Post crash, how many Cubans went homeless, teachers fired/schools closed, or lost their health care?

[Billy Burnett]

NONE. That's right. None. Zero. Nada.


Viva Cuba!

May we learn to resist corporatism as they have!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. The same country that just legalized real estate?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/03/world/americas/03cuba.html

:rofl:

[Mika]

3. Go ahead and scoff. One BIG point, there's zero homelessness in Cuba.

Now, if you think that concentration of wealth and real estate is a good thing, then cheer what's going on in the USA right now. Go ahead.

---

| | | | |

[Starbucks Anarchist]

6. No country on Earth has ZERO homelessness.

Now, if you think that concentration of wealth and real estate is a good thing, then cheer what's going on in the USA right now. Go ahead.

What the hell are you talking about?

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Really? Can you support that statement? nt

[Starbucks Anarchist]

13. Can you prove Cuba doesn't have one single homeless person?

Because I've heard of homeless people everywhere.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. "everywhere". But have you heard of it in Cuba? And do you have

a citation for that?

Or are you just bullshitting?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

16. Do you have a citation for a zero homeless rate?

And not one from Castro's mouth?

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. With that answer I accept that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

You should learn to discern the difference between propaganda and reality.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

39. Yet you insist that there's one country on Earth with zero homeless people.

Not a *low rate* of homelessness, but ZERO homeless people in a world full of them.

And in a country essentially closed off to most Americans, at that. You sound like Ahmadinejad when he said Iran had no gay people.

[roody]

72. Cuba is open to Americans. You can go anytime.

They even offer to not stamp your passport so you won't have trouble with your own free country.

[Billy Burnett]

76. If you are really that interested, then inform yourself.

-Children on the Streets of the Americas: Globalization, Homelessness and Education in the United States, Brazil, and Cuba-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415923220/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-eQGfheDL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Indeed, Cuba has no homelessness*.


* - now, of course there are a few here and there that might be homeless or habitually transient, but, statistically speaking Cuba has full housing. Plus, it is a constitutionally mandated human right.

[roody]

70. I cite a billboard in Habana.

[MADem]

32. Cuba suffered horrible housing shortages, I don't know where this meme came from

Every time a hurricane rips over the island they lose more of the crappy, ill-maintained, ancient housing in their stockpile, and they aren't building fast enough to replace what is lost through wind, weather, age and lack of maintenance.

See: http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jun00/07e7.htm

"I've slept in the bus terminals with my two daughters; at the home of friends one day here, one day there," Ninterian said. "Last week I spent 24 hours sitting with my children at the entrance of the local Communist Party office, waiting for them to give me some kind of solution to my problem."

Though these cases may be the exception rather than the rule, they illustrate a growing breakdown in the Cuban social system.

In Havana, the problem has reached crisis levels. The Cuban capital is home to 2.2 million people, 20 percent of the nation's population on 1 percent of Cuban territory.

"This is a socialist country, where we should receive help, where the state must give us a hand, even if it's to give us the means to build with our own hands," said Miguel, a Havana resident who would not provide his last name.

Until two years ago, more buildings were collapsing from lack of repair and decay than those being built.
======================================
More recently (click on the link to see the photographs in all their glory):

http://babalublog.com/2010/02/a-letter-and-photos-from-cuba/

Myth: "There is no homelessness in Cuba:"


This alcoholic was passed out on a main thoroughfare and everyone stepped over him and ignored him, (as they do in Toronto).

Myth: The elderly are very well nourished and taken care of in Cuba:


This elderly woman is typical of the very old; so thin and wasted from malnutrition. I've seen strong young men toss such women like potato sacks to get a place on the bus.

Myth: The revolution feeds it people:


These people have taken a burlap bag hoping to find scraps at the peso food stall on a Saturday afternoon at closing time.

Myth: Alcoholism is an evil of the capitalist bourgeois:


These alcoholics are cleaning an oven on the street for money to buy rum.

Myth: Again, there is no homelessness in Cuba:


Here is a one-legged man looking through garbage for anything, food, something that he can sell.
======================================

More? Here, what a housing paradise!!! You get a divorce, but you can't leave!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004102242_cubasplit01.html

---------------------------------------

Still more? http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/10e1.htm


HAVANA, Cuba - March 8 (Jaime Leygonier / www.cubanet.org) - A homeless man died during the night Sunday at the crossroads of Galiano and San Rafael Streets, and his body stayed there, surrounded by the curious, until it was picked up about four hours after he was found....A policeman pronounced the man dead after taking his pulse. There was no thought of calling for a doctor.

Someone covered the body with flattened cardboard boxes. There are no sheets for the dead in Cuba; sometimes there are no sheets for the living.

The body was surrounded by a circle of onlookers and about 10 policemen. The coroner's wagon did not arrive until four hours later.

A fellow homeless cried loudly, holding a plastic cup containing some liquor.

"He was my friend," he kept saying.

--------------------------------

No one is saying that homelessness is rampant in Cuba, because it isn't. But MOST people live in dramatically SUBSTANDARD housing, and can't afford to avail themselves of the new real estate regs (which WILL produce homelessness, because scarcity already exists in Cuban housing in a big way, and people who don't want to live together are forced to). Some people live in shitholes that are way worse than the favelas of Sao Paolo, or the shacks that homeless hermits in the US throw up in secluded spots, or even the living quarters of the sewer people of Las Vegas
...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2651937/The-people-living-in-drains-below-Las-Vegas.html

....but hey, they're not "homeless!"

[Mika]

35. OK. Mellon Scaife sources like Cubanet? RW exile Babalublog?

Sure. OK. We've been through your sources many times before, I'm not going to waste my time again debunking them again. Gotta hand it to you, you're persistent w/your Cuba bashing.

Come to "little Havana" right here in Miami, I'll show you ramshackle.


All the best.

---

| | | | |

[MADem]

38. I KNEW you were gonna try to deflect in that fashion.

So, all the pictures are photoshopped? CNN is bullshitting?

You pick ONE source you don't like, and you hang your "I don't want to admit I misspoke" hat on it. Then you call me names--now I'm a Cuba basher because I don't buy your bullshit.

Fact--there ARE people who are homeless in Cuba. If they get a few hurricanes, that number will increase. As private real estate transactions heat up, the numbers will go up even more.

Fact--Many, many people in Cuba live in woefully substandard housing. People are living in hallways of apartment buildings--sure, they aren't technically "homeless" because they have a bed in the hall, but come on.

Fact--Two wrongs don't make a right. The housing situation in the US sucks, and I don't disagree at all that you could "show me ramshackle," and I fully acknowledge, since I too have eyes and can see, that it has sucked since Ronald Reagan took office. That's when I started stepping over bums in the street in a big way.

But when you try to pretend that Cuba is a utopia where everyone is smiling and happy and thrilled to be where they're at, well, that's bullshit. And it isn't "Cuba bashing" to call you on your absolute bullshit. If that were the case, no one would want to leave. But they do leave, lots of them, and they'll strap a lawnmower engine to a front door or a bathtub and head for Miami....so clearly, there are people with different priorities who want to live in the larger world, and rationed, restrictive, shared-misery Cuba is NOT enough for them.

All the best backatcha.

[joshcryer]

41. Cubanet sources Cuban bloggers who have no connection except that they copy their contents.

So don't denigrate any posts on Cubanet that are copied from the bloggers, because you'd be doing the same thing that the right wingers are doing, distorting where their position comes from.

[Mika]

52. They are paid well to "report" Castro's "brutal dictatorship".

Various Richard Mellon Scaife "foundations" and the Diaz-Balart family and the International Republican Institute are their primary underwriters.
Cubanet pays their "journalists" to produce "reports" which are overwhelmingly nothing more than Faux News type hearsay. "Some people say style "journalism".

Their "reporting" on the Cuban rocker, Gorki, being arrested by Castro's goons for "just speaking his mind" is a perfect example of Cubanet "reports"
Turned out that Gorki got a code violation ticket because his punk band was practicing late and loud with a drunken Gorki screaming obscenities through their PA system and the neighbors complained. It was a disturbing the peace after 11 PM code violation. (Such codes, btw, are common all over the USA.)
There was no "arrest". He merely showed up at the municipal office to pay his $26 fine.
The facts didn't matter. Cubanet's "reports" of Gorki's arrest by Cartso's thugs for "speaking his mind" swept all over the RW (er.... librul) media.

They are not just "copied from the bloggers", but the bloggers are paid very well to blog by ultra RW Miamicubano exiles and Mellon Scaife.
Realistically, one has to take into account the influence this has over their bought-and-paid-for product - "reports" and blogs produced for the RW (er.... librul) media.

---

| | | | |

[MADem]

31. Never mind that there are homeless people in the US who enjoy better living conditions

than the 'housed' in Cuba.

This is an asinine thread. Cuba is so fucking wonderful that if they built a bridge from Havana to Miami they'd only need to make it one way....the stampede would be beyond comprehension. And that's despite the poor US economy.

If it weren't for Hugo Chavez's oil, Cuba would be fucked. And if it weren't for Cuba's doctors, VZ would be sick as hell.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

40. I remember seeing a converted '50s Chevy (or similar car) used as a raft from Cuba to Florida.

This was a few years ago, but if that doesn't scream "Get me the fuck out of here," then nothing does.

[MADem]

47. I remember that as well--it brought to mind that Fannie Flagg episode on Allen Funt's

"Candid Camera" where the intrepid Fannie drove one of those boat-cars across a river after asking for directions--and Funt's crew recorded the shocked looks on the people's faces.

Was it this big blue taxi that you remembered?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8136908

MIAMI — A vintage blue taxicab converted into a seagoing vessel and carrying several Cuban immigrants was intercepted Tuesday off Key West by the Coast Guard...Footage from NBC-6 in Miami showed Coast Guard officers boarding the blue vehicle, which had been modified with a boat prow in front and appeared to have at least four immigrants aboard....Under U.S. immigration policy, Cubans who reach U.S. shores generally are allowed to stay while those caught at sea are usually returned.

In 2003, immigrants tried to cross the Florida Straits aboard a green 1951 Chevrolet pickup, which a man named Luis Grass had converted into a boat. They were intercepted and sent back to Cuba. The Coast Guard then sunk the craft.

In 2004 Grass made a second attempt to get to the United States illegally — this time aboard a Buick sedan powering another homemade barge.

Grass and his family had more success sticking to land: on March 12 they entered the U.S. though the Texas-Mexico border and were allowed to stay

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. I think it was.

Points for their creativity, though. :rofl:

[MADem]

62. Here's an amusing web page with links to other "camionautas!"

http://www.floatingcubans.com/

Necessity is the mother of invention!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

66. LOL!

:rofl:

[Mika]

59. He was smuggled in. He could not legally come to the US (failed a US immigration petition)

Interesting that you don't mention the little detail that he had failed a legal US immigration petition due to his criminal background check (that the US interests section in Havana does).

But, due to the hypocritical US policy regarding Cubans, even those who've failed a legal immigration application get to stay without any questions if they touch US soil by any means (including smuggling operations).

No other illegal entrants are eligible to such access.

These Cubans criminals who were rejected a legal US visa are released by ICE onto the streets within 24 hours with an I-75 card (Green card). Then they have instant access to Welfare, Social Security, Sec 8 public assisted housing, Food Stamps, and more - benefits granted them by the US's Cuban Adjustment Act.

Your celebration of the attempted illegal entry, and then successful entry (via smuggling ops) of an individual who has a violent criminal record into this country is alarming.

Over 20,000 legal US immigration visas are offered to Cubans in Cuba every years (more then any other nation). Not all are even applied for.
Those who qualify enter the US fully legally - usually landing in a commercial plane at Miami International Airport.
The VAST majority of Cuban "exiles" have entered the US in this manner.
They are granted the same aforementioned instant benefits under the US's Cuban Adjustment Act (for Cubans only)

NO other immigrants from any other nation are granted these instant benefits.

Generally speaking, the vast majority of the "rafters" you celebrate have failed legal US entry requirements due to their background (as determined by US policy).

---

| | | | |

[MADem]

61. WTF is WRONG with you? I was having a conversation about floating CARS

I wasn't having a conversation about the political POV of the dude driving them. And I wasn't "celebrating" this particular rafter (though the person I was conversing with--and I--think that the construction of those vehicles is pretty fucking clever, even if an axe-murderer had done it), but we were certainly noting that they--rafters and floating cars-- certainly do exist--unless you want to pretend that they don't, like you did the homeless in Cuba.

I hope you're not going to extrapolate, and pretend that EVERY rafter is a criminal--because that would be a bridge WAY too far. When a person can't get an exit card to go with a visa, people often do what they must. Many people who float here are NOT criminals--but that doesn't fit with your storyline, apparently.

See, people don't just need a VISA to come here--they also need an exit card from the Cuban government. Surely you know this, you're such an expert--why did you fail to mention this terribly key point? And guess what? The Cuban government is pretty shitty about handing those out. Who can blame them? All the smart people want to leave! They also make it VERY difficult, with police blockades and checkpoints, to even get to the US Interests Section to apply for those visas, which makes it difficult to fulfill the quotas. Shhh--don't mention that, either! But hey...that doesn't quite fit with your propaganda points, now, does it?

Read up: http://havana.usint.gov/immigrant_visas.html

I cannot help but notice that the minute anyone says anything that might remotely be construed as something other than "All Hail Cuba!" you've just got to jump on the running board and launch into a propaganda diatribe. Don't you see that you aren't having much success here with your confrontational attitude and partial 'truths?' You might want to check your rearview mirror and see what's looking back at you. You also need to stop bullshitting and playing fast and loose with highly selective facts, and calling everyone who disagrees with you names (Cuba basher) or painting them with false characterizations (celebrating the arrival of criminals). You're the one with the bias, here--and it is tiresome, obvious, and reflects poorly on your veracity.

Fact--No one, save the rightwing Cubans and the Puerto Ricans in PR defending that island's manufacturing infrastructure, think that the embargo is a great idea at this stage in our history. This is true even if the Cubans had a hand in killing JFK.

Fact--Buildings crumble in Cuba all the time. They're old and not maintained. Housing is woefully substandard, and a huge percentage of their inventory would be condemned in other nations in the world. Their water system is failing, leaking, and impure. Cuba is a crumbling SHITHOLE with great natural beauty, an industrious population that is not working at their full potential, and ENORMOUS potential. It will require many, many billions of dollars to "fix." Castro The Elder knows this, and he's making pronouncements that will make it easier for Little Brother to transition the country to some sort of socialist-capitalist-police state hodgepodge in the future.

See, that's reality. Your desperate tales of "Happy Happy Glad Glad Cuba" aren't.

[msanthrope]

63. I await citation of the fact that all incarcerated HIV positive people were "repeat infectors."

See downthread. It's interesting, the spin...

[MADem]

64. You'll probably have a long wait.

I don't think there's a credible source in support of that assertion. However, there are a number of sources that attest to the punitive nature of those "sanitariums."

[roody]

71. Have you seen this for yourself---Cuba, that is?

[joshcryer]

42. Heh, if you can call living in a wooden shack a "home."

:eyes:

[Recursion]

73. Because if you tell an NGO you're homeless you go to jail

Same way as if you complain to the American tourists who sneak in through Mexico. Hagiographies of Cuba are silly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. And the same country that's been dealing with an ILLEGAL

economic embargo from the largest economy in the world for sixty years, where homelessness in endemic and poverty rampant, and 30% of the population cannot afford to SEE a doctor.

Got a lotta room to laugh.

[Mimosa]

28. ^ Amen!!! RaleighDUer! ^ n/t

[Mika]

2. Not to mention....

Cuba is the ONLY nation to achieve the WWF sustainability goals.

Indeed, Billy. VIVA CUBA!

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

4. Cuba, where they fired 1 million public workers and now have private homeownership?

Cuba to cut one million public sector jobs
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11291267


After 50 Years, Cuban Houses To Go Up For Sale
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/04/138787336/after-50-years-cuban-houses-to-go-up-for-sale



In Cuba, capitalism thrives on Craigslist-like sites---
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/08/03/in-cuba-capitalism-thrives-on-craigslist-like-sites/#axzz1UZfg59qf

Best Humor OP this week!!!

[Mika]

9. Well ....

BBC article omits the transition training and education put in place, plus they will still receive full pay until they get a private sector job.

The NPR article does not mention that the "sale" is more like a trade up system, where the sale is only for the difference in values. An exchange plus value system

The Craigslist article is essentially describing an online black market system designed to help skip the taxation on commerce.


I have family in Cuba. I stay well informed as to the actual happenings there, not foreign press spin.

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

15. Is Fidel lying, too? "The Cuban model doesn't even work for us anymore,"

http://www.theatlantic.com/jeffrey-goldberg/

You have family there? How much money do you send?

[Mika]

17. In context, Mr Castro was saying that the revolution is constant & evolving.

Not as inflexible as many assume.

I do send a minimal remittance to my family when they ask - they use it for some community projects. How much is my personal business.

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

22. Of course. Towards a more capitalistic model, complete with foreign ownership of land.

I am sure the money you send is greatly appreciated.

[Mika]

24. Foreign ownership isn't on the table as of now. n/t

---

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[joshcryer]

44. Perpetual ownership leases are in fact on the table. Canada got one. Others are soon to follow.

Cuba is going the way of the USSR: http://www.cubastandard.com/2011/07/30/golf-course-condo-buyers-will-get-unlimited-ownership

The casinos have already docked there: http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/massive-cruise-liner-docks-796206.html

It's only a matter of time before Batista's dream is realized. Cronyism will assure it.

[Mika]

54. They're leases.

You do know that leases have terms don't you. Either side can renege and pay the prior negotiated terms of termination of the lease.

My goodness. This is basic for most people to understand - unless you're busy grinding an ax.

---

| | | | |

[MADem]

58. Well, that's just not true. The only people who can't own are Americans.

Brazil and other nations are poised to snap up all the nice waterfront hotel facilities.


Unless, of course, Raul Castro is lying...

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/fidel-cuban-model-doesnt-even-work-for-us-anymore/62602/
Raul Castro is already loosening the state's hold on the economy. He recently announced, in fact, that small businesses can now operate and that foreign investors could now buy Cuban real estate. (The joke of this new announcement, of course, is that Americans are not allowed to invest in Cuba, not because of Cuban policy, but because of American policy. In other words, Cuba is beginning to adopt the sort of economic ideas that America has long-demanded it adopt, but Americans are not allowed to participate in this free-market experiment because of our government's hypocritical and stupidly self-defeating embargo policy. We'll regret this, of course, when Cubans partner with Europeans and Brazilians to buy up all the best hotels).

[lumpy]

27. Thank you Mika. I trust your input moreso than others who have

no direct relationship to Cuba.

[Mika]

30. I am not defending everything that has ever happened in Cuba since the 1959 Revolution.

Just as it would be unconscionable to defend everything that has ever happened here in the USA.

I'm simply endorsing much of, and the gist of what Mr Billy Burnett posted in his OP. Considering all of the circumstance Cuba has faced, the Cuban people have done an amazing job building out full and fair universal infrastructure based on social equality and equity.

---

| | | | |

[Bluenorthwest]

5. And all those years of putting all the gay people in prison, that

is just one of those details like those details that distract from the glorious achievement that was the Autobahn.

[Mika]

12. Actually, they didn't.

While we all have to admit, that in both Cuba and the US gays were jailed and mistreated due to homophobia, but Cuba has moved light years forward, even beyond the USA right NOW. Full recognition of gay civil unions, full coverage of gender reassignment under their universal h-c system, constitutional amendments outlawing homophobia in the workplace, etc.


Here's a thread that will help illuminate some (who are actually interested in informing themselves on Cuba's sanatorium system that treated HIV/AIDS patients, as opposed to those here simply to bash w/RW talking points).


http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x114

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

19. Sanitarium apologia!!! Yes. remember when the US rounded up gay people and forced

them into sanitariums if they tested positive?

Yeah. I don't remember that, either.

[Mika]

20. I do remember that the US health infrastructure didn't do much.

A lot of blaming Haitians. Then gays. Still no mention of HIV/AIDs until post Reagan.

Meanwhile, Cuba wasn't "rounding up" HIV+ into sanatoriums. the only people forcibly put into sanatoriums were repeat infectors - and unlike the US they were treated medically, not thrown untreated in jails to infect other inmates like here. Please do some real research, not RW spin.

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

23. The only people put into sanitariums were 'repeat infectors?' Talk about spin--

care to cite that factoid?

[Mika]

25. Looking for an active link. Old ones not working.

Two good articles on Cuba's efforts to limit a cause-unknown (at that time) epidemic that could have wiped out their h-c system and destroyed the society if left unchecked (Cuba did not start the HIV/IADS fight presuming infections limited to contact with Haitians or gays as the US health infrastructure did - in Cuba hiv/aids was treated across the board - hetero & homosexual).


Cuba's AIDS patient #1 dies
By Karen Lee Wald, Havana
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html

HIV/AIDS in Cuba: A rights-based analysis
http://www.hhrjournal.org/index.php/hhr/article/viewArticle/138/220


However you perceive Cuba's sanatorium system and unlike the US (at first), they were treating the infected as patients of their universal h-c system, and took good care of them.

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

26. Your own source confirms mandatory quarrantine for all HIV positive people

in Cuba, not just 'repeat infectors.' It was called Resolution 128--and anyone diagnosed with HIV went to a sanitarium pursuant to powers of the State granted under Decree 54.

In fact, that policy wasn't changed until 1997--Resolution 101, when some people were allowed to be ambulatory, or live at home.

You can find people who will tell you that Auschwitz was a work camp, too, if you look hard enough.

[Mika]

29. Please cite the full Resolutions 128 & 101.

Not a reference to them, but the actual full resolution language.

Thanks.

I'll pick this up when you can cite them.

---

| | | | |

[msanthrope]

37. Sure. Now where is your citation that the only people locked up were 'repeat infectors?'

You made an extraordinary claim. So back it.

In the meantime, if you have Lexis or Westlaw, you can access their databases of Cuban law, since the glorious worker's paradise of Cuba has not seen fit to put all of its laws on the Internets.

The Ministerial Regulation changing the sanitarium policy in 1997 is Doc. 101, issued July 16th.

As a non-paid site explains, Decree 101 (1997) changes the absolute quarantine policy--

"This resolution authorizes the creation of an Ambulatory Care Program for Persons with HIV/AIDS. This was the first step in changing the existing Program, offering persons with HIV/AIDS an option to sanatorial care, permitting them to return to their communities and families, while making regular outpatient visits to their physician. They could also return to their jobs, with full rights and obligations established under law for all workers in the country."

http://www.medicc.org/publications/medicc_review/III/hiv-aids/pages/legal.html

Prior to 1997, the controlling decree was--

"Law 41, of July 13, 1983, on Public Health, whose Article 20 referred to diseases that might become epidemics: the Ministry of Publish Health will determine which diseases pose a risk for the community, will adopt diagnostic and preventive measures and will establish methods and procedures for mandatory treatment, either through ambulatory or hospitalized regimes; and such actions will be conducted by institutions of the National Health System.

These regulations led to the creation of the Santiago de Las Vegas AIDS Sanatorium in Havana, for attention to HIV-positive individuals, in accordance with Resolution 128 of August 4, 1989, of the Ministry of Public Health. Similar sanatoriums were subsequently created in other provinces. Each one of these sanatoriums is considered an independent institution within the National Health System, its regulations adapted to the conditions in each province."


Here's a report from JAMA--

"In 1986, 1 year after documenting its first case of AIDS, Cuba instituted the world's only mandatory quarantine policy for people with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. The Cuban Ministry of Health began widespread HIV testing, focused on but not limited to members of groups considered to be at high risk due to their travel or sexual histories. In 1986 alone, the ministry invested $3 million in testing equipment.1​ By 1993, 12 million tests had been conducted in a country with 11 million citizens.2 Cubans with HIV infection were confined in newly constructed sanatoriums across the island and were questioned by health workers about past sexual partners for contact tracing and testing. Critics of Cuba's quarantine policy charged that it violated human rights,3​ while supporters applauded Cuba's commitment to HIV control.4 In 1994, the quarantine was officially lifted. However, by 2003, half of all HIV-positive Cubans still lived in the sanatoriums.5​"

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/290/21/2875.full

Now, are you SERIOUSLY going to tell us that half of all HIV-positive Cubans were 'repeat infectors?'

Mandatory quarantine was the policy, FROM THE START--from 1986--

"Cuba has an unusual AIDS policy. A third of its population has already been tested for the virus, and the 240 people found to be infected have been put into quarantine. Since no cure is in sight, their isolation is indefinite."

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/06/opinion/the-editorial-notebook-cuba-s-quarantine-for-aids.html

Now, you have the citations, and you have contemporary reports. Are you still going to claim that Cuba only quarantined 'repeat infectors?' If those laws don't say what the articles do, I am sure you will post the proof.

[MADem]

33. +100!!! NT

[Dreamer Tatum]

8. I choose corporatism over that shithole any day. nt

[Mika]

18. Duly noted.

Haitian Workers Party members assassinated by corporate death squads

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[bhikkhu]

21. That's a good reminder...

I go back and forth about Cuba myself (not that my opinion is important to anyone but myself) - you can characterize it as a great example of health and sound planning, built on self-sufficient agriculture, hard work and creativity. What they have done, they share the full credit for.

And you can characterize it as a paranoid police state, which imprisons dissent and has to patrol its own borders to keep its people in.

I like to lean toward the good things, and imagine the bad things exist primarily because that picture could so easily be the future of Cuba, with the massive industrial military and corporate machines parked at its borders.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harun]

34. Revolucion en los Estados Unidos !!!!!

and long live Cuba!

[robcon]

43. Plenty of them lost weight, however. food has become scarce in Cuba.

n/t

[PoliticAverse]

45. CNN article from 2000 on homelessness in Cuba...

http://articles.cnn.com/2000-06-06/world/cuba.housing_1_cuban-government-cuban-capital-havana?_s=PM:WORLD

[PoliticAverse]

46. If you don't allow free emigration you don't have a country you have a prison camp. n/t

[A Simple Game]

48. How do you feel about your country not letting you even visit another country?

Or at least putting severe restrictions on the ability to visit.

[MADem]

50. You can visit, so your subject line is false,

though you mitigated it slightly by hiding the facts in the message portion.

[A Simple Game]

51. So you can take a flight or boat directly from the USA to Cuba?

Americans do visit, I don't deny that. Are you implying that it is legal for all Us citizens?
Maybe the links I looked at are out dated?

Please educate me.

On edit: My subject line did not make a statement, I asked a question. How can a question be a lie?

[MADem]

56. Where did I claim that you could do that? Why, nowhere.

But yes, you can....and GOOGLE is actually YOUR FRIEND, too!!
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/119998/20110308/us-grants-license-to-8-new-airports-to-host-cuba-flights-cuba-usa-cuba-flights-flights-to-cuba-miami.htm


I never said it was easy--but you can do it. You always could have. Americans have been going to Cuba for decades, legally, by way of Canada or Mexico, usually. Some go by boat, and simply live on their boat while they visit. When there were onerous currency restrictions, one simply made a gift of money to a third-nation national, who regifted the cash to a local, who "hosted" you for "free" because they were such nice people. You could also get exemptions for research, charity, scholarship, "people-to-people" programs, athletic competitions, and things of that nature. So, if you want to go to Cuba, you'd better be prepared to either study or teach at a university that can get you a research license, affiliate yourself with a religious or other sort of group that does charity work over there, fire up a decent blog and call yourself a freelance journalist, or jump through any one of the State Dept. hoops to make it happen.

When you ask a rhetorical question, along the lines of "When did you stop beating your wife?" you're playing a game.

Here are some links for your edification:


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200111/02/eng20011102_83736.html

http://www.cubatravelservices.com/home

But hey, let's make it reak easy--there is no "copyright" restrictions on work published by the US GOVERNMENT, so the four paragraph limitation doesn't apply. Here's the salient information straight from the State Department:

...General licenses are granted to the following categories of travelers, who are permitted to spend money to travel to Cuba and to engage in other transactions directly incident to the purpose of their travel, without the need to obtain a specific license from the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC):

Persons visiting a close relative (any individual related to a person by blood, marriage, or adoption who is no more than three generations removed from that person or from a common ancestor with that person) who is a national of Cuba, and persons traveling with them who share a common dwelling as a family with them. There is no limit on the duration or frequency of such travel. (According to the Cuban Assets Control Regulations, third country nationals who reside in Cuba are considered Cuban nationals.)
Journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel (regularly employed in that capacity by a news reporting organization and traveling for journalistic activities).
Official government travelers on official business.
Members of international organizations of which the United States is also a member (traveling on official business).
Full-time professionals, whose travel transactions are directly related to research in their professional areas, provided that their research: 1) is of a noncommercial, academic nature; 2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba; and 3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination.
Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to attendance at professional meetings or conferences in Cuba that are organized by an international professional organization, institution, or association that regularly sponsors such meetings or conferences in other countries. An organization, institution, or association headquartered in the United States may not sponsor such a meeting or conference unless it has been specifically licensed to sponsor it. The purpose of the meeting or conference cannot be the promotion of tourism in Cuba or other commercial activities involving Cuba, or to foster production of any bio-technological products.
Employees of a U.S. telecommunications services provider or an entity duly appointed to represent such a provider traveling incident to: 1) the commercial marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied delivery, or servicing of authorized telecommunications-related items; or 2) participation in telecommunications-related professional meetings for the commercial marketing of, sales negotiation for, or performance under contracts for the provision of telecommunications services, or the establishment of facilities to provide telecommunications services.
Individuals regularly employed by a producer or distributer of agricultural commodities, medicine, or medical devices or an entity duly appointed to represent such a producer or distributer traveling incident to the commercial marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied deliver, or servicing in Cuba of such items.
Travelers who do not qualify for a general license may be eligible for a specific OFAC license if their travel falls under one of the following categories:

Specific Licenses to Visit Close Relatives in Cuba who are non-Cuban nationals
Travelers wishing to visit a family member in Cuba who is authorized to be in Cuba, but is not a national of Cuba or a third country national residing in Cuba, may be granted a specific license by applying directly to OFAC.

Specific Licenses for Educational Institutions
Specific licenses may be issued by OFAC to authorize travel transactions related to certain educational activities by students or employees at U.S. undergraduate or graduate institutions. Such licenses must be renewed after a period of one year. Once an academic institution has applied for and received such a specific license, the following categories of travelers affiliated with that academic institution are authorized to engage in travel-related transactions incident to the following activities without seeking further authorization from OFAC:

Undergraduate or graduate students participating in a structured educational program lasting at least 10 weeks as part of a course offered at a U.S. undergraduate or graduate institution. Students planning to engage in such transactions must carry a letter from the licensed institution stating: 1) the institution’s license number; 2) that the student is enrolled in an undergraduate or graduate degree program at the institution; and 3) that the travel is part of an educational program of that institution.
Persons doing noncommercial Cuba-related academic research in Cuba for the purpose of qualifying academically as a professional (e.g., research toward a graduate degree). Students planning to engage in such transactions must carry a letter from the licensed institution stating: 1) the institution’s license number; 2) that the student is enrolled in a graduate degree program at the institution; and 3) that the Cuba research will be accepted for credit toward that graduate degree.
Undergraduate or graduate students participating in a formal course of study lasting at least 10 weeks at a Cuban academic institution, provided that the Cuban study will be accepted for credit toward a degree at the licensed U.S. institution. A student planning to engage in such transactions must carry a letter from the licensed U.S. institution stating: 1) the institution's license number; 2) that the individual is a student currently enrolled in an undergraduate or graduate degree program, or a full-time permanent employee at the institution; and 3) that the Cuba-related travel is part of a structured educational program of that institution that will last at least 10 weeks.
Persons who are regularly employed in a teaching capacity at a licensed U.S. undergraduate or graduate institution and who plan to teach part or all of an academic program at a Cuban academic institution lasting at least 10 weeks. An individual planning to engage in such transactions must carry a letter from the licensed institution stating: 1) the institution’s license number; and 2) that the individual is regularly employed by the licensed institution in a teaching capacity.
Cuban scholars teaching or engaging in other scholarly activities at a licensed college or university in the United States. Licensed institutions may sponsor such Cuban scholars, including payment of a stipend or salary. The Cuban scholar may remit all such stipends or salary payments back to Cuba.
Full-time employees of a licensed institution organizing or preparing for the educational activities described above. An individual engaging in such transactions must carry a letter from the licensed institution stating: 1) the institution’s license number; and 2) that the individual is regularly employed by the institution.
Specific Licenses for Religious Organizations
Specific licenses may be issued by OFAC to religious organizations to authorize individuals affiliated with the organization to engage in travel transactions under the auspices of the religious organization. Applications by religious organizations for such licenses should include examples of the religious activities to be undertaken in Cuba. All individuals traveling pursuant to a religious organization’s license must carry with them a letter from the licensed organization citing the number of the license and confirming that they are affiliated with the organization and are traveling to Cuba to engage in religious activities under the auspices of the organization. Note that persons wishing to travel to Cuba to engage in religious activities that are not authorized pursuant to a religious organization's specific license may apply for a specific license to engage in these activities.

The Department of State notes an apparent increase in visa scrutiny by Cuban authorities, especially in regard to religious groups. Religious travelers to Cuba should be aware that Cuban officials require specific authorization to travel to Cuba for religious purposes. Religious travelers to Cuba should contact the Cuban Interests Section regarding proper authorization to travel to Cuba for religious purposes and should wait for their response before traveling.

Other Specific Licenses
Specific licenses may be issued by OFAC, on a case-by-case basis, authorizing travel transactions by the following categories of persons in connection with the following activities:

Humanitarian Projects and Support for the Cuban People – 1) Persons traveling in connection with activities that are intended to provide support for the Cuban people, such as activities of recognized human rights organizations; and 2) persons whose travel transactions are directly related to certain humanitarian projects in or related to Cuba that are designed to directly benefit the Cuban people. Licenses authorizing transactions for multiple trips over an extended period of time are available.
Free-Lance Journalism – Persons with a suitable record of publication who are traveling to Cuba to do research for a free-lance article. Licenses authorizing transactions for multiple trips over an extended period of time are available for applicants demonstrating a significant record of free-lance journalism.
Professional Research and Professional Meetings – Persons traveling to Cuba to do professional research or to attend a professional meeting that does not meet the requirements of the relevant general license (described above). Licenses authorizing transactions for multiple trips over an extended period of time are available.
Religious Activities – Persons traveling to Cuba to engage in religious activities that are not authorized pursuant to a religious organization’s specific license. Licenses authorizing transactions for multiple trips over an extended period of time are available.
Public Performances, Athletic or Other Competitions, and Exhibitions – Persons traveling to participate in a public performance, athletic or other competition or exhibition. The event must be open for attendance, and in relevant situations participation, by the Cuban public, and all profits from the event after costs must be donated to an independent nongovernmental organization in Cuba or a U.S.-based charity with the objective, to the extent possible, of benefiting the Cuban people.
Amateur or semi-professional athletes or teams traveling to participate in Cuba in an athletic competition held under the auspices of the relevant international sports federation. The athletes must have been selected for the competition by the relevant U.S. sports federation, and the competition must be one that is open for attendance, and in relevant situations participation, by the Cuban people.
Activities of Private Foundations or Research or Educational Institutions – Persons traveling to Cuba on behalf of private foundations or research or educational institutes that have an established interest in international relations to collect information related to Cuba for noncommercial purposes. Licenses authorizing transactions for multiple trips over an extended period of time are available.
Exportation, Importation, or Transmission of Information or Informational Materials – Persons traveling to engage in activities directly related to the exportation, importation, or transmission of information or informational materials.
Licensed Exportation – Persons traveling to Cuba incident to marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied delivery, or servicing in Cuba of exports that appear consistent with the export or re-export policy of the Department of Commerce and are not authorized by the general licenses described above.
Applying for a Specific License
Persons wishing to travel to Cuba under a specific license should send a letter specifying the details of the proposed travel, including any accompanying documentation, to the Licensing Division, Office of Foreign Assets Control, U.S. Department of the Treasury, 1500 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20220. Academic institutions wishing to obtain one of the two-year specific licenses described above should send a letter to the same address requesting such a license and establishing that the institution is accredited by an appropriate national or regional accrediting association. Religious organizations wishing to obtain one of the specific licenses described above should send a letter to the same address requesting such a license and setting forth examples of religious activities to be undertaken in Cuba.

The United States maintains a broad embargo against trading with Cuba, and most commercial imports from Cuba are prohibited by law. Sales of items in certain sectors, including medicine, medical devices and supplies, and agricultural commodities, have been approved for export by specific legislation. The Department of the Treasury may issue licenses on a case-by-case basis authorizing Cuba travel-related transactions directly incident to marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied delivery, and servicing of exports and re-exports that appear consistent with the licensing policy of the Department of Commerce.
Additional information may be obtained by contacting:

Licensing Division
Office of Foreign Assets Control
U.S. Department of the Treasury
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Treasury Annex
Washington, DC 20220
Telephone [phone]; Fax [phone]

Internet users can also log onto the Department of Treasury's OFAC website.


Should a traveler receive a license, a valid passport is required for entry into Cuba. The Cuban government also requires that the traveler obtain a visa prior to arrival. Attempts to enter or exit Cuba illegally, or to aid the irregular exit of Cuban nationals or other persons, are contrary to Cuban law and are punishable by stiff jail terms. Entering Cuban territory, territorial waters or airspace (within 12 miles of the Cuban coast) without prior authorization from the Cuban government may result in arrest or other enforcement action by Cuban authorities. Immigration violators are subject to prison terms ranging from four years for illegal entry or exit to as many as 30 years for aggravated cases of alien smuggling.

The Cuban Air Force shot down two U.S.-registered civilian aircraft in international airspace in 1996. As a result of this action, the President of the United States and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued an “Emergency Cease and Desist Order and Statement of Policy,” which allows for vigorous enforcement action against U.S.-registered aircraft that violate Cuban airspace. For additional information on restrictions on aircraft flying between the United States and Cuba, see the FAA's web site.

For current information on Cuban entry and customs requirements, travelers should contact:

Cuban Interests Section (an office of the Cuban government)
2630 16th Street NW
Washington, DC 20009
Telephone [phone]
Fax [phone]

Consular Section (part of Cuban Interests Section)
2639 16th Street NW
Washington, DC 20009
Telephone [phone]/8615
Fax [phone]

In an effort to prevent international child abduction, many governments have initiated procedures at entry/exit points. These often include requiring documentary evidence of relationship and permission for the child's travel from the parent(s) or legal guardian not present. Having such documentation on hand, even if not required, may facilitate entry/departure.

Temporary Sojourn License
Exports of aircraft or vessels on temporary sojourn to Cuba will be considered on a case-by-case basis by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Temporary sojourn licenses are not available for pleasure boaters. Additional information is available at the Bureau of Industry and Security website. Pursuant to an Executive Order issued after the 1996 shoot-down incident, boaters departing south Florida ports with the intention of entering Cuban territorial waters also must obtain permission in advance from the U.S. Coast Guard. The U.S. Coast Guard provides automated information at 1-800-582-5943.

Information about dual nationality or the prevention of international child abduction can be found on our web site. For further information about customs regulations, please read our Customs Information sheet. For further information about dual nationality and Cuba, please see below (“Special Circumstances”).

SAFETY AND SECURITY: The security environment in Cuba is relatively stable and characterized by a strong military and police presence throughout the country. Demonstrations against the United States are more infrequent and smaller than in past years, are always approved and monitored by the Cuban Government, and are peaceful in nature. The same cannot be said about state-organized demonstrations against domestic opposition groups, which can be violent. American citizens should avoid all demonstrations. Cuba tightly restricts the departure of its citizens yet illegal departures are still common. Hijackings of vessels for people to depart Cuba are much less common. The United States Government has publicly and repeatedly announced that any person who hijacks (or attempts to hijack) an aircraft or vessel (whether common carrier or other) will face the maximum penalties pursuant to U.S. law, regardless of that person's nationality.

Cuban territorial waters are extremely dangerous and difficult to navigate, even for experienced mariners. It is not uncommon for multiple boaters and their passengers to run aground each year, often leading to the complete destruction and loss of their vessels. U.S. boaters who enter Cuban waters (legitimately or illegitimately) have encountered problems that required repairs and/or salvage; costs for both are significantly higher than comparable services in the United States or elsewhere in the Caribbean. For example, docking fees of up to ten dollars per hour have been reported, and Cuban authorities typically hold boats as collateral payment. U.S.-registered/flagged vessels belonging to U.S. citizens have been permanently seized by Cuban authorities. The quality of repairs in Cuba is frequently not up to U.S. standards , with the result that repaired vessels may not be sea-worthy and pose a danger to their crews and passengers once taken to sea. Repairs take significantly longer in Cuba than they would in the United States due to lack of the most basic materials and to bureaucratic impediments. Boaters are often confined to their boats while repairs are made. Boaters can be detained while Cuban authorities investigate the circumstances of their entry to Cuba, especially if their travel documents are not in order or they are suspected of illegal activities. Mariners and their passengers should not navigate close to Cuban territorial waters without possessing a valid passport, unless seeking a safe port due to emergencies. The ability of the U.S. Interests Section to assist mariners in trouble is extremely limited.

The transfer of funds from the United States to Cuba to pay for boat repair and salvage is subject to restrictions codified in U.S. law relating to commercial transactions with the Government of Cuba. A Department of the Treasury license is required for such payments and applicants should be prepared to provide documentary evidence demonstrating the emergency nature of the repairs. U.S. credit or debit cards, personal checks, and travelers’ checks cannot be used in Cuba so boaters should be prepared to pay for all transactions in cash. It is difficult to transfer money to Cuba and travelers have frequently been required to spend several hundred dollars for transportation to Havana to receive transferred funds.

For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department of State, at the Bureau of Consular Affairs’ website, where the current Travel Warnings and Travel Alerts, as well as the Worldwide Caution, can be found.

Up-to-date information on safety and security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll-free in the U.S. and Canada, or for other callers, a regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).

The Department of State urges American citizens to take responsibility for their own personal security while traveling overseas. For general information about appropriate measures travelers can take to protect themselves in an overseas environment, see the Department of State’s pamphlet A Safe Trip Abroad.



There's even more at the link: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

[A Simple Game]

67. Sounds like you agree with me that going to Cuba is not that easy, at least for most people.

It's not as easy as going to Canada, Mexico, or Europe, and you know it. You say that "Americans have been going to Cuba for decades, legally, by way of Canada or Mexico". I knew that people took those and other routes. Did you also notice that I said "directly from the US to Cuba". I also know that Americans as a rule ask Cuba not to stamp their passports. I wonder why? You imply that Cuba is the bad guy in this "fight", I merely want to point out that we are not blameless, or even taking the high road.

I did skim your education material. Doesn't look like I would qualify, no relatives, not a student or teacher, not an athlete, not a diplomat, I am agnostic so no church groups, and I don't own a boat large enough to cross 90 miles of open ocean.

What irks me is the fact that we are still punishing Cuba for allowing the Soviet Union to do the exact same thing we did and are still doing in Europe and it has reached the point of being ridiculous. And the main reason they allowed the Soviets to place the missiles in the first place was because of our trade embargo.

Now with Cuban leadership change imminent it is time we should be embracing Cuba. Instead we continue to let a small minority of people dictate to the entire country what our policies concerning Cuba will be.

And besides implying I was a liar in post #50 you also accused me of "hiding facts in the message portion". Do you know that the subject line has limited space? My post #48 had two sentences, together they would not have fit in the subject line, the sensible thing to do would be to put one complete sentence in the subject line and one in the message, that is what I did. Nothing nefarious about it.

[MADem]

68. Sounds like you're trying to pretend you didn't first say that people couldn't go at all,

when you asked how another poster felt about that false premise--and then tried to pretend that it was "just" a question and you didn't say what you said. You didn't ASK about people not going, you asked how another poster felt about something you presented as a fact! What does Judge Judy say about peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining? Come off it.

Did I ever say it was as easy to visit Cuba as going to Canada or Mexico? Ever? Once? Why no, I did not. Not one time, ever. So don't do the "faux scolding" routine like you're pointing some shit out to me that I didn't know. Try reading what people write if you want to reply to them, whydoncha? Did you even bother to read the links I provided about DIRECT FLIGHTS to Cuba? FWIW, Cubans don't stamp passports--Americans don't have to "ask." That's in one of the links I provided.

You REALLY wanna go to Cuba? You can hook up with a religious group if you'd like, you don't necessarily have to be a member of the faith, and go do some humanitarian aid delivery. Or get off your ass, do a little freelance journalism (even blogging will work), and apply for authorization from the State Department and then see if Cuba will issue you a visa (don't hold your breath) and welcome you with open arms. Bring MONEY when you go, lots of it, because you'll need it. They'll want you to buy non-US "health insurance" before they let you in, and be prepared to pay five hundred bucks cash per day if you have to be hospitalized. They'll tax the living shit out of any medications or oddball items in your luggage, too, if they don't just steal the stuff. If you bring too much stuff, or stuff they don't want you to have, they'll take it from you. You'll pay a tax to get in, and a tax to leave, too. Hey, they need money.

I didn't imply that you were a liar, I said flat out that you didn't tell the truth. And you did hide facts in your message portion, that were in contradiction to your subject line--many people here only read the subject lines, and your comment was what is termed DELIBERATELY OBTUSE.

What's this "with Cuban leadership change imminent" of which you speak? Do you have information on the health of Raul Castro that the rest of us aren't clued in on? You do know that Fidel is RETIRED, don't you, and his brother is running the joint, and has been for some time?

You can be irked all you want about the Cuban exiles and the Puerto Ricans in PR, who throw money at politicians to keep Cuba out of a big chunk of the western hemispheric economic loop. Bottom line, though, is that every President since LBJ has had a chance to change that paradigm, and they've not done so--even in their second terms (for those that had second terms). You have to wonder what intelligence briefings they are getting that cause them to say "I will consider lifting the embargo" on the campaign trail, and then, once elected and getting CIA briefings, say "I don't think so." It's not an ideological "Commies v. Democracy" issue--it hasn't been for decades. I think Castro misbehaved a long time ago, and did something for which he's unforgiven. When he dies, we'll see.

Cuba's system is a mess. Their infrastructure is crumbling, their people are underutilized, they are inefficient, they lack basic necessities, like sufficient food, decent housing, and consumer goods, and it is for these reasons that Raul is opening up the real estate market and slowly loosening the government stranglehold on other money-generating propositions. The only reason they continue to stumble along is due to their European-Canadian tourism, and their Doctors for Oil deal with VZ.

Stop playing games. It's childish behavior, and it doesn't earn you any points in the forthrightness or veracity departments. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and back up your assertions with documentation, when asked. That's how discussions work.

[A Simple Game]

69. No, I didn't say that people couldn't go.

You even admitted that when you accused me of "hiding the facts in the message portion". Remember that, it was in your message, right after you called me a liar in the subject line. Kind of DELIBERATELY OBTUSE to post it that way wasn't it, why didn't you put it all in the subject line, you expected me to do it that way? My post was meant as "just" a rhetorical question, just to remind the poster that we are not so perfect either. Apparently you think we are above reproach, so be it, I doubt I could change your mind.

Truthfully, the first link you provided did not load, all I saw was "US grants license to 8 new airports to ho..." in the tab heading. I didn't try the others. I read the text you copied, that told me I was not able to travel to Cuba. You tell me I could go if I wanted to be deceitful and pretend to be religious. I don't work that way nor would I probably want to be around that type for very long. I do remember reading about easing of restrictions, but that has been recent. Things weren't always so easy, not that I would call it easy now.

Raul is 80 years old, perhaps imminent was a poor choice, how about within this decade.

We are trading partners with almost every country we have been in war with. But you think Castro misbehaved a long time ago so Cuba is the odd country out. As for the Presidents not changing the policy? I think it's because Florida is a pivotal state and none want to take a chance on losing any votes there. I think it is political advisers, not CIA advisers that are the reason.

We agree! Cuba's system is a mess, although they do some things well. We could both benefit from a trade agreement.

You need to stop calling people names and accusing them of bad behavior, it's very caustic and doesn't give others a good impression of you. Then again maybe that's what you want, keep it up, it's working. If you were trying to impress me, you did.

Conversation done, go impress someone else.

[MADem]

75. Your subject line was deliberately misleading--otherwise you would have asked

"How do you feel about your government making it DIFFICULT to go" or words to that effect.

The link is fine--check your computer.

You don't have to necessarily be deceitful and pretend to be religious, there are many charitable organizations that are not religious that do work in Cuba, but the religious ones are probably easiest to access. Of course, that's not the only way to get there, but nice try. You could organize an art exhibition, coach an athletic team, be the road manager for a bunch of musicians, meet a third national relative there (yes, that's one of the ways to do it, if you have a foreign relative, you can meet them in Cuba)...it's not my job to clear the path for you--do your own homework.

Since Raul is the Baby Brother, and Fidel just won't die, absent illness, who knows how long he will last? Look at John McCain's mama--she still has all her marbles and she will be a hundred next year. Those Castros apparently have decent genetic code, too.


I disagree with your 'pivotal state' premise, even while I don't argue that FL is a pivotal state. Florida is full of hispanics, but most of them nowadays are not Cuban, don't give a shit about Cuba, and in fact, some of them resent the hell out of Cubans. The US policy towards Cuba has remained intact even with Presidents who never had a hope in hell of winning FL, or who didn't need it to win, or who could have won it without making a commitment vis-a-vis Cuba. And there's always the second term, when presidents have an opportunity to cement their legacy--but none of them took that big step. There's simply more to it than we know. Exploding cigars are a pretty big step for a nation to take to try to off a leader; there has to be a pretty big backstory there. If Fidel dies, and magically, relations are restored, that will be a strong clue.

I don't call people names, and I don't 'accuse them of bad behavior.' I will call it as I see it, though. If you're taking it the wrong way, check your mirror. Have a nice day.

[PoliticAverse]

65. A guy who lives in my town went to Cuba with his church group...

Here is the State Department's list of rules for Cuba visits:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

As we are not at war with Cuba any travel restrictions on US residents to Cuba
strike me as at the least stupid if not unconstitutional (but courts have upheld
the constitutionality).

[Imajika]

49. Cuba is in the process of firing hundreds of thousands of government workers..

Cuba is a poverty ridden basket case. I suppose it's fair that everyone shares in the misery, but that's a pretty low bar to set for a "revolution".

[Mika]

53. How well would the US be doing under an extra territorial embargo.

Your post really reveals the munchausen by proxy syndrome that is US policy against Cuba.

Strangle the victim, and then claim to have the cure.

The US has a myriad of policies specifically designed to cripple their economy, but yet Cuba still has high ratings on all social indices (some in the top global rankings).


Yes, Cubans do share. They have devised ingenious solutions to the problems inherent of a small Caribbean island economy that is being subjected to extraterritorial sanction.


Rather than point out the hostility, corrupt, and hypocritical policy and impact of such policies, instead, you point to the victims of this policy and seem to be blaming them.

I have family there.... your uninformed pronouncement of their nation is distasteful.

---

| | | | |

[Imajika]

55. I'm completely against the economic/trade embargo...

Its been used as an excuse by Castro to explain away the utter failure of his communist "revolution" for far too long.

If the embargo is lifted, I fully expect the Cuban communist party to be swept aside rather quickly. Cuban marxism is dying, but it survived longer than it should have due to the stupid US embargo.

[MADem]

60. Succinctly stated. Accurate, too. nt

[Billy Burnett]

74. It's not an "excuse". It is reality.

As mentioned elsewhere, victimize a nation's people, and then blame them. :crazy: