Bin Laden's daughter claims father was captured alive, then shot dead...

[Modern_Matthew]

The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members. 



According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos. 




http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/04/147782.html

[Leopolds Ghost]

1. Sounds believable, but who's reporting it?

[SugarShack]

280. How can this be when way back they say here he is no longer alive?

Flashback to some accidental truth from 2007.

Video:

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/242.html

[Cali_Democrat]

2. It's becoming apparent that the US never wanted a trial and was intent on summary execution

First he was armed and was using a woman as a human shield. Then it turns out he was unarmed and executed after he was captured.

Do you think the US government even wanted a trial?

[EFerrari]

5. Of course not. There's no way they could ever let him into a courtroom.

[Occulus]

265. Why? n/t

[JTFrog]

57. You mean as is being reported by the Government who said he wasn't even there?

:thumbsup:

[JoePhilly]

97. +1

[Solomon]

122. People jump and pounce right away on whatever they hear.

It's sad.

[alcibiades_mystery]

150. Correction: "on whatever they WANT TO hear"

A lot of people here want to hear that this brilliant and justified operation was an immoral cock-up, so they'll grasp on to anything that tells them that.

It's a sad moment, but these are sad and pathetic people.

[leftynyc]

162. They want the same thing

the freepers do. Very telling.

[Puregonzo1188]

271. No, I'm not a Freeper. I'm someone who's done in human rights work in the past opposing

extra-judicial executions and targeted killings. And no, I'm not changing my mind just because Osama was a really bad man and it's really great for partisan politics or nationalist sentiment or what not. I'm against those policies in principle and if that is what took place here, which evidence is starting to emerge that it did, then I'm against what happened here.

Plus, I really disturbed by how this act is going to be used to justify a whole bunch of other bankrupt policies. Not just in the US, but by other governments as well.


Is that the path you want to head down?

[Amonester]

273. And you are ready to believe every word his daughter says??

Do you really think she has NO bias in this?

Do you really think she can be trusted?

What evidence do you have that she's not lying (to sort of 'trying to avenge' her own father who died three days ago)???

Personally, I think she is lying (perhaps hoping to 'eff' her ennemy, which is the U.S.).

[Puregonzo1188]

274. She could be lying, she could be telling the truth. I don't know.

I'm trying to look at the whole picture which is looking grimmer and grimmer. First there was a firefight, now he was unarmed.

I think better yet--does what she describes seem implausible? I'm not sure it does. Time will tell.

[Amonester]

276. Maybe a lie detector would help, but even then, I am not sure.

I can understand her pain, though. After all, he was her father.

[foreigncorrespondent]

282. So...

...are you saying that anyone who doesn't conform to the "USA USA" ideology is a freeper?

[leftynyc]

290. No, I'm saying the posters

are saying the same thing as the freepers - when that happens, perhaps the poster should take a step back and think. Or not, I really don't give a shit.

[Cali_Democrat]

164. Frankly at this point I don't know who to believe.

What I do feel is that the US never wanted a trial. Some people think that's a good thing, others may not. I'm in the camp that thinks evidence should be presented in court for all to see. Then he should be thrown in jail for life if convicted.

[JTFrog]

184. Seems to be the same camp that is willing to believe

or give more credence to anything that paints Obama or his administration in a bad light.

[Cali_Democrat]

195. The story has been changing constantly and we still don't know all the facts

But IF he was unarmed, then I would hope that the US forces would do everything in their power to capture him alive. The information from interrogating him could be used to possibly prevent future terrorist attacks and he could also be tried in court for his alleged crimes.

But again, that's what I would have liked but it's obviously too late now because he's dead.

[sweetloukillbot]

277. Do you really believe they could get anything from interrogating him?

What incentives can they offer him to make him talk? What threats can they make to scare him into talking? God knows I don't want them torturing him, so how are they going to get all this info out of him? He doesn't have anything to gain in cooperating.

[99th_Monkey]

297. Evil as he was, OBL was a human being with a family ...

Which under the UN Charter have certain inalignable rights, which the
US chose to ignore so they could just simply "off" him, no questions asked.

Well, I and many others, DO have questions about this. You don't?

[DeadEyeDyck]

253. I am split down the middle here

It is a great thing that we took him out. In some ways, it would have been better if we blew him with a predator drone. But having him in front of you where he could be taken alive and then shot anyway is a little scary.
There are two issues here. The first being, innocense until proven guilty. Even Saddam got a trial. Presumed innocence is a cornerstone of Ammerican democracy. It is something that separated us from the rest of the world. Though we all know he did it, we should have gone through the motions. Mayne we shoudl have tried him in abstencia and convicted him and sentenced him to death. Then the Seals would have been carrying out a court ordered execution.

The other concern is: where will this stop? What other "bad-guys" can we go and snuff out? Are we going back to the pre-Frank Church days where the CIA ran rip-shod around the world and people we didn't like "slipped on a bar of soap" or simply dissappeared in the night?

Are we giving the next repug President to take out a Castro or some other Leftist they don't like? See where I am coming from?

[Sheepshank]

143. It's interesting to note

which stories you chose to buy into and promote as closer to the truthm when none of them have a shred of evidence. But then your "slip" is showing frequently.

[Cali_Democrat]

165. I think it would have been best if there was a trial where the world could see the evidence

The ICC is the place to try and convict international criminals.

Too late now, obviously.

[Solomon]

192. And do you really imagine somehow, that such a trial would be

a fair trial? Isn't that the American way, a "fair trial". Not just a trial but a fair trial.

Now tell us how you perceive that Bin Laden could have gotten a fair trial here in America? Tell us please. Would you put Americans on the jury or a "jury of his peers" which is also the "American" way. Do you imagine that Americans on the jury could find him not guilty if suitable evidence is not produced?

Please explain how it would not inflame the world as a Kangaroo Court. Besides attracting attacks etc.

Would you let some other country try him so that the trial would be fair?

How would you do this? Please tell us.

[Cali_Democrat]

201. The ICC is the International Criminal Court

It's not an American court. Crimes allegedly committed against Americans can be prosecuted in the court when the evidence is presented. A better alternative to summary execution.

Also, we could possibly prevent future terrorist attacks after we interrogate Bin Laden, assuming he was captured alive. All that is now moot now that he's dead.

[JTFrog]

210. Exactly. n/t

[Recursion]

147. Hostis humani generis

He was a legitimate target of opportunity for a military action.

[coalition_unwilling]

173. Here's a suggestion for you then: let's just proceed directly to

execute anyone accused of a capital crime without bothering with the nicety of a trial. "Rule of law" is so 20th Century.

Oh, and welcome to my Ignore list.

[Recursion]

197. Nope

He declared war, we declared it back. War sucks.

I notice you only say this about the famous targets, not the foot soldiers. Interesting.

[sofa king]

226. Live Osama = Dead Hostages

I don't mean to be overly blunt here, but that's the basic math of the problem. Were he captured alive and word got out, every affiliated terror organization would take hostages and threaten to start killing them in an attempt to force a prisoner exchange. Which would not happen, so those innocent people would die.

The taking of hostages would also divert thin special-forces groups into hostage search and rescue operations, instead of using the electronic data gained to track down bin Laden's associates.

Currently, the initiative rests with us. We get to chase those guys, instead of reacting to what they do to us. A live bin Laden would have reversed the equasion in their favor.

And, I'm sure I don't really have to point out that the life of that guy is not worth that of a single innocent person. So fuck him.

[Shiver]

239. Exactly.

I've been trying to say the same thing since people first mentioned taking him alive for trial. More innocent lives would be put at risk as hostages are taken and executed when their demands aren't met.

Add in that there was no way a fair trial would have occurred anywhere in the world, any information taken from him would have been suspect, and my personal belief that he would have committed suicide in his cell rather than allow the Great Satan to execute him.

[InvisibleTouch]

252. Agreed. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

255. If keeping that monster alive cost one more American life

it was too much. He was a huge liability. I have no doubt the goal was to kill him on sight. There was really no other choice.

[Old and In the Way]

266. Very good point!

I really hadn't considered that aspect of the risk if he had been taken alive. For the record, I never thought he'd live to see his day in court...there was a little too much in the way of extenuating circumstances to allow that to happen.

[greyl]

275. Agreed. Potentially huge mess of new problems. nt

[sabrina 1]

3. So incredibly sad and truly disturbing.

Besides recovering four bullet-riddled bodies from the compound, Pakistani security agencies also arrested two women and six children, aged between 2 and 12 years, after American forces flew toward Afghanistan. Some reports suggest 16 people, including women and children, were arrested from the house, most of them Arab nationals.

A two year old! I am glad they had no room to take these women and children to one of our torture chambers. And glad the Pakistanis have not allowed US officials near them. I hope it remains that way and those children are kept safe from US officials. We torture children too, it should be remembered.

This is not the change I was hoping for. I feel sick for some reason. What has any of this accomplished? He was hardly even relevant anymore and as for political gains here, Republicans will never vote for this president and many progressives who opposed these kinds of brutal tactics when Bush was president, are likely to become totally disenchanted with this president as a result of this.

I wonder when they were all watching the killings on video, did they see the little children there? Did they think of their own should this happen to them?

What a world Bush created and we just can't change it.

If this is true, Pakistani officials say that not a shot was fired by anyone in the compound and no weapons were found.

So sad, all of it.

[BzaDem]

6. So you won't believe what the US government says, but you'll immediately believe what the Pakistani

government says without question.

Mkay.

[sabrina 1]

8. What are you talking about? Both the US and Pakistan

are saying that Bin Laden was not armed. Both say he was shot at the compound. Both say a woman was also killed. The US says that five people total were shot and killed. Pakistanis say six, if I'm reading correctly.

So what do you mean believing one and not the other. What is different about what they are saying. I am sick to think that children were in the home and got to witness five or six people who they undoubtedly knew and maybe loved, shot down in cold blood.

If that doesn't bother you, that is not my concern. I'd like to keep my humanity if you don't mind, and never, ever become apathetic about killing, simply because now it's being done by someone I supported.

[liberalpragmatist]

10. The Pakistani source here...

... claims that Bin Laden was executed after capture and that no firefight took place.

Now, maybe that will turn out to be correct. But right now, details are plenty murky, there are conflicting accounts, and while I can't fault skepticism at U.S. government claims, that same skepticism ought to be applied to Pakistani claims as well.

[EFerrari]

15. The differences are what floor he was on, what floor the two servants

the son, and the other woman were on.

The firefight claim seems to have been withdrawn today. There was "crossfire" but that could have been fire from the US snipers going into a room on the first floor from different doors.

Our reports say the two males and the woman were on the first floor and Bin Laden was on an upper floor.

The two new details, that he was captured alive and that he was killed in front of his family, don't really conflict with anything.

[sabrina 1]

33. Well, they are in agreement that Bin Laden himself was not armed

Whether anyone else was, we don't know. It's true that the US has said there was a firefight. I'm sure there is video as the US has said the commandos had video cams on their helmets. So, that should settle the question.

My problem is not whether there was a firefight or not. It is the whole idea of assassination and the lack of concern for children. Not just in this incident, but in general. So many children have been killed with no sign of remorse from this government, and no sense that there is anything wrong with it. And people line up on one side or the other now, looking for some political advantage rather than wondering 'what are we doing, what have we become'? When I supported Obama it was in the hope that this would change.

[dkf]

254. You do realize Obama cancelled the original plans to bomb the whole place right?

They are alive because Obama decided to risk American lives to carry out this operation.

If it had gone badly for us this may have been the end of his presidency. Yet you wanted Obama to make it even more iffy for us?

So many more things could have gone wrong the way you wanted it to go down. Is it worth the Presidency and full Republican control?

[BzaDem]

11. The US says Bin Laden resisted. The Pakistani government says otherwise.

There are many ways to resist without a gun (such as trying to get one for starters).

If you want to believe he did not resist, then you are assuming the US government is lying, while simultaneously and unquestioningly accepting the Pakistani government's story at face value as completely true.

[sabrina 1]

19. I'm sure he did resist. So what, both say he was not armed.

So what good was resisting against armed forces?? The Pakistanis said nothing about him resisting or not resisting.

I have said what bothers me and that is our complete disregard, not just in this incident, but in general, for the lives of innocent children.

This president has ordered the use of more drones and killed more women and children than Bush at this point. This is NOT what I supported. Sorry if it's okay with you. I assume you don't have children of your own, but this president does, yet he has ignored all reguests from the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan to stop killing their civilians with those cowardly weapons sent from thousands of miles away.

I am absolutely shocked at the sudden support on the left for what they completely condemned when it was the Bush administration doing it. More than shocked, just thoroughly disgusted and ashamed to think I am in any way responsible.

[BzaDem]

21. How many children were killed in this operation again?

There are many other threads about topics unrelated to this one.

With regards to this incident, the requirement of non resistance (if the target wants to stay alive) is quite high, just as it is in many specific civilian police scenarios. If the target looks like he is grabbing for a weapon, setting off some sort of trigger, or fumbling around for anything, especially given his track record, they are not going to take chances (just as domestic law enforcement acts in certain situations).

[sabrina 1]

44. There is video of the whole operation.

As for your 'target' resisting etc and our domestic policies, I've seen some of the results of those policies. We are a brutal society, and as long as Americans tolerate it, it will continue and get worse until this whole society aquires some wisdom as others throughout history eventually had to do. Meantime, I will remain horrified by all of it, you are free to excuse it and even support and try to justify it if you wish.

We don't belong in other people's countries. Bush killed over one million Iraqis, people who did nothing to this country. Would you be so magnanamous if the Iraqis sent a commando squad to Bush's ranch and assassinated him in front of his children and relatives? Or do you think that killing Iraqis is not the same thing as killing Americans? Because if you support these assassinations, then remember, when those we have unjustly killed for oil, decide to act the same way, we won't have much of a leg to stand on if we whine about it.

[BzaDem]

51. As Obama said in the campaign, if we have actionable intelligence about Bin Laden or other senior Al

Queda leaders, we will act upon it.

If informing the host country might lead to the information getting in the terrorist's hands, then of course we aren't going to inform (let alone ask for permission). While a few people might think we should ask the permission of countries that look the other way at terrorism (and leak our intelligence), they will never be in any position of power, so I'm not worried.

I'm not sure why you brought up Iraq. This thread has nothing to do with Iraq.

[sabrina 1]

54. And by acting upon it I and others who did not think

Democrats were likely to engage in assassinations, thought he meant bring them to trial. It's called 'justice'.

Clinton brought the Blind Sheik Rahman to trial for the 1993 bombing of the WTC, right in NYC. Those trials took seven years. Justice was served.

Bin Laden should have been tried in an International court. We do not know what role he played in 9/11. We do know he denied it but 'was happy it happened'. Later, it seems he thought it gave him standing to let people believe he was responsible. Whatever, we used to respect the law in this country. Now we just execute people without charges or trials or convictions. Just like any third world dictatorship.

As for Iraq, Iraq is always going to be relevant to everything the US does. Our claim is 'we were wronged and that gives us the right to do whatever we want'. But the problem is we no longer have sympathy for that claim because of what WE did to the innocent Iraqi people. We lost our moral authority, our claim to being the victims. We have created one hundred times the victims Bin Laden, assuming he was guilty, created.

[Bonobo]

80. Yes, exactly.

OBL committed crimes.

Therefore bringing him to justice implies bringing him to trial, not ordering his death.

A nation of laws. Sound familiar? It's what the USA once had a pretense of being.

[JoePhilly]

99. Obama said he'd "take him out" ... did you think he meant to lunch?

[coalition_unwilling]

177. Thereby proving that Harvard Law Review editors can be just

as barbarian as Texas yahoos.

USA! USA! USA!

:sarcasm:

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[JoePhilly]

198. "Welcome" to your ignore list? ... cool, I bet I'll like the people there!!!

I point out EXACTLY what Obama said he'd do.

To act SURPRISED that he actually did it seems silly. Unless you did not vote for Obama BECAUSE he said this as a candidate. If you did vote for him, then YOU knew he planned to do this.

But I doubt you will read any of this .... now that I am partying with all the others on your ignore list, but hey, its a great party, I can't believe how many people are here!!

:rofl:

[BzaDem]

109. You just said "we don't belong in other people's countries." But even if Bin Laden were to agree to

come quietly to be tried, that would involve going to another country to get him. So which is it? Going to other countries to get him is OK, if he surrenders? Or it is never OK, and we should have just let him chill in Pakistan (or asked Pakistan to deal with him, which would have allowed him to flee elsewhere)?

Bin Laden took credit for 9/11 in 2001 and 2004, on video. Trying to act like we don't know what role he had is revisionist history. If Bin Laden wanted to be tried (and likely executed) at the hands of the US, he could have surrendered and not resisted. But somehow I doubt Bin Laden would ever want that to happen (and I certainly doubt that it did happen).

And despite your contortions to try to bring in Iraq, it has nothing to do with this. There are plenty of other threads that talk about Iraq.

[woo me with science]

154. Just curious.

I hear what you think about this. I disagree.

I am wondering what you would have them do about it now?

[sabrina 1]

248. They could start by ending the occupations of other people's

countries, stop building military bases around the globe. End US support for brutal dictators like Karamov of Uzbekistan and start taking care of this country's needs. Then, as the Egyptian revolutionaries asked Hillary Clinton for, apologize to those nations whose brutal regimes we supported for so long which led to all of our problems in one way or another. We created the monster we just killed. But we take no responsibility for our own actions. We are always the victims.

And to the Iraqi people, I don't think if we lived for a thousand years, we could make up for the harm that has done to that country.

We are not popular around the world. We can sit here in our bubble telling ourselves we are the 'good guys' chanting our patriotic slogans, and there was a time when the world would have agreed. But that is not the case anymore. OBL was an religious extremist and no doubt not completely sane, but the US cannot go on pretending that it has not given people cause to hate us.

We see what our support for the dictators, Mubarak, Ben Ali among others has done to the people of those nations. They want us to acknowledge our role in their oppression. So, I would probably start with cutting off the funding we are sending to all of our dictator 'friends' as a gesture showing that we are beginning to get it, that we are in no way blameless for the current state we are in.

But we won't do any of that. The only thing this country knows is violence. Which is probably why we have more of an affinity with violent, brutal and ruthless dictators like Karamov than we do with true democratic leaders.

But I can dream ~

[marions ghost]

294. +1 You make sense

"We lost our moral authority, our claim to being victims." --I have to agree what has happened since 9-11 makes a big difference.

"Now we just execute people...like any third world dictatorship." --That is what it seems to me also.

[liberalpragmatist]

25. I actually don't like the aerial bombings...

... drones are actually more accurate in that regard, but either way I agree that the drone attacks on Pakistan and Afghanistan are, at the very least, highly questionable. My own sense is that they're hurting far more than helping.

However, I really don't see how that applies in this particular case. This was not an aerial bombing - an option that the military offered - but a targeted, special-ops mission. One of the reasons I'm happy it was done this way was precisely because an aerial bombing would have killed everyone in the compound, including the women and children, risked hitting other properties, and provided no proof of Bin Laden's death.

[sabrina 1]

47. Well, I have to disagree with you about drones.

They are not accurate. It is pretty much established that they kill 10 civilians for every 1 'insurgent' and have been the cause of incredible outrage by the Pakistani people and by the Afghans. Many, many peaceful demonstrations have been held in both countries demanding that they be stopped. They love their children as much Americans love theirs. Would it be acceptable for a foreign nation to do to our children what we are doing to theirs?

Robert Fisk was present in Afghanistan several years ago when a drone attack occurred. His description of the carnage, of the sheer horror of what he saw and the overwhelming grief of parents who were 'fighting over body parts, limbs of little children, because they wanted to have somethign to bury and there was nothing recognizable left of their precious children.

Sorry, I cannot and probably never will be capable of reducing these tragedies to 'collateral damage' or whatever other words we use to try to diminish their humanity. We have done more killing, more maiming and more torture than Bin Laden could have dreamed of. And the world is far more frightened of us than they ever were of OBL.

[liberalpragmatist]

48. No, my point was that drones are more accurate than aerial bombing

Not that they're "good" or that they're all that accurate on their own.

[coalition_unwilling]

178. Our courageous drones kill a lot of terrorists disguised as children, don't they?

It's all war porn and serves no legitimate national (or international) security interest whatsoever.

[Recursion]

199. That's still more accurate than bombing

It is pretty much established that they kill 10 civilians for every 1 'insurgent'

Much better than manned airplanes bombing (something like 30:1) and massively better than artillery (100:1 or so)

[sabrina 1]

215. And those are the only options we have? Killing one way or

killing another way?? That's what Bush said also. There is no way for the US to be 'safe' unless we kill lots of people!

[Recursion]

236. I refuse to have the perfect be the enemy of the good

I'd rather there were no wars. When there are, I would rather we use the least-damaging means possible.

[dkf]

256. Maybe we can send you in to risk your life and arrest these suspects alive?

Maybe if you had to do that you would realize what you are asking is way more dangerous for us.

[EFerrari]

27. sabrina, did you know that JSOC runs one of the two drone programs

in Pakistan? There are two programs and one of them is run by CIA and one of them is run by JSOC. I read that in one of Jeremy Scahill's articles today. So the drone program and this killing are both the work of the same outfit.

[sabrina 1]

40. No, I did not know that.

So it makes sense they would be immune to the presence of children. I feel sorry for them too as when this is all over, they will have to live with what they are being asked to do.

[suffragette]

238. That's why I've been thinking back to Raymond Davis

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4740737#4740975

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4740737#4742652

[EFerrari]

242. That's a good catch. n/t

[suffragette]

247. His name is popping up in interesting places and ways

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/some-white-knuckle-moments-for-elite-navy-seals-team.html

May 02, 2011 11:05 AM

One possible complication: While CIA contractor Ray Davis was in the Pakistani prison there were concerns about his safety were this mission to be conducted.

Davis’s March 16 release cleared that possible obstacle to the operation -- a kill mission, with the clear objective to kill bin Laden.




http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2011/5/2/did_pakistani_govt_know_where_osama
May 02, 2011

JEREMY SCAHILL: Also, on the issue of the helicopter, I mean, we understand that it was what’s called a Little Bird helicopter, which is a very lightweight helicopter that Blackwater types and JSOC types have often used in Iraq and, to an extent, in Afghanistan. The reports are that it was then destroyed by the U.S. forces after it went down. And the official line is that it was a mechanical failure. There are other reports that say that it was brought down by some kind of arms fire from within the compound, and we probably won’t know that. I would concur with what Mosharraf is saying. I mean, the idea that U.S. Special Ops forces are operating in Pakistan without the knowledge of the Pakistani government is, in fact, ludicrous. And that’s why, when this deal was originally brokered by Musharraf and McChrystal, the public posture had to be that the Pakistanis would deny it.

Let’s remember, too, that this killing of Osama bin Laden takes place just months after Raymond Davis, who was a man who straddled the world of both the CIA and Special Operations forces, killed two men in Lahore, Pakistan, and then, after weeks of controversy, was eventually taken out of the country after payments were made to the families of his victims. One of the things that Raymond Davis is suspected of having done inside of Pakistan was having communications with people in the tribal areas, but also potentially targeting Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is a terrorist organization behind the Mumbai bombings that has been designated by the U.S. as a state sponsor of terrorism and that the U.S. accuses of having very close ties to the ISI. So, the timing of this operation coming as soon as it did after this epic scandal with Raymond Davis, perhaps the most serious crisis between Pakistan and U.S. governments in a decade, or maybe even since the ransacking of the U.S. embassy in Islamabad in 1979, is curious, to say the least.

But I think there’s two questions here. Were the Pakistanis giving sanctuary to Osama bin Laden in this town that Mosharraf has just described, a heavily populated town with big military presence? And what was the full role of the Pakistani government in ultimately killing Osama bin Laden? Because it was Special Ops forces and not the CIA, it would indicate that there had to have been very high-level discussions between the U.S. and Pakistan about this, but the Obama administration says no intelligence was shared with any government, including the Pakistani. So this mystery, I think, is going to continue to deepen.



Back from when he was released:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/idINIndia-55631920110316
U.S. thanks Pakistan after Raymond Davis pardoned

WASHINGTON | Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:11pm IST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan on Wednesday confirmed that a CIA contractor held on murder charges had been pardoned and released by a Pakistani court and thanked the victims' families for agreeing to the deal.

"The families of the victims of the January 27 incident in Lahore have pardoned Raymond Davis. I am grateful for their generosity. I wish to express, once again, my regret for the incident," Ambassador Cameron Munter said in a statement released by the State Department.

A U.S. official said Davis was flown out of Pakistan on Wednesday after being acquitted following a deal to pay "blood money" to the victims' families, removing a significant irritant in the already rocky relationship between Washington and Islamabad.

"Davis was released from Pakistani custody and is out of the country. There was no quid pro quo," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Munter said the U.S. Department of Justice has opened an investigation into the incident involving Davis, who shot dead two Pakistanis in the eastern Punjab city of Lahore on Jan. 27 after what he described as an attempted armed robbery.

[sabrina 1]

249. Excellent post, thank you.

I forgot about that guy. I wonder how long they've been aware of Bin Laden's presence in that house ~

[suffragette]

250. He was tied to Blackwater, JSOC and CIA. Quite the connections

This is a good article to remember as well. More at the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/21/raymond-davis-pakistan-cia-blackwater

US officials have provided fresh details about Raymond Davis, the CIA agent at the centre of a diplomatic stand-off in Pakistan, including confirmation that he had worked for the private security contractor Xe, formerly known as Blackwater. They also disclosed for the first time that he had been providing security for a CIA team tracking militants.

Davis was attached to the CIA's Global Response Staff, whose duties include protecting case officers when they meet with sources. He was familiarising himself with a sensitive area of Lahore on the day he shot dead two Pakistanis.

The New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press and other media outlets reported for the first time that Davis is a CIA employee. They said they had been aware of his status but kept it under wraps at the request of US officials who said they feared for his safety if involvement with the spy agency was to come out. The officials claimed that he is at risk in the prison in Lahore. The officials released them from their obligation after the Guardian on Sunday reported that Davis was a CIA agent.

Davis shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore last month who he says had been trying to rob him. A third Pakistani man was killed by a car driven by Americans apparently on their way to rescue Davis.


As to your question, I wonder about that, too.

[sabrina 1]

251. He was a busy guy.

I'm surprised the Pakistanis let him go. And even since then, the US has sent in more drones despite the objections of the Pakistani government.

Thank you for the article, I will go read it. From reading the others it seems that they knew about Bin Laden at least since Davis was arrested. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

[suffragette]

267. That's how I read those as well

The U.S. made every effort to get him out ASAP.

Thinking this must have been a strong factor: "providing security for a CIA team tracking militants."

[sabrina 1]

278. Yes, the Pakistanis are saying they informed the US about the

compound a while ago and are furious that the US is now saying they did not trust them. Going by the articles you provided if I am reading them correctly, it seems that the US knew Bin Laden's whereabouts as least as early as January of this year. And it's possible that this guy was part of the operation that to 'get him'.

[suffragette]

281. That's the same possibility I'm gleaning from the articles.

It will be interesting to see if the DOJ investigation referred to in the article about his release goes anymore.

Given the other articles, I'd be very surprised to see that happen.

This is clearly someone who was never meant to be in the public eye and I imagine he's back to a more shadowy existence by now.

[sabrina 1]

292. Lol, I doubt that investigation will go anywhere.

Did you notice btw, that in one of the articles, it was claimed by the Pakistanis that the two men he shot (apparently at least one of them in the back) were ISI agents?? Could they have been following him, knowing the US knew about Bin Laden, either because they told them, or they were hoping they did not?

It's fascinating how this now has a whole new meaning. I would like to follow up on what you provided. Sort of like reading a spy novel and thanks for directing our attention to that story. I'm thinking they may have known about OBL for quite a long time, maybe at least as far back as 2009. I'm definitely going to try to find out more about. You are an excellent sleuth! :-)

[suffragette]

295. Well, if you find out more, let me know

and I'll do the same for you.

It is interesting viewing this through the lens of what has occurred now.

[sabrina 1]

296. Yes, it is and I will let you know if I find out anything that might

now have a lot more significance in light of what just happened ~

[WinkyDink]

84. Now, who would "resist" armed men in the dead of night?! Not I! Nooooo!

[alcibiades_mystery]

153. Yeah, Osama bin Laden put his hands up and surrendered

:rofl:

Do you people even fucking hear yourselves?

:rofl:

[mfcorey1]

182. 3000+ did not have a chance to resist. nt

[JDPriestly]

65. Do you seriously think that Bin Laden was living in that compound

without armed guards, without a defense perimeter, that he was just lying in his bed without the ability to defend himself from attack?

I think that idea is naive.

[coalition_unwilling]

176. You would probably have believed the U.S. government's

version of the Gulf of Tonkin incident (lies) and not the North Vietnamese version (truth).

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Ikonoklast]

23. OBL put those children at risk, no one else did.

His decision.

And the squad took fire from the compound...there were weapons fired.


Crocodile tears from the left for a mass murderer.

[EFerrari]

28. What is your source for them taking fire from the compound?

Nic Robertson was at the site and he shot video which showed no damaged to the building, no signs of a firefight.

[sabrina 1]

38. How odd to see this very familiar attempt to blame the children

for being 'put there'. If OBL has no sense of decency or morality, what you are advocating is that we should act the same way. And you have your wish, we are no better. This was the Bush supporters exact argument whenever I objected to the bombing of Iraqi markets, or wedding parties. 'We are not to blame if THEY put their children in harm's way'.

You are free to not care about innocent children for the sake of defending your team if you wish. I remember when rightwingers accused me of only caring about those children because 'you hate Bush and if it was Clinton you'd be defending it'. They were wrong, I don't care who is doing it, so spare me your apologetics because now it's our team.

[Ikonoklast]

46. I blamed OBL. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

And this 'your team' bullshit is hilarious coming from you.


I can fling silly accusations myself; you sound just like the right-wingers..."But what about the children??" they ask, hiding their ideology behind false concern in order to score political points.

Yes, innocent children suffer.

Ask those orphaned in the attacks on 9-11.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ikonoklast]

76. Who was talking about Iraq?

Reading comprehension is totally beyond you.

Osama bin Laden put his family in harm's way, and you equate me with Republicans.


Since you will not or cannot address that issue, and have therefore changed the subject, I assume you have nothing.

[Solomon]

129. Aw Jeeeezuz H Christ! Can you stretch and reach any further?

No one is blaming the children. What a crock! If we don't come up with a cure for this Obama Derangement Syndrome virus that's been going around soon it'll be the end of us.

[sabrina 1]

243. Speaking of stretching.

My position on US foreign policy, its illegal invasions and its slaughter and torture of innocent civilians, has not changed one bit since the Bush administration decided to launch its murderous invasions of two countries, neither of which had done anything to this country.

The fact that the WH is now occupied by a different president has not altered my principles one bit. I am against what I was always against. How that translates into 'Obama Derangement Syndrome' is not clear to me at all.

Are you saying that I should now be waving the flag, as Bush supporters were doing, alter my views on illegal wars and on torture and on the idea of a unitary executive with extraordinary powers to go around ordering assassinations etc. when I have always opposed these policies?

Give me a good reason as to why I should do that if you can. Have YOU changed your mind about all these things, or were you a supporter of Bush's policies and are now just being consistent?

[JTFrog]

58. Pakistani officials also told us he wasn't even in Pakistan.

:shrug:

[meow mix]

93. Im glad, Hes Fucking Dead. Im also glad people are crying thier eyes out over Osama. lol

Cause it means Hes Dead!
:toast:

[coalition_unwilling]

180. It's people like you who make me want to leave the

Democratic Party for good.

No one is crying their eyes out over Osama. Some of us are crying our eyes out over the destruction of such quaint and obsolete concepts as the "rule of law."

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[leftynyc]

202. Wow - your ignore list

is getting nice and long and I see I'm in excellent company. Just stick to your echo chamber and you'll be a happy little camper. How freeking pathetic.

[ScreamingMeemie]

272. I was going to say the same thing.

The funny thing is that this person appears to be "ignoring" several of the more rational posters here.

[readmoreoften]

287. How pathetic that you think people are pathetic for not wanting to hear

nonstop USA USA chants as if this was FreeRepublic in 2002.

[leftynyc]

289. Yawn

Nonstop? Stuff the hyperbole. People got excited for a few hours and you're complaining. The poster puts anyone who doesn't consider their words pearls before swine on ignore. PATHETIC.

[Recursion]

203. What "law" do you imagine was broken here?

I'd love to see that one...

[Old and In the Way]

269. Seriously?

You're worried about the rule of law against someone who had a big role in the 9/11 attack? Really?

Please add me to your ignore list as well.

[Union Scribe]

285. But we murdered him while he was reading to sick orphans!

Lol, fuck him. I'm with you.

[leftynyc]

95. What crap

Pres Obama's other option was just to drop a massive bomb on this compound and kill everyone - that would have ensured no loss of American life but he took the harder course and saved some lives. Perhaps you think we should have just let a mass murderer live out his life in comfort because we may hurt someone he himself put in the line of fire by virtue of knowing he was the target of a manhunt and still keeping them around to make his life easier.

What has this accomplished? A mass murderer is dead. Good. How pathetic you feel sorry for him.

[coalition_unwilling]

183. You support extra-judicial executions, then. Here's a suggestion

for you: let's just execute anyone accused of a capital crime without a trial first. "Rule of law" is so 20th century.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[leftynyc]

190. More crap

Extra judicial execution? Bin laden? You're fucking hilarious. And do put me on ignore because I'll always call out people like you that will coddle a mass murderer.

[sabrina 1]

245. How pathetic that you pretend to think I feel sorry for him.

I'd ask for proof, but it's an old game, and a boring one.

What I feel sorry for is that the US responded to what it condemned, by acting in the same way, losing the respect of the world and the good will they had after 9/11.

Forgive me for caring about this country. Bush policies have destroyed any credibility the US ever had and a continuation of them only confirms for many around the globe, that they were not just Bush policies, but American policies.

We have not only sacrificed lives and trillions of dollars on the pretext that any of this was ever about 'terror', but far worse, as this thread so sadly demonstrates, Americans, both left and right now, have lost all sense of morality. OBL got what he wanted. We can no longer point to his lack of concern for innocent victims, it is clear that we share that sentiment with him. He was a weak man, we had a chance to demonstrate real strength to the world, instead we chose to emulate the weak and pathetic man we claim to abhor.

[Inuca]

96. What utter BS! n/t

[Very_Boring_Name]

4. I'll give the obligatory "that's terrible", but inside I really don't care

I'm sorry, I just don't. My only regret is he didn't suffer.

[dipsydoodle]

12. With respect to the 9/11 event.

he was never any more than wanted as "alleged to have been responsible".

[BzaDem]

14. Someone who proudly boasts about his role in 9-11 on video multiple times is responsible.

[dipsydoodle]

26. Odd then that no charges were brought.

Only ever wanted "in connection with"

Your "multiple times" can presumably be supported with links ?

[BzaDem]

29. Actually, it is not odd at all. If they wanted an indictment, the videos alone would have easily

been sufficient.

If you want the videos, search for 2001 Bin Laden video and 2004 Bin Laden video. Google is your friend.

[Fool Count]

91. Just because he boasted about doing it doesn't actually prove that

he did. What other proof of his involvement do we have except his videos?

[bettyellen]

111. they have another hard drive from years ago, evidence on it was used in another trial

apparently, it has payroll records on it for the terrorists, and plans to commit attacks.

[BzaDem]

112. It wouldn't matter to you, since by definition it wouldn't be enough.

If videos aren't enough for you, nothing is enough. Conspiracy theorists by definition do not accept evidence that cuts against their theory.

[Fool Count]

126. Maybe conspiracy theorists do not, but I do. Besides, I don't

have a theory, I am just asking. It is a very simple and uncontroversial legal principle that
confession alone does not count as sufficient proof. Particularly in the terrorism business
where claiming responsibility is the whole point. What real terrorist ever committed an act
and then tried to conceal his involvement? Actually, Osama did for three years after 9/11.
Only in 2004 did he start boasting about it. So I don't really get how anyone may consider
a bunch of self-aggrandizing propaganda videos as any kind of proof. There surely must be
something else.

[BzaDem]

132. Video of Osama recovered in 2001:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/osama-bin-laden-911-confession-13506877

[Fool Count]

136. Again, that's just him boasting of his terrorist prowess

in front of other terrorists. Not a bad recruitment strategy but hardly a proof.

[BzaDem]

138. OBL: "We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on

the position of the tower." From the video we recovered in 2001 that I linked to you.

As I said, of course the video wouldn't convince you, because nothing would convince you. Any evidence you don't like will deemed as inadequate, non-existent, or saying precisely the opposite of what it really says (just as some other people think Obama was born in Kenya regardless of the evidence, or think we never walked on the moon regardless of the evidence, etc).

Fortunately, these people are so numerically few that they aren't really relevant in the grand scheme of things. Our country gives them the right to spout whatever they want on the Internet, but not the right to have their views taken seriously.

[Fool Count]

142. OK, now I see that you are the same logic-deficient person

arguing with me in another sub-thread. I've seen the video, no need to cite Osama to me.
Am I supposed to take seriously his boasting about "calculating in advance" anything?
Again, just because I reject self-implicating bragging of a terrorist as a definitive
proof, doesn't mean that I will not accept a real proof. And I am not saying that it
does not exist. I am sure it does and I would like to see it.

[BzaDem]

145. Oh yes, now you are calling OTHER people "logic-deficient."

:rofl:

[coalition_unwilling]

186. Thank you for a small voice of sanity amongst all the atavistic

blood lust. I was beginning to wonder when someone would step up and say it, aside from me. Confession does not equal guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why we have 'due process' and an adversarial justice system.

[Recursion]

148. Actually his indictment was only for Kenya & Tanzania

Nobody's ever said he had any operational role in 9/11.

[JohnnyRingo]

225. He adamantly confessed his crimes to the world's media.

That's not something a radical cult leader does if he wants to watch his grandchildren grow up.
No one else came forward to call him a liar.

[K8-EEE]

22. +1 NT

[leftynyc]

32. I'm worse than you

I wont even give the "that's terrible". First I don't believe anything anyone there is saying and second, killers that hide among women and children are to blame for anything that happens. A worldwide manhunt was being conducted and he knew it. He chose to put those other people in the middle of it.

[Very_Boring_Name]

36. I've heard reports that the woman who was killed during the raid may have been used as a human

shield. Absolutely disgusting.

[liberalpragmatist]

42. In fairness, that was retracted

At least in regards to Bin Laden. It might or not be true in the case of the woman that was killed, though if it happened, it was with another individual, not Bin Laden.

[leftynyc]

50. I've heard that as well

and am very not suprised by it. Not proud that I don't care about the other people in that compound but I really don't and am finding it very easy to live with.

[sabrina 1]

52. That has been retracted. No woman was used as a human

shield. That story came from Brennan. He has been contradicted now by the WH.

[druidity33]

74. "hide among women and children"?

Wasn't this his family? His wives, children and grandchildren? Maybe they wanted him to be there? Maybe he wanted to be with them? To his children, perhaps he was a good father... who knows.

:shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

78. Yes

you can tell that by the interview his son gave talking about the abuse he and his brothers and sisters suffered at his hands.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/osama-bin-ladens-son-death-unleash-violent-enemies/story?id=13509779

[druidity33]

103. Thanks. I had some idea...

i knew he had a dozen children or so. I knew some had denounced him, some hadn't. Honestly, in this interview it sounds to me like Omar respected his father, he just couldn't conscience "attacking civilians with intent" (though i can't see how they hadn't already done that). The "abuse" he suffered he intentionally minimizes and he didn't disavow his father until 2009, so that says to me he was ok with everything until then.

OBL was bound to have "loyal" wives (among the five) and children who would've stuck by him. It doesn't necessarily make them complicit in his crimes. Should we charge them as terrorists? I hear there was a 2 year old involved. After the US left the scene, Pakistan arrested all of the women and children... including the 2 year old.

:shrug:

[leftynyc]

87. I have no idea

how many were his wives or his children and I don't care. A good father wouldn't put his children between himself and an international manhunt. Neither would a good husband.

[coalition_unwilling]

187. Silly druidity, don't you know they were actually terrorists disguised as children? - n/t

[Capitalocracy]

41. I've come to understand that major trials are a rather unpleasant experience...

I've heard the same thing about prisons...

Oh well, looks like bin Laden got off easy.

[DeadEyeDyck]

260. I wonder if we "took him out" so as to NOT have to learn

the truth about 911? I just wonder how many new players would service once all were brought to the surface.

Also, you would think the CIA would have loved to water-board OBL and see what he has in his turban wrapped noggin.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

188. As opposed to our brave soldiers who kill their children with

drones from 5 miles up.

Oh, sorry, I should have said "terrorists diguised as children."

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[coalition_unwilling]

185. I'll bet you would have been just fine with the US torturing him

while he was in captivity, all in the name of making him suffer.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[liberalpragmatist]

7. So long as you're skeptical of American sources...

... a little skepticism is warranted from Pakistani and Saudi ones too.

[EFerrari]

9. That rendering is actually very good when compared to

the things we know already.

[JTFrog]

59. You mean the rendering where they said he wasn't even in Pakistan?

Come on....

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

218. As usual, all you have is petty insults.

What I don't give a rat's ass about, is a report from the government who was aiding and abetting Osama bin Laden while pretending he wasn't even there.

But since a lot of you chose to glom onto any negative spin about Obama or his administration for the past two and a half years, I can understand how you fell for this.

[EFerrari]

221. I was merely quoting what you could read over and over here yesterday.

Search "rat's ass", I dare you.

And as a matter of fact, I spent all day yesterday trying to compile sources and details. So not only have I leveled no insult, but you can go look at that thread at your leisure.

There's very little difference between this version and the White House version although I haven't checked yet today for new corrections. They have one more dead body and they have things happening on different floors. That's it.

[Modern_Matthew]

16. Agreed. Just posted this to make sure everyone hears all sides... nt

[Dokkie]

if it true

then why shot him in the face? I dont buy it

[EFerrari]

17. McChrystal developed an assasination unit at JSOC. Famously.

If you needed someone shot in the face, these are the people you get to do it. Exactly these people.

[Bonobo]

18. For precisely that reason.

Same reason a building gets burned down after a theft is committed.

To obscure.

[Modern_Matthew]

13. My thoughts are so what, but it's awful to think he MIGHT HAVE been killed in front of his children.

They didn't deserve that.

[coalition_unwilling]

191. Dude, don't you know that they were terrorists disguised as children?

Doesn't that make a difference?

:sarcasm:

[dipsydoodle]

20. The White House backtracks on Bin Laden

The White House has had to correct its facts about the killing of Bin Laden, and for some that has diminished the glow of success that has surrounded all those involved in the operation.

Bin Laden wasn't armed when he was shot. It raises suspicions that this was indeed a deliberate shoot to kill operation.

Here are the inaccuracies in the first version. The woman killed was not his wife. No woman was used as a human shield. And he was not armed.

The president's press secretary Jay Carney suggested this was the result of trying to provide a great deal of information in a great deal of haste.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/05/the_white_house_has_had.html

[deutsey]

66. "He did not sprout fiendish horns as was earlier suggested, nor was he feasting on American flesh

when Navy Seals killed him. Contrary to initial assessments, there were no pink fuzzy slippers on his feet and his beard was not in curlers."

I'm certainly not saddened by bin Laden's death, but it sounds like someone was smoking crack and just making shit up rather than "trying to provide a great deal of information in a great deal of haste."

[coalition_unwilling]

194. The racist 'human shield' tag gives it away, doesn't it? That's

why you start to believe the entire story is a pack of self-serving lies, palatable to some here becuase it's our guy who did it.

Disgusting and puerile.

[maddezmom]

24. I'd take anything ISI says about the situation with a grain of salt

[Hannah Bell]

30. same goes for anything the us gov't says.

or us media.

[JTFrog]

61. Really? Obama said bin Laden was in Pakistan. Pakistan said he wasn't.

Which one do you think was telling the truth?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

63. Nice try. ISI said bin Laden wasn't even there.

You think his wife and kid are in on the conspiracy?

[Hannah Bell]

64. i said anything the us gov't says needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

that is a true statement.

i have no idea what the fuck youre talking about & don't really care, either.

i know where youre coming from, and its not an interesting place.

bye.

[JTFrog]

67. Lol.

That's what I thought.

Propaganda has a way of cornering itself.

:shrug:

[coalition_unwilling]

196. The U.S. government said the USS Maddox was attacked in

international waters in the Gulf of Tonkin. The Vietnamese said it was not. Which one do you think was telling the truth?

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[JTFrog]

213. So Osama wasn't in Pakistan?

Ignore away.

Ignorance is not bliss, it's oblivion.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

31. It's so close to the official US story, it looks like they've been given a script. n/t

[maddezmom]

37. many smiliarities and some differences...like another body taken by the US

I'm sure there is a lot more to come out.

[EFerrari]

45. Who is #6? That's a good question. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

259. And that's what's so interesting and I think what is causing such strong....reactions.(?)

Is if you read the DOD narrative (which I posted in General) it doesn't actually contradict some of the things being said. It just doesn't cover them at all.

For instance, the DOD narrative gives a really explicit account of what happened with the woman who was in the room with bin Laden: She was there with him, she rushed the SEALS who were making the assault, she was shot in the leg and they make a point of saying she was not killed. Bin Laden? "Bin Laden was then shot and killed. He was not armed."

And so right now there are accounts which fill in blanks that the DOD is intentionally leaving out. And that's where people are getting really cross with each other.

But in a way, there is terribly little difference in the accounts and in a lot of ways, they don't technically disagree with each other at all.

PB

[woo me with science]

123. +100000 nt

[highplainsdem]

141. +1,000,000

[guruoo]

34. Yeah, whatever. nt

[Ganja Ninja]

77. That about sums up my feelings too. n/t

[woo me with science]

124. +1000000 nt

[JohnnyRingo]

35. Maybe she'd like to share sad stories from family members of those killed on 9/11.

Perhaps it would console her to know she's not alone.

I know it's her father and that's not her fault, but I'm sure she's heard of his infamy and the victim's blood that has dripped from his boney hands for ten years.

She doesn't have a exclusive on family tragedy brought on by her father.

[Capitalocracy]

39. But that's not even the point.

The important thing here is the rule of law and having a trial. And honestly, I didn't want a trial for bin Laden's sake. Trials are an excellent tool for dissecting an ideology and showing its ugly innards to the world. I think there will be more converts who sympathize with bin Laden and his beliefs because he was extrajudicially executed than there would be if he were "given a forum" in a courtroom. If true, this is terrible.

Not that I'm not glad he's dead.

[JohnnyRingo]

222. He adamantly confessed in the world media.

That's not something an Arab cult leader who wants to live a long life does.
No one else stepped up to call him a liar when he took credit.

[EFerrari]

43. She's 12 and probably has never heard anything.

Bin Laden was ultra conservative. He didn't let the women even visit anyone else.

[leftynyc]

108. She's lucky

her father hadn't married her off to some old pig of a man by now.

[woo me with science]

157. I didn't see DU shedding tears when the ten-year-old shot his white supremacist father.

This 12-year-old was being raised with a fundy mass murderer, and we are supposed to feel sorry for taking him out?

[leftynyc]

160. Apparently

I don't but the wringing of hands around here is pretty sickening.

[sabrina 1]

53. Or maybe she'd know about the over one million innocent Iraqis

killed by George B*sh. Or the tortured and maimed. We don't have an exclusive on family tragedy either now, do we? Maybe you'd understand if the Iraqis sent a commando squad to B*sh's ranch to do what we just did. We wouldn't have much standing to complain about it if they did. Unless of course American lives are more precious than Iraqi lives.

But then again, she's only 12 years old. It's likely she knows none of this as it would have been foolish and very risky to provide a little girl with that kind of information. And she is girl, OBL was not likely to have confided in his daughter.

We really have become quite desentized on the left regarding even children now. Much like the right were when it was Bush's war. So sad, I thought we would be able to maintain our humanity, at least on the left.

[Hannah Bell]

55. +10000. it never ceases to amaze me when americans say things like that.

americans live in a bubble.

i don't like to make generalizations like that, but they live in a bubble.

[themadstork]

70. +1

[Ikonoklast]

82. Support that figure with hard fact.

I keep seeing that 'one million dead Iraqi' figure thrown out there all the time, but no supporting evidence to bolster a WAG.

The Lancet figures have been widely discredited by many different credible sources. The left latched onto that number and never let go, even though it was debunked years ago.

Most reputable, verifiable source of Iraqi non-combatant deaths from all sources of violence, including sectarian in-fighting place the figure at around 110,000 people.

And not all those were killed by direct action by U.S. military operations, or as a result of military action.

The vast majority of civilians killed in Iraq in the last ten years were killed by their fellow Iraqis.

[Fool Count]

98. What source is more credible than Lancet?

And why are we counting only "non-combatants" now? Like "combatants" are not human beings and
don't leave widows and orphans when killed. In any case the excess deaths of Iraqis (mostly
small children) due to barbaric sanctions before the invasion by most conservative estimates
far exceeded even that 1 million figure. Did anybody pay for that crime yet?

[Ikonoklast]

110. Do your own research, don't take my word for it.

Seems your mind is already made up, however.

The Lancet basically pulled those figures out of thin air, and have been pilloried for it.

[BzaDem]

116. That presupposes sanctions were a crime, as opposed to completely legal.

Once you correct for that false assumption, your argument collapses.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

134. Really? You take an acknowledgement of the legality of sanctions as an endorsement of the Holocaust?

And then instead of looking in the mirror, you call ME a troll?

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

140. The Holocaust and Stalin's purges were not legal at all.

On the other hand, the Iraq sanctions were completely legal under international law.

You accused me of apologizing for the mass murderers of the holocaust because I pointed out that the sanctions were perfectly legal. Enjoy your (hopefully short) stay here.

[Fool Count]

146. I will stay here as long as I want, whether you like it or not,

so get used to it. What I accused you of (I am amazed I need to explain it in such detail) was apologizing
for mass murderers who imposed and maintained the Iraq sanctions. I don't give a flying fuck whether they
were "perfectly legal" or not. They killed millions of Iraqi children just as surely as by putting a gun
to their heads and pulling a trigger. If you think that their "perfect legality" makes it alright you are
one repulsive apologist for murder and I have nothing else to say to you. That's all.

[BzaDem]

152. In case I was misunderstood

I never intended to imply that you would ever voluntarily leave, and I apologize if that is how you interpreted my comment.

As I said, enjoy your stay.

[coalition_unwilling]

200. I've placed so many people on Ignore for their displays of

atavistic blood lust, that I can only guess at what you are responding to. I'm with you though. Hang in there :)

[leftynyc]

107. Don't expect an answer

They have their narrative and are going to stick with it. America=bad. We never do anything right.

[EFerrari]

168. That number is from The Lancet. n/t

[leftynyc]

193. You mean this Lancet?

The ones who pulled numbers out of their ass and refused to show how they got them? That Lancet?

http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=6799754&page=1

[EFerrari]

211. The Lancet is the most respected medical journal in the world.

No one has disproved those numbers.

[leftynyc]

228. Which is why even they

questioned the study and it's conclusions.

[Recursion]

237. A: NEJM, B: yes, several have several times

The entire methodology was bizarre and basically puts every death above the "official" rate reported under Saddam's government as the fault of the invasion.

[sabrina 1]

229. Wow, we only killed 110,000 innnocent people. Give us an award!!

And the lives of their soldiers, mostly poor conscripts forced into the military, don't count either. And the fact that they did NOTHING to us, forget about also. Ignore the maimed, the half a million children we killed by sanctions, and the 300,000 we killed in the first Gulf War. WE WERE JUSTIFIED!! Because we are the USA! USA! Don't worry about the raped and tortured either. All this killing and torture of people who have the nerve to be sitting on OUR God-given oil is justified!!

So sad, truly. The left USED to care about these gross violations of human rights. But no matter how the US tries to justify any of it, no one in the world cares much what we think anymore. Our symbol around the world is and will continue to be the man standing on the box covered in the cape being tortured. And we will continue to be viewed as the biggest threat to world peace. Until one day maybe, we find leaders who have the strength of character to begin the work of ending our bloody history and start using more civilized policies to get what we want. But that would take a huge amount of strength and I don't see anyone on the horizon who has that kind of character so far.

The US is not a sympathetic nation. Our claiming victimhood lost its effect ever since people around the world got to see the results of Bush's Iraq war, the photos of piled up bodies lying outside of morques because there was no room for them anymore, the orphaned children wandering the streets, starving because their parents had been killed. And of course, the photos from Abu Ghraib, including the news that children and women were raped and tortured by the US.

So, we killed OBL and expect to claim victimhood for why we could not try to apply the rule of law which we continually claim to respect. We can try, but our own brutality and lack of respect for innocent life, has made that a lost cause. And it has weakened our country, as OBL intended. This was his greatest victory. America's loss of status and respect in the world. You would almost think we wanted him to achieve his evil goals.

[JohnnyRingo]

219. Al Jazeera

[Hannah Bell]

56. no, it wouldn't console her at all. she's twelve.

considering the black crimes of their government, americans have historically gotten off very lightly in the "death & destruction from foreign shores" department.

maybe the lucky bubble they live in is why so many of them act like 911 was the worst thing that every happened in human history, warranting some special award for particularly tragic and unmerited suffering.

[SoCalDem]

60. )ne story said there were 23 children & 9 women.. n/t

[EFerrari]

169. That one story is the outlier. n/t

[SoCalDem]

189. I keep thinking of what a miserable life those kids must have had

no matter how many there were..locked behind walls, totally isolated:(

[EFerrari]

209. I can't even begin to imagine their lives.

[woo me with science]

216. Bin Laden and child rearing,

according to his son, as reported by ABCNews:

"Osama bin Laden raised his family of five wives (plus one marriage that was annulled) and more than a dozen children in a way meant to make them tough and ready for the rigors of war. He shunned air conditioning and refrigerators in the desert heat, banned toys and the kind of laughter that showed too many teeth, refused to wince when his men used Omar's puppies as the victims in chemical weapons tests. He would cane his children for the slightest misbehavior, at times hitting them so hard the stick would break."


http://abcnews.go.com/International/osama-bin-ladens-son-death-unleash-violent-enemies/story?id=13509779&page=2

[EFerrari]

220. My favorite cousins went to school with the kids of the man responsible for

the death squads in El Salvador on that end. Unfortunately, sociopaths reproduce and I guess those of us with normally flawed parents should kiss the floor we weren't born to a Bin Laden or a D'Aubuisson.

[SmileyRose]

68. I feel for the girl, I really do.

Her father is a terrorist and mass murderer and she was unlucky to even be born into that fundie world. I grieve for her as much as I grieve for the kids of my best friend ever that was killed in 9/11.

All that said, I do not fucking care how they killed that douchebag. I'm not celebrating, but I'm glad that asshole is dead. Period.

[woo me with science]

125. Yup. She's being used now.

Par for the course.

[adigal]

69. We didn't harm the children, unlike Osama, who didn't care

who he killed. We treated him better than he would have treated us. We did what we had to do.

[WinkyDink]

85. n/m

[coalition_unwilling]

205. That should be the new standard in U.S. foreign policy we

aspire to: we treat you better than OBL would have.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[NYC_SKP]

71. I'm not feeling like he was a "Father Knows Best" or "Ward Cleaver" kind of dad...

So who's to say seeing him die (if that even fucking happened) was such a bad thing?

BTW, Father Knows Best and Ward Cleaver are references to what we used to call "television programs".

(dating myself :P)

:patirot:

[Bonobo]

72. So you think that seeing a father killed might actually be 'therapeutic', right?

That's either a sarcastic joke you're making or you have a pretty poor ass sense of human psychology.

[NYC_SKP]

75. Actually... No, not even close.

I'm suggesting that the girl, as likely as not, witnessed a whole lot of FUCKED UP father-ness in her first twelve years (unless anyone wants to argue that fine point).

....

And that as traumatic as this might have been (if it even fucking happened and it probably didn't) that it's quite POSSIBLY better for her than the future years having him as a "father".

....

How's that, more clear about what I meant?

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

79. "So who's to say seeing him die (if that even fucking happened) was such a bad thing?"

Weird, it still sounds to me like you're saying that seeing him die wasn't such a bad thing.

As to whether or not it happened, it is as least as likely as the idea that he was shot while using a human shield and waving a weapon at the SEALS.

[NYC_SKP]

133. I'm suggesting the alternatives might have been just as bad or worse. eom

[woo me with science]

170. DU was not shedding many tears after a 10-year-old boy shot his white supremacist father.

This girl was being raised by a fundy mass murderer, and we are supposed to be sorry we took him out?

[WinkyDink]

90. whatever

[CBGLuthier]

73. There are easily several thousand children who i care more about than her.

Sorry kid, your daddy was an asshole murderer.

[WinkyDink]

94. oh, me, too. millions.

[coalition_unwilling]

208. Because, after all, she was just a terrorist

disguised as a child, right?

:sarcasm:

You disgust me.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[sabrina 1]

232. You mean like the ones we've been killing with drones

around the world?? Poor peasant children. Or the ones we slaughtered in Iraq? Children are innocent. Didn't we used to respect that premise here on the left?

[readmoreoften]

288. You should be using the term "left" lightly. Most of these people don't give a shit about

the children we're bombing to death in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. They don't even care if it continues anymore. All they care about is getting Obama elected and fighting in favor of "just" 10 year long murder campaigns that have the goal of killing one man and that don't end after that man is dead.

[WilliamPitt]

81. Good thing it's not an American source.

Now we can believe it without question.

(facepalm)

This place blows my mind sometimes.

[JoePhilly]

100. Any source that says "Obama Bad" gets immediate credit here.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solomon]

206. Good God!!

:rofl:

Damn Will. You DO have a way with words. Yesh, yesh indeed.

[lynne]

83. I'm not gullible enough to believe a story from a reported child when we -

- have no idea if this child even exists. If she does exists, what makes anyone think she would be telling the truth? If she is the daughter of OBL and has been living with him all these years, she has lived a horrid life hidden away from the world and has been subjected to OBL's preaching of hatred and murder. At this point, she would be nothing but another brainwashed victim of her father.

And - even if its true - can't say it was a bad thing. She may not know it yet but she was done a big favor.

[chillspike]

86. What's probably more accurate is

bin laden tried to surrender but the seals had strict rules of engagement to shoot him immediately if he did anything other than follow their direct orders to go on the ground or put his hands up. He probably didn't do it and bang they shot him. The seals are going in there most probably thinking this guy is going to have a bomb vest on or maybe the whole room he's in is packed with explosives, like happened in Spain, and all he needs is one second to hit a switch and he blows everyone up with him. if you're a seal you're worried about your own life. So you're not going to give him much leeway in terms of him obeying your orders. He probably hesitated and they shot him.

[Azathoth]

88. Yes, because the information coming from Pakistani authorities has been so reliable so far

n/t

[Ikonoklast]

127. Ah, c'mon now!

Give the proper Pakistani authority a bag of money and he'll say just about anything you want him to.

Or get amnesia, temporary blindness, go deaf, or just about any other crooked bribe-taking tricks you want!

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[octothorpe]

101. How do you think it should have been handled?

Should have they not done anything and let OBL continue on?
Should have they sent a couple guys to drive up and knock on the door?

[WinkyDink]

117. ---

[octothorpe]

137. Hmm, I was actually hoping to get your opinion :(

I wasn't being combative or trying to change your opinion. I'm always interested in hearing other viewpoints. :) I hope you change your mind and repost your thoughts.

[JoePhilly]

102. Their father put them in that position. We did not send troops after him for grins.

Osama put the lives of his own children at risk. No one else did that.

[hayu_lol]

104. Two of his four wives were in the home at the time of the attack...

and several of his 19 children(I've read that 6 were present).

Osama certainly did not worry himself over the terrorizing of the children whose parents and relatives died on 9-11. How many American children saw the broadcasts of the planes flying into the WTC which were played over and over again?

Why are not the nay-sayers asking themselves why such a prime target chose to surround himself with wives and children? The world wonders.

[WinkyDink]

118. well, so much for that.

[BzaDem]

119. Are you seriously claiming we should not go after terrorists if it might upset their children?

:wtf:

[WinkyDink]

121. -----

[seabeyond]

105. maybe not as great a terror of being on a plane and seeing a building in front of you, or

looking out a building window and seeing a plane head towards you

or maybe the heat from a massive fire, knowing you cant get out

or a parent watching it on tv knowing child is in that building

or a wife watching the firemen go in to save those people

obl created this for his children.

[WinkyDink]

115. -----

[lynne]

106. If you need to blame someone, blame the father -

- he obviously knew someone was eventually coming for him or he wouldn't have squirreled himself away in a fortress without so much as internet access. Why did he imprison his own child inside that compound when he was aware of the danger?

There's your mass-murdering culprit.

[leftynyc]

113. Did the US drop those kids there

or was their mass murdering father responsible for putting them between him and an international manhunt? The only one responsible for women and children being their was bin laden.

[Old and In the Way]

270. Perhaps the lesson here is, if you declare war on the US, you might not

want to assume you'll enjoy a long life of domestic tranquility. I'm sorry a 12 YO may have (and we don't really know this for sure, do we?) seen her father brutally killed...but this one is on OBL's conscience, not mine.

[Ikonoklast]

120. You need to blame the person responsible for putting them in that position.

Osama bin Laden knew exactly what would happen to him one day, yet he cared so little for the lives of his many wives and children by putting them in harm's way.

Fuck that dead mass murdering madman, and anyone that feels sorry for him.

He was a sociopath of the highest order, and all some here can do is wring their hands over his well-deserved abrupt deprival of life.


"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILLLLLDDDDDRRRREEEEEEENNNNN???!!!"....sounds just like the same lame excuse the lunatic fringe right-wingers trying to shove their fake morality down everyone's throat.

Fuck that noise.

[scheming daemons]

130. If we were like THEM, this 12-year-old girl would be dead too.

Her father died the way he deserved to die.

It is because we are DIFFERENT than them that she is alive to tell her story.

[sabrina 1]

241. We are like them! You are forgetting the hundreds of childfren

who did nothing to us, whose parents are peasants, not terrorists, that we are killing every day in Pakistan and AFghanistan and Yemen also with our cowardly, remote-controlled drones.

Look, if you are happy about how we do things, at least don't try to claim that we are different than them. We are not.

[Freddie Stubbs]

131. Good. Now we have an admission from bin Laden's family that he is dead

Hopefully this will put to rest the conspiracy theorists.

[demwing]

174. bingo /nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

135. That means he lived longer than he deserved.

if only a few minutes or seconds.

[truebrit71]

144. So say the Pakistanis...the folks that "didn't know he was there"..or did, and didn't do anything...

...about it...

Yeah, sorry, I'm not buying...

[alcibiades_mystery]

155. Summary of this story: Pakistan trying to cover its ass, US Debbie Downers ready to believe anything

that justifies their downerness.

Not a whole lot more to it than that.

[truebrit71]

158. I agree 100%

...

[WildEyedLiberal]

240. +100

:thumbsup:

[woo me with science]

159. We have a winner. nt

[tammywammy]

166. +1 n/t

[spanone]

149. why is a 12 year old child in a terrorist compound? great dad.

[RegieRocker]

156. Not surprised. She was probably forced to say it. Fuel for their cause.

Doubtful this happened.

[Rage for Order]

161. Good. 2 bullets are far cheaper than a trial

Can I get an "Amen!" for the double-tap to the head!!!

:applause:

[tallahasseedem]

171. Got that right!

I get happier by the day that this happened.

[JonLP24]

204. That's sick

This isn't even about Bin Laden to me. I think trials are a very important part of this country, due process, ability to face your accuser in trial, that kind of thing. I would be very scared to live in this country if the public at-large felt killing the suspect is better than a trial because it costs too much.

I'm not saying this story is true but some people here are reacting as if "So what, he is custody"(To be clear those saying the SEALS were reacting to a firefight or whatever is not who I'm talking about). If we start killing people in custody that is a very scary sign.

I noticed a few people who were saying a trial is a bad idea because of a circus or whatever mentioned they were sickened by posts they've seen here the last few days. Well I'm sickened by posts supporting shortcuts to trials.

[coalition_unwilling]

217. I'm glad there are people like you on DU to keep my sharply-reduced

faith in humanity alive.

Honestly, the displays of atavistic blood lust here on DU are so unbecoming and unseemly. I've slowly come to the realization that anyone who is OK with OBL not getting a trial before being executed is someone I really don't have a whole hell of a lot to say to any more. (Hence, my Ignore list has mushroomed in scope.)

[coalition_unwilling]

214. Here's a modest proposal for you: let's just execute anyone

accused of a capital crime without first bothering with such niceties as a trial. It's so much cheaper that way. For added effect, let's execute the accused in front of his or her kids.

USA! USA! USA!

:sarcasm:

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[Rebubula]

246. Ignore List

Wow...that is 3 people you allegedly put on ignore for posting simple, honest thoughts.

You sure are thin skinned and like to tell people all about it.


I know...I know...welcome to your ignore list.

[coalition_unwilling]

258. Nah, I just don't feel I have much to discuss with anyone who

would argue that bin Laden didn't deserve a trial before being executed. I mean, really, what else is there to discuss and still remain civil?

Not sure if you want to have a meta-discussion about the Ignore list and its uses.

[Rage for Order]

262. That's what happens when the military raids an enemy compund

The military takes out all people believed to be hostile or a possible threat. There is no time for asking questions, every decision is split-second. Bin Laden was not an American citizen, and he wasn't on US soil, so he gets no use of the American justice system. Perhaps he should have turned himself in at The Hague if he wanted a trial.

:shrug:

[Union Scribe]

286. What's it called when someone posts the same thing over and over?

Some kind of...meat-related thing...darn my memory...

[browntyphoon]

235. AAAMMMEEEENNN

Like i said before. Fuck that guy. Through out history there have been people who just needed to be killed.

[jbnow]

163. We don't know what is true, it's that simple. If they did

take him alive and then drag him in front of his kids only to shoot him, that would be horrible.

But why are so many willing to believe this based on some Pakistan official reportedly told some reporter what he said a kid says...
We don't know what's true and we have a long history of lies but does that mean it makes sense to believe any bad thing we hear?

If we want to believe bad things, search a little. I've seen articles that say the place was really a CIA safe house, that it was the Pakistanis actually attacked the compound and we came in later to take body, that bin laden died years ago and this is a look alike and this was faked to boost Obama ratings...and more. They are there. I read some. While we can't believe them at the same time we can take turns believing them and saying how this isn't the change we voted for and how corrupt and vile we are

Or we could wait and see what we learn

O

[Marrah_G]

167. I feel badly for the child but it is her dead father's responsibility

He is the one who put the women and children in harms way.

Unfortunately the child will probably never understand what a monster her father was.

She will be taught what a hero he was.

[demwing]

172. So the daughter confirms Bin Laden is dead

regardless of how it happened, he's dead, end of story.

[flamingdem]

230. Good point! Conspiracy theorists have to contend w/his daughter confirming nt

[DefenseLawyer]

175. Why would anyone immediately believe a story like this?

Could it be true? Of course. Would I just assume that it's true? No. When the nuts latch on to some cockamamie story we deride them for being tools and spreading lies. But if the story fits your world view? Hey unnamed sources from the Pakistani military attribute a statement to a 12 year old girl? Good enough for me!

[EFerrari]

207. Why would anyone immediately believe any story?

We don't have to believe anything. We can compare it to what we've already been told.

This account differs from the White House (today) on the floor where things happened and they add a dead body. That's pretty much all.

Al Arabiya is not Press TV. Their headlines can be a little hysterical and occasionally they get something wrong but, they make corrections. They're better than the right wing nutcase outlets in this country.

[DefenseLawyer]

264. I think there are plenty of stories I would immediately believe

If my wife tells me she went to the grocery store today, I'm going to immediately believe that. There is very little reason not to. But with this story there are LOTS of reasons not to, from the unnamed source, to the age and position of the person supposedly giving the information, to the agenda of the organization putting the story out. And yet there are plenty of people in this thread that seem more than happy to immediately assume this story is true and go from there.

[MS68]

179. I don't think they had any intention of taking him alive

Killing him probably took a little wind out of his followers' sails. A long and drawn out affair of capturing, convicting and executing him would have fired them up and definitely made him more of a martyr and I think would have incited more violence.

[mfcorey1]

181. Liar!

[flamingdem]

223. So we're supposed to believe a 12 year old rather than the entire US government?

Give me a break

[browntyphoon]

224. Who cares?

Fuck that guy. The people who died with him should have known it was a bad idea.

[flamingdem]

227. There was a good explanation of the conditions of the room

Osama in robes, in motion, dark room, woman rushing at the Navy Seal... what would you do? Shot or be shot since you don't know what he's got and you have one second to decide.

[browntyphoon]

233. not even a question. take out the threat. being a terrorist and fucking one usually turns out badly.

[EFerrari]

244. That 12 yr old actually is confirming our government's story. n/t

[LostInAnomie]

231. That's a... shame?

Oh, wait. I don't give a shit.

[rollin74]

234. I don't care if it is true

Osama got what he deserved. Good job SEALs.

[DainBramaged]

257. Hmmm,OBL sent people strapped with explosives to kill men women AND children

and this is unacceptable?

[dems_rightnow]

261. Right before we killed 12 more of Ghaddafi's kids.

Maybe was, maybe wasn't. But these people know how to use psychology.

[Maru Kitteh]

263. And?

[cliffordu]

268. I'm not buying it.

Even in my day we would have killed the fucker out of the view of his children.

:sarcasm:

But really, I'm NOT buying it.

[Rex]

279. And here I heard they double tapped him from a distance.

The stories abound.

[Raine]

283. I don't believe it, it's sound like total bullshit

and the kind of garbage that you find posted in the freak republic. :mad:

[EFerrari]

284. What part of it don't you believe?

It doesn't conflict in any way with the White House's account.

U.S. team's mission was to kill bin Laden, not capture
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

[jefferson_dem]

291. I feel for the girl...

but, frankly, I don't give a shit how the piece of shit was killed.

[divineorder]

293. I feel for the girl, and hope she gets counseling.

On the other hand, she and her siblings may be better off in the long run. Imagine the life they have lived with a father on the run, the fanatic beliefs, the inability to have friends over. Now they have a chance to actually, if the world is compassionate, to live a normal life. Instead of growing up in an Al-Queda world with an increasing paranoid father and an implied desire of him to continue his mission, they could decide to do whatever they wanted to do with the rest of their lives. Think of no longer looking over their shoulders for lurking strangers.

He can't have been a prize of a father either. To mastermind what he masterminded on September 11th, he had to have a rock where his heart would be. To keep them with him in isolation, knowing that they could be bombed, caught in a crossfire with rival factions, was cruel to the extreme.