81 year old woman forced back to work as a lunch monitor at local high school to pay property taxes

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110106/NEWS01/101060327

Gov. Cuomo, in property tax push, turns to Irondequoit resident Geraldine Sullivan

Nick Reisman and Jill Terreri • Gannett Albany bureau • January 6, 2011

ALBANY — Gov. Andrew Cuomo enlisted the help of an Irondequoit resident in his first State of the State address on Wednesday to illustrate how high property taxes are hurting New Yorkers.

Cuomo recognized Geraldine Sullivan, 81, during the address when he vowed to seek a 2 percent cap on annual property tax increases.

"Geraldine lives alone on Social Security and owns her own home," Cuomo said in his speech. "Her home value, property value has gone down and her taxes have gone up. Geraldine could no longer afford to make ends meet. What did Geraldine do? So at 81 years old she went back to work as a lunch monitor at the local high school just to be able to stay in her home and just to be able to stay in the state ..."

---------------------------

Ah, the Golden Years. Do everything right. Work until you can collect a pension. Pay your house off. And then can't afford to live there because your property taxes have gotten too high. This is not right. Anyone who tries to tell convince you this is right is full of shit. Fuck that.

Don

[Brickbat]

1. Now that's the kind of bootstrapping this country needs more of! She's not waiting for any

government handout to come by and help her out, she's helping herself! And how wonderful that she's mentoring teenagers while doing it -- that's just the kind of win-win-win that it's going to take to make this great country even greater.

[notadmblnd]

2. I hope that statement was sarcasm.

[nc4bo]

4. I hope so too. nt

[NNN0LHI]

5. LOL

I can spot excellent sarcasm.

And that was good.

Don

[nc4bo]

10. 1st thought was sarcasm but sometimes you just never know.

But yea I got the :sarcasm:

[Brickbat]

15. Thankya!

I refuse to use the smiley, but I find it telling that some can be fooled by right-wing rhetoric on this board.

[notadmblnd]

23. Who was fooled?

or was that just your way of getting a dig in at those that questioned you? Believe it or not, there are right wingers that come here and sincerely spout that very talking point. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked if you were being sarcastic since you are unable to indicate such in your post.

[chrisa]

72. And then she'll fullfill the American dream!

[nc4bo]

3. There are so many tales such as this and it IS wrong...

Damned property taxes can average out to be as high as a mortgage payment. Very difficult on the fixed income elderly, especially when they live alone.

I've thought of this a little and always wondered why property taxes, like in the situation above, could not be based on a sliding income-based scale?

It's insane to have an old person homeless because of an inability to pay property taxes.

[Retrograde]

35. This was an impetus behind CA's Prop. 13

In the 1970s property values were rising so quickly that people who were on fixed incomes couldn't keep up with them.

[frazzled]

6. Doesn't New York have property tax relief for seniors?

Most states do. Because a lot of seniors are living in property that was not expensive when they bought it but is now, and they can't afford the taxes. Both MA, where I lived before, and IL, both have programs/laws/etc. to help keep seniors' property taxes down so they can stay in their houses.

[frazzled]

14. Answering my own question

New York State Real Property Tax Law, section 467, gives local governments and public school districts the option of granting a reduction on the amount of property taxes paid by qualifying senior citizens. This is accomplished by reducing the taxable value of residential property owned by seniors by 50%.

To qualify, seniors generally must be 65 years of age or older and meet certain income limitations and other requirements. For the 50% exemption, the law allows each county, city, town, village, or school district to set the maximum income limit at any figure between $3,000 and $29,000.

Localities have the further option of giving exemptions of less than 50% to seniors whose incomes are more than $29,000. Under this option, called the sliding-scale option, such owner can have a yearly income as high as $37,399.99 and get a 5% exemption in places that are using the maximum limit.

* * *

So, then, this is a local government issue. But I don't see what this woman's case has to do with putting a 2% cap on property tax increases for the entire state. I don't believe in property tax caps, and it's what got California into all that trouble. There are plenty of billionaires in NYS who would love to see a cap on their property taxes. There are a lot of schools and poor people who will suffer if those caps are put in place.

Not nice, Andrew. Stop using old people to get what you want for the well-heeled.

[tsuki]

28. We have a 3% on homesteaded property. All other property floats

with the market.

But there needs to be some oversight so that tea bagging Republicons don't homestead in two states so they can educate their sons at in-state tuition. Like a certain Governor of Maine and his wife. Still cannot find out if she voted in both states.

[Statistical]

7. It sucks and she should get some tax relief but why not a reverse mortgage?

That equity in her home has value and any remaining value won't do any good after she is dead. Why not tap it rather than work yourself to death in a lunch room at age 81?

Hypothetical value of reverse mortgage: $200K home (paid in full) Age 81, no spouse. She could collect $929 a month in reverse mortgage for the rest of her life, Or draw from a $116K line of credit.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Perhaps she already did that a couple of decades ago for all we know?

And now maybe that money is gone?

I don't think she would be taking this job at 81 if she had a lot of other options left. Do you?

Don

[Statistical]

17. I don't know. Often elderly don't know their options.

A reverse mortgage is a lifetime payment. You get a check for the rest of your life. The value of that check is applied to the home after your death.

Example: reverse mortgage of $1000 per month @ 6%. You draw $1000 per month for 100 months before dying. Principle & Interest is (as an example) $118,489. Your home is worth $200,000 at death. The bank gets $118,489 in equity in the home. The remainder can be passed to an heir.

[ljm2002]

25. "Why not a reverse mortgage?"

Right. So now we EXPECT people to drain every last drop of equity they have built up over the years just so they can live comfortably -- even if they have planned and done everything right. Because, dontcha know, it will do a lot "more good" that way.

How the hell do you know it won't do any good after she's dead? Maybe she dreamed of having something to leave her surviving family. Maybe she thought she could give the equity she had built up to her favorite charity. But no, the right answer according to you is to take out a reverse mortgage so some bank or real estate company can suck the marrow out of her bones.

Man I hate the way things are these days. She owns her house free and clear, so now the banks have figured out a new way to repossess it. Just talk oldsters into reverse mortgages, with a little help from strapped state and local governments who continue to raise property taxes (on the few properties that are left with owners who are actually paying said taxes). And in the meantime, the big banks and the big real estate companies and all the big guys pay less and less in taxes, and get richer.

Quite a system we've got here.

[Statistical]

27. Oh get over youself.

I said she should get some relief but if it my mother and the choice was
a) work at age 81 so she can leave equity in the home to me that I neither deserve nor need
or
b) get reverse mortgage to gain cashflow from the most valuable asset most Americans ever own

I would pick B hands down.

Working yourself into an early grave in order to transfer wealth to next generation which hasn't earned it to me is silly. I guess I am a horrible person to think she should take care of her self FIRST at age 81. She earned it.

Also even with reverse mortgage any remaining equity can be passed to heirs or charity. At age 81 it is unlikely she will live (statistically speaking) long enough to deplete the equity in her home.

Spare me your tired poutrage.

[ljm2002]

32. I understand...

...you are right that it is an option, and possibly the best one for the woman in question.

Still, reverse mortgages are another illustration of how the banksters get us coming and going. People are put into dire straits and that becomes their best option. But the overall effect is to continue to strip assets from the middle class, and this at the same time that the upper classes benefit from unprecedented lower taxes and protections on their estates.

So yes, I did react emotionally, and might have tempered my remarks. I certainly did not intend it as a jab at you. But I make no apology for my outrage on this and other topics. I freely admit to being outraged at many of the developments of the last 30 years or so. The middle class are losing their assets while the upper class continues to scoop them up. So while an individual may indeed benefit from the reverse mortgage, it may be their best option precisely because their other options have been systematically whittled away by the powers that be in this plutocracy we call home.

[Dappleganger]

41. If you would make that choice for your aging parent...

you have no business being charge of her well-being. And I say that as a daughter who's had to look at those issues for her own father, the reverse mortgage is a scam.

[Statistical]

44. Hardly. It is no more a scam than a "forward" mortgage is a scam.

My mother has $200K cash in a bank account. She uses it to purchase an annuity to provide a monthly check for the rest of her life.
My mother has $200K equity in her house. She signs a reverse mortgage to provide a monthly check for the rest of her life.

Wealth is wealth. $200K in home equity = $200K in wealth. It just happens to be in a very illiquid form. You can't spend 1/200th of $200K in cash. You can't sell of 1/200th of your house. Reverse mortgage is merely a mechanism to convert that wealth into cashflow.

[Dappleganger]

45. Her house isn't worth 200K if the market tanks again.

And we're in for a double-dip, if you've been paying even a little bit of attention.

[Statistical]

55. The market tanking doesn't change the terms of the loan.

You can't be evicted from a reverse mortgage.
Your monthly checks don't stop just because the property loses value.

"Double Dip" Why would she care. A reverse mortgage gives you a monthly fixed check for the rest of your life. While alive you can't be forced to sell the house, the check doesn't ever stop. Once the person w/ reverse mortgage dies the value of the checks is deducted from the equity in the home and any remaining equity can pass to a peer.

If anything when one believes housing may be worth less in the future a reverse mortgage makes MORE sense.

[Dappleganger]

58. A reverse mortgage prevents a homeowner from passing anything down to their children.

In other words, the kids get nothing and poverty is perpetuated.

[Statistical]

60. Nope.

A reverse mortgage only reduces the owners equity share by the amount paid out under the reverse mortgage.

i.e. a retiree who collects $50K under a reverse mortgage would have their equity stake in their home reduces by $50K plus interest.

The longer a retiree lives and the larger the check they collect the less that is passed on but that is the same with any asset. If you parent retirees with $1 mil in the bank.... the longer they live and the more they draw from it the less they will have to pass on to their heirs.

[kath]

65. Huh? Since when is it a god-given right that everyone get an inheritance from their parents?

WTF?
"Poverty is perpetuated"? Again, HUH???!?

[kath]

66. You don't agree that choice B is far better than choice A?

What. The. Hell.

[marybourg]

33. I'm so old that I remember when people did save all their

lives so that they could be semi-comfortable or, at the very least, not be a burden on their children in their old age. Leaving money to heirs was something only the wealthy thought of. And it's certainly not a constitutional right. It's just another right wing meme to keep us from being willing to pay taxes, IMHO.

[Cutatious]

48. How about just eliminate property tax for those over 75?

Move that shit tax to the income taxes and leave those alone that worked for what they have.

[Statistical]

56. I got no problem with that. Hell I would eliminate ALL property taxes for everyone

and replace it with an increase in income tax (as progressively scaled as possible).

[MilesColtrane]

8. Two things my state gets right are the homestead and over 65 tax exemptions on residences.

They remove a good portion of what would be your annual property tax bill.

Once you hit 65 and qualify for the exemption, taxes on your house can't be raised above what you pay that year.

[postalanthrax]

9. There should be exemptions for paying property taxes.

If you're on a fixed income of limited means below a certain level you're property taxes should be waived.

Why are we doing this to people?

[stray cat]

11. The values of many houses skyrocketed - more than triple their value

that means higher property taxes. If the mortgage was underwater the property taxes would be less. Its a difficult situation because if she sold it and bought another house in the area it would not help but if she sold it and bought one in a less expensive part of the country she could make 100s of thousands

[Moosepoop]

26. That's true, higher property value = higher property taxes.

But in this lady's case, her home value went DOWN and her taxes on it still went UP.

"Geraldine lives alone on Social Security and owns her own home," Cuomo said in his speech. "Her home value, property value has gone down and her taxes have gone up. Geraldine could no longer afford to make ends meet. What did Geraldine do? So at 81 years old she went back to work as a lunch monitor at the local high school just to be able to stay in her home and just to be able to stay in the state ..."

That's the part of this story that I don't understand... why would her property taxes rise if her assessment went down?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Some localities raise rates to meet the budget

[Still Blue in PDX]

47. I've wondered that about our house, as well. nt

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

31. It only means higher taxes if property tax increases aren't capped, as they are here in California

The good provisions of Proposition 13 have allowed many, perhaps millions, of Californians to keep their homes.

[WinkyDink]

50. Are you REALLY suggesting AN 81-YR-OLD WOMAN MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE?

Do you have ANY conception of what it means to have your familiar, several decades' worth, of doctors, dentist, friends, stores, mechanics, church, HOME, COMMUNITY??

AND YOU SUGGEST THIS OLD WOMAN SHOULD SIMPLY MOVE, THAT IT IS EASY-PEASY?? "she could make 100s of thousands"??

Both cruel and daft. Kudos.

[NNN0LHI]

53. When I posted here that I won't be able to afford my property taxes once I was told to rent.

Problem solved the poster wrote. And not one DUer questioned that.

Thats when I realized it was every man(or woman), for themselves.

Don

[WinkyDink]

78. No reason to take on the negative traits of others.

[Jokerman]

13. This is anti-property tax propaganda.

I think it's a shame that anyone would have to come out of retirement to pay their bills but the real issue is her retirement income, not her expenses.

She is being exploited by the rich people who don't really give a damn about her. They just want to save themselves a few dollars at the expense of our schools and infrastructure.

After they cap the property tax they'll raise the sales tax because that hurts poor people more than the rich.

[frazzled]

16. I agree: see my post above. /nt

[nc4bo]

18. Slimely.

Reading some of the comments in this post definitely dropped the knowledge.

Hopefully Cuomo will be called out on it.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Propaganda?

Then riddle me this. Why am I finding myself in the same predicament as this woman? By the time we finish paying off the house we are living in the property taxes alone will be more than my entire mortgage payment which included Principal, Interest, Property Taxes and Insurance was when we bought this house 21 years ago. And when we bought this that mortgage payment was based on our income when I was still working which was 3 times what I get on my pension.

So you think this is just all a figment of our imagination that we won't be able to afford the property taxes on this house after its paid for? Is that what you are suggesting? That there is really nothing to worry about? We should forget that our property taxes have already quadrupled in the 21 years we have lived here? From $1200 per year 21 years ago to almost $4800 now. We should just act like that didn't really happen? WTF?

Don

[Jokerman]

36. Yes, it is propaganda.

propaganda
Definition:
1. publicity to promote something: information put out by an organization or government to promote a policy, idea, or cause
2. misleading publicity: deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread


I'm not saying that there aren't inequities in the property tax system or that every single property tax calculation is fair and just, but it is a progressive tax designed to pay for the impact your property and the residents have on the infrastructure. Across the board property tax caps are part of the strategic class war the rich have been waging on the rest of us for years. Property tax cuts and caps are usually accompanied by an increase in a regressive tax like the sales tax. Government spending doesn't change, the only change is in where the money comes from and which level of the government controls it.

If your property taxes are too high there is a good chance that you're paying more to make up for abatements they've given to their corporate buddies.

[NNN0LHI]

38. The description for what is happening is called reality not propaganda

Reality

Meaning:

1 : the true situation that exists : the real situation ▪ He refused to face/accept reality. <=the truth> ▪ the difference between fiction/fantasy and reality ▪ She's out of touch with reality. <=she does not know what is really true> ▪ The reality is that we can't afford to buy a house. ▪ He used television as an escape from reality.

2 : something that actually exists or happens : a real event, occurrence, situation, etc. ▪ The movie shows the harsh/grim/stark realities of war. <=the things that really happen in a war> ▪ Her dream of competing in the Olympics became a reality. <=she competed in the Olympics, as she had dreamed of doing> ▪ They made the plan a reality. —see also virtual reality

-------------------

When I look at my property tax bill that is reality not propaganda. I wish it was just misleading publicity as you are falsely suggesting but it isn't.

Its like you asking me who am I going to believe? You or my lying eyes?

Don

[Mimosa]

67. Older people in this country are being screwed over. n/t

[Jokerman]

68. Did you even read my post?

I made no claims about the "reality" of the tax bill received by you or anyone else. I'm saying that you are being lied to about the reasons your property taxes are too high and about the true motives behind the proposed solution.

It is right-wing, anti-tax propaganda and you, like too many others, have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

[NNN0LHI]

69. Did you even read your own post?

Here is what you posted.

propaganda
Definition:
1. publicity to promote something: information put out by an organization or government to promote a policy, idea, or cause
2. misleading publicity: deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread

-----------------------

If you are trying to tell me that it is right-wing, anti-tax propaganda to not want my wife and I to be tossed out of our home because we can no longer afford the property taxes you are barking up the wrong tree.

Don

[Jokerman]

74. You can keep setting up those straw men and knocking them down...

or you could try to address my actual argument:

"you are being lied to about the reasons your property taxes are too high and about the true motives behind the proposed solution"

The corporate lackeys in our government are doing what they do best, create a crisis and then frame their agenda as the only viable solution.

You're so hung up on my (accurate) use of the word "propaganda" that you can't even see that I agree that many people are paying way too much in property taxes. It's the lies about why they are high and the simplistic solutions that they're selling that I'm calling propaganda. Even if you don't think they are spreading misinformation the word still applies so get over it. (Hint: Try reading def #1, you know, the one you DIDN'T emphasize)

[LanternWaste]

40. After this therefore because of this...

"Yes, it is propaganda."

After this therefore because of this... :shrug:

[Jokerman]

75. Is there supposed to be an argument here?

Or are you just pissing into the wind?

[badtoworse]

42. You should count your blessings

I live in New Jersey and we really get hosed. My property taxes are over $10,000 and people I know in other towns tell me I'm getting a good deal.

[badtoworse]

43. Cuomo has said he will not raise taxes

He is going to cut expenses. That is the right move

[howaboutme]

19. Property taxes should be eliminated

They are unfair, subjective and expensive to assess, and everyone thinks they are being screwed. They are also counterproductive because they discourage home improvement. It should be replaced with a tax on consumption and income and wealth which is much more efficient to collect and more fair to the elderly. It amounts to requiring people to rent their houses forever from the government. I've seen cases where big wheel politicos get special assessments (i.e. PA Sen Fumo)in Philadelphia where his house was assessed at $250K and worth millions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. I agree with that. Replace the property taxes with higher upper-end brackets for income taxes.

And estate taxes. And capital gains taxes. And maybe others I forget.

I am of the opinion that money should only be taxed when it changes hands.

[howaboutme]

39. Use estate taxes

I agree. Estate taxes represent unrealized gains and they should be taxed at capital gains rates for everyone including all residences. Forget the exclusions for everyone. Those taxes could be used by the states to fund education equally for each district per student and it would be far more efficient than property tax.

The school boards want the consistency of property taxes but it definitely can become an unfair burden on seniors. When the property owner dies then the sale of property should become a fully taxable event.

[GSLevel9]

46. I'll buy that... nt

[Fla_Democrat]

61. Property tax IS a tax on wealth

You are taxed on the value of the property.




:smoke:

[howaboutme]

71. But it is arbitrary and counterproductive

The value of real estate is subjective. It is based upon a costly assessment and guesstimate. It is counterproductive to society because it discourages home improvement and ownership. It amounts to renting ones home from government. One option as mentioned earlier is to use estate taxes on unrealized gains (including home ownership), with no exclusions as a replacement funding option paid to the state, which would then be shared among all districts.

[badtoworse]

73. You're right, that 81 year old woman is loaded.

Her doctor must have told her she needed to get of the house more often.

[littlewolf]

20. Here are some articles on him ....

here is the NY daily news take ...
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/01/06/2011-01-06_gov_andrew_cuomo_has_the_right_fix_to_nys_fiscal_crisis__and_sheldon_silver_must.html

he ruled out tax hikes ... I guess the school tax (property tax) doesn't count ...

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_212342001.shtml

and here he wants to turn crisis into opportunity

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20110106/NEWS/101060342/Cuomo---We-can-turn-this-crisis-into-an-opportunity-

[sarcasmo]

21. USA, USA, USA.

[bullwinkle428]

22. Banksters destroy the national economy, which in turns decimates

state economies, and 81-year-olds are then forced back to work to pick up the tab of those continuing to pop the corks on $5000 bottles of champagne! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'm sure Alan Simpson is finding this to be absolutely hilarious! :argh:

[Catherina]

29. Disturbing but altogether too common. Rec'd. n/t

[dembotoz]

34. lucky she is able to go back to work-not all 81 year olds are

me mom is now 90
lives pretty independently although i stay there most nights just because......
While in pretty good health for a 90 year old--going back to work to pay taxes would not
be a practical thing for her to do.

[OverDone]

49. Uh

That is just insane what is going on. When your over 70 and you have to go back to theses silly jobs, something is wrong here. very wrong

[WinkyDink]

51. Wow. Way to miss the point.

[badtoworse]

52. I'm hoping it was a tongue in cheek comment...

...but you can never be sure around here.

[RagAss]

54. Get to work Granny !

[kath]

57. USA! USA! USA!

Greatest country in the world!! Boo-yah!!

"and I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free."

[derby378]

59. This is what America is turning into...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBpJGofk6CY

[HCE SuiGeneris]

62. The American Dream

continues to disappear in the fog of complacency...

[howaboutme]

77. I love this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

[HEyHEY]

63. Are you kidding me? Where I grew up your property taxes couldn't go up past retirement age

Get some fucking laws down there

[eridani]

64. Is it really true that some states and counties have no senior exemptions?

AT $42K/year, we are just slightly over the limit for getting partial exemptions from property tax. Even if you don't qualify for this, you can postpone taxes in exchange for a lien on your property. Should both of us make it past age 78, we will do this.

[Vinca]

70. Ah . . . the golden years the Republicans are hoping we all have.

How many greeters can a Walmart employ?

[xchrom]

76. My guess is that this woman knows about reverse mortgages - hard not, theyre

All over television -- and she's holding on and working to pass
That property on to others.

Life insurance policies and homes -- popular ways to pass what little wealth
Working class people accumulate on to their families.