I've gone to the mattresses against 2 people in the past 2 days...

[mreilly]

... friends of a friend on Facebook who challenged my claims that the tea party is inherently racist. To give you a background, I've debated fucking right-wingers on the internet since the mid 1990's and have a toolbelt of sorts that I routinely use to strike hard and eviscerate their claims, generally hitting on the "show me your evidence" button and following up to dismantle their inevitable attempts to pass off opinion as fact, shriek insults in place of a rational argument, and proclaim GOP propaganda as sacred truth. I am a persistent son-of-a-bitch who will drive my opponents back to the Great Wall of China if that's what it takes when I have the truth behind me.

The first example was an individual who loudly objected to a calm discussion on FB between my friend and I about the racist motives of the tea party. He began hurling a lot of "I don't see any reason to malign these poor righteous people" type claims, and when presented with example after example after example of bona fide evidence showing the tea party to be guilty of racist statements/signs/slogans was pushed back into a corner. Another individual in the discussion - who had actually attended TP rallies, unlike this defender - backed me up, and stated he'd heard the racial remarks firsthand. No, no, the defender insisted - couldn't be true. Wasn't valid. He refused to acknowledge it. He kept proclaiming the examples I'd shown of racism to be "aberrations" which weren't representative of the movement. I nailed his ass to the wall by inquiring what burden of proof he would accept to acknowledge the tea party was racist; what level of evidence we could both agree would be sufficient to establish this fact. He ran away from that, publicly stating he wasn't going to let me define the rope I'd use to hang him with, knowing that the moment I got him to define what would be acceptable proof I would then provide said proof and his ass would be in a sling; game over. This is what these people do, folks: they RUN from the argument (usually with a lot of sneering about how it's not worth their time). When they recite their bullshit claims and are challenged on them, they disappear. This is why every one of these bastards needs to be challenged on EVERY SINGLE FACT they ever attempt to produce. Republicans will lie. They will lie, and lie, and lie, and lie, and are probably not even aware of lying. And I don't engage them in debates to convince them to come over to my side (a lost cause; all that happens when their BS is disproven is that they become even more angry about liberals and even more determined to endlessly chant said BS over and over), but rather to show them that liberals like me will strike them hard and fast, and rub their own noses in their claims, so they'd better watch out because they'll be held accountable.

The second example was a lovely tea partying housewife who elected to start squawking in the same thread that I was an idiot and was unfairly judging these poor people; slandering them as racists for no reason. She attempted to boil the multiple pieces of evidence of racism on the TP I'd provided down into ONE person holding ONE racist sign. Again, this is what these folks do - either they don't comprehend the issues and misrepresent the facts, or they deliberately lie. I invited her to debunk the evidence I'd provided about racism in that movement, warned her I'd be fact-checking her claims, and informed her that her tirades and insults were irrelevant compared to the value of the proof that she was up against. I told her to address the issues with a reasonable response, and stated when she'd done so we would next be discussing the documented FACT of the white supremacists attracted to the tea party movement - contrary to her fairy tale claims that it's just a nice bunch of concerned citizens from all walks of life. As in the first example, that was enough for this poor soul. Gone from the discussion. Too much to handle. Probably went off and whined about those know-it-all elitist liberals (and I make no bones about the fact that if you are a dumb fucker who listens to and swallows GOP propaganda, then - yes, I AM superior to you, you piece of shit).

I am always confident in the righteousness of my views, but never more confident than when I put those views to the test, head-to-head against right-wingers. I don't spend a huge amount of time debating these imbeciles, but when I do I extract every ounce of flesh and blood, and batter them into defeat. Time and time again I have seen them lie, and run, and evade, and dismiss what they can't handle, and it only serves to strengthen the foundation of what I believe in. On that note I suppose these poor misbegotten individuals serve some purpose after all...

[Snoutport]

1. you should coach us all!!

[Control-Z]

2. Seriously.

And that fact sheet(s). We could do well with a copy and the links that back it all. I, for one, become paralyzed, both in mind and mouth, during confrontations. Even though I know I'm right, and know why I am correct, for some reason I become disabled.

[murielm99]

5. I'm with you on this.

I sometimes become paralyzed, too, especially if there is more than one of them. I write LTTE's just fine. But I can become so flabbergasted by the craziness of some of the things they say that I just freeze.

Yes, please give us a fact sheet and links. I would like to print it and use it.

[DenverDad]

20. I also become verbally paralyzed in those discussions

because, even at this point, I am caught off-guard by the utter stupidity I come up against. It literally leaves me speechless.

[elocs]

3. But please break up those big paragraphs--they make me cross-eyed.

Shorter paragraphs are much easier to read and that's why newspapers use them.

[patrice]

4. You are awesome! I salute you!

:patriot:

[mreilly]

6. Thanks all

... all I did really was look up the facts and keep hammering those home. The tea party IS inherently racist. No, not every single member can be proven racist, but the overall motives and intentions of the promoters and supporters of this movement have racist undertones. The signs they carry. The anti-black statements they get caught making (look up Marilyn Davenport and Grady Warren). The comments they make on internet forums - and this is really where you see the pricks for what they are, for they don't have the guts to go public with their racism, or are told to keep it on a leash lest the public eye scrutinize them further, but online these shits operate from a "no holds barred" standpoint and my Lord, how the Obama=ape comments keep rolling in from these fucktards. The endless attempts to belittle and invalidate Obama as being a non-citizen, "not one of us," "out to destroy our way of life," and every single claim they make that attempts to depict him as an outsider not from this country, who wasn't born here, and who is a representative of an external (Muslim) agency. Check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/20/report-links-tea-party-to-white-supremacist-groups for further information, as well as http://www.teapartynationalism.com.

These rotten tea-party supporting scumbags are routinely the ones who go around publicly preaching that they're so tolerant and so inclusive and so committed to the outlook espoused by MLK (that people not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character - whenever I hear a Republican say that I immediately assume that the fucker in question is a cross-burning Klan member, for time and time again when I've scratched the surface of the personalities of these people I've seen a person who tells "nigger" jokes within when they think it's safe to do so).

I don't engage in much taunting or insults when I debate these types; my schtick is to remain infuriatingly polite and to keep digging away at them via thinly-veiled attacks on their intelligence or integrity. I force them to stay on track with my requests for evidence/rebuttals to my own evidence and refuse to let them twist the conversation in other directions to suit their bellowing tirades. If I catch them using an opinion instead of a fact (or a disproven fact), I seize on that and never let it go. I usually take their claims and direct them right back to the source (e.g. they insist liberals are all brainwashed as meanwhile they get their talking points straight from Fox News, day after day after day). My goal is to provoke them into screaming fits as I stand by with a calm yet quizzical expression ("surely if your side of the argument were valid you wouldn't be demonstrating such a high level of frustration and animosity towards your opponent, now would you?").

[patrice]

10. There are lots of people who browse those threads. When I was doing that sort of

thing, during the campaign mostly, in different FaceBook groups, The Coffee Party in particular, sometimes I'd get dozens of Likes from people who never posted, sometimes even several days later there'd be some more Likes.

There are people out there who appreciate a good rational case, especially with some nice sharp facts.

[socialist_n_TN]

14. And THAT'S the reason you argue with those idiots........

Not to change their minds, but for the undecideds or politically naive out there who NEED TO SEE AN ALTERNATIVE TO THEIR BULLSHIT!

[patrice]

18. We here at DU need to remember that we are a little different: more verbal, more articulate. Lots of

people are just naturally the opposite of us, not that that is bad. It's just different. I had to learn to appreciate those people when I taught high school. There are people who are just more naturally listeners/browsers in this case. I know I get into it sometimes too . . . the outrageous stuff you'll see around the internet. The odds are that there are some well educated conservatives, centrists & moderates out there just grazing. I learned from teaching to never say anything that I would not say in front of a-n-y-o-n-e. That's a good principle for the internet too, plus it forces you to use your skills to the fullest.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. I do not disagree with this..........

I know I'm MUCH more verbal and language based than the average engineer. I also know that I'm WOEFULLY inept with numbers.

No, we shouldn't condescend with our comments and arguments just because we're more verbal and language based and somebody else is not. HOWEVER, we DO have to have no mercy with ignorance, especially WILLFUL ignorance. The willfully ignorant are trying to usurp our rights and they DESERVE no mercy. Verbally that is.

I also submit that we have to argue with PASSION. Because PASSION is what convinces people nowdays. The difference between us and the WILLFULLY ignorant Teabaggers that we argue with for the soul of the undecided is that we not only have PASSION, we also have truth. Passion will trump truth unless the truth is delivered with passion.

[patrice]

23. I could not possibly agree more. It's interesting that what we're talking about is the exact

co-relate of what IS going on in our own communities and, indeed!, even our own families.

Your point about being courageous for the truth, a.k.a. Reality, is a fundamental one. That courage requires not only that we NOT go for the cheap shot, i.e. personal attacks and insults, but also that we don't "pull any of the punches" with/for the truth, no matter what that costs all of the way from the bottom to the top of the political hierarchy, i.e. at our own level (in-group, out-groups, local powers, "the cool kids", etc. etc.) all of the way to the top. We can't free anyone else if we don't start by freeing ourselves, first of all from hurting others on purpose, and secondly from defending our own mistakes and in-authentic priorities. I know (from experience) that's a TALL order, but at least beginning by recognizing this task will help ALL of us.

[FarLeftFist]

7. I do the the exact same thing.

And I love your descriptions of it because that is exactly how it feels. I swear I would have 5x the posts on here if I wasn't dividing my time entering the lion's den of various RW websites and "eviscerating" their claims. One thing I've ALWAYS noticed is the more I hurl facts and truths their way the more they move further into the looney bin and expose their true colors, followed of course by personal attacks and diversion techniques, then when they are truly at their breaking point one of their "friends" will do a thread hijack. Their are some truly deranged people out there.

[mreilly]

8. That's the thing I truly find amazing...

... I've never posted a fact that I didn't verify as truth. I've never lied and misrepresented something just to make headway in an argument. These people will do that. As I said, they will lie. They'll lie again and again, as meanwhile they howl about lying liberals who "wouldn't know a fact if it bit them on the ass." So many times I have played "rope a dope," whereby I've lured right-wingers into claiming they'll accept such-and-such event as fact if I can substantiate it. Then I do so, and they immediately start bellowing and changing the goal posts (insisting that the source of the fact is really invalid is a favorite of theirs). This happened in a discussion involving the lies of a right-wing radio talk show host in Boston (Jay Severin) - who was recently and mercifully fired. Severin claimed to have a Pulitzer prize which never existed; the right-winger insisted that the report he'd lied was just a big hoax to smear Severin (by the mean liberal media of course). In short, Severin was proven by yours truly to have lied, but the loyal fan in question just ran from that and began yelling that it wasn't true; the fact hadn't been proven; it was all a big meanie plot. Not one single time - NOT ONE - in over 15 years that I've engaged these shitbags has any of them EVER said: "You're right. I was wrong. I'm sorry." Nope, it's just been one squealing bout of shitslinging after another (as I said previously, I don't do it to convince these pieces of crap of anything other than I am one liberal who will hand them their own asses and make them like the taste).

How do these types live with themselves, knowing they've lied and will continue to lie at every turn? Somehow they still think they're right; still think they're the "good guys." Or maybe they don't. Maybe they just don't give a crap, period, and think that any means justify the ends. Hard to say, since what I've seen of these fuckers post-debate has usually been their backsides as they scurry frantically away, to rest up and then start repeating the exact same shit 12 or 24 hours later.

[FarLeftFist]

15. Yeah, the hardest thing....

About dealing with them is the fact that they DON'T live in a fact based universe, to them anything goes. i.e. They will call Obama a wimp, then in their next post rant about him being a thug. Which is it, Thug or Wimp?!! You can provide them with numerous in-depth analysis from experts with provided links and references and they will denounce them as being biased Liberals, I've even provided them with links to Stockman, Reagan's budget director and they've denounced him as being a Liberal. All the while the only thing I'm using for my arguments are facts. It must be strange to live in such an ignorant mindset as they do. I swear we on the Left have taken an evolutionary step and these people are stuck on stupid.

[patrice]

11. It's kind of a high, isn't it. I wake up thinking about how to say things to them.

[FarLeftFist]

17. I don't really dwell on it...

Like the OP said, after a while you develop an arsenal of info that easily strikes them down, they complain about the same shit all the time so its pretty easy, especially being they're so ignorant.

[Doremus]

9. Not just you, but all of us including myself, need to start focusing on what we have in common

If we can start defusing some of the knee-jerk hatefulness that the plutocrats have carefully engendered among us, we might stand a collective chance.

Falling into their trap time and time again says as much about us as it does about stupid repukes, imo.

[mreilly]

13. I understand and agree...

... there are some moderates who can be reached or talked to. We need to have a dialogue with these folks. When I refer to the debates with right-wingers I refer to the lost causes; the ones who will still scream to their dying day that liberals hate this country/Obama loves Bin Laden/their taxes are skyrocketing even when all the facts disprove them. The ones who, if Obama came to their door with a pony and a handful of lollipops would start ranting and raving about him "neglecting his duties in Washington." The ones who will, after the end of Obama's Presidency, insist their lives were so horrible and ruined even if they saw their taxes go down, their savings increase, their 401K surge and all of their domestic concerns met. You know the kind...

[patrice]

16. The key is, as mreilly says, to be polite. That's kind of hard for me sometimes, because I

have to choose not to use a loaded, but very relevant word, that I may favor and go for a word choice that is less provocative, less powerful, instead.

[AC_Mem]

12. Rightous Rant!

I read every word of your post nodding my head, thinging - go get em!

Keep up the great work, its like chopping down one tree at a time.

Annette

[masmdu]

19. I've gone to the mattress against 1 person 3 times in the last 2 days...& 1 time in the Kitchen...

my wife.

[mnhtnbb]

21. My RW SIL ran away from a debunking of her full of lies e-mail

one time by literally saying she didn't care about the facts--she didn't want a history lesson--
she just agreed with the opinion that was offered in the full of lies e-mail.

You really can't argue with them. They have no intention of changing their minds and in fact,
a recent study showed that these RW folks just dig in their heels when confronted with 'facts'.
Why? It's cognitive dissonance. It would be just too damned uncomfortable to change their opinions
so they discount the facts and ignore the truth.

[mreilly]

25. I hear you...

... I was once told by someone that "if I was on your side, then I would probably believe the proof you have to offer." In other words, this person formulated their opinions first then screened out anything that ran contrary to that, and therefore no proof could ever be valid since it came from someone "on the other side."

[Left coast liberal]

24. Well, thank god, you have the energy to fight with the wing nuts...

...I just can't. They are so passionate about being wrong and it just devolves from there.

Good for you! Keep up the good work, patriot!

:-)