The point isn't what your beliefs (or non-beliefs) are

[MrScorpio]

The point is that you have the right to believe (or not to believe) in them, without having someone else coercing their beliefs (or non-beliefs) on to you.

That's the hallmark of a free society and the free exercise of religious belief (or non-belief).

Anyone who tries to force their beliefs onto you, while declaring that they are doing so because of freedom of religion is a liar and a hypocrite… Make sure you tell them that to their faces and that we live in a free society. Your belief (or non-beliefs) is no one else's business except your own.

Whether anyone a believer or a non-believer shouldn't matter to anyone else at all… It merely is, like grass is green and the oceans are blue.

Why is any of this up for debate?

[Warren DeMontague]

1. What'd I miss? Was someone actually able to make someone else not believe something?

Wow. Shit. Who knew anyone could do that?

[RandomThoughts]

2. And that people don't have to preach to express there beliefs.

They will do that exact thing in all their actions.



But we are not discussing the issue.

I am due beer and travel money, and many experiences.

[darkstar3]

3. Because great minds discuss ideas.

[pnwmom]

4. They don't ridicule each other's ideas if they're trying to actually

have a discussion.

[darkstar3]

5. They also don't place ideas on pedestals...

something about special pleading...

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Oh, okay. I get it now. I thought this thread was actually about people 'coercing' other people to

believe or not believe.

I see, now, that it's another exercise in special pleading that certain ideas are to be removed from critical analysis and/or ridicule, no matter how bald-faced idiotic they are.

[Silent3]

6. If you define "coercing" and "force" as nothing more than verbal criticism...

...and questioning, that's bullshit. The right to believe as you wish does not, and should not, come with a guarantee to be kept is a safe little cocoon, carefully insulated from criticism and debate.

[GeorgeGist]

7. Thanks for the dogma.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Of course, the only way I'd know about someon's 'beliefs' is if

they tell me. Why would they tell me? If it is not my business, why am I being told about it, and why do so many groups of religious people spend so much time talking about other groups, organizing against them, spending millions to prevent minority rights and all of that?
A sacred thing is kept sacred. Any object brought to the table of debate is open to debate. Folks who do not wish to hear criticism or disagreement around their beliefs could and should simply keep those beliefs sacred and private. The moment anyone uses religion for their own agenda, as a tool or tactic in secular politics or social exchanges, that person's religion is no longer sacred, and no one has to treat it as if it were. It is just another tool of politics, like a poll or a pundit's opinion. Place your God on the table as your reason for secular action, your God is now a political object, and you did that, not others. They can not expect to use the divine as a personal shield or bludgeon and still have it treated as divine, rather than as a weapon.
It is up for debate because of the fact that most use religion as a cover for their own flaws. Like John Edwards, going on about how Baptist he is and how he sees Marriage as a Sacrament to be preserved for 'one man and one woman'. He was fucking his mistress, and going on about how gay people getting married would offend his religion. What Edwards might 'believe' is not of consequence, his actions and words most certainly are. The fact that his lexicon dripped of dogma and religion does not mean that he should not have been called out for the bigotry, and in the end, the raving lies and false witness he gleefully spoke against others for his own benefit, all while claiming it was not him, but God, who said and did these things.
Do you, OP, think that people have the right to be racists if they think that is what God wants them to 'believe'? If the racism is couched in religion, must we then 'respect it'? Refuse to counter it? Should we say 'this bigotry should not matter to anyone else'? When the bigots start organizing politically to take rights from other races, must we still say 'what is it our business'?
Take the Uganda 'death to gays' laws. Promoted there by religious people, including American Evangelicals. Is that like the grass is green too? No one should be bothered by it?

[TheKentuckian]

9. While I significantly agree with your post there seems to be some form of

conflating sacred with secret in there. Or at least I get that impression. Something can be sacred and on "front street".

[Warren DeMontague]

18. What if my religion says that 2+2=5?

I demand that no one suggest I may be wrong. In fact, I want to get a passing grade on my math test, while we're at it.

[seabeyond]

10. i would suggest that non believers has surely crossed your line on this board, and often

as a religion should not push their beliefs on people, the non believer should have the same role.

[Fumesucker]

11. No offense intended..

But it's just a pale reflection here of what non believers experience every day in the USA.

Like fish do not notice the water in which they swim believers simply don't notice how religion soaked our nation is.

ETA: Just imagine what would happen if a presidential candidate were to put to put up an ad like this touting his atheism.

There would be a collective shit fit the like of which this country has never seen.

[seabeyond]

12. before saying another word, i have not expressed my beliefs or not....

i rarely share cause they are truly mixed up adn different... i am not into any religion, am into all religion, live by no religion and again all religion, and non religion.

that being said.

i live in a fundie area and kids might as well be non religious (well, they are non religious, but are christians,... ok or not... bah hahahah) and i have had about a decade and half in my face learning about fundamentalism that was a totally new concept for me until i moved in this area. HUGE learning experience. and hard and fast when kids were in a private christian school in early 2000's whent the hate was whipped up by bushcos

i am saying

ya

i get it.

[Fumesucker]

13. Thanks for getting it..

:hi:

:toast:

[seabeyond]

15. .

:hi:

[felix_numinous]

14. That is what once was taught in civics class

--that we are American citizens first, then are free to choose our belief system.

But our belief system cannot trump our inalienable rights.

This is what has changed as a result of pandering to extremist groups.

Our secular laws and society is what made this country civilized -- it is in fact a cornerstone.

[treestar]

16. Christians feel they have a duty to "witness"

I believe Jews do not - wish I was Jewish!

That's the problem right there. And the reason Christians have missionaries all over the world and are forever bringing up religion.

If each religion could just drop that idea and go and observe their own observances and leave others alone to do the same.