I will sign a Libertarian ballot petition, but I will not sign a Green Party ballot petition.

[LoZoccolo]

[tekisui]

1. Why?

[The Magistrate]

2. Libertarians Split The Right, Sir

Greens split the left. Hence, one is helpful, the other not.

[TheWraith]

5. Well said, sir.

Also the fact that America could only benefit from having the Libertarians replace the Republicans.

[WillyT]

6. Shit Magi... Many Democrats Split The Left...

:shrug:

:hi:

[The Magistrate]

7. True Enough, Sir

Therefore there is even less call to summon outside help to the task....

[AlabamaLibrul]

9. That, sir, is one take on it

Another would be that a Libertarian ballot petition more closely fits the views of someone who would support it, versus a Green ballot petition that one would not support.

Of course -- this is all speculation as long as one does not bother to elucidate in their posts why they would do something, or even why they feel the need to announce that they would or would not do something.

[LoZoccolo]

11. I do it to split the right-wing vote and not the left-wing vote.

[Luminous Animal]

39. No. You are forcing Dems to face 2 opponents from the right. The right looks stronger.

[LoZoccolo]

51. What effect does that have on the voters' decision?

[Luminous Animal]

75. It pulls the discussion to the right and the reporting to the right.

The Dem candidate looks to be in the minority.

[LoZoccolo]

76. Do the Republicans want to look like the minority when they support Green Party ballot petitions?

[Luminous Animal]

82. They would if that candidate would have Koch bother style resorces. Reps supporting Greens

hurts Greens.. who, in some municipalities, have sued to make them stop.

[LoZoccolo]

95. Are you speaking of the Green candidate having Koch brothers-style resources?

[tblue37]

104. Not how it works. The right is ideologically split, and the Libertarians

are not on the same page as the social conservatives who long for a Christian theocracy to institue the Chriatian version of Sharia law in the US.

If you have two candidates, one Libertarian and one a fundie darling, about half of the RWers will vote Libertarian, and the other half will vote for the Christofascist candidate.

[Rage for Order]

111. Are you forgetting the presidential election of 1992?

George HW Bush, Ross Perot, and Bill Clinton. I'll give you 3 guesses as to who won that election

:shrug:

[Le Taz Hot]

87. Correction: Greens split the DEMOCRATS,

not the left. How interesting that you should equate the two.

[LoZoccolo]

12. Please see post #11.

[Electric Monk]

3. I will have cereal for breakfast, but I won't have toast.

I will be shopping for groceries tomorrow, but I won't be buying clothes.

[LoZoccolo]

13. If Puck lives in this house, then Pedro will not live in this house.

[WillyT]

4. Thatsa Really Niiice...

:smoke:

[Gemini Cat]

8. I saw three bikes today.

Two were chained to a fence about two meters apart. The other was against a tree and not chained. I looked at the cat in the ally and the cat ignored me, so I went home.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I love lamp.

[Leopolds Ghost]

14. I will not eat Green Eggs and Ham.

I will not eat them, Sam I am.

[Leopolds Ghost]

18. I will not eat them in a Car.

I will not eat them at a Bar.

[postulater]

15. I was planning to sleep late yesterday but got up early today instead.

and that darn turkey laid another egg where it shouldn't have.

[Codeine]

16. I don't RBTexLa with you. nt

[blondeatlast]

103. Oh, my. Superb. nt

[bluestateguy]

17. Back in 2004 Bush supporters circulated Nader petitions

One example that comes to mind was in Virginia, the Bush people were circulating Nader petitions for the good ole boys to sign at monster truck rallies.

[PurityOfEssence]

19. Big surprise

No problem with unbridled selfishness, but trouble with circumspection.

Decency has it's problems.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Why do you think that that's how I think?

[former9thward]

20. I sign both.

We need more parties on the ballot in this country not less.

[Luminous Animal]

27. Like I asked Loco. What is a Libertarian ballot petition?

[cmd]

22. If I sign either I become a member of that party (Ohio)

I remain a Democrat.

[Luminous Animal]

23. What is a Libertarian ballot petition? You won't answer. You rarely do but the question deserves

an answer.

[LoZoccolo]

25. In Illinois, a party needs a certain number of signatures to get a line on the ballot.

[Luminous Animal]

28. So you willingly empower the right?

[LoZoccolo]

30. No.

[Luminous Animal]

31. Yes. When 2/3rds of the ballot promote the right wing view of the issues and the subsequent

reporting of those issues, the liberal side is marginalized. It comes down to one liberal vs 2 conservatives. The conservative view point looks stronger by sheer ballot prevalence.

[LoZoccolo]

41. I would love it if every election featured one liberal and two conservatives.

[Luminous Animal]

66. The person who has to fight two opponents usually loses.

[LoZoccolo]

72. Aren't I also causing the Republicans to fight two opponents?

[Luminous Animal]

77. No because the Reps and Libs are more ideologically aligned. They make the Dem look like the

outlander and voters will go for the comfort candidate.

[LoZoccolo]

98. Why hasn't this happened in my district?

[tblue37]

105. Nonsense. It is obvious that two candidates for one group will

split the votes of that group. Since the Republican voters have significant ideological differences with each other, two candidates of the sort that attract Republcian voters will split the Republican vote. It is simple math. Those who would support a Libertarian or a social conservative candidate are not going to support a Democratic candidate, so we wouldn't get their votes anyway, but a single Republican candidate would probably get both groups' votes. But if each group's ideological preferences are represented by a different candidate, then instead of getting both votes, the Republican candidate will get just one of the votes, while the other candidate will get the other vote. Meanwhile, the Dem gets all the Dem votes and wins.

But if a Dem candidate and a Green candidate split the votes of those who would vote against the Republican (even if those voters are not thrilled with the Dem candidate), then instead of both votes, the Dem candidate gets only one vote and the Green candidate gets only one vote.

[Luminous Animal]

33. Would you decline?

[LoZoccolo]

43. I suppose that would depend on what I had the opportunity to decline.

[Luminous Animal]

61. The petition. You could decline to sign the Libertarian petition. That would be a choice, as well.

[LoZoccolo]

62. I gladly sign the Libertarian petitions.

[Luminous Animal]

69. And you gladly support the right wing.;

[LoZoccolo]

71. Why did I vote for Democrats?

[TheKentuckian]

110. I reckon they have become ideologically acceptable to you.

and the TeaPubliKlans have become to unbecoming to associate with.

[tblue37]

106. self-delete.

Don't want to play any more.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

26. O RLY?

[white_wolf]

32. I never said I wouldn't vote for democrats.

So don't go putting words in my mouth, which is what I'm sure you reported me for. However, this country does need more parties.

[Luminous Animal]

34. It's a fine line, ain't it. No need to reply, my friend.

[LoZoccolo]

42. If you didn't say that, what did you say?

[white_wolf]

45. I said this:

If the Greens become a large enough party to pose a threat it would make the democrats realize they have been following the wrong path in their recent DLC years. Besides, you are the one who is directly supporting the rise of a far right party to power, not me.

[LoZoccolo]

48. When do you estimate that the Libertarians will take power?

[white_wolf]

50. Right now, it isn't likely since they aren't on the ballot.

However, once they have been established on the ballot for a few election cycles and start pouring advertising dollars into their campaigns, they could gain power.

[LoZoccolo]

53. How many election cycles would that need to be?

[white_wolf]

56. I'm not sure.

Not very many, 3 or 4. The libertarians have a lot of support among the wealthy in this country, who would greatly benefit from their policies. Look how much media attention the Pauls get. They are too dangerous to be allowed to gain even a small foothold, but you seem to be willing to allow that to happen.

[LoZoccolo]

57. The Libertarians have already been on the ballot mour than four times in Illinois.

[Luminous Animal]

58. Quicker when Democats, like you, support them and force Democratic candidates to fight two fronts.

[LoZoccolo]

60. They do not have to win separate elections against each party running.

[Luminous Animal]

73. They have to fight two nearly united fronts to win one election.

[LoZoccolo]

74. Do the Libertarians give the Republicans their votes if they lose?

[Luminous Animal]

83. Duh.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

35. You are 100% supporting the empowerment of a right wing party.

[white_wolf]

37. Indeed he is.

A very radical and dangerous right-wing sect at that.

[Luminous Animal]

38. He's advocating to empoer that Democrats fight on two fronts! Putting them in a very weak position.

[LoZoccolo]

44. What did the Libertarian Party get done by being on the ballot?

[Luminous Animal]

52. Elect two people, House and Senate, who get an extra-ordinary amount of air time.

I.e, a lot of unchallenged corporate media respect,

[LoZoccolo]

59. Neither my representative, nor my two senators are Libertarians.

[Luminous Animal]

79. But you enabled Libs to get on the ballot in your state in election after election after election

after election after election. You've hobbled your Dem reps. Not only do the have to mount a campaign against the Reps but they have to fight the Libs, as well.

Kudos to you for empowering the right!!!

[LoZoccolo]

99. Is a Democrat more likely to vote for the Libertarian Party, or vote for the Green Party?

[trackfan]

36. hoom n/t

[Luminous Animal]

40. Why are you allowed to support a right wing party? There is no doubt I'd be banned if I did the

opposite.

[LoZoccolo]

46. I do not support the Republicans, and I do not support the Libertarians.

[white_wolf]

47. You want the Libertarians on the ballot, I think that counts as support.

[LoZoccolo]

49. Even in Chicago, I was only allowed to vote for one candidate in most races.

[Luminous Animal]

54. Doesn't matter how you personally vote. What matters is that you are empowering

a third party.

[LoZoccolo]

55. Everybody else only gets one vote.

[Luminous Animal]

64. But only if the choice is on the ballot and you are advocating to add another right wing voice on

the ballot.

That is, you are advocating to empower the right wing.

[LoZoccolo]

68. Only the candidate's name goes on the ballot, not their platform.

[Pithlet]

84. More like weakening the other.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[white_wolf]

63. OP I'm still waiting for you to explain how you are not

directly supporting the rise of a far right party.

[LoZoccolo]

65. None of the Libertarian candidates that I helped put on the ballot won a seat.

[white_wolf]

67. Whether they won or not is irrelevant to the question at hand.

You just admitted that you directly supported the rise of a far right party and helped it get on the ballot. Yet, you report me for saying that I think more left wing candidates are a good thing.

[LoZoccolo]

70. I suppose I did help get it on the ballot.

[Luminous Animal]

78. Unbelievable! You admit to helping out the right wing and it stands! WTF!!!

[LoZoccolo]

93. I believe that I helped out a right-wing party, but possibly diminished the right wing in doing so.

[Bluebear]

80. I fully believe this OP.

[Luminous Animal]

81. I do, too. I also believe that if I had started a thread with the opposite, I'd be eating a pizza.

[City Lights]

92. As do I, and it's not one bit surprising. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

85. Isn't it against DU rules to support anyone but Democratic candidates?

[LoZoccolo]

94. Yes.

[RandiFan1290]

86. I like turtles!

[mmonk]

88. They are closer to your ideology?

Usually if you sign one, you help both gain ballot access. They usually both raise funds for the same legal challenges to the system, even with the same law firms.

[Ichingcarpenter]

89. I will now

get off of your lawn

[Bonobo]

90. I would do the opposite and I'll tell you why.

If the Tea Party has shown one thing, it is that the only way to really exert a strong influence over one of the two major political parties is to hold a legitimate thread over their heads --the threat of withdrawal of support from within their own ranks.

Without such a threat, there can be no influence on the party and by constantly sending the message that you will vote for them no matter what they do --simply because the other side is worse --you are abandoning any influence you may have.

Face it, our vote is all we have and all they will work to get from us. It is our only carrot. Feed it to the Donkey right away without demanding that it moves first and you can guarantee that Donkey ain't going to go where we want it.

[LoZoccolo]

97. What happens when the center feeds the donkey first?

[Bonobo]

101. When the center feeds the donkey first? Nothing much happens.

It's part of the Donkey's expected meal and changes none of its behavior of course, nor does the "center" want it to change.

What we (the Progressives here anyway) are discussing is the best way to effect change.

If you do not want change, Lozo, and are merely content with a victory, then you are perfectly right to focus on what you have been doing.

For many of us, the Democratic Party has moved too far tho the right and must be dragged back.

[LoZoccolo]

108. Is Obama more progessive than Al Gore?

[Bonobo]

109. Perhaps you would be so kind as to reply to the thesis of my original reply to you

instead of trying to lead me down your own primrose path?

[LoZoccolo]

112. I think the primary system can take care of what you're after without putting Republicans in office.

[City Lights]

91. Whatev...nt

[jpak]

96. Fuck the Libertarians

yup

[LoZoccolo]

100. I like the Green Party's positions better than the Libertarian Party's positions.

[blondeatlast]

102. You again. nt

[H2O Man]

107. Hugh.

Thanks for sharon.