Osama bin Laden is dead. None of us were there when he died.

[MineralMan]

The debate about what he did or did not do, and why he was shot, is ridiculous. Without being there, holding the weapon, we had no role in the decision that was made. None. None of us flew to that compound on a helicopter, got involved in a firefight, fought our way to the third floor and confronted Osama bin Laden. None of us has any clue as to what transpired.

For us to blather on about what happened is simply ridiculous. The only fact we have is that Osama bin Laden is dead, shot by a member of the team sent there to deal with this man. The decision was made, in an instant, by one man, holding an automatic weapon. He made that decision, and bin Laden is now at the bottom of the Arabian sea.

We waste our time with these petty yammerings. Not one of us knows what happened, except that bin Laden is dead. He was shot to death by a person whose bravery exceeds that of a dozen of us. Not one person on any of these threads could qualify to be on the team that went there. Not one of us has the abilities, training, and skills of any of that team.

In my humble opinion, we need to quit this bickering and analysis of something about which we know next to nothing. The raid occurred. Osama bin Laden is dead. Time to move on to the next story, I think.

If you don't like this post, please read my signature line. You're welcome to contribute to the thread with your own opinion.

[cliffordu]

1. K&R.

[MineralMan]

2. Thanks. You may be the last, though.

I do expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[dionysus]

4. no one expects the spanish inquisition!

;)

[dionysus]

3. k&r

[DevonRex]

5. KnR.

Excellent post. :hi:

[Hissyspit]

20. Not really.

According to his logic, we don't know Osama bin Laden is dead.
We don't know his body is at the bottom of the sea.
We don't know who shot him.
We don't know who shot him is brave.

We weren't there. We didn't see it. President Obama wasn't there. He didn't see it.

And don't discuss the narrative that OTHERS are putting out there on a discussion board?

Come on now...

[MineralMan]

30. Thank you for sharing your opinion in this thread.

There appear to be many things you do not know. That is unfortunate. Perhaps you will learn the answers to those things one day.

[Hissyspit]

40. I know all kinds of things.

Including how to recognize invalid attempts at logic, deflecting techniques, and the difference between highly speculative hypothesizing or personal opinion and solid-fact based rational, empirical, analytical opinion.

[MineralMan]

44. I'm very glad you know all those things.

Since what I intended to do was to express my "personal opinion," as you say, then I do believe that I have done so. You write a pretty good sentence, by the way, all properly punctuated and grammatical. I congratulate you.

[Hissyspit]

76. "Just my opinion" is a cop-out for those who can't or won't support their opinions.

Another thing I know.

Yours is a tired old act.

[MineralMan]

79. No, it's just my opinion.

Yours appears to be that I'm some sort of side show performance. I don't see what that has to do with the subject, frankly.

[Hissyspit]

84. Of course you don't.

[Solomon]

138. Damn Mineral Man. Why do you even bother? LOL

Can't you get a clue from the name?

I respect you for trying, but it's not even necessary. LOL

[dionysus]

96. so is acting like an arbiter of truth and justice. good day.

[Hissyspit]

98. No it's not.

:eyes:

[dionysus]

100. well, yes... yes it is.

[Hissyspit]

103. I post logical arguments, ethical reasoning and supporting facts all the time.

His OP makes no sense. And you're joining him in cop-out arguments.

[dionysus]

110. no. you post your own point of view, as does the OP. your opinion is no more valuable than his.

[Hissyspit]

111. Oh, my god...

sigh...

[TK421]

133. this is one of those times I wish typing Excedrin would help

but....:(

[dionysus]

92. cling to it, teh bitter

[Hissyspit]

99. That all you got?

It's a dumb OP.

[dionysus]

101. well, as for myself, i'm out of bitter. can you spare any?

[Hissyspit]

105. It doesn't have anything to do with bitter.

And even if it does, so what?

[pimpbot]

118. Actually Obama wasnt there physically, but he saw it

The Seals had helmet cams, and the situation room was getting access to the operation.

[Hissyspit]

129. Reports are saying he did not see the kill.

And it's beside the point of my post, anyway.

[RagAss]

Dead as a fucking door nail !

[MH1]

6. K & R for sure, but

the bickering I've noticed is mostly from the usual suspects, who will never, ever accept anything that Obama does. Of course I might have missed a few threads.

[DevonRex]

10. You are correct, but add

the truthers to the mix.

[tekisui]

7. As long as the WH can get their story straight, we'll be fine. Backtracks

and contradictions only foment doubt and debate.

[quinnox]

8. Awww, its more fun to speculate

Party pooper.

[MadHound]

9. An excuse, and response, that is sadly American

We weren't at the slaughter of Native Americans, let's just move on. We weren't at the slaughter of African Americans, can't we just move on. We weren't at the slaughter of Vietnamese, please, let's just move on.

We keep moving on, never learning from our mistakes, repeating them in perpetuity.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fivepennies]

47. Wait ....

back in the good old days when Indians were being hunted down, penned up and whole villages were slaughtered, as far as the dominant popular culture was concerned, the only good Indian was a dead Indian anyway and they were hated as much as people today hate Osama. Different generation, that's all. Dehumanization and killing without mercy ~ it just keeps going like the energizer bunny.

Why?

[MineralMan]

55. Actually, no. The European settlers in this country systematically

engaged in genocide and destruction of the lives of the Native Americans they found here. They came as the "conquering heroes," and displaced an indigenous people because they had more advanced technology. It is a sad period of our history, and one for which I would be ashamed, except my forbears did not arrive here until after that period. Comparing them and that situation to the killing of Osama bin Laden is simply not a valid comparison.

I'm sorry, but the parallel doesn't exist.

[fivepennies]

62. The parallel is in the level of hatred evidenced

by the people to justify the brutalization of Arab countries in the name of one man. I guess that's why they dubbed Osama "Geronimo" for this extrajudicial killing.

And I would say that this is just one more sad period of our history. There have been more than a few.

[MH1]

93. You claim that people who are glad OBL is gone, justify the brutalization of entire countries?

That's quite a stretch and an extremely broad brush, isn't it?

[fivepennies]

120. Without the WTC attacks and

accusations (sans proof) that Bin Laden masterminded the whole operation, would Americans have accepted the idea of bombing of the length and breadth of Afghanistan into the stone age just to get him and his followers about whom we knew nothing except what we were told/sold? Would anyone have believed the memes put out by right wing radio hacks that Bin Laden had escaped Afghanistan and was holed up in Iraq with the his deadly gang of beheaders and therefore the Iraqi people were somehow a threat to us? Both countries were accused of harboring this man and both were attacked mercilessly.

And there's no end in sight, even though the wicked wit .. um, warlock is dead.

I'm just so tired of the blood and guts that seems almost hard wired into our national conscience.

OTOH, I do support the NATO action in Libya for its intended goal of protecting civilians from a murderous dictator rather than killing them ourselves like we've done in the two other wars. I see no conflict in what some would undoubtedly say are opposing positions.

[MH1]

134. there is so much fictionalized history in your post I don't know where to begin

but I guess I'd suggest you take a visit to Afghanistan sometime.

I don't recall the claim that OBL was being harbored in Iraq. Many other bogus claims, but not that one. And most of us here, who are pleased that OBL is gone, were screaming to the rooftops about the idiocy of invading Iraq (not to mention the lies told to justify it). Afghanistan is a little more nuanced but in any case, if there was any hope of a positive outcome for most of the people there, Bush royally fucked it up, and I doubt anyone, even Obama, is good enough to unfuck it. BUT, to claim we bombed .... or even attempted to bomb ... "the length and breadth of Afghanistan into the stone age just to get" OBL, is complete nonsense.

If you were a Jew in WWII Germany would you be decrying the 'blood and guts' mentality of the Allies? If you are a woman in Afghanistan who isn't completely enculturated to exist as some man's property, would you be that opposed to being freed, even a little bit?

[fivepennies]

139. No argument

that people here and everywhere protested the invasion of Iraq from the rooftops. It didn't stop them from doing it, did it? And I agree with you that even Obama can't unfuck it all. And maybe you'd agree with me that the people who are actually driving these wars are a few pay grades above even the president. Follow the money.

But what, exactly, would you say the people's approval of our invasion of Afghanistan was based on if not in retaliation for the attack on the WTC, which was in so many minds (excepting maybe the FBI) masterminded by OBL?

If I were a Libyan I'd be decrying the war my government is waging on family and friends and doing everything I could to get NATO to act on my behalf, just like the US and others did with regard to the Jews in Germany.

And heck, I think women should rule the world anyway. :evilgrin:

[MH1]

135. anyway, you didn't answer the question

there are those who don't support either war, who are nonetheless very happy that OBL has been removed as a cause of further conflict. Sure there's plenty more behind him but getting him was a big deal.

My first thought after realizing that I'd heard right and bin Laden was dead, was "hey, this should make it easier for Obama to keep his commitment to start pulling out of Afghanistan - GOOD!!". Yet, I don't agree at all with your description of that war. Where you get 'hate' from that I don't know.

[fivepennies]

140. I think Cicero said it best:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague."

What if the conflict originated inside the gates using an outside operative as enemy number one who could then be thrown under the bus once his usefulness had expired? I'm not defending OBL at all, I would have liked to have seen him captured, tried and convicted in a PUBLIC venue and then .... well maybe we'd even have a better idea if there are a few enemies inside the gates. Now we'll never know what he knew.

[Hissyspit]

59. It was "just their opinion."

Right?

[dairydog91]

15. Please don't tell me that you just equated the Trail of Tears to shooting a paramilitary asshat.

[MadHound]

25. Please reread my post for intellectual content,

Not for instant outrage. Perhaps you will get the point then.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Native Americans...African Americans...Vietnamese...Osama Bin Laden....

One of these things is not like the others.

[MadHound]

28. And another one who sees the point I'm making do a double back flip over his head. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

31. You seem to be saying that the slaughter of those groups and the killing

of OBL are similarly shameful/embarrassing moments in our nation's history. Killing OBL is neither shameful nor embarrassing. It's national defense.

[DevonRex]

19. You should rethink that post.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

32. I was going to comment that you don't seem to have explained your point here very well, but

don't know if I care to since people asking wtf you mean you simply insult as being obtuse or stupid. Since several posters missed your point, perhaps you didn't explain it well. I don't understand either how this is in any way a valid comparison.

OK, your turn to tell me I'm stupid rather than simply clarifying. :hi:

[DevonRex]

38. ...

[MH1]

91. You equate killing OBL with the genocide of Native Americans? That's sick.

[fivepennies]

141. I don't equate the killing of Osama with the genocide of

American Indians other than to say the people who anhilated villages full of Indian peoples used a similar thought process. Wars have always been based primarily on fear of the "other" and then come obligatory retaliations, so back and forth it goes.

[Dappleganger]

136. Oh wow.

Great straw man.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. A call on a discussion board not to discuss the story of the year

preceded by three paragraphs of opinion about that event. Yeah, in American politics, we always stand aside and let the trained experts do as they wish, that if of course, democracy!
Feel free to move on to the next story. The world is far from ready to do so.

[MineralMan]

16. I expressed my opinion. You have expressed yours.

Thanks for participating.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. I've got more! It is rude to go to Starbucks to say stop drinking

coffee to the customers. This is place has keepers, who own it. It is a discussion board.

[MineralMan]

39. It is a discussion board. That's why I posted my opinion here.

It is also why I thanked you for your opinion. Your opinion differs from mine. I'm glad you posted it. I disagree with it, but not with the idea that this is a discussion board. In fact, I'm engaging in the discussion.

As for your Starbucks reference, Starbucks is not a discussion board. It is a place that sells coffee drinks. Personally, I don't patronize Starbucks, but make my coffee at home. I find it more affordable, and I can brew it exactly to my taste. So, I cannot imagine why I would go to a Starbucks and tell people to stop drinking coffee. If they enjoy Starbucks coffee, they're free to buy their coffee there. It's not my choice, but there it is. If Starbucks were a discussion board, I might explain how much less expensive it is to brew your own coffee. It's not. I don't.

But this Starbucks discussion is off the topic. Wouldn't you agree?

[Bluenorthwest]

72. My opinion differs from yours in what way?

And the Starbuck's thing you know what that meant. It was not off topic. It was on point. Being cutesy pie about it does not fit your over all personality. It is rude to say on a discussion board that you do not own 'don't discuss the big news'. Clear enough for you?

[madinmaryland]

41. I think Starbucks coffee sucks and is way overpriced...

But yes, it is a discussion board.

[Bluenorthwest]

95. Their coffee is the worst!

But still, I'd not go into their room and try to stop the sipping. That's just uncalled for.

[TK421]

116. you must not agree with my opinion, but it is my opinion, so read my sigline n/t

[TK421]

131. forget talking to this one....waste of time and you'll never get those Ginsu knives n/t

[madinmaryland]

12. Well, this is a discussion board. We blather about and yammer on about

all sorts of crap, some important and some not so important. If people want to bicker about this, then so be it. Everyone has an opinion, and who am I to stifle someone else's opinion.

Oh, and un-recced.

[MineralMan]

18. Thank you for participating in this thread and for sharing your

opinion. I shared mine, and you shared yours.

[madinmaryland]

23. I would like to ask you why you seem to want to stifle the opinions of others

who you do not agree with. You tell people (DU'ers) to stop discussing a topic (OBL's) death, yet you then try and say that everyone should express their opinion.

Which is it, MineralMan?

[MineralMan]

26. I expressed my opinion regarding this. I don't really have

anything to add to it. I can't stifle anybody. I have no power to do that, as you can see. When I preface something with "In my humble opinion," I think that makes it very clear that I am merely expressing my opinion. How could I stifle anyone's expression of their own opinion.

Again, thank you for sharing your opinion on the matter. I have read it.

[madinmaryland]

37. Ok. So this is a thread to express one's own opinion, but not actually to debate the difference in

other's opinion.

It seems a little bit on the odd side, but it is your thread.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

50. Thank you. However, you seem to be trying to make me the

subject, rather than what I posted in the first post in the thread. Did you have any comments on the points in that post?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

56. No, sorry...

[Hissyspit]

70. I comment on the gist of your thread.

And then you made ME the subject.

[Hissyspit]

74. I commented on the points in the thread

and then you made ME the subject.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TK421]

86. "petty yammerings"

LOL...and you are here because ( insert answer here __________ )

[MineralMan]

48. Thank you. It is the thread I began.

I appreciate your participation in it. I'd welcome a discussion of the points I made. I have not seen such a discussion, though, in this thread.

[TK421]

that's because you're not looking for a discussion n/t

[MineralMan]

57. Please offer one. You can read my original post at the

top of the thread. With what part of it do you disagree, and why? We can have a discussion, but you have to first make a point that addresses something I said.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

71. You left off part of that sentence.

If you want to have a discussion about the original post you first have to address that post. We can't have a discussion, you and I, about the post without a topic.

As for who I am, I'm MineralMan here. If you'd like more information, you can see my profile. There's more information there.

[madinmaryland]

61. Have you actually read the original post that started this thread, because

you have yet to address any of the points that you made in this thread, that others are addressing.

It really seems that this just an attempt to start a flame war. Rather than take a swipe at a broad stripe of DU'ers (which I think is referred to as "calling-out"), you could have just make the point that we need to move on and not belabor what happened.

[MineralMan]

66. I'm calling out nobody. In fact, I've participated in some of the

threads discussing this event. If I'm calling anyone out, I'm calling myself out as well.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonLP24]

81. Douche...

:hide:

[madinmaryland]

90. Nice post, Barroid. Get the Ace Reporter on this, PRONTO!!!

:P

[TK421]

114. If you don't like my post, read my sigline....

[madinmaryland]

117. If you don't agree with my opinion...

:P

[TK421]

121. Nice post, Steinbrenner!!!

oops...was this too soon?

[madinmaryland]

127. Is that you, Michael Vick???

:hide:

[TK421]

128. you see a dog with me? of COURSE I'm not Vick!

[Hosnon]

14. Agreed. And I'm not convinced that any American wouldn't be justified in killing

him even were he begging for his life.

[patrice]

22. K&R

[Enrique]

27. what does our inferiority to the SEALS have to do with anything?

that seemed like a non-sequitur to me, although I agree none of us knows what happened and the details given by official sources are almost certainly lies.

[quinnox]

34. Its added to give more weight to his argument

The OP thinks by saying how bad-ass the SEALS are, that it makes his argument more compelling. It doesn't add any weight at all, but that is my guess is why he put it in there.

For example "The SEALS, who are super awesome, did this, so why even question it in the first place?"

[MineralMan]

64. No, that is not what I think.

The person (or persons) who fired had to make their way to that place. That requires a fairly good helping of bravery, I'd think. At the time the shot was made, some decision was made by the person who fired. I cannot imagine being in that position, frankly, because I cannot imagine how I would have gotten there. So, I do not know what factors went into the decision.

That is what I think. I'm always happy to tell what I think. You needn't feel responsible for explaining what I think.

Thanks for participating.

[MineralMan]

58. I think we can all agree that Navy seals are brave individuals.

They would not be in that position were they not. What is has to do with the situation is that I imagine that most of us, like myself, would not ever manage to get into the position the person who fired at Osama bin Laden was in. I cannot imagine myself in that situation. So, I cannot imagine the decision-making process that led to the decision to fire. I am not personally brave enough to take part in a raid of that type.

If you believe you are brave enough, then what factors do you think would go into a decision whether to fire or not? I can't imagine the situation, so I have no idea.

[Enrique]

68. ok, that makes sense

you are assuming the SEALs were the ones that made the decision to kill him. That possibility hadn't occurred to me. I assumed that decision had been made at the highest levels.

[MineralMan]

73. I'm sure the decision to pull the trigger was made by the SEAL

standing in the doorway. I doubt there's any question about that.

[Enrique]

80. you mean he wasn't given a direct order to kill him?

how can you be sure of something like that?

You're telling us that we don't know anything, but then you yourself are sure what the team's orders were?

[MineralMan]

85. I don't know what his orders were. Do you?

At some point, though, he made a decision to fire his weapon. The very point of my post was that we do not know what went into that decision, so we're unqualified to discuss it. We don't know his orders. We don't know what Osama did? We don't know the lighting in the room. We don't know much of anything about what happened at that particular moment, which is all I'm addressing in my original post.

I'm not talking about the planning or anything else. I'm talking about one member of this team and what led him to decide to shoot. I do not know. I assume you do not know. I assume than nobody on DU knows. So, how can we discuss it when we have none of the facts.

[TK421]

88. "So, how can we discuss it when we have none of the facts."

didn't you just ask me above why I didn't want to discuss this? Now, you are saying there would be no point discussing it because we have none of the facts....hmmmmmm VEWY INTERESTING!!!

Sooo....which is it? To discuss or NOT to discuss?

Or....are you here to talk about, absolutely nothing? I mean, there's nothing to discuss! RIGHT?

RIGHT?

[smirkymonkey]

145. I agree w/ you MineralMan, none of us has first hand knowledge of

what actually went down. It's all hearsay, no matter how much people wish the official story was the truth. Remember "Wag the Dog"? Sorry, it's just my nature to question everything unless I was a firsthand witness or have the undebateable truth. I don't know why so many people think that claiming anything different from what they have heard or read is a "conspiracy theory".

[Moondog]

33. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheManInTheMac]

36. As long as they don't retract the part about

him being dead, I really don't give a shit about what happened in there. And when you have the Navy S.E.A.L.s coming for you, you've made some really BAD life choices.

[Hissyspit]

46. "And when you have the Navy S.E.A.L.s coming for you, you've made some really BAD life choices."

I don't really agree completely with your post, but it IS funny.

[hayu_lol]

49. MM...you nailed it.

Thanks.

[Hissyspit]

69. If you don't know what happened in there

then how do you know whether to give a shit about it or not?

[Bonobo]

42. I strongly disagree.

Your "argument" basically is that we should shut up because we weren't there and the people that did it are all better and braver than us anyway -so they should not be doubted.

This is wrong on many levels. I think you are old enough and intelligent enough to know why without me telling you that.

[MineralMan]

77. You seem to be misunderstanding me.

The bickering and yammering I'm talking about is about the details of what happened. Did Osama resist? Did he reach for a weapon? That sort of thing. There are several discussions about those details nobody knows. Isn't that a bit ridiculous, since none of us were there? Don't you agree?

[Bonobo]

122. Yes, I agree with that. nt

[Chichiri]

43. K&R is overworked, in my opinion, but K&R.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. So, is someone qualified to comment if they auditioned to be a

Seal, once, decades ago, but did not make the cut? I've heard that level of experience does qualify a person to opine. How about if they read lots of books about Seals? What about the recording artist, Seal? Is he allowed to talk about it?

[MineralMan]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't take your point.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you perfectly.

[Exilednight]

52. Bullshit. We, as responsible citizens of our country, have every right

to determine if the actions were just.

The official story, as per the WH, is that Bin Laden was unarmed but refusing to cooperate. I'm pretty sure that 20 plus well trained, in shape, and heavily armed men could persuade him, by force if necessary, to cooperate.

[fivepennies]

54. Obama wasn't there, either,

he also has to rely on second hand information. We're at the third and fouth hand level at best. Lets play telephone.

[Autumn]

60. This is a Message Board for people to express their opinion

and "yammer" about events of the day. That is why Skinner made this board, and on the seventh day he rested. It would really suck to have a message board where people post NOTHING, or just have posts to read that lecture them about petty yammerings. In my humble opinion, your post kind of defeats the purpose of this being a message board. If Skinner gets sick and tired of it he can close it don.

[MineralMan]

82. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

What's your opinion about whether anyone knew what Osama did in that room? Did he reach for a weapon or rush the SEAL? That's what this thread is about, and about how we cannot know any of that. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

[Autumn]

124. I doubt anyone will know what Osama did in that room.

unless they release the video. Until them people will speculate. And people use this message board to discuss what they think might have happened.

"The raid occurred. Osama bin Laden is dead. Time to move on to the next story," might be your wish, but other people want to discuss it. I imagine when the next story happens people will go on discuss that. Right now this is THE story.

There is a saying. those who know, don't talk, those who talk, don't know.

[Texasgal]

63. While I agree in context

it is a bit rude and condescending to regurgitate the obvious.

No one is stupid enough to know ALL the details about this operation.

I mean DUH!

[Canuckistanian]

75. "petty yammerings" sometimes bring down governments

And change the course of history. It all depends on the viewpoint.

One person's thoughtless comments can bring ruin to millions.

Yes, the Navy Seals had the "abilities, training, and skills" to kill an unarmed man. The question is, should they have?

[Hissyspit]

78. Our petty yammerings and speculation on DU over the years have come to some amazing

truths and correct conventional wisdom. Then it showed up in the MSM weeks or months later.

Guess we're supposed to stop all that now.

[Canuckistanian]

108. I agree generally

But there are times I like DU and times I don't. This is one of those times I don't.

Specifically, the raw revenge motives and that show up when a hated enemy is brutally killed.

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Canadian. We don't go for revenge. We go for justice.

[MineralMan]

87. Some DUers in this thread seem to have misunderstood the

original post.

The post was about the moment when the SEAL who confronted Osama bin Laden was faced with deciding what to to at that moment. I'm sure I was very clear in my description. Somehow, people seem to think I was talking about Barack Obama and his decision to send in the team, or about something else. I'm talking about a moment in time, and a decision made by the man with his finger on the trigger. Nothing else.

My opinion is that none of know what the facts are that caused him to decide to shoot, rather than to take some other action.

I regret that nobody has expressed an opinion on that. What did that young man face, standing in that doorway, and how did he decide to pull the trigger? That's the question.

Sadly, I have to leave for the evening now. I have a long workday tomorrow. I've been spending too much time here when I should be working, and I've fallen behind on a project.

[leftstreet]

94. Oh please

You know quite well that hardly anyone on DU is questioning what the SEAL team did or didn't do.

The debate has centered around things like extra judicial assassinations, war crimes, whether or not OBL died years ago, etc

:eyes:

[Lucian]

109. +1

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madinmaryland]

104. Oh, there was NO misunderstanding. Anyone who posts this...

"For us to blather on about what happened is simply ridiculous. The only fact we have is that Osama bin Laden is dead, shot by a member of the team sent there to deal with this man. The decision was made, in an instant, by one man, holding an automatic weapon. He made that decision, and bin Laden is now at the bottom of the Arabian sea.

We waste our time with these petty yammerings. Not one of us knows what happened, except that bin Laden is dead. He was shot to death by a person whose bravery exceeds that of a dozen of us. Not one person on any of these threads could qualify to be on the team that went there. Not one of us has the abilities, training, and skills of any of that team.

In my humble opinion, we need to quit this bickering and analysis of something about which we know next to nothing. The raid occurred. Osama bin Laden is dead. Time to move on to the next story, I think."

Read more at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1028791&mesg_id=1028791

That is an intentional post to inflame.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. The post says to discuss those things is silly

The OP's actual point seems to say 'don't talk about it if you were not there'. The OP does not call for a discussion of that moment of confrontation. It calls for no discussion of that moment.

[kestrel91316]

89. K & effin' R

[BobbyBoring]

97. My dear MM I wish it was that simple

but nothing is anymore. First report, Bin Laden was killed in a fire fight lasting hours. He was armed to the teeth and even sunk as low as using one of his wives as a "Human Shield". After things calmed down a bit, we learn he was unarmed, possibly even in bed. The story has changed so many times it's hard to tell what's what. AND, it all comes from the same source, The White House.

And then there's this :http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7366885.html

This article makes more sense than any I've seen thus far.

[Lucian]

106. YEEEEEEEEEEE HAWWWWWW!!!!1111111!111

WE DANG DUN GOT 'IM!





:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[TK421]

123. just how many pairs of socks do you think he had stuffed in that flight suit?

[xchrom]

112. Unrec

[theophilus]

113. If

"In my humble opinion, we need to quit this bickering and analysis of something about which we know next to nothing" becomes the rule, then so ends Democratic Underground. IMO

[mcar]

115. Excellent post

The armchair quarterbacks here are truly amazing. Thanks.

[Hissyspit]

130. There are plenty of people in this thread pointing out why it's not "excellent."

And it has nothing to with being armchair quarterbacks.

[fishwax]

119. do we know that he was shot by one man, who made that decision in that instant?

I'm not sure we know even that, although I haven't caught up with the latest of this evening's news ...

[gratuitous]

125. And none dare call it murder

Wave your flag as long as you can.

[Puregonzo1188]

132. By your standards can we ever question anything a government or a military does?

You're right--we don't know what happened which given some of the possibilities, i.e. that Osama was unarmed and shot in the head raise very disturbing questions. We can make reasonable conclusions on the evidence as it comes in and judge by standards of international law.

The idea that only the military can know what happened and therefore we must assume they were right is absolutely mind boggling.

[MineralMan]

146. We don't know. We will know more.

At the very beginning of this story, the facts were not clear. President Obama, in his remarks on the incident, provided only a broad framework of what happened. That was followed by a lot of people saying things they did not know were true, and by the media making up a lot of stuff that simply wasn't accurate. In time, we'll learn the details of what happened in Pakistan. Then, we can begin to discuss what actually happened, armed with some real knowledge.

When we start making judgments base on little information, we generally make lots of errors in that judgment. When we have facts, we can discuss the situation more clearly.

[Dappleganger]

137. Agreed.

And this is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't action in a war. OBL did declare war on us and brought it to us on our soil, remember?

[GeorgeGist]

142. You couldn't possibly know ...

" He was shot to death by a person whose bravery exceeds that of a dozen of us. Not one person on any of these threads could qualify to be on the team that went there. Not one of us has the abilities, training, and skills of any of that team."

[G_j]

143. this " moving on" stuff

is all the rage these days...

[Scurrilous]

144. Thanks.

K & R :thumbsup:

[AlinPA]

147. Well said. Thank you !