democrats did nothing"?

As far as I can tell, they tried their best. There's a difference between Gore etc. that try their best, and those that try to make it even more difficult for Gore etc.

[ReggieVeggie]

124. Their best?

If the election was stolen, then the Democrats are just as much at fault since they caved in and accepted the results.

[johan helge]

125. The burden of proof

They had to accept the result or prove in court that it's stolen. The latter is not easy.

[hijinx87]

111. bingo

if ralph nader didn't exist, al gore would have been the 43rd president of the united states. and none of the bullshit of the bush regime would have happened.

that's really all there is to it.

[Blue_In_AK]

112. I'm a Nader supporter, and I don't apologize.

Gore wasn't going to win in Alaska anyway, no matter what, and I voted my conscience. I'd do it again.

[johan helge]

114. My conscience is to fight Repubs

If all liberals etc. voted his/her "conscience", the Repubs would be opposed by several parties, not by just one. And the Repubs would win more elections. And because of that, they would dare to be even more right-wing than they already are.

[Blue_In_AK]

121. I think the more parties, the better.

The right is going to have their own split shortly, I'm sure. I believe there are still a few sensible Republicans out there who are appalled by what their party is becoming. They're few and far between, no doubt, but look at what happened in Alaska the last senatorial campaign. Lisa Murkowski won on a write-in against Teabagger Miller, and although I don't always agree with her, she does seem somewhat moderate.

When voting, people should have more choice, not less. The two major parties and their corporate backers have too much control over our political process.

[johan helge]

122. The US election system is the problem

People should have more than two parties, I agree. But as long as the US election system is as it is, where only the candidate with most votes gets power, liberals help Repubs if they split liberal votes between several parties.

[johnaries]

126. Fuck Nader and Naderites. They want to ruin 2012, too. nt

[Exilednight]

127. I think it's safe to assume that Nader doesn't give a fuck what any of us think. n/t