The Dalai Lama was not making an analogy between swatting a mosquito & killing Osama.

[Luminous Animal]

He was answering questions and the question about Osama and the question about the Dalai Lama's own ethical lapses were entirely different questions and answers.

Another lie in a long litany of lies.

From the Dalai Lama's website (emphasis mine)...
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/672-his-holiness-talks-about-secular-ethics-and-human-development-at-university-of-southern-california

"His Holiness then answered questions, some of which were submitted through the Internet. The first question was on His Holiness’ emphasis on compassion as a basis of ethics. It asked whether in some situation ensuring justice is more important than being compassionate to the perpetrator of a crime. It referred to the news of the death of Osama Bin Laden and the celebrations of it by some, and asked where compassion fit in with this and ethics. In his response, His Holiness emphasized the need to find a distinction between the action and the actor. He said in the case of Bin Laden, his action was of course destructive and the September 11 events killed thousands of people. So his action must be brought to justice, His Holiness said. But with the actor we must have compassion and a sense of concern, he added. His Holiness said therefore the counter measure, no matter what form it takes, has to be compassionate action. His Holiness referred to the basis of the practice of forgiveness saying that it, however, did not mean that one should forget what has been done.

His Holiness then answered a few other questions, including one relating to how a student should approach the issue of holding on to one’s principles while facing the reality of having to repay student loans and earn a living working for corporations whose principles did not complement his thinking. Here His Holiness said he wanted to quote the Buddha’s teaching that you are your own master and said the student should judge. To a question on whether His Holiness could think of any unethical acts that he had committed, His Holiness responded in the positive referring to “my relation with mosquitoes,” much to the amusement of the audience. His Holiness expanded saying if there was no risk of malaria then he would tolerate a mosquito or two sucking blood from his arm but when they come one after another, he would lose his patience."

I am so fucking sick of the lying fucking spin.

[hlthe2b]

1. "Another lie in a long litany of lies?"

Who exactly is lying?

[Luminous Animal]

4. The LA Times article and headline. Which has been gleefully reposted here.

"Dalai Lama suggests Osama bin Laden's death was justified"
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0504-dalai-lama-20110504,0,7229481.story

[hlthe2b]

9. The website offers a summary of the speech, not a transcript...

Do you deny it is possible that in their summary, they may have chosen what they wanted to emphasize? Clearly, the Dalia Lama and Buddhism is in no way associated with vengeance nor violence, but there are ambiguities that they acknowledge in response to the world around us.

[Luminous Animal]

11. And my point is, that they are entirely two different questions.

1 dealt with Osama the other dealt with the Dalai Lama's own ethical lapses. Even the original articles about this could not directly make the connection but had to use a slight of hand in order to do so.

The actual quote from the article:

"As a human being, Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness, the Dalai Lama said in answer to a question about the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader. But, he said, “Forgiveness doesn’t mean forget what happened. … If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures.”"

[hlthe2b]

12. and without a transcript, how do you know they used sleight of hand

to make the connection?

I attended with great pleasure a series of lectures by the Dalai Lama nearly two decades ago and took copious notes. I was always amazed that the official summary description of that days' lectures never quite meshed with my interpretation, which of course I took to mean I was simply unschooled in the language and background of his teachings. However, it is certainly possible that the official representative chosen to summarize had purposely selected what they wanted to emphasize that day and not that my thoughts on what he was saying were necessarily wrong.

I'd like to see this question submitted to both LA Times reporter and the Dalai Lama's own website representative for clarification.

[EFerrari]

13. Sleight. Because they collasped the answers to two different questions.

[hlthe2b]

15. I don't think you really responded to my posting above...

:shrug: I think frankly my point has been made. The Dalai Lama's complete message is missing, so it is hard to know.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Here is the video. I'm at work so I can't watch it. It won't matter if I'm right, though.

The lie has been told in headlines all over the world.

And Al Gore invented the internet, John Kerry faked his wounds, and Obama was born in Kenya.

http://www.goodhappens.org/

[hlthe2b]

18. Thanks... I will definitely watch it...

:shrug:

But, I do think that his reps will likely issue a clarification if his meaning has been badly misrepresented.

[Luminous Animal]

20. Oops. Below is the link.

http://www.goodhappens.org/

[coalition_unwilling]

14. The LA Times is currently among the most sucking of major dailies

in the U.S. Last time I checked, paid daily subscriptions had falled well below 1,000,000.

Disclaimer: Used to work for a Times subsidiary that also sucked big time.

[NYC_SKP]

2. We can have compassion and forgiveness AND prevent future acts of violence with...

...a clear conscience.

Given the choice between being bitten and contracting malaria or letting the poor thing live, even his highness would kill the bastard mosquito.

:patriot:

[Luminous Animal]

7. The questions were entirely unrelated. You are putting words in the Dalai Lama's mouth

and intentions into his head.

1) One question dealt with Osama.
2) Another question dealt with his own ethical lapses.

For all you know, the questions could have been 20 minutes apart.

[quinnox]

3. That makes sense

There was an effort to paint Buddhists as clapping along with the rest of the celebration of bin Laden's death recently at DU, and I thought it was very odd.

Because that kind of sentiment is the complete opposite of Buddha's teachings of non-violence.

[hlthe2b]

5. Talk about spin... I saw nothing suggesting Buddhists "were clapping"

or "celebrating" in any way.

[quinnox]

6. you missed it then

there was a definite effort with a couple threads to act as if Buddhists were going along with the death celebrations just like everyone else.

[hlthe2b]

10. I saw an article that suggested the Dalai Lama had acknwledged

the ethical ambiguities of dealing with someone like Osam Bin Laden that had been interpreted, at least by the article, as avoiding an absolute condemnation of Obama's killing. I did not read that article as suggesting he "approved," in keeping with tradition Buddhist teachings, but that he chose to acknowledge the ethical ambiguities. I certainly read nothing that suggested he was "celebrating."

[GodlessBiker]

19. If there are "ethical ambiguities," then it is is possible for a Buddhist to approve ...

of the killing and still remain within a Buddhist tradition?

[socialist_n_TN]

22. Whatever is done, needs to be done with mindfulness.......

and compassion. Buddhism is NOT a dogmatic religion. We each make our own way to enlightenment. Ergo, a Buddhist COULD approve of the killing if he/she mindfully came to the conclusion that it WAS necessary and he/she would still remain within the Buddhist tradition.

Now, I don't think that a Buddhist could CELEBRATE the killing, no matter how much he/she approved of it, and still remain in the Buddhist tradition. I don't see that as being compassionate. But then I don't see celebrating the death to be even in the CHRISTIAN tradition either.

[GodlessBiker]

23. Thank you. I understand. However, wouldn't the - how shall I say? - prohibition ...

Or at least the discouraging of celebratory actions be a little piece of dogma?

I think Buddhism is a system of thought and action with some of the least dogma of organized philosophies, but it can still be dogmatic (at least at its worst).

[socialist_n_TN]

29. Not really dogma, as in written down..........

strictures that MUST be believed in order to BE a Buddhist. They don't call Jews, Christians, and Muslims Peoples of the BOOK for nothing. Those written down strictures are what most people (OK, me anyway :)) consider dogma.

Buddhists believe that the UNIVERSE is set up with certain immutable spiritual laws. If you follow those laws, you're on the path to enlightenment and happiness/contentment in this life. If not, you're not. Compassion is one of those immutable laws. But there's a lot of flexibility even in compassion. Sometimes mindfully killing somebody can be the most compassionate thing you could do for THEM. But it might be wrong for YOU. In Buddhism, it's all tied in together, but it's all done mindfully. Each individual makes his own way mindfully, not dogmatically (by the Book).

[a la izquierda]

27. Excellent answer.

I'm in the process of learning more about Buddhism in order to convert (whatever that means in this instance). Initially, I exclaimed happily when I heard they got OBL...almost immediately, I knew that was not a good response (but I do think a human one at any rate).

I had a long chat with my yoga instructor (a Buddhist) the following morning.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Well here's the thing about that. We're human, so we have

emotions and reactions. The idea is not to NOT have those emotions and reactions, but to NOTE them as they happen and, above all, NOT TO ATTACH TO THOSE EMOTIONS AND REACTIONS. They flow through you without getting their hooks in you.

Eventually, you get to the point where you get good at noticing your OWN reactions and emotions and where inside yourself those feeling come from.

With anger, your non attached self notices your anger. "Look, I'm getting angry." Then you can go a little farther. "Look, I'm getting angry at that bully. I don't like bullies because a State Trooper stopped my Mom for no reason when I was a kid and bullied her."

I'm of the Chan (Zen) tradition, so mindfulness is a priority with Zen. I guess that's why I relate everything TO being mindful.

[Metta]

32. No, not at all possible.

The first vow all Buddhists take is to refrain from doing *any* harm to any living being.

[yawnmaster]

26. perhaps they were clapping with one hand. eom

[socialist_n_TN]

31. I can do that..........

I learned it from Stephen Wright. At least, I THINK it was Stephen Wright. One of those comedians anyway. Cats and comedians make for the most natural Zen masters.

[yawnmaster]

33. saw Bart Simpson do it once. eom

[EFerrari]

8. Yep.

[cali]

16. thank you. I pointed that out this morning.

and got shot down for it.l

[Better Believe It]

21. I don't support the "God King of Tibet" and like him about as much as the current "Pope of Rome".

[Luminous Animal]

24. That is pretty much how I feel but, for some reason, a lot of non-Buddhists

give him a lot of respect and some here on DU were gleeful when they thought they had something with which to bludgeon those of us who are critical of extra-judicial assassinations.

It's like, "See, you naive bleeding heart rule of law pacifists, even the Dalai Lama thinks Osama deserves to get popped."

[SidDithers]

25. And there it is...

But I picked the wrong Dalai Lama thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1034426&mesg_id=1034732

Now, tell us about how the poor Chinese are victims of the Tibetan terrorists.

Sid

[Luminous Animal]

28. Kick because the lie is still circulating and Al Gore invented the internet.