Can your conscience live with killing the bill?

[babylonsister]

http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/12/23/125211/55

Can your conscience live with killing the bill?

by deaniac83, Wed Dec 23, 2009 at 12:52:11 PM EST


There has been a loud pronouncement by self-proclaimed representatives of the left-netroots that the Senate bill must be killed in order to be saved. Or improved. Or some such thing. Never mind the absolute incoherence of logic in the argument of killing the patient to save it. I don't want to talk to Adam Green or Jane Hamsher. I want to talk to the people they talk to. The people that sign their petitions. I want to share my feelings about what I feel I would be doing if I had a hand in killing the bill.

If they are successful in killing the bill (which, thankfully, they won't be since among the progressives in Congress, cooler heads seem to be prevailing), health care/insurance reform is over for more than a decade. This idea that we can bring it back next year or in 2011 with some sort of a left-right populist alliance if we fail now is bullshit. Before you sign one of their petitions to kill the bill, let me remind you what you will be putting your name to:

Killing $10 billion (in the Senate bill) or $14 billion (in the House bill) of community health center funding. Vermont's independent Senator Bernie Sanders - perhaps the most progressive member of Congress has secured this funding in the Senate bill. The Senate version of this bill will make primary care affordable and accessible for 25 million more Americans than is currently the case. Today, the United States is one of the worst performing countries in terms of deaths from preventable illness. In fact, 100,000 more people die in the United States from preventable illness every year than would if we had the same rate as the top performing countries. Community Health Centers cut down on those preventable deaths. People have a doctor to go see. They get medication at a cheap, affordable rate. Community Health Centers save lives. This is real health care. I can't live with signing off on something that would kill a law that could save as many as 100,000 lives a year.

Denying health insurance coverage to 31 million additional Americans. 31 million. 45,000 Americans die every year due to the lack of health insurance coverage. If we kill the bill, we damn those people to death. Every year. For ten years. Maybe more. I might be one of these people one of these years. You might be one of these people one of these years. No. I can't say no to expanding coverage and saving lives simply because coverage isn't being expanded my way. I can't deny 31 million people health insurance to stroke my ego. I can't have a chance to change that 45,000 number downward and be proud that I stopped that - however imperfect - effort. I can't have that on my conscience.

Refusing the best chance to create pressure on insurance companies to lower premiums: People in the kill-bill crowd like to loudly denounce the mandate as immoral because the government is forcing you to purchase a private product. And it might be a crappy product. And you are forced to buy it no matter how much it costs or the IRS will fine you, and if you can't pay it, arrest you and put you in jail. This is all mostly misleading. The so-called mandate is reasonably weak (and quite reasonable, actually) - one is exempt from it if their premium costs more than 8% of their income. So to recap, no one is forced to buy coverage that is unaffordable. Secondly, insurance companies will know that if they want the people who may not have employer provided coverage to actually buy it from them, they are going to have to offer products in that reasonable price range, or people will be able to opt out, and there is no force of law or fines holding them captive. If insurance companies want a captive audience, they will have to provide coverage within that affordable range. Remember also that insurance companies are not allowed to charge one more based on income. That means that if they want a family making $75,000 (who get no subsidies) to be subject to the mandate, they have to provide coverage with all the required medical services covered for $6,000 a year or less for every family. What's more, the bill eliminates co-pays and deductibles for recommended preventive care, bring your cost down even further. This bill will also mandate that insurance companies spend 85% of their premiums if they are in a group market (or 80% in individual markets) on actually delivering care. If they don't, they will have to issue you a refund!

No, I will not be helping kill this opportunity to create a downward pressure on both premiums and actual cost of care to individuals and families.

snip//

No. I have made up my mind. I will not let my ego, or my anger against Joe Lieberman, or my agony for the public option turn into a destructive force against a huge step forward in health insurance reform.

I know what the retorts are. What about handing over all these customers to the insurance companies with a mandate? Am I willing to have that on my conscience? Yes I am, if that means I don't have to have all these above things on there.

I cannot live with killing the bill. My conscience won't let me. So no, I won't be joining the status quo caucus - on the right, or on the left.

[derby378]

1. I can respect that...

...but my own conscience will not let me rest easy with Big Insurance now firmly in the driver's seat of healthcare in America.

That said, you're a good kid. :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

2. Yes! Because none of those "liberal" clauses will stand. Only the MANDATE will be a sure

thing with regard to the Middle Class flipping the bill. :thumbsdown:

[donco6]

3. Gosh, I guess it's too big to fail now.

It's all moot anyway, there's no way it's going to fail.

[last1standing]

4. Yes. Can you live with your conscience when these people find they can't afford care?

Millions of people are going to get some basic form of health insurance then find they can't actually afford to use it because of the exorbitant cost of copays and deductibles. What happens to these people then? They will be forced to either forgo care/prescriptions or be forced into bankruptcy.

Do you think our "progressive" president will at least make the new debtors' prisons minimum security? :shrug:

[polpilot]

12. If this bill fails I will personally provide a policy for those 31 million for $1 per day.

Coverage under my policy will be limited however. Like my current policy almost nothing will be covered.

[last1standing]

13. So you're offering the same coverage with a much lower buy in.

I wish you had made this offer to congress ages ago.

[polpilot]

17. I'm giving them 'a policy'. My staff will determine what I pay out. You know

like it is now. But you can say you have 'coverage'. Just trust me. It will be O.K.

[last1standing]

20. Sounds like now... and after.

I can't find any provision stating that insurance companies must pay for any more than they do now. They just have to come up with different excuses. I especially like the one where they can't drop you for illness but they can do it if they claim fraud. That way they can deny coverage AND fuck up your credit rating.

[MercutioATC]

5. Absolutely.

This is NOT something that we'll have the opportunity to build on. This is what we're going to get. It's the final product. It's woefully inadequate, it's a huge giveaway to health insurance companies, and it mandates enrollment while doing virtually nothing to control costs....and that's just the beginning of the bad that is this bill.

At the same time...despite the statements of the bill's proponents...there's absolutely NO reason why this bill can't be thrown out and the discussion begun anew. Yes, it would represent a delay of 6-12 months, but the notion that if the current bill is killed that HCR would have to wait 20 or more years is laughable.

Try in reconciliation, but if that doesn't produce something resembling good legislation, kill it and start again.

[babylonsister]

6. You are delusional if you think anyone would start over on this

and waste an additional 6-12 months when this admin needs to concentrate on jobs. If this doesn't happen now, wait a decade or more. I don't think we can afford to do that.

And how do you know there will be no opportunity to build on this? Further, they still have to go to conference with the House.

[MercutioATC]

9. I vehemently disagree.

Legislative agenda is set by the Legislature (Dem majority) and heavily influenced by the White House (again, Dem). Had the Dems in Congress had spines or had Obama provided the slightest bit of leadership on the issue, we wouldn't be in this position. The issue isn't time, it's will...and stating that we'd have to "wait a decade or more" if this bill fails is solely a statement of will.

If Congress has the will, they have the time.

[quiller4]

28. Thank you. You are so-o-o-o right.

[bvar22]

30. You are arguing AGAINST yourself.

On one hand, you say they will NEVER be able to go back and start over.

OTOH, you argue that they WILL go back and make it better? :shrug:

[babylonsister]

31. Bills passed can be improved upon. If there's nothing to improve

upon, where does that leave us? This is the year Obama had to get this done. Next year, the Dems plan on attacking other crucial issues, like unemployment, plus gear up for elections (unfortunately). There's no time left imo.

[bvar22]

36. And what got done...

is the permanent enshrining of the For Profit Health Insurance Industry as the gateway to Health Care in the USA with a mandated Buy In and NO Public Alternative.

Its going to be difficult to adjust this foundation so that it benefits the consumer.

But I'm sure the Democrats are going to go back and fix it, right after they go back and fix NAFTA and the Patriot Act as promised.

We are going to be forced to live with what the Democrats have done, but pardon me if I don't attend the Victory Celebrations or march in the Happy Parade, or congratulate ANY of the Centrists (including Obama) for their courage and leadership. They HAD a huge mandate for "CHANGE", but sold us the same old "Uniquely American" For Profit bullshit.

Harry Reid said today, "I don't see this as Democrats vs. Republicans. I saw 60 courageous Senators stand up against the Corporations."
It was enough to make this old FDR Democrat puke.

[derby378]

7. I don't think starting over would take 6-12 months...

It could happen in 6-12 days if enough Senators have the proper motivation. Like a desire to get re-elected.

[MercutioATC]

11. BINGO!!

We own Congress and the White House.

If they want a better bill, this is a slam-dunk. They CAN make it happen...and in relatively short order.

[neverforget]

41. We may "own" Congress but the lobbyists write the checks

Money speaks louder than the People unfortunately.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

44. I would be happy to kill the bill if :

A little one page band-aid bill was passed in it's stead that said:

Until we can get our heads out of our collective asses, there is open Medicare enrollment for the uninsured with premiums on a sliding scale according to income and Medicaid will also be expanded. Oh, and as of now, no caps of any kind, no prior conditions, no rescission. Medical Loss ration is 90/95% until we can pass a major reform bill.

The put it away and forget about it for the next generation.

[Armstead]

8. Absolutely. But the goal is to improve -- not kill....The scam being passed bothers my conscience

Almost all of the helpful things in this bill could be passed without the poison pills that are going to undermine real reform and will perpetuate the domonance of private insurance companies.

I would much prefer to see them deal with the immediate problems for many people now, and put together a long range plan that actually helps people for real with real options and systemic reforms.

[Cha]

10. Thanks, babylonsis..another reasoned post from

deaniac on the Health Care Reform Bill.

[Better Believe It]

14. Killing a handout to the insurance industry would be just as easy as killing the bankster bailouts.

I really fail to understand how any progressive can support the Health Insurance Industry/Big Pharma Protection Act.

I suppose one could pretend it's better than nothing and will help more people than it hurts. Nothing like a trip to fantasyland!

[MadHound]

15. Can your conscience live with destroying the middle class and limiting women's rights?

We should kill this bill. Sadly, at this late date that's not going to happen. I hope you're ready to reap what has been sown.

[Clear Blue Sky]

16. Yes. Just do it right.

[Liberation Angel]

18. K&R - There are MANY Things that are very progressive in these bills we should support

If we keep tearing down the dems and the president and fall for the republican talking points fed to the left, then we will not be able to get a bill and improve it (if we lose the Congress and the Senate because the chorus of naysayers say NOTHING would be better than this bill _THAT is what the rethugs want)

Right now there is too much good in this bill to kill it. You should not do the baby/bathwater thing when good things are coming incrementally with this. Obama is no fool, he knows there is good here (and bad) but the good outweighs the bad just as with Obama's policiies in general.

I support the efforts to get the ublic op
For poor folks, the folks I work and live with, this bil is too good to kill. For unions and others who will get taxed higher for better policiies I feel bad, but they at least (many of them, if they hace cadilac coverage altho i hate that term) have jobs where many of those to be covered have practivally NOTHING. If it is a part of their income as a benefit why should it no be taxed when hell they tax unemployment benefits?

Anyway, I am not screaming happy with the bill but I am impressed with much of it. It WILL help my family a lot and will not be as great for my rich relations.

Thanks for posting this babylonsister!

[Adelante]

43. The very truth

If we keep tearing down the dems and the president and fall for the republican talking points fed to the left, then we will not be able to get a bill and improve it (if we lose the Congress and the Senate because the chorus of naysayers say NOTHING would be better than this bill _THAT is what the rethugs want)

:thumbsup:

[depakid]

19. The article starts from a false premise (among other inaccuracies)

We should ALL be able to live with taking the ideologues and extortionists in the Senate out of the equation and enacting responsible legislation through the 50 +1 reconciliation process, since the central concerns surrounding this legislation involve CBO estimates on how it affects the budget deficit.

[SoFlaJet]

21. It's real easy to say you want it killed if you listen only to what is being said about it

by the pundits. Go and watch some democratic senators talk about all the good in the bill over on C-Span and see if they can change your mind or enlighten you a little better. this ain't a done deal, there is more to come to try and make this bill better going forward. So no sis, I am supporting this president and my fellow democratic senators and house members in it's passage.

[Goldstein1984]

22. My conscience can't let me support this bill

I don't believe it is reform, it's more corporate welfare.

[quiller4]

29. I suggest you see how far that argument goes with anyone covered

by the expansion of Medicaid. Only the relatively comfortable can afford to oppose this measure.

[Goldstein1984]

34. There's too much wrong with it.

Corporate welfare
Penalty for not participating
No cost controls (%profit controls will just cause overall price to increase to maximize profits)

And if this passes, I don't believe anybody will have the courage to revisit it and improve it as promised. This will be what the people are stuck with.

[Odin2005]

23. Can your conscience live with supporting a fascist, misogynist, corporatist bill?

[glitch]

24. A new low. Thanks for posting. nt

[dcsmart]

25. K & R

[IndianaGreen]

26. Yes!

This bill is a big tax increase on the middle class!

[rhett o rick]

27. I dont think what we think matters one iota at this point. Rahmbo told us what the WH thinks of us.

[niceypoo]

32. This bill institutionalizes private health insurance

Probably forever. That is the disturbing part. What started out as a, 'health care bill,' is now referred to as, 'health insurance reform,' which is something else entirely.

[WeDidIt]

33. After the capitulation to Lieberman, I wanted to kill the bill

I cannot in good conscience advocate killing the bill now.

[niceypoo]

38. This is where I stand too but

I will wait to see what it looks like in the end. A lot of the toothlessness is being removed, most likely because of unexpected outrage from progressives. Boot licking never got anything changed and it never will.

[Avalux]

35. No - that's why I support it passing and I'm excited about it.

I choose to take the long view; realizing that this piece of legislation is a huge accomplishment and is just the beginning; with much work to do. It can be improved upon and expanded. We haven't even gone to conference yet, so those who are screaming and pulling out their hair are a wee bit premature.

The status quo is exactly what we get if this bill dies - and the Republicans will win. I can't live with that.

[hulka38]

37. Quick, setup as many straw men as you can before the buzzer goes off.

The opportunity costs of passing this bill that will not contain costs, billions of dollars in savings each year that could be used to help Americans with their health needs, far outweigh the good things in this bill. And yes, this bill feeds the private system that is largely responsible for the outrageously high if not unaffordable costs of health care in America. That's the bottom line. Very simple. It's not about grudges, ego, personalities, the things you like to focus on in your effort to paint opponents as irrational or lacking logic.

[jeanpalmer]

39. What they should have done

is focus on Community Health Centers run by the government. Do them as a pilot or demonstration projects. Start out small, assess them to see what works, what the costs will be. And then gradually expand them, or quickly expand them if they're popular, which they will be. Before you know it, we'd have a government run system that would provide good healthcare at the lowest cost. There'd be no insurance, no single payer, no options, no exchanges, no costly middlemen or bureaucratic structures -- just basic health care.

Start with basic healthcare, and over time add specialists, and finally take over the hospital system. Wipe out all the profit, not only on the middleman front but also on the provider front because providers are as big a problem as insurers. It would be a completely non-profit system.

The Community Health Centers funded in the bill still have the ability to charge a profit. We want to completely take profit out of the system.

While the Community Health Center concept is a nice concept, it's only funded at $10 billion over 10 years? That's almost nothing. And to get this measly sum, we have to agree to this monstrosity of a mandate system.

There's no reason why CHC funding has to be coupled with mandates. They're separate issues that can stand on their own and be voted on on their own. We don't need to consider a mandated system to start or fund CHC's. But that's the way this bill is being presented -- to get the few inexpensive goodies that are included in the bill, we have to vote in the monstrosity of mandates. Big mistake. If you really want these goodies, vote them in but leave the mandates out. The people are being jobbed that these things are all inseparable. But of course that's the way it has to be presented, because no one in his right mind would vote in mandates by themselves. The sweeteners, though very modest, are essential to fooling the public

So the best approach is kill this bill. Start over and focus on a government-run system. The mandate system doesn't start for another 4 or 5 years, so it's not as if we're losing some immediate benefit. There's a good chance the mandated system won't even make it to the starting line. They're not popular, and 4 years is a long time.

[Digit]

40. Yes

Absolutely

[GeorgeGist]

42. Yes ...

because it's a fraud. But do babble on, sister.