Well... This Will Be Popular... 'Please Don’t Call It Justice' - FDL

[WillyT]

Please Don’t Call It Justice
By: Peterr - FDL
Monday May 2, 2011 9:45 am

<snip>

“Justice has been done,” proclaimed President Obama last night.

I beg to differ.

Justice is not simply someone getting what they deserve. If that were justice, the Declaration of Independence would never have complained about King George III denying the colonies trial by jury. In far too many cases, this amounts to vengeance, not justice. “He did it, and deserved his punishment” may be a verdict and a sentence, but these two things alone are hardly justice.

“He had it coming” is not the language of justice.

Justice is about what society does, not what an alleged criminal has done. Justice is about giving fair treatment to the accused, no matter the enormity of the crime they are accused of, no matter the place in society of the accused, and no matter the place in society of the victims. Justice is about things like the rule of law and an opportunity to confront one’s accusers and challenge evidence. Justice is how society sets itself apart from those who perpetuate injustice. Justice is how society says to those who violate the community’s rules, “You may act this way, but we do not.”

Justice was not done last night in Pakistan.

Justice is not about death on a battlefield. However justified a war might be, to protect innocent people and prevent even more horrible violence from taking place, war is *not* justice. War is war.

“An eye for an eye” started out as a statement of justice, in laying down the proposition that the punishment for the guilty must be proportional to the offense they committed. Today, all too often, the meaning of this phrase has been perverted to become a justification for punishment apart from any kind of trial.

<snip>

More: http://firedoglake.com/2011/05/02/please-dont-call-it-justice/

:kick:

[gratuitous]

1. Everybody loves to see justice done

On somebody else.

[Modern_Matthew]

2. We are due beer and celebration money. nt

[LoZoccolo]

3. Fire Dog Lake: automatic unrecommend n/t

[WillyT]

5. Thanks For The Kick, LZ !!!

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

4. Fine.... Justice ATTEMPTED; Justified killing & Closure the result.

[dkf]

6. And if you can't take him alive leave him alone? Gimme a break.

[WillyT]

9. Wow... Stark Choices You Have There...

Just like a lot of law enforcement situations, if you cannot bring them to justice, you do what you have to. But by definition... it is not justice.

We have entire system for that.

:shrug:

[dkf]

13. This comes down to if you think we could have taken him alive.

I don't think so. Therefore the idea of justice as a trial is crazy to me so yes I do think it is that stark.

Do you honestly think we could have taken him alive? What is your basis? That he would have surrendered? He was given the opportunity and didn't do so. Are you thinking we could have tased him? Seriously?

[blondeatlast]

7. He declared war on the US. that makes him, by definition, not a civilain and

therefore the Rules of War and the Geneva Convention have jusridiction.

Good God, all it takes is a semester of Intro to Law--it's a 100 level course at community colleges. :banghead:

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. The usual nonsense from PUMA central

Pffffft.

[SidDithers]

10. ...

Sid

[DFab420]

11. FDL refuses to get off high horse and once again sounds tone deaf.

Justice was done.

Justice was served.

[WillyT]

14. So... Having Principles And Sticking To Them Is "High Horse", Huh ???

I understand that people like that are rare, just look at both political parties and many of their supporters.

It's much easier to bring the "tone" down to the lowest common denominator, yet that has always served us poorly.

So go out and get drunk, shout "USA, USA, USA..." endlessly, and in the mean time, other Americans will be trying valiantly (or in vain) to remind the rest of the country what this country is supposed to be all about.

High horse enough for ya???

:shrug:

[DFab420]

15. Yea because we shouldn't cheer the death of a man who murdered

2,977 victims?!

I am happy, but am I in the streets singing?..No

But do I understand why there are those who are?..Yes


Am I sanctimonious enough to insult those who are (in the streets) as being craven or beneath me? No.


Is FDL, and apparently you? Yes.

So I hope you feel better about who you are as a person, since you obviously feel you are better then those who are celebrating. When in fact you are equal to them in every way. They get to express their emotions in their way. They shouldn't have to explain themselves, or face judgement, from us or any others.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnaries]

12. Typical FDL. How many times can Hamsher jump that damn shark? nt

[Cali_Democrat]

17. I don't think this was written by Jane Hamsher. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

16. As to whether it was justice, would rest on whether Bin Laden fought back at being captured.

If he fired on the Seals, then to my way of thinking his death was justice, if he didn't fight back and they killed him in cold blood, that wouldn't be justice.

Bin Laden declared war against the U.S. and as such his life being forfeited fighting in said war was as just as anyone else losing their life in war.

War was never a court of law, only via the aftermath and/or removal from combating war can justice be placed in the courts' jurisdiction.

Thanks for the thread, WillyT.

[Taverner]

18. He's right, but you too are right - it won't be popular

And I think OBL had it coming...

But justice is not the right word

Catharsis, maybe, but not justice

Justice would have been if we caught him, tried him, and either locked him up forever, or went out back and shot him

[WillyT]

20. This Was A Part Of The Problem, Mixed Messages...

US team's mission was to kill bin Laden, not capture
WASHINGTON | Mon May 2, 2011 8:18am EDT

<snip>

May 2 (Reuters) - The U.S. special forces team that hunted down Osama bin Laden was under orders to kill the al Qaeda mastermind, not capture him, a U.S. national security official told Reuters.

<snip>

Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/binladen-kill-idUSN027979420110502

******************************************************************************************

And then this...

Official: Bin Laden Mission Was Kill Or Capture, Not Just Kill
By MICHAEL SCHERER
Monday, May 2, 2011

<snip>

Reuters’ Mark Hosenball is reporting that the U.S. special forces that raided Osama bin Laden’s compound Sunday were under orders to kill the terrorist leader, not capture him. But an administration official tells TIME that the report is not accurate.

“No U.S. forces go in and, if someone surrenders to them, will kill them,” the official says. “There was a presumption that it would likely end in a kill,” the official continued, citing the U.S. government’s expectation that Bin Laden would resist capture. “But to say that it was a kill mission is wrong.”

Later Monday, senior White House officials will hold an on-camera press briefing about the Bin Laden operation, and are expected to push back against the Reuters report, the official said.

In typical presidential findings with regard to al-Qaeda leaders, the term of art most often used is “capture or kill,” a phrase that puts little burden on U.S. forces to take precautions, or assume added risks, that would increase the chance of a live capture of the target.

<snip>

Link: http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/02/official-bin-laden-mission-was-kill-or-capture-not-just-kill/

:shrug:

:hi:

[TransitJohn]

21. Funnily enough, my daughter and I just had this conversation.

I had to think about it, then told her, "I would say that he didn't get justice, but that justice was done."