Michael Moore: ‘We’ve lost something of our soul’ in bin Laden ‘execution’

[Playinghardball]

Source: RawReplay
By David Edwards

Liberal filmmaker Michael Moore told CNN’s Piers Morgan Thursday that there was no reason to celebrate the killing of Osama bin Laden.

“We’ve lost something of our soul here in this country,” Moore said. “Something that separates us from other parts, other countries where we say everybody has their day in court no matter how bad of a person, no matter what piece of scum they are, they have a right to a trial…after World War II, we just didn’t go in and put a bullet to the head of all the top Nazis. We put them on trial.”

Watch this video from CNN’s Piers Morgan, broadcast May 6, 2011.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/michael-moore-weve-lost-something-of-our-soul-in-bin-laden-execution/

[DrDan]

1. seems to be consistent with our gun mentality

shoot first . . . the legal system is secondary

[spin]

122. You are dealing with a military operation approved by a Democratic president ...

in a very hazardous situation inside a foreign nation which did not approve the action. Obama never has been accused of having a "gun mentality".

Many of the details of the operation are highly classified and we probably will never know all the facts and the considerations that led to Osama bin Laden being shot and killed.

It's entirely reasonable but perhaps foolish to question the decision of the soldier to shoot rather than to capture. In order to form an honest criticism we need to know far more information and because many details are classified, we probably never will.

I suspect that you are opposed to the civilian gun culture in the United States but the military and police agencies operate under different laws than civilians. Even in countries where civilians find it extremely difficult to own firearms there are military organizations which effectively use firearms to kill in combat. Sine there is no "gun mentality" in such nations the fact that our nation has one is irrelevant to the actions that a trained team of SEALs used in the operation in Pakistan. The British special forces, the SAS or SBS, might well have used the same tactics and shot rather than captured Osama if they would have been in the same situation.

[virgogal]

2. And,of course,he's right. It was a disgrace IMHO.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. Does Moore think we wouldn't have assassinated Hitler if we had the chance?

[treestar]

65. Guess he thinks we shouldn't have

Given the chance.

What a moron Moore has proved himself to be.

[Marr]

67. It's funny how critics suddenly get so damn stupid when your guy is in the White House.

[Drunken Irishman]

69. Moore has always been hit or miss for me...

Regardless of who's serving in the WH.

His point is ridiculous. In WWII, we bombed two cities to force a surrender, killing how many innocents? Do we not remember firebombing Dresden?

And do you believe FDR wouldn't have assassinated Hitler if he had a chance?

[Marr]

72. Apparently not.

Judging from the lineup in Nuremberg, I have to think Hitler would've had a spot on the docket. But I'm not here to argue Michael Moore's point. Bin Laden wasn't Hitler and this isn't WW2, either.

[Drunken Irishman]

73. Then why does Moore feel the need to compare the two?

C'mon, this is ridiculous. Of course if troops had Hitler in their cross-hairs, they would've pulled the trigger. Especially if it happened DURING the war.

[Marr]

80. I don't know why. I don't agree with him, to be honest.

I mean, I see his idealistic point, but it's almost like describing one of those elements that only exist for a moment in a laboratory before breaking down. I mean-- it's not something you can reasonably expect to happen in the real world.

It seems to me that, even if public opinion weren't wildly in favor of just killing bin Laden, it still seems like the sensible thing to do. Killing bin Laden made political sense, while capturing him would present a series of political complications. The administration had a lot of latitude in how they could choose to deal with it, and no one is going to be in a position to second guess it, legally speaking.

So while I don't think it's something I could be proud of from an idealistic point of view, I do think it was the sensible thing to do. That's why I've found it difficult to join in the carnival atmosphere that popped up afterwards.

[treestar]

82. Exactly!

What kind of moron finds THIS a loss to our integrity after we bombed Japan with nuclear bombs, knowing it involved killing civilians, including children. But it's so much worse to take out OBL? Ridiculous.

Moore was only "criticizing" Bush because that's all he ever does, not because he thought Bush was any more wrong than anyone else.

[sabrina 1]

91. You missed his whole point, but in the current atmosphere of

of warmongering and fearmongering which apparently is now confined only to the US, since most of the rest of the world doesn't care much about 'terra', it's no surprise that you did.

MM is absolutely correct. Allowing a small band of extremists to destroy the very foundations of this country, to let the world see that this insane religious fanatic and his ever-shrinking band of followers has succeeded in striking so much fear into the heart of America that we are frightened to hold a trial, is like looking at the death of a nation.

If we are not about the rule of law, that which makes US different from Bin Laden whose solution is to 'kill', then we are no better than the man we claim to despise.

The trial, as MM said, would have been for US far more than for Bin Laden. And had we done so, his mission would have failed. Instead, he may be dead, but he won. He 'took away our freedoms' as the inane Bush assured us was what he wanted most of all. Then, why have we given him that?

[treestar]

95. I'm having a hard time with sympathy for OBL

He didn't take away our freedoms. Bush may have tried as best he could. Bush failed.

OBL being dead does not take away our freedoms.

There is a war going on - the rule of law fails in a war. You can't expect opposing forces to refrain from "murdering" you in a war.

Why not try all of our soldiers for every death they caused then? Many of the Iraqis who died were innocent.

We can't ignore the realities. We don't like wars, but if we are in one, we can't act like we are in the midst of civilization.

[sabrina 1]

100. It isn't about OBL. Who cares about him? Most people had

already forgotten him. He had no influence in the Arab World as the uprisings there have revealed, proving as many of us always suspected, that OBL was never a big hero with hoardes of followers anywhere. Most young Arabs want a decent life, they are not looking to blow themselves up for some old guy who is clearly a bit insane. He probably never had any more influence there than people like Timothy McVeigh did here.

Like McVeigh, he is accused of a major crime. We are told to shake in our shoes and not to even think of applying our justice system to this crime, just 'kill him'. We can't have a trial, {{{{{shudder}}}}}. We might upset some extremists somwhere. Who cares if they are upset? Do we run our country now based on a small group of insane people's opinions?

For HIM killing him was a good thing, but for this country, it was not. We never get any answers, no investigation of 9/11, no open trials of those accused of that crime. We are told we can't, because it would all be too traumatic and/or dangerous for us.

Sorry, but that is not the kind of country I want to live in. We CAN conduct trials of well-known terrorists, Clinton did it with the Blind Sheid, Rahman in NYC.

So, what happened to this country if OBL did not win what Bush said was what he wanted most? Why the fear, the decision that now we should BECOME OBL and rather than utilize our justicial system just throw it all away and shoot suspects, like any other third world country?

Very sad, even more so because so many Americans now think this is justice.

[treestar]

119. Questions of jurisdiction are perplexing

Are you saying wars do not exist and that we have to try every person?

Who has jurisdiction? Pakistan?

Was OBL going to try us, even Bush, for what he claimed were our crimes against him?

Sometimes you just have to step into reality.

WE bombed Hiroshima too. WE fought the Russians at every point we could. WE made lots of nuclear weapons. WE are in the real world. Our country has the best legal system. But so far we haven't imposed it on the rest of the planet.

[Hissyspit]

116. It's not about OBL, it's about us.

[treestar]

120. A slogan.

In a perfect world, everyone uses our legal system.

In a war, no legal system is operating.

[Hissyspit]

121. No, it's not a slogan.

And the rest of what you said:

PFFT

"War on Terror" is a slogan.

[niyad]

130. "the rule of law fails in war"--really?? since when???

[treestar]

81. I don't see the logic to this snark

Since it hardly matters. If it is wrong to agree with Obama all the time, then it is equally wrong to agree with Moore all the time.

Your post also suffers from them misconception that finding fault is always right, good and correct. There is no objectivity to that.

When they dissed Bush they made sense, but we did not realize that they planned to diss EVERYONE.

[Hissyspit]

112. A trial for Hitler would have been bad?

How?

And you're putting words in his mouth. And it's not an exact analogous case.

He's not a moron. Ridiculous.

[rug]

98. Oh, OBLwas Hitler now.

[Drunken Irishman]

118. Moore made the WWII & Nazi reference...

[readmoreoften]

103. Hitler analogy. Reaching.

[Drunken Irishman]

117. As is comparing this situation to WWII...

As Moore did. Apples and oranges.

[The Magistrate]

4. He Knows History Too Well,Sir, to Really Believe This

We were fresh out of cherries before the eighteenth century ended....

[Drunken Irishman]

18. Let's not forget, you know, dropping two atomic bombs to force a surrender.

This is small potatoes compared to much of WWII's action (Dresden, anyone?)...

[BeyondGeography]

5. Dumb

We lost something of our soul a long time ago.

Not to mention, Osama as Prisoner Awaiting Trial is a most impractical idea.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

6. See, I don't buy that at all...

...Michael Moore made a shitload of money from a film that fanned the flames of emotion surrounding 9/11, so fuck him and the high moral horse he rode in on.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. I love Michael, but I really was more 'ashamed' of the hanging of Saddam than of this.

Saddam was so set-up by the USA and his execution was poorly carried out. And yes, I know that Iraqis did the actual deed.

[90-percent]

16. Saddam

Saddam was the PR winner for his hanging. He was the only one there that displayed dignity and honor. His executioners (and their USA sponsors) come off like thugs in comparison.

My rationalization is that Osama would have been caught alive ONLY if he put up his hands and surrendered immediately. Once he made moves to escape or defend himself, that was the same moment they shot to kill.

At least we're tacking back to principals and the rule of law a little more. Our President was so dignified and respectful when he visited NYC. Dude is a leader, isn't he?

-90% jimmy

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solomon]

47. I agree with the other poster. For as bad as he was, he died

like a man. Just because he was a terrible guy does't change that. People wanted to see him plead and beg and cry but he didn't. He told his executioners who were taunting him to shut up and get on with it.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marr]

70. You sure you want to use torture as proof of an evil nature?

How do you feel about waterboarding...?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

128. I wouldn't mention torture as an example of evil if I were you.

Every time the US tries that these days, we get reminders from all over the world of own torturers, (China being the latest to give us a history of our torture policies when we tried to criticize THEM for human rights violations) still roaming free and even teaching college courses on LAW. What kind of country allows their torturers to teach their young people 'law'?

[Marr]

68. Apparently the order was to kill bin Laden.

I've read nothing about an option to bring him in alive if he surrendered.

I understand Moore's point, but I don't think the idealism he describes has ever motivated our government. Or any other, for that matter. A dead bin Laden was a political winner, while a living bin Laden would present a lot of political complications. Law and idealism never trumps political expediency.

[cali]

8. although I didn't celebrate his death- or mourn it- I don't feel like I've lost any

part of my soul.

[OHdem10]

9. I say again, MM gives Fox Fodder to run stories .

Liberals weak on Defense.

[wellst0nev0ter]

84. And Once Again, Who Gives A Shit About Fox?

Dance, monkeys, dance :eyes:

[Cali_Democrat]

10. America celebrates summary execution and the subsequent dumping of a body in the ocean

It's not uprising. We are a violent nation. It's in our nature. Just look at the amount of gun deaths in the USA each year compared to other industrialized countries. Look at our war machine. We are an extremely violent country.

[kenny blankenship]

40. No, a real celebration would have seen OBL's dead body strapped onto the nose of a rocket

and fired into the night sky over NY Harbor.



(drumroll over PA speakers) Aaaaaaaannnd there he goes Ladies and Gentlemen! Gooood bless America,
(strike up the band)
Land that I love
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.

GOD BLESS AMERICA MY HOME SWEET HOME!


Now see, that is a barbarous jubilation.

[NYC Liberal]

11. I will happily celebrate his demise,

just as I would have celebrated Hitler's.

[kstewart33]

15. You bet. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. As usual, he's right

Let the hand wringing commence.

[dana_b]

25. agree

and all of the folks here calling him "dumb" or telling him to go do something "productive" need to look in the mirror.

[Maru Kitteh]

124. In this matter, he is behaving as one who is pretty freakin' dumb.

Honestly, I think he started well with the best intentions. but I believe it's possible he's been touched by the greed he's denounced.

[ZombieHorde]

99. We nuked two cities during WWII. When was their trial?

What about our WWII race camps? When was their trial?

Do you really think killing all of those innocent people in Japan without a trial was better than killing Bin Laden without a trial?

Bin Laden deserves a trial over infants?

Seems ultra-silly to me.

[EFerrari]

13. It's a stark contrast with the Latin American countries

that are today conducting trials of truly vile, evil men who were torturers, terrrorists and murderers of thousands and thousands of people.

[kstewart33]

14. Yes, we should have taken him prisoner, read him his rights...

and given him a chance to live.

Just like he did the some 3,000 Americans he slaughtered.

Sorry guys, on this one, I'm happy the bastard got his 2 bullets.

[Arctic Dave]

22. What about all the innocents killed by the US war machine?

Who are we going to give those two bullets to?

[kstewart33]

33. I don't see the connection. nt

[Arctic Dave]

79. Change the elevation and geography of your melon.

You may hear a pop and things will become clearer. ;)

[undeterred]

32. We should have let the "seal" dogs attack him

for 5-10 minutes before they shot him.

And he could have answered any questions during that period.

[graywarrior]

17. I love Michael, but last night I turned that interview off.

He seems to think he must defend his lefty, left side despite rationality.

[inademv]

19. Moore is just surprised now that the veil covering the jingoism tore a little.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between."

Oscar Wilde

Though I'm not sure that the reverse isn't true.

[EFerrari]

We're too broke to be decadent.

lol

[gauguin57]

39. That is the line of the day for me. Too broke to be decadent.

LOL!

[coalition_unwilling]

132. I think we're back to barbarism now. We oscillate between

barbarism and decadence and sometimes, in the best Quantum Mechanics fashion, we occupy both poles simultaneously :)

Although, in fairness to Wilde, Quantum Mechanics came after his death.

[Lars39]

21. We lost it before bin Laden's death...when Bushco figured out how

to skirt the Geneva Conventions.

[mochajava666]

27. True. +1

[Moondog]

23. Moore is beginning to display the same sort of sanctimonious condescension

that, for me, characterizes the behavior of religious fundies.

And I would like for him to put a sock in it, and STFU before he further discredits and embarrasses himself.

[LanternWaste]

29. Sucks when people have different opinions than our own.

Sucks when people have different opinions than our own. :shrug:

[QC]

42. He needs to go back to Russia. n/t

[SnakeEyes]

43. I'm starting to see him the same way

I, sadly, now see Cindy Sheehan.

[Raine]

83. Totally agree. nt

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

36. Are you kidding?

Moore has done a lot in education, from serving on a school board to funding a theater to writing cheks.

But I see his efforts to promote literacy haven't solved the whole problem yet.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Maybe he can help you learn to spell

[foxtrot]

26. The difference Mr Moore-on is that Nazi Germany had been defeated

they had surrendered and their leader had already put a bullet through his own skull.

Not the case at all with al-Qaida, the conflict continues un-abated.

[undeterred]

28. We lost our soul when the SC appointed Bush.

Until we undo all his illegal unconstitutional policies we aren't getting it back.

[bobbolink]

44. I think it was 50% lost before that, but it certainly kicked the loss much higher.

:(

[jp11]

31. He's right there seems to be good chunk of people who don't care

about decency, the rule of law, etc. Just git-r-done.

There are times you encounter someone who is just a better person than you are, they may be more generous, kind, thoughtful, etc and the 'smart' thing to do is try to take some lesson from them to improve yourself not trash them for being all uppity and 'clinging to the moral highground'. That is how I try to look on people that show me the numerous flaws I have as a person. I don't always take the lesson to heart but I try to recognize it, even if it is just another time I see how I am 'wrong'.

[bluedigger]

34. We lost our "innocence" hundreds of years ago.

I'm surprised Michael is buying this particular myth of American "exceptualism".

[SnakeEyes]

41. Close... but it's "exceptionalism"

[bluedigger]

126. Bwahaha!

I knew there was something wrong with it when I posted, but spellcheck was not my friend!:rofl:

[Solomon]

56. Finally, someone else said it so I don't have to bother.

He acts like we had a soul to lose. I guess the stories of all the other people here and there who have been shitted on by us never registered with people, but somehow, this one does.

People kill me when they say as my friend said to me the other night, "this is America"...

No it's not. "America" in the sense that she was using it, is an idea, a goal to be reached. We're still trying to reach it, but don't act like we were pristine and have fallen somehow. Like we were born perfect like Adam and Eve, and then fell from Heaven. Taking out one man like that is infinitely superior to spending trillinos bombing the hell out of an entire country killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process.

This same person (my friend) who is so saddened by the fact that we killed Bin Laden, did nothing but cheerlead when we were bombing the hell out of Iraq and Bush was shredding the constitution. But only now, it's "this is not America."

[krabigirl]

74. We never had it to begin with. Nt

[fivepennies]

109. + 10000

What we don't know about our history would fill a .... well, a book wouldn't do it.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

35. Bull, Michael, if we captured him and brought him here ...

... then we'd have people wringing their hands because we didn't follow legal procedure. We didn't have the Pakistanis detain him so that we could petition for extradition. That would have been more legal. Pointless and unsuccessful, but legal.

I seem to remember that a couple of days ago, MM said that this was ok, just that it doesn't really change anything. If so, that was a good thing to say, and a good time to say nothing more.

:hi:

[kenny blankenship]

63. There's that

And it is virtually certain if we had him alive that many more people would be killed by Al Qaeda or sympathizers as hostages taken to gain OBL's release.

A trial in civilian courts would take FOREVER. There's all that time for Al Qaeda to act and blame us for everyone who dies. "You could have prevented their deaths!!" The handwringers would be BESIDE themselves with anguish. A trial in military court would never satisfy them (Tainted! Torture! Tainted! Military justice is an oxymoron!), and it would still take half as long as forever.

Now all this time, Republican politicians would be joining our own weepy handwringers in second guessing every decision Obama made in how to deal with OBL. They already do. So every time somebody somewhere was killed by Al Qaeda in retaliation or as a hostage, the Pukes would be bellowing:
"We had ObamOsama DEAD TO RIGHTS. We could have avoided all this additional carnage and all the ongoing threat, now looming over the heads of every American, by simply killing bin Laden in the field like the soldier he wanted and claimed to be. All of this mess is Obama's fault, because his pinko base doesn't want Osama bin Laden harmed in any way, and because he has some dubious sympathies of his own (hint hint) because of his parentage, and his upbringing in madrassas where they teach Islamic Law...etc."

Really, I wonder if any of the handwringers have tried to put themselves in Obama's place for an hour, and thought through what would happen if he constrained our response to treating OBL like a common criminal. In the first place, objectively speaking, we have already decided as a nation that OBL is NOT a common criminal: we started a war over the Al Qaeda attacks of 9-11-2001. That is not a response to a common crime. Osama bin Laden is, if not the lead conspirator in that attack, then a top and symbolically central conspirator. Many enemies allied with him and of far lesser importance than him have been killed in the field for that attack. They didn't get trials and nobody wept over that. Nobody in the world faulted us in 2001-2002 for going to war: we had the consent of the civilized world and indeed the assistance of many allies in that action. I opposed that war on the grounds that it was likely to lead to gross stupidity, like the long term occupation of Afghanistan, which has cost perhaps upwards of a trillion dollars. But you can't argue that world opinion did not sanction the US "war response" of 9-11. It's also undeniable that the war has not yet been concluded -we're still there for the same reason. You cannot possibly maintain with a straight face that Osama bin Laden wasn't a legitimate target in that war then (he WAS the target as far as most people were concerned) And so you can't argue it now. I recall a great many "handwringers" vociferously finding fault with George W. Bush over the years since then for NOT killing OBL in Tora Bora. Now they're pissed that Obama has chased him down and had him shot. Incredible; but it is what it is, and they are what they are. In the second place, since OBL is not just a pirate, or car thief, or serial killer, there are huge risks involved with holding him alive in custody. He has followers who will make us pay a price in blood to hold him. Also, political opportunists will very predictably try to "hang" the President for incurring that cost, and they might just succeed. In a Democratic President's councils, any negative consequences of an action have to be weighed with a view to how much more auxiliary damage the Republicans could inflict with it. In this case, if payback from Al Qaeda took the form of a large scale attack against a US city, the auxiliary damage from Republican Al Qaeda sympathizers could be essentially unlimited. In the face of so many unknowns, and the known propensity of Republicans to cry TRAITOR!, a Democratic President might understandably choose to do nothing rather than take OBL alive and risk the consequences.

Furthermore, when I read the names of the handwringers here, I see many many names of folks who, just like me, wish we were already out of Afghanistan altogether. They should take responsibility for the consequences of their positions! If the US doesn't have a vast military presence in Afghanistan like it maintained from Bush to Obama, a "Capture OBL Alive" mission is rendered just as impossible as a "kill OBL by shooting him in the face" mission. It just wouldn't be attempted since the practical hurdles of getting a small team to Abbottobad with support in the air and safe refuge nearby aren't surmountable without occupied Afghanistan close by. If a President came into knowledge of OBL's likely whereabouts without the staging capacity of our vast military encampments in Afghanistan, he would have to either just let it go, or he'd have to resort to bombing OBL's compound in a massive strike - B2s, JDAMS, penetrator bombs in case there is some underground bunker, overkill all around. The collateral damage would be enormous. There would be no survivors in the house. You'd have to make the bomb drop big enough to kill everyone, guaranteed, since you don't know where OBL will be inside the premises. So we would have blown entire families, women and children included, to bloody rags. And there would be no confirmation that Osama bin Laden was in fact at the location and killed in the raid. Pakistan would be bringing charges against us in world court -or loudly saying they would. Probably the only reason they aren't doing so right now is that everyone in the world credits the Obama administration when it claims it got bin Laden. The political price for any US President -especially a Democratic President, who in the best of times has to deal with barely disguised Fascists who hate him more than they hated Osama bin Laden- would be extremely daunting and damaging. It would be much, much easier to talk yourself out of going ahead with that version of the mission, guessing the probable consequences, than to talk yourself into doing it.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

76. Hopefully, this incident gives us an opportunity

to draw down our troops in the region. As you say, we no longer have to maintain bases from which to search for OBL. Obama could declare "mission accomplished" and start to pull out. But, there's the oil ...

I guess I agree with MM that it was "less-than-kosher" to kill Osama, if he was going to surrender. But as you point out, the consequences of a live Osama inflaming the radicals is far worse, far more costly, far more deadly. So BHO made a good choice.

[Taverner]

37. I usually agree with Michael Moore, but not on this issue

When police go looking for a murderer who is known to be armed and dangerous, they might take him out with a sniper. Same difference.

[EFerrari]

46. But they usually don't send in trained assassins

and they don't shoot unarmed men after capture. Not exactly the same, no.

[Taverner]

48. You must have never dealt with the US Marshals before

Yes, and yes. When they go after a fugitive - often one who does not want to go back to life in prison and has nothing to lose, they'll take them down before risking their lives

And what do you think Policemen are? Trained pacifists?

When you shoot at the range, they aim for the chest or the head - not the kneecaps

[EFerrari]

51. I worked with US Marshalls every day for most of a decade. n/t

[Taverner]

57. At the courthouse or in the field?

ON EDIT: Reason I ask is that the US Marshals who guard Federal Courthouses are different than the ones who look for fugitives

My dad was a US Marshal after retiring from the Police Department. It's a good gig for a retired cop.

Searching for fugitives, however, is not a good gig for retired cops.

[EFerrari]

60. I hear that. Both, actually.

I was one of the two main Spanish interpreters in the city & county of San Francisco. That's how I wound up at City Hall the day that @sshole shot the mayor and Harvey Milk.

[Taverner]

61. Next time ask what they would do if they had a clear shot at a fugitive

And, they think, but are not positive, that the fugitive is armed. And the same fugitive killed upwards of 4000 people. Some with their own bare hands.

[EFerrari]

62. For me this isn't about second guessing the SEAL team.

They were given a mission and they did their job.

More and more, it looks like that mission was to kill bin Laden. I don't believe that the administration ever wanted to capture him. It doesn't fit with anything they've done.

Maybe a real "capture or kill" mission is too much to ask. But I think it's important that we do ask. Too much of our justice system is in the crapper because of 9/11, imo.

[Cerridwen]

45. Perhaps Michael could focus on the fact that

President Obama succeeded where bush failed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1052015

I seem to remember MM like to take pot-shots at the repubs and the r/w; this is a grand opportunity for him to do so. Of course, he'll have to stop accepting their premise first.

[abelenkpe]

49. Not sorry Bin Laden is dead

I didn't celebrate it, tho. And I am uncomfortable with the war on terror in general particularly because of drone attacks on suspects where we locate a suspect and kill them from thousands of miles away in a different country. And because of places like Guantanamo and the idea of extraordinary rendition. I think it goes against what the nation traditionally stood for. Ideally we should be able to arrest a suspect, give them a trial, and then sentence them accordingly. But that is impossible without support from the countries terrorists are doing business in. So in this case...

To hell with Bin Laden. We never would have walked down this morally sketchy path if it wasn't for him.

[Swede]

50. I disagree with Mike on this one.

But,that's ok.

[guitar man]

52. My soul is just fine

And I don't need a sanctimonious sermon from Michael Moore to convince me otherwise. I've enjoyed an lot of his work but have to disagree with him on this one.

[truebrit71]

53. Sorry Michael but you're wrong on this one mate...Gitmo/Abu Ghraib/Iraqistan is where we lost...

...something of our soul...

The prosecution of wars based on lies and the utter disregard for human rights that entailed and encouraged in Abu Ghraib and Bagram and Gitmo was where we "lost our soul"...

Not investigating how 19 basically unarmed men could bring a superpower to it's knees is when we "lost our soul"...

Not prosecuting the criminals that nearly destroyed our country's economy and then making US pick up the tab is when we "lost our soul"...


Trial or no trial OBL was a dead man, Sunday's activities simply shortened the process...

[Ikonoklast]

54. The top Nazis all surrendered, were captured, or killed themselves.

OBL was also given the opportunity to surrender and face justice, and he refused.

He remained an enemy combatant still willing to make war against this country.

He got exactly what he deserved.

Michael Moore seems to think that his opinion is the only one liberals in this country should have.

Once again, he is wrong.

[Zorra]

58. Dear Mike: I didn't want to be taken alive. I didn't want to stand trial,

only to be humiliated, degraded, defiled and probably tortured before I was executed.

So I resisted a bit so that I would be killed rather than face trial.

I'm so glad that this is causing a moral problem for you.

I won once again by choosing how to die.

Thank you for your concern,
:evilfrown:
OBL

[Javaman]

64. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Moore, but we lost our soul a long time ago.

I'm thinking back to we being the only country to use the atomic bomb, but no, way before that. Like not honoring a single treaty with the Native-Americans then slaughtering them for them honoring the treaties.

We are a mess and gloss over our history with quasi-patriotism so we can sleep better at night.

the killing of OBL is just one of a long list of murders that have been committed in the name of "democracy" and the US Constitution.

[Uzybone]

88. You and others in this thread have made this point

Did Moore not read the history books. Do all these idiots on cable news just say something to rile people up? I think liberals would at least try and adhere to the facts. The US has been at the forefront of "soul-less" actions since the day we became a country.

[Javaman]

123. Not sure if you are agreeing with me.

:shrug:

[treestar]

66. Is there any nation in history that would not have killed someone

who operated as OBL did? Suppose some other country had happened to do it? We'd be ungrateful enough to say they had no soul?

[Lyric]

75. I'm trying hard to summon up some outrage, but I just can't do it.

We did what we believed was the right thing, because we wanted to eliminate an evil man and throw his murderous little "club" into disarray. The world is not black and white. Even if obeying the law is the right course 99.9% of the time, there will always be that 00.1% exception to the rule. I'm no big fan of Obama, but I support him and our soldiers in this. The man was probably the most dangerous human being alive. His ability to inspire others to murder innocent people was unmatched, and would have been even MORE effective if he were alive and in prison, because "freeing Osama" would have been the ultimate rallying cry for terrorist recruiters worldwide.

You'll see no hand-wringing from me over this. Good fucking riddance.

[EFerrari]

108. And God knows, our system of justice would just collapse

if a few terrorists had a rallying cry.

Oh, wait. It has. Too late.

[Canuckistanian]

77. K&R

Not that it'll do much around here. DUers seem to have acquired a taste for blood.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

78. mike is hard to please.

[Shiver]

85. Well, it's good that there's no such thing as a soul, then.

:hide:

[Ramulux]

86. Its not about either killing him or taking him to trial

the question is whether or not America has any right to be conducting covert military operations in a country that does not want us there. I simply dont understand why America had anything to do with this, other than being some fucked up vengeance plot.

All I know is that the people of Pakistan dont want the American military operating in their country and I think its fucked up that we think we can ignore the will of the Pakistani people and go in and kill criminals we dont like in their country just because.

The people who are applauding Bin Ladin's death are in essence supporting our current foreign policy and the idea that America has the right to police the world and take our military into any country who harbors people we dont like regardless of what the people of that country actually want.

[TNLib]

90. I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani government was not aware on some level what was going

on

[Ramulux]

93. Thats not what I'm saying

The Pakistani government was heavily involved in the operation and fully supports us having our military there. I'm talking about the people of Pakistan who absolutely want America and our military completely out of their country.

The Pakistani government is incredibly corrupt and doesn't give a shit about what their people want. Saying that its OK to be in Pakistan because their government says its OK, is the same as saying its OK to be in Afghanistan because Karzai has no problem with us being there.

[underpants]

87. Finally something I disagree with Moore about

sorry Michael he was a military target and was dealt with as such

[TNLib]

89. He's morally right however I'm glad Bin Laden was killed

and I think the president did the right thing.
Killing him and burying him at Sea was the smartest moves by this President. He chopped off the head of the snake and in time I believe the body will die and the healing can begin for the Westerners and Muslims alike.

If we did the right thing and brought him to trial, and gave him a life sentence then he could be memorialized and Hailed by his followers and continue to recruit. The only other better scenario is if he became rehabilitated while in prison and tried to dissuade extremist from violence. But I just can't see that happening given the man's character

[MadHound]

92. Yep, one has but to look at the postings of the past five days around here,

The bloodlust, chestbeating, beration of those who don't fall in line with the two minute hate. All of this and more simply supports Moore's contention.

[Honeycombe8]

94. He's wrong. No more than we lost our soul with Dillinger was shot as public enemy #1. nt

[cottonseed]

96. Sleep tight sweet Michael in knowing your still so much better then them all.

God it must be tough being such a decent human being. How Ghandi and Michael Moore can do it I will never know.

[ZombieHorde]

97. We nuked two cities in WWII.

Babies, kittens, doctors, nurses, schools full of children, etc., all destroyed. When was their trail?

We also rounded up people and locked them into race camps. When was their trial?

But we lost our soul when we shot Bin Laden without a trial?

I love Moore, but what is he thinking?

[Canuckistanian]

101. Wow, I'm surprised this managed even 7 recs

I swear, I don't know DU these days. The bloodlust is disgusting.

[ProSense]

102. Yeah,

it's amazing Michael Moore's self-righteous drivel "managed even 7 recs."

<...>

MOORE: I'm pleased that he will no longer be around to do any harm to anybody. The world is a better place without him. To be -- to celebrate someone's death, I think that's goes a step further than my own -- it's not the way I was raised. I was raised in an Irish Catholic home.

I believe in those principles that I was raised with. I hear a lot of people often say, what would Jesus do? I don't think Jesus would go down to Ground Zero like a lot of people did on that -- on Sunday night with champagne bottles and pop corks and have a party.

<...>

MOORE: No, no. They killed him. But what I'm saying is they didn't kill because there was some kind of firefight or something going on. They went there with the intention to kill him. That's an execution and -- or an assassination, whatever you want to call it.

And I think -- I think, look, like I said, I'm glad he's gone. But I just feel something has -- we've lost something of our soul here in this country. And maybe I'm just an old school American who believes in our American judicial system. Something that separates us from other parts, other countries where we say everybody has their day in court no matter how bad of a person, no matter what piece of scum they are, they have a right to a trial.

And this man was a mass murderer. He was responsible for the deaths, at least in this country, of nearly 3,000 people. And you know after World War II, we just didn't go in and put a bullet to the head of all the top Nazis. We put them on trial. We took them in Nuremberg and we put them on trial, and we said, no, this is important for the world to see these criminals and it's important for history to have a record of what they did.

<...>

Beyond nonsense!

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

106. OK, but

it's still drivel.

[Canuckistanian]

107. Leave me alone

[Hissyspit]

113. I'm not seeing it.

Seems reasonable enough to me.

[BOG PERSON]

104. n/m

non sequitur

[Warren DeMontague]

110. MM's last movie also centered on the fuzzy, incoherent axiom that "the opposite of capitalism

is democracy"

...sorry, I like the guy, and he can be insightful and witty as hell, but he's not infallible.

[Hissyspit]

111. You saw a different movie than I did.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. He had some good moments and points, but it wasn't nearly as well put together

as some of his other work. That wasn't just my opinion; a lot of people felt that way.

[Hissyspit]

115. It was more of a personal commentary/polemic, but that's not what I was addressing.

I was addressing the idea that it was "capitalism is the opposite of democracy."

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[somone]

127. I agree with Michael Moore

on everything except this one issue.

Bin Laden and his self-confessed mass murderers deserve nothing but instant death.

Now, let's get out of Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Libya.

[Monarda]

129. Some historic consequences of "targeted assassination"

http://www.massviolence.org/Massacres-during-the-Wars-of-Religion?cs=print

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre

[jrandom421]

131. Not a new question

It's been something debated about for millenia. The Romans probably summed up best.

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges."

or "In time of war, the law falls silent."