Please help me settle a "birther" argument in my family.

[s-cubed]

From the Hawaii DOH:
"State law prohibits the DOH from disclosing any vital statistics records or information contained in such records unless the requestor has a direct and tangible interest in the record, or as otherwise allowed by statute or administrative rule. See HRS §338-18. Direct and tangible interest is determined by HRS §338-18(b)."

Why doesn't this mean that Obama could get an actual copy of the "long
form" that the birthers keep fussing about. Does anyone know what is in 338-18(b) which describes the "direct and tangible interest"? I understand that if he requests his birth certificate, he gets the form he posted in 2008. But the above seems to say the long form could be requested. What am I missing?
Please, don't flame me! I've checked what I can, and can't find an answer to this.
Thanks

[Wilms]

1. Why even bother? You're letting them run the asylum.

:shrug:

[polichick]

2. delete

[s-cubed]

3. I know my brother should be admitted, but I really want an answer. n/t

[Pharaoh]

5. Even if Jesus came down

And showed them the birth certificate they would not believe. They are brainwashed to think that way.

[msanthrope]

30. Jesus H. Christ?? Can he verify that?

[FSogol]

4. Family is overrated. You can make your own family. I recommend ignoring the morans that share your

DNA. The term "long form" is also bs. Obama's birth certificate has been posted since 2008.

[s-cubed]

10. Please, I don't need stuff I already know. There is a long form

which is on file in the DOH. The recent post about the Hawaii official who denounced Trump's claims as ludicrous said she had examined this form in a bound book at DOH. Supposedly it has more information on it than the certification of live birth which was posted. Does anyone know enough about Hawaiian law to help me understand. I would appreciate it if someone with real knowledge would help me.
As to family, I do value my family, even if I consider some of them to be insane.

[FSogol]

12. See replies 7 & 9. No long form in Hawaii. n/t

[RichGirl]

23. How about this....

Instead of chasing after Obama's birth certificate...tell your family members and everyone else you know, preferably people who live in different states to chase after THEIR OWN birth certificates. Hawaii and many other states simply do not release BC to ANYONE. Maybe it's because every state has to cut back on spending and aren't going to use the man power or paper work for something that is totally unecessary...since the certificate of live birth works just fine in any situation.

Tracking down their own BC will take at least until 2016 and it will no longer be any issue. Unless, of course, we elect another black person as president. Wonder what foreign country they will adopt for him/her?????

[msanthrope]

29. You are conflating vital information with what is statutorily available.

For example, your 'vital record' may contain 10 points of information, because your hospital decided to give 10 points of information. Or, the statute at the time might have required it.

BUT--the statute that governs the issuance of information on a COLB/BC might only call for 4 points. So, even if you wanted the other six points on your COLB/BC, there probably would not be room for them--because the form had been designed to meet statutory requirements.

Let me give you an example--in some states, until relatively recently, 'bastardy' was a vital record point. Birth certificates were marked 'bastard.' After a certain point, though, all states dropped that crap.

Now, let's say a 90-year old goes to replace their BC/COLB. Their old one might have been marked, 'bastard' and the new one? Not marked, because the legislature decided it wasn't necessary. NOW, if I go to your vital record, held in the state files, it will still have the information--but it won't make it on your BC/COLB.

[vaberella]

6. They never give a long form version out to people who even have an interest.

My sister has lost her birth certificate 3 times. And each time she asks for a copy of it---they make a computer copy of it like the one we see Obama has.

Have you tried going to your state and asking for a copy? They might let you see the long form, but they don't normally give a copy for some reason.

[FSogol]

9. Plus, every State is different and has changed forms, styles, and systems

over the years. Odds are, you and your siblings all have different type of forms. Not every state has a long form and some states didn't keep paper copies since they filmed, microfiched, or digitally stored the records.

[sharp_stick]

7. Hawaii doesn't have a "long form"

what he got is what everyone gets. The vital statistics is the original document that is kept at the government office. Obama could go and look at it but not copy it. Hawaii law does not allow for a direct copy of this original record to be made to reduce the chance of destruction and/or theft.

[and-justice-for-all]

8. You can not order a copy of my birth certificate.

nor can I get yours. Even if he did show it to them, those clowns are still going to say he was not born here and that it is a fake, so it really does not matter.

Those fools know damn well that they can not order a copy of his birth certificate and so they will continue to babble this nonsense, they have ever since Hawaii did show it. 'Birthers' are best to heckle and point and laugh at, nothing more.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

11. If what Obama submitted to the FEC

when he filed to run for POTUS was deemed appropriate and acceptable by the FEC to qualify him for the office, then this shouldn't even have been an issue to begin with and certainly not now IMHO. If the FEC didn't have any problems and/or questions about it, I don't see why anybody else should either- unless they just want to (somehow) get Obama removed from the Presidency (which is not going to happen, at least not this way). :shrug:
:banghead:

[FSogol]

14. No one has ever submitted a birth certificate to the FEC. The age of candidates

is public record.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

21. O.k. Well. I guess I'm ignorant about how it works

However, the kind of conspiracy necessary to cover up anything this monumental would require remarkable foresight and planning (not to mention CONNECTIONS) on the part of Obama's mother/family and involve a conspiracy so vast and large and include so many people at so many levels of government that there is simply no way for it to ever be credible. Apparently the birthers simply aren't familiar with the principle of Occam's Razor. Oh yeah, they hate science. Geez! What was I thinking? :eyes:

[FSogol]

22. Tomorrow, I'm posting 9 birth announcements in various US papers.

Then, I'll find a group of Radical-Muslim Kenyan-orphans to groom for the Presidency in 2048. Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

(Posted from my undisclosed lair in a dormant volcano) :woohoo:

[Proud Liberal Dem]

39. LOL Very clever

but not original- since Obama's mother apparently already succeeded........so far. :rofl: :hi:

[vaberella]

35. It doesn't even have to go that far. B/c his mum is an American, he is definitely an American.

You can't argue with stupid.

[treestar]

41. Which would leave them with Biden anyway

Who is still a Democrat.

Supports that they are just racists. They can stand a white Democratic President.

[panader0]

13. I was born in the United States!!

[azureblue]

15. three responses

Hawaii gives all people born in the state the same BC form. No exceptions.
Obama's birth announcement appeared in the paper.
Finally, if they are so worried, then tell them to put their money where their mouth is and fly to Hawaii and see for themselves.

oh, and one more. Tell them to quit making fools of themselves. The FBI long ago vetted Obama, and if they think they are better than the FBI at this, then they are fools.

[bemildred]

16. It does mean he can get a copy.

Does that help?

[abelenkpe]

17. It doesn't even matter his mother is a US citizen

therefore so is Obama.

[baldguy]

18. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The simple facts are: A) Hawaii says Obama was born there, so he's a natural-born US citizen, period and B) Obama's mother was a US citizen, so he'd be a natural-born US citizen no matter where he was born (just like John McCain, who was born in Panama).

The idea that Obama is not, in fact a natural-born US citizen is just such an extraordinary claim.

If they have any substantiated evidence that says A) Hawaii ever questioned Obama's citizenship or the B) Obama's mother wasn't a citizen at the time of his birth, they should bring it forward & allow it to be examined.

Otherwise, they should shut the fuck up & keep their racist ignorance to themselves.

[mrcheerful]

25. What don't birthers get? It is up to the accuser to bring forward proof that the accuseee

is guilty of whatever the accuser is saying he is guilty of. The accused does not have to provide anything other then his word that he isn't guilty unless it will help his case. In the Obama birth case, proof that is used for 99.9% of the population was shown, examined and deemed to be correct that he was born in HI, now the accuser is saying that isn't good enough for them because it proved Obama was born in the US which the accuser knows isn't true because he believes it isn't true.

Some of these people have even went so far as to say mothers citizenship either didn't matter because his father was not a natural born citizen or that because mother married an non US citizen she gave up her rights as a citizen. Others claim that because Obama went to grade school overseas that he isn't a citizen. But they can't seem to find any proof that would show they have a case so they decided there must be a cover up surrounding Obama's birth. Yet not once have they ever questioned McCain's birth even though he was not born in the US.

[treestar]

40. That's what ticks me off

Why are they not as concerned about Biden's? Any VP must be eligible too.

McCain, Palin? No problem believing they are natural born citizens.

[jenmito]

19. Check out this video of Lawrence O'Donnell on this BS-shows the bc at about 1:25:

http://kaystreet.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/donald-trump-birther-lies-destroyed-by-lawrence-odonnell/

[Avant Guardian]

20. Why would Obama respond to a crackpot conspiracy theory?

Seriously

[Proud Liberal Dem]

34. Exactly

that's why I hate it when some reasonable sounding people suggest that he didn't handle this situation *right* in the first place or should just and that he should just let the birthers have whatever it is that they're wanting so that they'll leave him alone- almost as though it's somehow his fault for sowing all of this confusion and that it's now his responsibility to satisfy the birthers (not that they ever will be, of course). Stupid, stupid!
:eyes: :banghead:

[Raine1967]

24. Why do you expect DU to answer your question when

you could easily research this yourself?

The President is a citizen. That is the answer. IF you have issues, go research it. I don;t think you will get the answer you are looking for here on DU, considering the answer is all over the internet.

I am so tired of this ridiculous bullcrap. I don;t think it deserves a place here on DU. It's SO 2008.

[PragmaticLiberal]

27. This should answer the OP's question.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics/

[msanthrope]

26. Hawaii doesn't have a 'long-form' birth certificate available.

So, if I wanted to look at my record, I probably could.

But, I couldn't make Hawaii print up the statistical information onto a certified form because there isn't one---you have the COLB, and its parameters...

There's a simple way to check this--

Have a freeper (should you know one) in Hawaii, go and request viewing of their record. Then ask the state to issue a 'long-form.' They will get the COLB.

[Pirate Smile]

28. Here you go:

Go to link for images:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/how-to-interview-donald-trump-the-birther-debunkers-guide-to-the-universe/

Why Doesn’t President Obama Release His Long-Form Birth Certificate?

I’m going to start here, because this is the piece of the puzzle that nagged at me for a long time. For the uninitiated, much of the Birther conspiracy centers around the Obama campaign’s release of a Certification of Live Birth (COLB) to prove his eligibility for the office of the presidency, rather than an original “long-form” birth certificate. The COLB is the equivalent of the certified copy I use whenever I need a birth certificate, or whenever anyone else does the same. Nobody carries around their “original” birth certificate (although, according to Stephen Wright, George Washington carried around a dollar bill for this purpose).

While Hawaii state officials have sworn that the certified copy is a valid and true copy of the original birth certificate, and have sworn that they have personally inspected the original with their own eyes, they are unable to produce a copy of it for our consumption. In all fairness, there are competing explanations for this. The first, offered at the conclusion of Gov. Neil Abercrombie’s fruitless quest to end the controversy, is this: (emphasis mine)

State Attorney General David Louie told the governor that privacy laws bar him from disclosing an individual’s birth documentation without the person’s consent, Abercrombie spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz said Friday.

Right, so why won’t Barry Hussein O’SecretmuslimBama give his consent, huh? Well, according to a spokesman for the Hawaii Attorney General’s office, he can’t:

“It’s a Department of Health record and it can’t be released to anybody,” he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would be permitted to inspect his birth record, Wisch said.

They can’t both be true, right? Well, they kind of are. According to the Hawaii state law in question, Hawaii Revised Statutes §338-18(b), only those who meet the specific criteria of having a “direct and tangible interest” may “inspect” or have a “certified copy” issued to them. Now, “direct and tangible interest” isn’t something you get to argue about. You’re either on the list, or you’re not. The list consists mainly of those with particular legal relationships with Obama, or those with a court order.

No biggie, though. We’ve already seen the certified copy, and heard from those who have inspected the original. But where does the law say Obama can’t authorize release of the original, or a copy of the original? From HRS §338-18(a): (emphasis mine)

To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.

That means only disclosures specified by law are permitted under any circumstances, and photographing or copying an original record is not listed anywhere, either with or without a “direct and tangible interest,” or a court order. Unless Eric Cantor changes the law, a photograph or photocopy of Barack Obama’s original birth certificate is not permitted under any circumstances. Barack Obama himself couldn’t release a photograph of the original record.

The Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) Released by Barack Obama is not a Birth Certificate

This is only true in the most literal, semantic sense, i.e the words “Certificate of Live Birth” and “Birth Certificate” are not the same. Legally and lingually, a COLB is a birth certificate, “a copy of an official record of a person’s date and place of birth and parentage.” It is the thing that every American brings to the DMV to get a driver’s license, or to the Justice of the Peace to get married, or any other purpose for which a birth certificate is required. This is an important distinction to understand, because it goes to the motivation behind the original Birther smear.

The Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) Released by Barack Obama Has No Serial Number

This serial number?



As the Obama campaign explained to FactCheck.org, they initially redacted the number out of an abundance of caution. “ couldn’t get someone on the phone in Hawaii to tell us whether the number represented some secret information, and we erred on the side of blacking it out. Since then we’ve found out it’s pretty irrelevant for the outside world,” said Obama campaign spokeswoman Shauna Daly.

That serial number (151 1961–010641) is more bad news for the Birthers, as it hews closely (only a few digits off) from the certificates of a pair of twins born the next day, at the same hospital.

Before you even start, I know what you’re thinking: how’d that lady get a copy of the twins’ birth certificate? She obtained that copy on May 5, 1966, before Hawaii switched to a digital system for certified copies.

The Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) Released by Barack Obama Has No Signature



Trump actually does concede that he has seen one “on television” that had a stamp, but no signature. That one he saw on TeeVee is the same as the one he saw without the signature, because the signature is on the back. Trump is correct in noting that it is a stamp, but in combination with the raised seal, it carries the legal weight of an original signature. As a tremendously successful businessman, Trump must be aware of this. Surely, he doesn’t sign all of those paychecks by hand?

Barack Obama Has Spent Over $2 Million in Legal Fees to Keep This Quiet

The basis for this claim is the amount of money the Obama campaign paid to the law firm Perkins Coie to, among other things, defend then-Senator Obama’s eligibility for the presidency against an endless series of lawsuits (interestingly, very similar to the rationale Sarah Palin gave for her resignation as Alaska Governor). If defending yourself when someone sues you is a sinister act, then Trump has a lot of explaining to do.

There is a Tape of President Obama’s Grandmother Saying He Was Born in Kenya

Candy Crowley handled this pretty well during her interview with Trump, as did Salon, but whether you want to make allowances for translation, and the condition of the tin-can-and-string contraption the call was made with, and the lack of any way to authenticate the identity of the speaker, and the “when did you stop beating your wife” style of questioning from Ron McRae, the fact is, the closest Sarah Obama comes to saying this is, according to the translator, “Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born.”

She never says Obama was born in Kenya, and in fact, only ever says he was born in Hawaii, even though McRae tries really hard to get her to say he was born in Kenya.

bama’s Grandparents Made the Birth Announcements in Two Separate Honolulu Papers

As Crowley pointed out, birth announcements aren’t submitted to the papers by the general public, “but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals,” according to The Honolulu Advertiser.

Trump also makes a big deal out of the eight day interval between Obama’s birth and the publication of these announcements. I guess he didn’t notice that all of the birth announcements in these papers were from the same couple of days, Aug. 4 and 5. Was the entire state comprised of Kenyan birth-fakers?

It’s easy to forget how things worked back in the days before email, faxes, and other series’ of tubes, but back then, things took awhile. It’s very likely, in fact, that these announcements were reported and published on a weekly basis, and had to meet a long deadline for publication.

There is an Original Birth Certificate on File, but it Says Obama is a Muslim

Trump only hinted at this, saying maybe “there’s something on it that he doesn’t want people to see,” but this particular theory combines birtherism with another popular wingnut smear of President Obama. Unfortunately, neither Hawaii’s long form, nor short form, birth certificates contain religious information. Unless the birth certificate features Obama’s bowling average, I don’t know what Trump’s talking about.

[s-cubed]

33. Thank you, Pirate Smite. That was helpful. n/t

[LiberalFighter]

37. More than likely there is also a law that makes it a felony for a government official

to lie about documents of that nature.

[obxhead]

31. Why not just turn the argument.

Ask him why he hates Obama so much. On major policy the Republicans have gotten 99.5% of what they wanted anyway. He should be cheering for such solid GOP policy being continued and signed into law.

[yellowcanine]

32. Actually there is plenty of info that can be googled if you really want to know the truth of the

matter. At this point it is unnecessary to be asking people for this info. It is a couple of clicks away.

[Generic Brad]

36. His mother was an American citizen so he's an American citizen

Where he was born is irrelevant.

John McCain was born in Panama but no one questioned his American citizenship in the last election.

[Thrill]

38. Waste of time. The guy has been President for over 2 yrs now

If somebody still believe this crap. They are dumbasses and there is no hope for them

[HipChick]

42. It doesn't matter..its all about his skin color..

and birthers pushing an 'acceptable' form of racism..period.

[mkultra]

43. The answer is clearly..

fuck them. Of course he could get the long form. But he has a valid copy and that's all that's needed. So the answer to anyone asking "why cant he get his long form" is "fuck you." That's pretty much how it boils down.