The questioning of L. A. school librarians by lawyers with police nearby. Part of The New Normal?

[madfloridian]

Arne once spoke about The New Normal. He called it doing more with less. Maybe librarians fall into this category.

I am noticing now how very easily anything seems acceptable in the realm of education. No matter how hard the reformers push against public schools and their traditions, no matter how many insults are directed toward teachers....we excuse it or defend it.

Today when I posted about school libraries being in effect defunded by this administration, there was much defense and much denial.

I have seen many take the position that librarians are no longer needed because libraries are no longer needed, they are outdated, we have the internet.

The Los Angeles United School District (LAUSD) hired attorneys to interrogate school librarians to see if they would be able to continue on as teachers if their jobs went missing. Interrogating librarians, demanding to know if they take attendance, do they teach?

Here is an interesting article from the American Library Association magazine about the librarian interrogations.

LAUSD Doubts that Seasoned Teacher-Librarians Can Teach

“There’s no better use of limited funds than paying attorneys to harass educators who’ve devoted their lives to helping our children,” Bennett Tramer of Santa Monica, California, said in a letter published May 17 in the Los Angeles Times. A tongue-in-cheek response to the May 13 Hector Tobar column, “The Disgraceful Interrogation of L.A. School Librarians,” the letter concluded: “I also applaud the valuable presence of armed police officers at the hearings; you never know when a librarian will pull out a book and start reading.”

Tramer was reacting to Tobar’s heart-wrenching description of a week’s worth of hearings, in which attorneys representing the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD) asked Kafkaesque questions such as “Do you take attendance?” of dozens of teacher-librarians appealing their layoffs in order to prove to an administrative judge that the teacher-librarians were not qualified to become classroom teachers. At least, that’s what observers such as Tobar and Nora Murphy, a teacher-librarian for L.A. Academy Middle School and blogger, have written about the hearings.

What does taking attendance have to do with being a highly trained educator who is duly credentialed and who teaches how to learn? Here’s the connection: recency rule established this school year by LAUSD officials (and upheld by an administrative judge) states that a teacher-librarian who has not taught in a classroom for five years is no longer, by definition, a qualified teacher, no matter how many years of service and training she or he has. And if a teacher-librarian hasn’t taken attendance in five or more years, she or he must not have been in charge of a classroom. The administrative judge presiding over the hearings upheld the recency rule, clearing the way for the trials. It is unclear when the judge will rule on the individuals’ qualifications.

Yes, there really were police standing by as the librarians gave their testimony.

The disgraceful interrogation of L.A. school librarians

On most days, they work in middle schools and high schools operated by the Los Angeles Unified School District, fielding student queries about American history and Greek mythology, and retrieving copies of vampire novels.

But this week, you'll find them in a makeshift LAUSD courtroom set up on the bare concrete floor of a building on East 9th Street. Several sit in plastic chairs, watching from an improvised gallery as their fellow librarians are questioned.

A court reporter takes down testimony. A judge grants or denies objections from attorneys. Armed police officers hover nearby. On the witness stand, one librarian at a time is summoned to explain why she — the vast majority are women — should be allowed to keep her job.

What's really interesting to me is that once again I get a chance to point out just how powerful the superintendents are who are graduates of the Eli Broad Superintendent's Academy. One of them is in charge of LAUSD while these librarians are questioned by attorneys with a police presence.

Eli Broad grads are changing our schools rapidly and drastically.

The question I ask is why should Eli Broad and Bill Gates have more of a say as to what goes on in my child’s classroom than I do? – Sue Peters, Seattle parent

In recent months, three prominent school district superintendents resigned or were fired, after allegations of mismanagement, autocratic leadership styles, and/or the pursuit of unpopular policies. All three were trained by the Broad Superintendents Academy: Maria Goodloe-Johnson (class of 2003) of the Seattle school district, LaVonne Sheffield (class of 2002) of the Rockford, Illinois school district, and Jean-Claude Brizard (class of 2008) of the Rochester New York school district. Brizard resigned to take the job as CEO of Chicago schools, but his superintendency in Rochester had been mired in controversy. Another Broad-trained Superintendent recently announced his resignation: Tom Brady (class of 2004) of Providence, Rhode Island.

Three more Broad-trainees have been recently placed in new positions of authority: John Deasy (class of 2006), as Superintendent of the Los Angeles United School District, John White (class of 2010), Superintendent of the Recovery School District in New Orleans, and Chris Cerf (class of 2004), New Jersey’s Acting Education Commissioner. Tom Boasberg was appointed Denver’s Superintendent in January 2009, shortly after taking an “Intensive” training at the Broad Academy.

There is some controversy in John Deasy's background, but since he is in a place of power he is not held accountable. Remember, only public school teachers are accountable.

From Maryland 2008:

Questions raised about whether Prince George's schools superintendent earned doctorate


Brenda Ahearn/The Gazette
John E. Deasy, superintendent of Prince George's County public schools, speaks at a school board meeting Thursday. Deasy did not address questions at the meeting over whether he legitimately earned a doctorate degree from the University of Louisville in Kentucky.

The Prince George's County school board is assigning legal counsel to work as a liaison with University of Louisville officials investigating allegations that Superintendent John E. Deasy may have improperly received a doctorate from the school in 2004.

"The board is really and truly reserving judgment," said Verjeana M. Jacobs, county school board chairwoman, before a school board meeting Thursday.

Deasy did not speak about the allegations at the meeting, but was quoted in The Washington Post as saying, "If the university made errors in the awarding of the degree, I do hope they rescind it. My responsibility is to do everything I was advised and told to do. If I was advised wrong and given wrong information, the university needs to take responsibility for that. I certainly would not want anything unearned."

The university investigation stems from reports in Kentucky news media that Deasy was awarded a doctorate of philosophy even though he only completed nine credit hours in one semester at the school. According to the university's policies, there is no set number of credits that doctor of philosophy candidates are required to obtain, however, it has been "customary to consider the equivalent of three years of full-time graduate study as minimal."

It appears that while the Los Angeles district librarians are being submitted to legal interrogation which is based on a really weird court ruling...that their superintendent never had to answer for his own possible lack of accountability.

[madfloridian]

1. And Howard Dean is right again. The battle of unions and charters is nearly over

and the charters won. He seems pleased pretty much with it. I guess he only stood with unions when he was running for president.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/05/howard_dean_the_battle_between.html

“I do believe charter schools are the future, especially for the inner cities,” Dean said, noting that the United Federation of Teachers is running a school in New York.

“There was a battle between charter schools and teachers unions for years and years. That battle is coming to an end,” he said."

Yes, Howard, thanks so much for noticing. The battle is nearly over, and they won.

[Snoutport]

3. FU dean....

the charter schools didn't win....public education is being murdered...there is a difference.

[madfloridian]

4. We dropped our support of DFA for his "shifting" views.

I do hate hypocrisy.

[slay]

130. You are correct - the public school system is being killed off right in front of us

by both Dems and Repubs. At some point I think I am going to have to leave the Dems if they don't get back to supporting public schools.

[kenfrequed]

6. Damn it Dean

You idiot!

I usually agree with what you say and approve of your involvement in the Democratic party, but this is stupidity.

Too many morons watched "Waiting for Superman" and decided to blame teachers. Rather than going with the privatizers who are foisting an absurd experiment on our education system why not instead actually look at the countries that are beating us in education and test scores and try to figure out what they are doing right.

None of them are privatizing their schools with these stupid 'for profit' charter experiments that are going to inevitably deliver a cheaper product in favor of turning out a profit. Market based solutions are doomed to failure because they ultimately entrust something that is priceless to the "ideals" of fear and greed.

[madfloridian]

9. I agree.

With all you said.

:hi:

[Recursion]

10. About 10% of charters are run by EMCs

The rest are doing what they are supposed to do, letting teachers teach. As much as the teacher corps here complains about the stupidity of district administration, you'd think they would show more love for a system that lets them remain in public schools while escaping some from the district's micromanagement.

(Yes, more charters should unionize: the Chicago teachers' union managed to start several charters, which is probably the way to do that.)

Also, there's no such thing as a "for-profit charter school". Period. Some of the EMCs are for-profit (too many), but not the schools, and the incidence of EMCs is overstated here.

[Fumesucker]

11. Are you supporting the grilling of librarians by lawyers with cops standing around?

[madfloridian]

12. Many here would support that.

Because librarians are uppity like teachers. Just kidding. But you'd be surprised how many here are on board with the demise of public schools.

[Fumesucker]

14. No, I wouldn't be surprised..

I don't comment on the education threads that much but I read most of them on GD, I've seen what you relate first hand here.

[Recursion]

15. Sorry, did you reply to the wrong message?

I think you must have meant to say that to somebody else; I was responding to a complaint about charter schools.

[Fumesucker]

19. The OP is about the grilling of librarians by lawyers with cops standing around..

Your comment certainly seemed supportive of this process and I note that you have not answered the question either.

[Recursion]

21. What on earth does a comment about the prevalence of EMCs have to do...

...with how the LA school district conducts its hearings?

Down below I did address it, saying I'm reserving judgment because I have no idea if this is how LAUSD hearings are usually done or if this is some sort of extraordinary setup.

[msanthrope]

53. I am supportive of the process called 'court.' This was a hearing, in front of judge,

where the librarians, and their lawyers, faced the questions of the LAUSD's lawyers.

The cops are called bailiffs---

This happens every day in thousands of courtrooms across the nation....

[msanthrope]

47. Um, it was a COURTROOM. In front of a JUDGE. Courtrooms have armed cops in them, all the time.

Even in civil matters.....

[msanthrope]

51. Um, yes. It's called 'court'. The librarians, represented by lawyers, were

questioned as witnesses in front of a judge.

Those 'cops' would be bailiffs and court staff.

One might see the same, every single day, in thousands of courtrooms across America---

[Hannah Bell]

33. no, higher than that now.

[Recursion]

37. It's 20% if you count non-profit EMCs, I think

Then again those data may be old; do you have newer ones?

[Hannah Bell]

91. 16% . Non-profit emos run about 13-14%. About 30% of charters are run by emos.

To add to this mixture of governance models, many charter schools have another layer of administration:

Educational management organizations (EMOs), which now run close to 30 percent of all charter schools throughout the United States. These organizations began in the 1990s, largely as for-profit entities, thereby injecting entrepreneurship into public schools. Initially, most for-profit EMOs simply took over management of existing public schools, primarily in urban areas. Today, however, such organizations also are active in charter school operation and management.

For-profit EMOs run 16 percent of all charter schools.

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts-At-a-glance/default.aspx

[Recursion]

95. Thanks

I'll look over that and re-think.

[Hannah Bell]

107. you do that. in michigan 80% are managed by for-profits.

the other part of the story is that for-profits tend to have a higher percent of total students and of course, operate across state lines (i.e. national chains).

the other part is that a lot of putatively "non-profit" emos are really for-profit if you track down all the relationships involved (i.e. via such vehicles as renting space from an entity that is actually controlled by the "non-profit" emo or its principals.)

[Recursion]

108. Fair enough; I know DC and VA personally

VA literally treats them on the extreme "this is an education lab" side of things; I think there are only 4 currently in the commonwealth. I actually like how they do it.

DC's charters are a mixed bag, but so are our traditional publics.

I'm obviously not in favor of every states' implementation of charters; I just think the idea can be valuable.

[Hannah Bell]

110. Imagine Schools is headquartered in arlington va. k-12 is headquartered in herndon.

two of the biggest & most notorious.

[Recursion]

112. Yeah but there are only a few in VA

And if you are going to accuse VA of neglecting its public schools you can't even pretend to be honest at that point.

[Hannah Bell]

114. lol. the reason is obvious, i think.

[madfloridian]

13. He's being two-faced.

"Dean said he doesn't like the idea of non-public charter schools, but likes what's happening in New Orleans, where most of the city's schools are now charters."

[Recursion]

16. What's a "non-public charter school"?

If it's a non-public school it doesn't need a chartering process.

[FiveGoodMen]

90. You cannot fucking trust anyone!

Et tu, Dean.

:banghead:

[Fumesucker]

2. WTF?

:wow:

:crazy:

[Missy Vixen]

5. madfloridian, the attacks on educators continue, don't they?

I spent a lot of time in the library when I was a student. Despite the rise of research on the Internet and e-publishing, there will always be a need for research assistance, books, and skilled librarians. Wouldn't it be a GOOD thing to ensure high school students can perform research for class assignments and other interests, and have a librarian on-staff to assist them in doing so?

The Los Angeles district librarians have found out, up close and personal, that the "strides" women allegedly made in the workplace are a fantasy at best. After all, a highly-paid male superintendent is not required to undergo questioning about his qualifications and background; they are.

[madfloridian]

7. Indeed they do. I can not imagine libraries, media centers not being in schools.

I say media center because that is what they called our school library when I was teaching.

[madfloridian]

8. Librarian/educator, Los Angeles.."My employer has become my enemy’

WP has her first hand account of the interrogations of the librarians there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/teacher-my-employer-has-become-my-enemy/2011/05/17/AFF9TB6G_blog.html

“I can observe on my right hand side the attorneys for United Teachers Los Angeles, who are the men that will make my case when the time comes. Their table is laden with binders nearly eight inches thick that are filled with the thousands of documents we teachers have entered into evidence. These are teaching credentials, lesson plans, and letters of recommendation, among other things.... On my left is the school district’s table of attorneys. They have a plastic cart filled with evidence binders and their own files of information collected on each of us in what I can only assume was a rather hurried manner....My employer has become my enemy.

Perhaps the most important thing to note, the most important point of all, is that these legal eagles seem to know very little about education. Pedagogy, current research, and national trends escape them. Their line of questioning is often nonsensical and even absurd, eliciting ripples of laughter among the forty or so educators watching the proceedings. These are the people making the decisions about what will happen, day after day, in our schools."

Oh Dear God...please read all of this. It is unbelievably stupid and ignorant questioning by people who have no clue about education.

I can not believe some of the methods.

Here is her whole write-up of the experience there. Truly sick, truly unbelievable.

http://mizzmurphy.blogspot.com/2011/05/settle-in-its-long-one.html?spref=fb

"Today I am furloughed. Tomorrow I go back to the hearings to plead my case. I do not want to. The next day I go back to school to prepare the library to be closed forever, or to be run a few hours a week by a reluctant clerk, or to be ransacked. The questions continue to pile up, but no answers are forthcoming. Stand by for further developments. Hurry up and wait.

At the bottom of all of this is a political reality that I find so daunting, so dark, that to enter into a discussion of it strikes fear in my heart and nausea in my belly. I believe that this is part of a larger movement in our city (and state, and finally, nation) towards a for-profit education model that takes pressure off of elected officials and puts money in the pockets of clever financiers.

Charter organizations are sweeping the nation, taking over school after school under the guise of a reform movement that doesn’t exist. I believe that LAUSD is in cahoots with this movement. Perhaps it is not LAUSD as a whole, but instead the unseen, rarely heard politicos that move the gears inside the machine, like the Wizard of Oz. The collapse of LAUSD will accomplish some big things for a few people."

[RadiationTherapy]

17. Librarians help us catalog, store, and retrieve the collected knowledge of humanity.

It requires a Master's degree.

[Recursion]

18. Is this more than just a hearing like we have before any public decision is made?

I'm withholding judgment on this because I feel like I must be missing something. It sounds like the kind of hearings we have on all kinds of public issues.

[chervilant]

24. hmm...

" I feel like I must be missing something..."

Indeed.

[Recursion]

40. So, tell me

Do public hearings in California not normally have officers and lawyers? I've never been to a public hearing in California, but the ones I've been to in other states had those.

[chervilant]

43. Well,

does the question of precedence really matter here? Is it not more relevant to ask why LAUSD feels it's appropriate to subject librarians to this experience? Would it not be more to the point to explore LAUSD's agenda, and how it impacts these seasoned professionals?

Is your reluctance to acknowledge this administration's assault on public education an indication of your patriotic allegiance to all things Obama?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Recursion]

45. You're complaining that they're hearing the librarians' grievance?

I don't even understand. The teacher librarians want to be included with the classroom teachers in layoff protections, so the district held this hearing for them. Would you prefer they just ignored the teacher librarians' request and laid them all off with no rehire hope?

[chervilant]

60. Please

provide your sources that substantiate that these librarians requested these RIF hearings.

Do you HONESTLY feel that our nation can afford to grossly underfund education?! We could impose a MODEST reduction on our overbloated military and secure adequate funding for education nationwide.

Just think, we teachers who've not been given a contract for the past two plus years could rejoin the ranks of the employed, and become contributing members of our disintegrating economy. What a concept!

[Recursion]

62. Are you even paying attention?

LAUSD simply wants to axe them; they demanded a hearing about their protection eligibility.

As we used to say on slashdot, RTFA.

[chervilant]

67. Sigh...

I still have not found ANY 'f**ing' article that substantiates your assertions, Recursion, but I can assure you that I no longer care to debate this issue with you (why engage with rude, sarcastic individuals, who won't even post a LINK to the article they allege exists?).

Apparently, you cannot see the forest for the trees. But, you just keep on insisting that you are right, Recursion, that's such an important distinction.

[Recursion]

68. Do you even know what "RIF" is?

It's a hard-won teacher protection. In other states they would have simply been axed.

Why do you keep italicizing my screen name?

[Hannah Bell]

69. a rif (reduction in force) is a "hard-won teacher protection"? lol. how about that link?

[Recursion]

70. The hearing process in RIF?

You really need me to tell you how requiring the district to hold a hearing for any force reduction (almost unique in the nation, incidentally; even NYC can simply lay off with impunity) is a hard-won protection? You think the PTB want to give all of these teachers hearings rather than just ax them like in the rest of the country?

[Hannah Bell]

74. a rif is not a "hearing process". you don't know what you're talking about.

furthermore, in a unionized seniority based system, there are no "hearings" when rifs occur (which they do). layoffs go in order of seniority; it's completely straightforward.

those laid off have first precedence when hiring increases again.

furthermore, districts in ny operated the same.

you're a font of misinformation.

[Recursion]

75. We're *TALKING ABOUT* the RIF hearing process

Which is being described as some horrible barbaric thing despite being much more protective of teachers' rights during layoffs than pretty much anywhere else.

[Hannah Bell]

76. there is no "rif hearing process" in a unionized district. rifs go in order of seniority.

and no, "we" were *not* talking about any "rif hearing process". you were talking about "rifs" and claiming it was a "hard-won teacher protection".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1133800&mesg_id=1137622

you didn't even know what it meant. now you're trying to claim you said something else, along with the rest of the bs.

links for your claims that:

1) la's "rif hearing process" is "unique" & "hardwon" yet
2) librarians *requested* this "hearing process".

[Recursion]

79. Umm.... these are hearings, about RIF. It's in the OP

Disputes about RIF issues and eligibility for Union protection are determined in a special civil court. This court. The one that's being compared to fascism.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

78. Most other districts simply lay people off when they want

And I know you know that because you've written about it before. RIF is a structured way to do layoffs which includes significant protections for teachers (and most but not all non-teaching staff). Honestly I've come to expect more from you than this: this process has some of the strongest teacher protections in the nation, and I know you know that.

[Hannah Bell]

81. all districts lay off people when they want. do you think they keep them on payroll when

there are not enough students?

unionized systems, however, lay them off *in order of seniority*. and those laid off have precedence whenever hiring begins again.

LA is attempting to do something different; or rather, LA, like most ed deformers, is attempting to lay off senior teachers first, the most it can.

Thus this bullshit where they pretend that accredited teacher-librarians aren't teachers.

your bullshit = bullshit.

[Recursion]

98. You said in comment #63 it's not in order of seniority for LAUSD (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

133. as of a court decision *this year*. it was until then. part of the same attack on teachers.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

92. Recursion, allow me to speak from the point of view of one of the participants of such a meeting.

I'm a postal worker. Within the last two years, but closer to two years ago (kept vague so nobody can exactly pin down the date, and thus my location), a public meeting was held to receive input on the removal of collection mail from my area, to be instead cancelled at a site about 50 miles away. Employee after employee, familiar with the system that was in place at the time, stood up and stated flatly that, if the proposed change were to be made, service would suffer, and the costs of the change would override the saved wages from the excessing of employees from my facility to other facilities in the region if those employees were willing to move.

The change was made, the facility that was to take the mail we had been processing couldn't handle it, and that mail is now being processed at facilities yet further away, instead of coming back to my facility (and thus bringing back the actual jobs).

The principal speaker at the public meeting? He's now known as an abominable liar, and was in fact terminated after renewing a lease he wasn't supposed to renew. Funny thing- that lease was in the town that took our mail away in the first place.

Nobody who speaks on behalf of the public at the public meetings has any real impact. In my experience, once the public meeting happens, the deal's already done.

[Recursion]

102. First, thanks for your service

Second, I do understand how corrupt public hearings can become. But it's still better than smoke-filled rooms. I mean, I live and do local politics in a city where any decision we make can be overruled by Congress at their whim; I'm not a naif about these things.

What bothers me is that the hearings which were implemented as a teacher protection are being compared to fascism.

[madfloridian]

20. How sad. Kids already getting dibs to take home library collections.

Something about this situation sickens me. And to those who doubt this is happening....it is. I see some question if this is a reliable post. It is.

Word of the libraries' pending doom is starting to spread through the district. Adalgisa Grazziani, the librarian at Marshall High School, told me that the kids at her school are asking if they can take home books when the library there is closed.

"Can I have the fantasy collection?" one asked her.

If they could speak freely at their dismissal hearings, the librarians likely would tell all present what a tragedy it is to close a library.

Instead, they sit and try to politely answer such questions as, "Have you ever taught physical education?"

It doesn't seem right to punish an educator for choosing the quiet and contemplation of book stacks over the noise and hubbub of a classroom or a gymnasium. But that's where we are in these strange and stupid times."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0513-tobar-20110513,0,4862226,full.column

[Irishonly]

22. It's just wrong

Since when do cops need to be present when a librarian is questioned? I am too angry to make much sense now.

[Recursion]

23. Don't most public hearings normally have officers there?

I'm iffy on the characterization here

[chervilant]

29. Gosh...

Really, Recursion?!

If, as your post suggests, you are honestly interested in the corporatist assault on public education, I strongly encourage you to peruse the archives for madfloridian's commendable documentation of this egregious reality.

[Recursion]

35. So, no answer?

Is it or isn't it normal for public hearings in California to have officers present? Does anybody know?

[chervilant]

44. Why

is this relevant to you? Are you seeking to justify the continued assault on teachers and public education?

[Recursion]

46. Umm...

I'm really not following you, at all. I'm questioning why it's so horrifying to people that

A) Teacher librarians are being given the hearing they sought on being able to get the job protections of classroom teachers
B) Those hearing have lawyers and officers present.

[chervilant]

55. OIC...

So, the librarians SOUGHT to participate in these RIF hearings?! That's an interesting assertion, Recursion. I'd like to see that article/resource myself. Why not post it?

Again, you focus on having 'lawyers and officers present' as though this is standard operating procedure for LAUSD's RIF hearings--one wonders, then, why so many teachers and librarians take issue with this experience--and as though SOP is the real issue here. It's NOT.

[Recursion]

64. Yes. Did you even read the article?

LAUSD wanted to just fire them and they contested it; RIF is the process for that.

I hope they win; we need librarians.

[Hannah Bell]

72. RIF = Reduction in Force, i.e. layoff/firings.

[Recursion]

73. Well, come on, it's used to mean the hearings *about* the layoffs (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

82. no, it's not. rif means "reduction in force," i.e. layoffs. it doesn't mean "hearings".

hearings are not typically a part of rifs. anywhere.

lawyers, courts & police are involved because lausd is attempting to fuck teachers.

[Recursion]

84. Yes, that's a unique protection in LAUSD

Teachers can request hearings during the RIF process. Again. It's a worker protection.

[Hannah Bell]

115. link?

[Recursion]

116. Link for what?

For the fact that most states' layoff programs don't let teachers contest their status in court?

(And, if so, give me a few because I'll have to dig up all the other states' and districts' contracts, but I'
m willing to.)

[Hannah Bell]

117. your allegation that lausd has a unique system of holding hearings for rifs.

[Recursion]

118. OK; like I said give me a few

I'll post the contracts from comparable districts once I dig them up; it may take a while.

[Hannah Bell]

119. might want to look at this first:

http://www.teachinla.com/assistance/faqs/perm.html.


• Request for Hearing: Permanent certificated employees who receive RIF notices have a right to a hearing, if the hearing is requested in writing within seven calendar days. After the District receives the request from the employee, the District will issue a document known as an “Accusation.” The employee must then file a “Notice of Defense.”

The hearing is held before an Administrative Law Judge (ALJ). The ALJ hears the evidence and prepares a proposed decision determining whether the district has proven the grounds for RIF and which certificated employees will be terminated. This proposed decision is given to the School Board and the employees by May 7th. The School Board members may adopt, modify, or reject the decision of the ALJ. Final RIF notices must be given the affected certificated employees before May 15th.

http://www.utla.net/system/files/RIF_newsletter_march2011.pdf


washington state:

Appeal to a Hearing Officer under State Law

Teachers and other certificated employees with continuing contracts have the right
to challenge a nonrenewal or layoff under RCW 28A.405.210. This statute provides
that no certificated employee may be non‐renewed unless he or she receives written
notice of the probable cause for nonrenewal on or before May 15.

http://www.wea-olympic.org/static_content/RIF_Manual_Olympic.pdf


vermont:

E. Procedure for Termination

All requirements of G.S. 115C-325 will be met, including time limits and procedures for notice and opportunity for a hearing, when any career teacher (as defined in G.S. 115C-325) is terminated, demoted, or reduced to part-time employment due to reduction in force or any probationary teacher (as defined in G.S. 115C-325) is terminated, demoted, or reduced to part-time employment during the contract term due to a reduction in force.

http://meetings.abss.k12.nc.us:8888/mediawiki/index.php/5360_REDUCTION_IN_FORCE:_LICENSED_EMPLOYEES

texas:

...The Superintendent shall
provide each employee written notice of the proposed action, including
a statement of the reason(s) requiring such action and notice
that the employee is entitled to a hearing.

http://archive.austinisd.org/inside/budget/docs/AISD_Budget_District_Policy_DFF(LOCAL).pdf


i think i've demonstrated that lausd is not unique. also i'd be willing to bet that most if not all unionized districts have a provision for *individuals* to challenge their *personal* layoff (on the grounds that people with less seniority were not riffed, etc.)

but that's not what's happening in LA. What's happening in LA is that they're targeting the entire *class* of librarian-teachers (credentialed teachers, hired as teachers, whose primary or sole responsibility is currently with the school library.). They're telling these experienced, credentialed teachers that their seniority rights are invalid because they aren't in the classroom currently. They're saying that these librarian-teachers aren't qualified to teach in the classroom & can be laid off regardless of their seniority.

The "hearing" in this case is not an individual challenging his/her unique situation; it's a group of individuals challenging the same situation.

[Recursion]

120. IIS Err 404?

I've seen that more than enough already

[Hannah Bell]

121. no clue what you're talking about.

but i've established that neither california nor lausd has some "unique" hearing system.

and also that these hearings are of a class nature rather than an individual nature.

[Recursion]

122. I clicked on your link. It was the standard IIS Error 404 page

It means the URI provided did not match any existing route in the table.

In fairness I'm on chromium in Linux and IIS is infamous for not following the standards Linux does. (Which are the actual standards promulgated by the relevant & competent defining bodies. Why educators have let proprietary systems have such a stranglehold on educational computing is beyond me...)

[Hannah Bell]

123. i clicked on it & it works just fine.

[Recursion]

125. OK the UTLA link works now (may have been a temporary server error) and it proves my point

They have a well-laid out description of the protections offered professional educational employees of LAUSD, including the hearings being savaged in this thread, which was my point.

[Hannah Bell]

136. no, this was your "point": " that's a unique protection in LAUSD"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1133800&mesg_id=1137777


& as i've shown, it's not.

furthermore, these hearings aren't about individual teachers challenging some special circumstance in their individual cases.

they're about an entire *category* of teachers.

[madfloridian]

128. "they're targeting the entire *class* of librarian-teachers (credentialed teachers)"

Well said. Targeting a whole group of qualified, certified people in the field of education. There is not a single Democratic leader speaking out against it.

[msanthrope]

50. It was a courtroom--the armed officers? Bailiffs and court staff for the judge.

"A court reporter takes down testimony. A judge grants or denies objections from attorneys. Armed police officers hover nearby. On the witness stand, one librarian at a time is summoned to explain why she — the vast majority are women — should be allowed to keep her job."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0513-tobar-20110513,0,3002882.column

Apparently, no one's ever been to jury duty, or seen the inside of a courtroom.

[Occulus]

96. All I saw was media at mine and I'm considered a federel employee. n/t

[Recursion]

97. OK. It wasn't a rhetorical question; I honestly don't know

I've been to a few public hearings and they all had officers there.

I mean, the OP is making it out like the intention was to intimidate the teacher-librarians and I just don't think it's honest to say that.

[truebrit71]

27. Beneath that calm exterior lies the vicious pulsating heart of a serial cataloguer...

...

[montanto]

25. As an LAUSD teacher, I have to ask:

What library? The library at our 4000 student HS campus has been appointment only for almost two years already. As a classroom teacher I have no way to get to the library to make an appointment to use the library. There is rarely anyone there to receive calls for such requests either. Both the library and the textbook room have already been pillaged. It won't be long before all of the most valuable, expensive materials have been looted. We don't all have internet access as there isn't enough money to repair computers and pay technicians to maintain them. We fired most of the plant crew and janitors too, so we all have to clean and repair what we can. Very exciting times. But don't forget that teachers suck. And ALL the students will make it to the top, or else.

[madfloridian]

31. Your post shows a tragic reality.

And oh yes, it is Race to the Top or die. I hate what all these nonsense programs have done to real education. I despise that more are not very upset by it.

[montanto]

39. It's almost too tragic to for some

of us on the inside to deal with. A kind of triage going on that involves real, healthy, living people who want to do something with their lives, but are denied because there isn't enough money to educate them. Plenty for other stuff, mind, but not for education. Lots of us do tutoring and other types of support for free, and provide as much out of pocket as we can, but with furlough days, gas prices near $5., other cost increases, the money runs pretty thin for those of us still employed.

[Angry Dragon]

124. ....................

:hug:

[Starry Messenger]

129. ((hug))

LA teachers are heroes to me.

[AngryAmish]

26. From what I can ascertain from the links, there are some teacher layoffs in LA right now

The question then is who gets laid off. It appears (and I can be corrected on all this since it is a little unclear) that the librarians are saying they are part of the teacher's bargaining unit. So if they are to be laid off then they can return to the classroom (assuming they have seniority). It further appears the LA schools system just wants them to go and does not consider them to be qualified to be a teacher. Again, without the contract in front of me I may be wrong. The hearings are to be determine if they are still qualified under the contract.

Cops? Most administrative law judges in many contexts have bailiffs or other courtroom security. They follow the judges. Overkill? Yes it is. But that is their job. Building court has them. Parking ticket. Contesting tax bills.

[montanto]

30. Lots of layoffs, and the policy is straight seniority: LIFO

If librarians are credentialed, they can return to the classroom if they have enough seniority to stay on at all. At this point if you have less than five years OTJ you are looking for other work. I have 14 years and have been displaced from my present school. Present school let go 60 of 120 teachers!! Class sizes will be 50 or so even in core classes. But we're all gonna make it to the top, so no worries.

[Hannah Bell]

36. no, the policy is *not* straight seniority. due to recent ruling.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/21/local/la-me-lausd-aclu-20110122

[montanto]

41. Right. A technicality, circumstantial.

I guess I should have said "in 98+% of cases, its straight seniority." That ruling was put into place to protect about 100 of 28,000 teachers. There are a few schools in the district that can only draw the most desperate or motivated new teachers, and to lay people off by seniority in those schools is to lay off everyone in those schools. But, as I said, that only effects a few teachers in the whole district. At my current school (which I am being displaced from after 14 years) there will not be any teachers in my department with under 16 years of time on the job, and there are currently people on campus with much less time than that who will not be protected by the ruling you mention.

[Hannah Bell]

63. nope, considerably more than 100 teachers

In a landmark decision that could lead to scrapping seniority-based layoff policies at schools statewide, a judge ruled Friday that L.A. Unified could not fire new teachers at 45 campuses because the high turnover unfairly disadvantages students.

http://www.presstelegram.com/speakout/ci_17164817



and there are more like 40K teachers in the lausd.

During the 2007-2008 school year, LAUSD served 694,288 students, and had 45,473 teachers and 38,494 other employees.<1> It is the second largest employer in Los Angeles County, after the county government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Unified_School_District


it's anything but a "technicality".

[chervilant]

59. Just think

All those TFAers fresh out of college, with their wee earbuds tuned in to Mr. Gates, facing a crowd of fifty or more students crammed into a classroom designed for no more than 32...

Yeah, that's the ticket. Sounds like a great education to me...

(I really do feel sorry for those TFAers, but I wish they'd educate themselves about how their program is being used to 'retire' veteran teachers...)

[Recursion]

104. It must make you feel really big to dump on the TFA teachers

You know, the ones who faced an uncertain job market and took what they were offered and are all very passionate about actually serving their communities.

Where the **** do you get off?

[Hannah Bell]

127. see? your record speaks.

[Recursion]

131. The one where I defend young teachers who are fucked over by seniority rules?

Yeah, I'm happy for that one to speak for me.

[Hannah Bell]

134. "teachers" with 5 weeks training from an ed deform outfit are scabs, not teachers.

as a class.


furthermore, if you "support" TFA teachers, then you do not (as you claim) "hope the librarians win".

Because the librarians are being targeted specifically to make way for TFAers & the like.

[chervilant]

28. hmm...

I hate to open another can of worms, but I feel this is crucial. I just conferenced with one of my art students about an 'online health course' her school has arranged as an alternative for students who prefer to take another elective (art, music, drama, shop) during the school year. The health course is mandatory, but the online version is not--even though the school is strongly encouraging their students to take the online course. My student just wanted to know 'what I thought of online courses.'

Here's what I really think (not what I told her): I think schools are exploring a transition from traditional classroom teaching to online courses. I think that--once our children are old enough to be left alone at home legally--the majority OR ALL of their education will be offered online.

I am appalled at what this nation has become...

[madfloridian]

32. The online ed company owners are going to rack up the money.

They have pushed for this for a long time. You are definitely on to something. FL will now require one course I think, waiting to find out more now. These companies like Bennett's K12 are on the move.

[Shireling]

34. This is very weird!!

Why does a librarian go before a judge to justify her/his job? Isn't that between the employer and employee? Are the teachers/librarians challenging a decision in court?

Staring at a computer screen is a terrible way to learn. Books are so much more comfortable.

And if libraries are totally online, it is too easy to delete important info. Important books, documents, etc. could simply disappear down the memory hole. Books can always be held in libraries and defended by librarians from censorship. And the reader's identity can be off-limits to anyone who inquires. Librarians have always defended democracy in this way.

This is becoming like 1984.

[Recursion]

38. They want to be in the layoff "pool" with classroom teachers rather than simply dropped

Basically, they're saying they want the same considerations as classroom teachers when it comes to being let go and re-hired. And this hearing is to determine if they should or not. And like most hearings, officers are present and the litigants are represented by attorneys (I'm not sure why the lawyers' and officers' presence is being characterized so negatively here).

I'm curious where the teachers' union stands on this.

[chervilant]

48. hmm...

I think you need to reread this post. Furthermore, I think you would benefit from a wee bit of research. When you question the perceptions of numerous DUers who are struggling to become or to remain educators in these dangerous times, you give the impression that you doubt the validity of our concerns and our experiences.

I stand by my assertions on a previous thread:

For those who felt Obama would make manifest the hope and change he promised during his campaign, his lackluster and often antithetical performance is grounds for concern, if not criticism.

Obama's assault on our system of public education is reason enough for me to question his intent and his integrity. That is not only my RIGHT, it is my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen of this nation. And, as a teacher, I can guarantee you that I possess the cognitive and deductive reasoning skills to ascertain when I'm being offered a plate full of red herrings.

[madfloridian]

42. Yep, libraries going into the memory hole.

:shrug:

We need to fight it, but how?

[msanthrope]

49. COMPLETELY MISLEADING OP!!! This was a courtroom, a hearing in front of a judge.

These librarians were witnesses. Interrogated??? They had their own lawyers there.

The armed cops??? Those would be bailiffs.

Jeebus--you'd see the same at JURY DUTY!!!

[chervilant]

52. So

here you are yet again, casting aspersions on madfloridian's commendable efforts to document this administration's destructive policies re: public education. If you're so solidly convinced that our system of public education is NOT under assault, why not post defensible resources that might enlighten those of us who've come to the same conclusions as has madfloridian?

These fly-by denunciations of yours are NOT helping.

[msanthrope]

54. So, I am correct, then??? It was NOT an 'interrogation,' it was 'court?'

I suggest that if one wishes to document destructive policies, then one ought to at least name them properly--

I fail to see how a routine administrative hearing in front of an administrative judge, with a court reporter, and court staff becomes an 'interrogation' except in the most fevered imagination.

[chervilant]

57. And,

I wonder why you think RIF hearings that cause such a controversy among teachers and librarians are "routine." Do you agree with ANY of madfloridian's posts about the current status of public education in the US?

(I've looked at every source madfloridian provided with this OP, and many educators--self included--feel these hearings are yet another result of this administration's destructive policies.)

[msanthrope]

61. It is routine for a judge to have armed court personnel. As for the RIF hearings, they are

happening because the librarians asked for them. They are contesting their RIFs, and I hope the UTLA got the librarians at issue great lawyers. They filed their complaints, and now, have their due process.

I also hope that Jerry Brown is able to restore some funding.

As for madfloridian, when I have something to say about her posts, or her, I'll address her directly. She doesn't need a go-between.

[chervilant]

77. Really?

I have yet to find the article that discusses this. If, as you allege, the librarians asked for these RIF Hearings, then I hope the outcome is positive. Too many of my veteran teacher friends have been RIFfed.

As for madfloridian, I am NOT trying to be her 'go-between' and you don't have to patronize my legitimate inquiry regarding your apparent negativity about her advocacy for teachers and unions. I've personally witnessed your previous attempts to discredit her efforts, and I don't understand why.

[msanthrope]

99. These hearings are the result of the contesting of RIF notices--

that's how the hearings come about.....

[XanaDUer]

56. I posted this a week or so ago

do you notice, these fields and workers being grilled are, predominantly, in female professions? Demonizing teachers, librarians, social workers.

[Hannah Bell]

85. ed deform is also targeting high-minority, high-poverty districts/schools first.

nyc's teaching force has gotten considerably whiter over the last 5-odd years as a result of ed deform.

same thing with public workers in general; blacks are disproportionately affected as they're disproportionately likely to be public workers.

[Recursion]

87. Remember Rhee's idiotic claim?

Something like "surprisingly, 'highly effective' teachers are clustered in schools with a lot of upper class white students" or something like that. Unfortunately that line has taken hold in the public.

[XanaDUer]

138. Yup

What astonishes me is, on a progressive boards, some just don't "get it".

[chervilant]

58. Well, mad,

nothing substantive or helpful from your naysayers, as usual. Wonder what it's going to take for these poor souls to recognize what's being done to public education...

[RagAss]

65. I can see this in Fucktard states...but LA ????

[Recursion]

66. People! The RIF process is a hard-won *TEACHER PROTECTION*

LAUSD can't simply dismiss them; they have to have hearings like this.

[CreekDog]

83. a hearing is one thing, treating them like criminal defendants

by cross examining them with law enforcement present to prove they aren't qualified to teach

-that's low.

oh, and what's the county paying those attorneys to prove the librarians should be terminated?

way more than the librarians make themselves.

this is a sad day for America and California.

we are dismantling our educational system and all your beloved charter schools aren't going to fix that.

the almighty dollar rules and the welfare of children and their education will play second fiddle to how little the wealthy want to pay in taxes and the whims of the megarich who contribute tax deductible dollars not to schools, but to schools that do things exactly how they want them done.

what a joke. i thought we were running a first class nation here. :wtf:

[Recursion]

86. Hearings are by nature adversarial

The district wants to lay them off with no regard to their experience. The teacher-librarians (rightly) don't want that. The district will employ its lawyers to undermine the teacher-librarians' case. This is how hearings work.

You want me to say teacher layoffs right now are a stupid idea? OK: teacher layoffs right now are a stupid idea and I oppose them. What I won't do is ignore attacks on a system that affords teachers greater protections than almost anywhere else: most places these teachers couldn't even get a hearing about this.

I still haven't found what the CA TU thinks about this. I'd like to see that.

[CreekDog]

89. you'll defend it to the end

your hearing will come too, no matter how strong your loyalty.

[Recursion]

93. Defend *what* to the end? I want the teacher-librarians to win

And I'm glad that at least LAUSD had the sense to give them a hearing process to stand up for themselves.

[CreekDog]

88. What a disgrace K&R

This is not the best nation on earth, let's just get over that idea.

When you look at our poverty, our educational system and it's current defunding, our healthcare system's omission of millions and millions, etc. etc., our life expectancy, our falling wages, our shrinking middle class, and the lack of vacation/sick leave so that people and families can take care of themselves and each other

It's just a disgrace that these measures show us falling so far behind even as we remain the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth.

It's kind of sad. :(

[Recursion]

94. It's a disgrace that this hearing was necessary

It's a hard-won victory that this hearing was possible.

[CreekDog]

100. you can't even bring yourself to say that librarians shouldn't be fired

jeez. i mean, dozens and dozens of your posts and not one word about the downsizing of education in California and the harm that is doing to children.

just isn't on your radar, or worse, you support it.

you've given no indication you oppose any of it in this thread and i don't frankly know how one could hide anger about this turn of events if they are posting dozens of times in a thread about laying off teachers and librarians.

[Recursion]

101. I've said it like three times on this thread

Reading comprehension. It's not just for 3rd graders.

[Hannah Bell]

103. of course he can't. he is predictable that way. one of the regulars on the ed deform threads.

[Recursion]

105. WTF?! I've said 3 FUCKING TIMES on this thread I want them to win

Seriously, what the hell?

And ironically, you were accusing me upthread of dishonesty...

[Hannah Bell]

109. your record speaks.

[Recursion]

What "record"?

Way to dodge what I'm edging towards calling your dishonesty.

I said IN AS MANY WORDS several times here that I think the teacher-librarians should win.

Unlike you (apparently) I'm glad that LAUSD (nearly alone among school districts) affords them the protection of this hearing.

I'm done. Later.

[Recursion]

111. What "record"?

Way to dodge what I'm edging towards calling your dishonesty.

I said IN AS MANY WORDS several times here that I think the teacher-librarians should win.

Unlike you (apparently) I'm glad that LAUSD (nearly alone among school districts) affords them the protection of this hearing.

I'm done. Later.

[Recursion]

126. Way to not answer

I take that as an answer in itself.

[bertman]

106. This kind of stuff is DESPICABLE! I never thought I'd see the day. REC. nt

The 'stuff' I'm referring to is the fact that we in America are treating our teachers the way they are being treated.

I'd also like to comment that there is so serious "talking past each other" going on in this thread. But I've come to expect that here, especially regarding this topic.

That too is very sad.

[Dawson Leery]

113. Obama's grade on education "reform": F

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

135. Indeed, it has been an amazing thread. Teachers and librarians are pariahs here now.

It is quite sickening.

[Jakes Progress]

137. Most of the usual crowd avoid education threads because

they know they really have no leg to stand on when it comes to corporatizing schools and bashing unions. So they just keep out. But every once in a while the neocon brainwashing shows up with some.

This is the saddest part of the death of the liberal Democratic party.

[bvar22]

139. Dean is a "good" Democratic Party soldier.

he will eventually support whatever the party leadership tells him to support.

Who can ever forget this one:
"Without a Public Option, there IS no reform."---Howard Dean,
and his infamous reversal immediately after the Party Leadership trash canned the Public Option.

I have no problem with Charter Schools,
as long as they don't receive a single nickel of Public Tax Money.
This includes all variations of the Voucher Scam..

The Taxpayers already pay for one Public School System.
They don't need to fund another one.
If the Public Schools are broken,
FIX THEM!!!
Do NOT replace them with a scam that direct more public money into private pockets.

[madfloridian]

140. Yes, sadly that is what he has become.