When It Comes to Abortion, Norway and the United States Are on Different Planets

[marmar]

from Dissent magazine:



When It Comes to Abortion, Norway and the United States Are on Different Planets
Carole Joffe - June 14, 2011 2:30 pm


On a recent visit to Norway, I had asked a Norwegian colleague to arrange an interview for me with a physician involved in abortion provision. Dr. Anja Hauge (not her real name), a prominent gynecologist, agreed to meet with me. In her introductory email, she mentioned that she worked in a large hospital department where “we, of course, also provide abortions.”

“Of course”?! In the United States, it’d be shocking to see “abortion,” “hospital,” and “of course” in the same sentence. Only about 5 percent of all abortions performed in the United States occur in hospitals, and even these relatively few procedures are increasingly under attack. The Republican-led House of Representatives, in one of its first acts after taking control in January, passed the Orwellian-named “Protect Life” Act, which would permit hospitals receiving federal funds to refuse abortions to women in life-threatening situations. Just last month, the House passed the Foxx amendment, which would withhold newly available funds for comprehensive medical training from hospitals that provide abortion training.

When speaking with Dr. Hauge, I got the sense that Norway and the United States are on two different planets when it comes to abortion. To summarize our conversation:

•Abortion is “completely integrated” into the Norwegian health care system, paid for (like other medical procedures) by the government, and available virtually everywhere in the country.

•OB/GYN residents are expected to undergo training in abortion provision, and though opt-out provisions exist, very few young physicians make use of them.

•Health care professionals involved in abortion provision are neither sanctioned by medical colleagues nor harassed by anti-abortion activists.

Abortion, in short, is largely non-politicized, both in Norwegian medical circles and the population at large. .........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://dissentmagazine.org/atw.php?id=473

[ihavenobias]

1. K & R n/t

[Rhiannon12866]

2. K&R!

:toast:

[Ex Lurker]

3. I can boil that article down to one sentence

Norway is more civilized than the US.

[hifiguy]

15. +1

It really is that simple.

[defendandprotect]

31. +1

[awoke_in_2003]

36. as is most of Europe...

and Scandinavia.

[canetoad]

4. When it comes to most subjects

The USA and the rest of the world are on different planets. Problem is most inhabitants of the USA don't know it.

[nxylas]

5. And to no-one's surprise...

...Norway has a lower abortion rate than the USA. We should be asking Republicans "Why are you forcing more women to have abortions?"

[TBF]

8. Really good point about Norway's abortion rate being lower than the USA -

imagine what a little education, awareness, and common sense in dealing with life issues can make. This is the same with gun laws. Americans demand to have their weapons, then wonder why their crime rates are so high.

[nxylas]

9. I think it's something Democrats should throw back at Republicans

The fact that Republicans have been able to frame the abortion debate as "the party of life vs. the party of death" is one of the biggest issues keeping the people hardest hit by Republican policies voting for Republicans. Rather than expecting Evangelical and Fundamentalist voters to change their minds about abortion, which ain't gonna happen, Democrats should point out that their approach has a better track record of reducing abortion rates than the Republican approach of criminalizing women.

[LeftinOH]

6. Norwegians have "better access to contraception & have comprehensive sex education

policies, and a generally more mature attitude toward human sexuality." Thus explains their lower abortion rate; we're so damn backwards in this country.

[Diclotican]

7. marmar

marmar

That was intersting, to se it from the outside beeing from and living in Norway. Its little wierd to se how mutch "fuzz" it is all about when it came to abort in US.. Specially when it have been legal for so many years.. Both in US and in Norway.. We do have a few outspooken nutcases in Norway too - They was verry active in the early 1990s, but was soon marginazed to a level where no-one would give them more air-time. They was even trown out of ther clerical cloth, as they was part of our national Shurch orginally.. (Statskirken) Now I belive them to be minister for some fundy church who no one know about and they are absolutely in the minority when it came to power. In fact I doubt that they wil ever be given the same power that the same type of fundy shurch are given in US...

Abort is legal, and have support in most of The population, as the article is stating. But it is also a personal shoice if you want to take abort or not.. And as the article also is stating, the statistic is given away a important evidence about abortion in Norway - few use it becouse we do have propper education when it came to the subject - and we also have a fairly decent wel-fare system, where partes are given all shances to have a child.. And also a decent childrens protective service - who are trying to helping when the partents are not up to the job all the time.. But thats another case maybe..

I do not know if we are more Sivilized as one are stating, but I belive we might have managed to get to another choice than US, abortion is more or less a non political issue in Norway - and have the support of 99.9 percent of the population.. Most pepole understand that most who have to use abortion, is not using this becouse they want, but becouse thing are less than stellar, for the posibility to give a child a decent future.. But in the end, abortion is a personal shoice in Norway - and we do not jugde anyone who are using it any way..( At least most of us do) Its allways a history behind it all...

And it is maybe also, becouse the Shurch in all, have not the same power over people than in many american communities.. Most peopole is not even active, even tho many is member of our National Shurch - mostly by tradition.. And a lot of norwigians are not even member of any organized shurch at all... And it all goes down to the fact that we do have a decent education system.. Not percect, but decent.. Where Fundy ideas are for the most part given no rights.. Most of Norwigians are by all standard "rich" and well off and dosen't need to be part of a shurch for help and comfort.

And it is maybe more becouse of the fundies in US, th doctors wanted to change name, than for the norwigians - most peopole in Norway wil never blow up abortion clinics, or hospitals becouse of that.. In fact I belive most norwigians to be rather peacefully and contend with how things are running.. We are bitching of about HOW things should be running, but for the most part, we are contend with most of how things are running..

If you ever are seeing Sicko by Michael Moore, a part of it, is given a aye into the Norwigian public healt care system. But in many cases he was afraid of showing off all of it. Mostly becouse if the whole affair was shown to the american public, he would be accused of lying to everyone - our Healt Care system is in many cases amazing - to a limit where he had to "sensur" part of it.. You can se a lot of it on youtube by the way;)

Diclotican

[inna]

10. LOL, now that's funny as hell - Michael Moore had to CENSOR parts of his

movie where it dealt with the Norwegian health care system, as to not offend our sensibilities and avoid the "culture shock"! :rofl: :rofl:


hey, i believe it; I lived in Europe and - unlike the majority of Americans - I'm fully aware of exactly how fucked up our system is.


:(

[Diclotican]

30. inna

inna

Its true, he had to take out a part of the movie, becouse it would not be liked in the US, and if they get to know, how things are outside the US, they might not belive it - or wanted the same as we do have.. And even tho some americans, know that outside the US, public healt care are not just a pipe dream for the naive one, but a reality for many.. And it is not a pipe dream, but a system who works, becouse the majority accept that a healt care system, for everyone is better than a private one, who you have to pay into every time you need it - or pay a premium who are far larger than you might need. Or, that your "fines" when you are in need of using your healt care plan, is ruining your life.. Today, one of the most dangrous treath to personal ruin, is troubles with healt and incurance companies who are more or less fleeing you when you need it.. I have been following a lot of treads here on DU, and it is not nice to read some of the stories... Rather ugly... Im glad I desided not to emigrate to the US when I was younger... I had plans for that once, but for some reason or another I was never to be. And now I guess Im best of here I are;)

Many americans know, but the majority are clueless of the posibility of a public founded healt care for everyone... Where you pay taxes, but where you are given back when you are in need of it.. Its not perfect - but far better than personal ruin becouse of pooor health.. And your system sounds like it is ruined by the greed of the CEOs who put money over everything else... US is broke, and can experience a lot of violence in the future if you all, are not able or willing to change.. The great revolutions in Europe, dosen't happend just becouse of accidents.. It happend becouse enough was enough.. And this can happend in US, if it goes to bad..

I hope US can reform and change.. But I fear it wil be turbulent, and a lot of violence before it happend.. Mostly becouse to many americans is ignorant of the posibilites outside their own country.. And when you are been told from young age who superior you are to the rest of the world - it tend to stick even when the facts are proven wrong...

Diclotican

[defendandprotect]

32. Norway is run by intelligent people, in US corporate/fascism controls us --

[Diclotican]

35. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

If you read our news papers you would not belive we was run by intelligent peopole.. but yes, for the most part we ARE governmet by peopole who for the most part agree that a disent wel-fare system is the best way forward. The big difference is how to do it, not if we should have it... Even party's on the right is in agreement that we have needs for a wel-fare system.. And as one of our former member of the conservative party (Høyre) once said it when asked why every party was in agreement about the principiales of our wel-fare sytem. "Most peopole in Norway is rarther "liberal" in the sense that we suport our current system, and dosen't want it changed to some different... You can say we are a liberal country for the most part".. And thats say a lot, that even our conservative Party respect and are in agreement of things are been run...

If just americans wake up and understood that, you can be conservative - but support a wel-fare system who support the weak and humble around us too.. To me, it looks like US are govern by peopole who could not care less about millions of their own people as long as they voted for them.. And then again after 4 year... The best and the worst of the old world, was coming togheter and made US posible.. But the worst have von the game, and now you have a country who are ruled by the rich, for the rich.. And Dam the rest of the population...

But what they do not know, the rich and powerfull - is that sooner or later, all this Dam the rest, can blow up in their face if they dosen't understand some facts of life.. Sooner or later they might loose more than they ever wil know... Even US can get their July 14 (Bastille Day) if they are not carefully..

Diclotican

[defendandprotect]

37. Thank you for your reply ---

US is a liberal nation, as well -- however corporate fascists have had hold of it

since 1963 and have turned things upside down.

To take it to its extreme argument -- violence will always win any debate.

But what they do not know, the rich and powerfull - is that sooner or later, all this Dam the rest, can blow up in their face if they dosen't understand some facts of life.. Sooner or later they might loose more than they ever wil know... Even US can get their July 14 (Bastille Day) if they are not carefully..

Agree -- but the battle for this nation and to take down standards in other nations has been going

on for almost 50 years now -- and one the first of the sequences was the coup on our

president which also took our "people's" government -- quickly followed by CIA operations which

overtook our press. See: Operation Mockingbird


Obviously, the last time our elites all over the world tried this with the help of elites here

-- notably Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles and others -- it was not immediately stopped and raged

on until it had spread to much of the world. Had they had control of the White House at that

time and had been able to suppress more of the press at that time, would the Third Reich and

Hitler and his Nazis have been defeated?

This time around, they are obviously trying to take down democratic nations systematically --

leaving no one democratic nation or bloc of nations powerful enough to save the rest.

Wish I could be more optimistic about this -- but the levels of corporate/fascist criminality

are so blatant and so widespread that it seems clear.

And the suicidal exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life and the planet by

corporations/capitalism/elites has been going on for such a long period of time that the threat

to our planet -- and the threat from Global Warming -- is severe.

Severe enough to have begun to create major weather disruptions across the globe --

and there is no way to envision how all of this may compound.

There was a 50 year delay in Global Warming where the first effects we began to feel were

controllable and not that uncomfortable -- what we have felt so far only reflects the

environmental damage we have done up to about 1960. The effects and the chaos are increasing.


This "gap" in our feeling the effects of the damage began to serve as a warning -- but very

quickly the oil industry stepped in with tens of billions of dollars to propagandize the

public spreading lies and misinformation about Global Warming.



:(

[Diclotican]

38. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

True, most of US is liberal - but fallen pray to some of the most extreme wiews on the rigt side of the political spectrum - I would not say Conservative - but outrigth far right as most conservatives I know about - and I know a few, have doubts about the whole thing happend in US today.. And this is persons, who have been in US many times, and who "love the american way"... But who also have a fair sense of making the playing field a fair one...

The fight for what is right, wil never end, not in our lifetime at least.. To many people is gaming the system, for the few and belive they might be rich as they are one day. And in US to many buy into the fantacy, that you can make it big one day. EVEN IF ALL YOUR ODS are against you.. And it works quiet well as long as the public is ignorant of the facts about the world outside of US. And many americans are really ignorant about the rest of the world. When most high schoolers dosen't can find their continent on the map, then something is horrible wrong.. I can understand they dosen't know about Norway, or Belize, as they are fairy small country, few peopole and not excactly high on the international agenda as they are peacefully nations.. But when they loose a whole continent, then something is really wrong in the education..

After 1963 many things was going the wrong way in the US.. The US love for wars is one thing that really have making US broke. Just imagine how different things would have been, if US had spend half the money they have been spending on the military, on things that would make Earth a better place.. Just imagine what NASA could have been doing, if just a small ammount of the military spending had been given to space exploration... It is not to far fetchet to think about permament colonies on the Moon at least.. Not at Mars - jet but a permanent colony on Moon by now, would not be to far fetchet.. Or the fact that we could have make most of our ilnesses something of past...

Or, we could have ended the cold war 20-30 year before it ended.. With the benefits that prosperity for all against all odds would have given us.. I know that your Kennedy, wanted at least to calm down the cold war in the early 1960s, as he was not to found about the cold war Specially after 1962, when the world allmoust ended becouse of nuclear weapons on Cuba.. The generasl wanted to blow Cuba out of the water, and start World War tree.. Kennedy and the political leadership in Washington managed to have cold heads, and make the right dessisions.. Even tho the generals really was pushing for war.. Not just in the caribians, but also in Europe, where most of the NATO alliance who bordered to USSR, or Warzawa pact nations - was building of for the fact, that a war would loome over the horisont any minute.. A boss of me once told me about it all, they was keeping an eye on the Soviets on the Norwigian-Russian border, and was ordered to have live ammo in their weapons - and order of killin the first russian who was to go over the border, regardness if he had weapon or not.. Thankfully no russian made it over the border, and it was most a horrible show of force from the Soviet side the couple of weeks it was active.. But they DID know that the Soviets was ready to go west, if the order was ever given - and the norwigian army, navy and airforce was maybe not up to the task to stop 10 divisions of soviet mech armory on their way westward...

Its horrible the whole consept, that the rich are gaming the system as they are doing.. Making the rest of the world in pain, when they are sitting behind their gated communities, withouth any remorse or sympaty for the rest of the world.. And they do belive it sees, that this is somthing that wil never end... But if they know their history, they would know that withouth social contract, and also withouth a viable middle class, the end would be a revolution.. Any big revolution the last 1000 year, have been about the same thing.. To many poor, to many withouth food, to many withouth discent work and so one.. It is a reason even the Peopoles Republic of China (Communist China) are spending so many ressourses to have social calm in the country - they know, that withouth the support of the masses, they could everything they have managed to build up to now!

The same can happend in US too, if the rich dosen't understand what is breewing under their feets.. Its rather scary to see on the outside how unfarly everything is been made in US this days.. DU are overflown by this, and it is depressing to se, how a great nations is falling down, and down allmoust by the day, from the big montain it once was.. Or it is just me who are getting some education about how things are in the US this days?..

One day, if the powerfully are not able to understand it, it can end up in something worse than ever before. It can be the start of a revoltion, who can topple everything everything US have made posible for the last 235 year... It can also end up, in a outright dictatorship, if the right President wanted to do it, that way...

But then - I guess the nobles of ancient regime in France, most of Europe, and Russia untill the pessants was marsing true their gates and trow everything they own out the door, had the same idea that the world would never end, and their life would be as they ever had been.. Untill they ended up with less than their former pessants.. It _can_ happend in US too..

Diclotican

[Bodhi BloodWave]

39. if you haven't had a chance to see the clip yet :)

here is a youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTzbj3fRSw

[CanonRay]

11. They're lucky not to have 25% of their population that are religious wackos.

Unfortunately, we do. I wish they'd secede and form a little Christian Iran, complete with old fart mullahs with southern accents.

[femrap]

26. me too!!!!

Let them have AL, MS, SC, GA, even FL....just get them off my back and out of my uterus.

Hey, we can dream. Sorry if offending progressive people in AL, MS, SC, GA, and even FL. Hell....I'd move....they can have OH!!!!

[bossy22]

12. is it really fair to compare

a country with a relatively small homogenous population to the U.S.- a country with a large heterogenous population.

I think this would hold more weight if it was comparing us to France, UK, Germany but Norway is just too small a country. It produces less economic output than the state of new jersey

[marmar]

13. What does that have to do with abortion?

nt

[bossy22]

16. its a useless comparison

the author is trying to incinuate that the U.S. is backwards when it comes to this issue. Whether or not they are right, comparing us to Norway doesnt add much firepower. Norway is very very different from the U.S. This would be like me proving that you are a genious by comparing you to a dog

[chervilant]

24. hmm...

The author was not insinuating anything. The author clearly stated her position.

The United States is filled with frightened, angry, deluded people. Sadly, many of these poor unfortunates are uneducated or functionally illiterate. Commonly, these unfortunates inflict their resentments and fears on others, instead of being self-reflective and seeking ways to ameliorate their angst or ennui.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Margaret Mead

[defendandprotect]

34. Agree -- however enlightened leadership and our free press are supposed to be educating

the public to remedies -- new visions of better ways to live --

"The myth of a free press died with the assassination of Pres. John F. Kenendy"

[defendandprotect]

33. Difference is ....

intelligence vs corporate fascism --

so US is a "dog" and Norway the "genius" -- ?

Guess I have to agree -- !!

[chervilant]

21. Actually,

given that Norway IS such a small country, isn't it wise of the Norwegians to use their GDP to provide so well for their population, something we could do if we put our collective minds to it.

[xocet]

25. Your invalid argument is a distraction from the actual issue that the article brings out.

Your argument follows this outline:

• You question the appropriateness (the fairness) of the comparison instead of addressing that which the comparison illustrates.
  
• Size and the amount of homogeneity of the respective populations are noted.
  
• The amount of homogeneity is summarily jettisoned, and size of Norway is ambiguously noted.
  
• The size of the amount of economic output of Norway is noted.
  

So, your argument is tangential (hence a fallacy) and invalid (since there is no consistent line of reasoning through it).

Beyond that and wholly separate, your spelling is oddly inconsistent across your posts in this thread. You can handle 'big' words like homogeneous and heterogeneous, but fail to properly spell 'genious (sic: genius)' and 'incinuate (sic: insinuate).' How bizarre and ironic that you discuss an intelligence comparison and cannot spell genius! However, my comparison of 'genious (sic)' and heterogeneous may be unfair.

[Karenina]

27. Abortion is not a hot button issue in Germany.

There was a dust-up about "Scheins" a decade ago with the Catholics which was quickly doused. It's considered a private matter.

[SpankMe]

28. Yes, it's fair to compare.

The comparison is one of policy and not magnitude. If we were comparing economic output, land area, agricultural capacity - anything physically quantifiable - then I can see a case for including disclaimers or data normalizing in order to keep comparisons valid. If we had significant cultural disparities (like San Francisco vs. Saudi Arabia) then I could also see a case to discard the possibility of meaningful comparison.

But, both Norway and the U.S. are developed, first-world democracies with high caliber civic and academic leadership in science and medicine. We both allege that we're free, equitable societies that place a high value on the rights of women.

And yet, we're moving in opposite directions at the speed of light on abortion policy.

I'm pretty sure the U.S. is moving in the wrong direction on this. Republican opposition to abortion is so intense that it's psychotic. And that anti-abortion intensity is branching out and affecting systems that have nothing whatever to do with abortion.

[hobbit709]

14. The US and any civilized country are on different planets.

[robcon]

18. I think it is sick to call the U.S. an uncivilized country.

A new low, IMO.

[hobbit709]

22. What would you call making the rich richer at the expense of the poor?

Cutting services to the bone and beyond.
Endless wars
Erosion of the Constitution

If those are examples of "civilization" then count me out

[immoderate]

23. Depends on what you think it means to be civil.

If you spend some time in European countries, you will find them to be more civilized. America is still the "wild west" where people are left to fend for themselves.

This shows in our higher levels of poverty, homelessness, infant mortality, and death from lack of access to health care. Isn't that "sick" too? Wealth disparity is also worse here. I don't think you can call these results civil.

--imm

[Galraedia]

29. You forgot to mention.

You forgot to mention that we're also behind on technology and number of patents being submitted.

[Maraya1969]

17. This sentence is terrifying.

Protectpublican-led House of Representatives, in one of its first acts after taking control in January, passed the Orwellian-named “Protect Life” Act, which would permit hospitals receiving federal funds to refuse abortions to women in life-threatening situations."

Can you imagine knowing you are going to die and they are just going to let you die? Women go to the hospital with ectopic pregnancies. I had one but it was caught so early I didn't end up in the hospital. But if some of these Republicans get their way the embryo would have continued to grow and would have killed me. Instead they gave me a drug that terminated the pregnancy.

They don't think of the ramifications of their actions. A monkey thinks more than that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. I'm sure they have thought of the ramifications - they just don't care

They think it is a right to watch a woman (and, of course, her embryo/fetus) die rather than take any action that would save the woman but not the embryo/fetus. They may well have been thinking of this case:

The head of the Catholic church in Phoenix has stripped Arizona's largest hospital of its Catholic affiliation after he ruled that a decision to save the life of a mother by terminating her 11-week pregnancy was morally wrong.

Bishop Thomas Olmsted announced yesterday that St Joseph's hospital can no longer be considered to be Catholic. The ruling breaks a relationship that stretches back to the hospital's founding by Catholic nuns 115 years ago.

He has also excommunicated the member of the hospital's ethics committee that permitted the abortion to go ahead.
...
Tests showed that in the early stages of pregnancy her condition deteriorated rapidly and that before long her pulmonary hypertension – which can impair the working of the heart and lungs – had begun to seriously threaten her life. Doctors informed her that the risk of death was close to 100% if she continued with the pregnancy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/22/us-catholic-bishop-hospital-abortion

The Republicans were backing up the bishop; they think his decision that he'd rather see a woman and fetus die, rather than anyone take an action that would mean the fetus dies a few days earlier, was not just legal (I'd like to see a hospital forced to treat the woman in that situation, or face criminal charges), but moral and worthy enough for government funding.

[efhmc]

19. The flip side of that is that they also provide

child care.

[StarsInHerHair]

40. too bad it's past 24 hours, so I'll kick it up this way instead

I'm really sick of the Right dictating what everyone can do with their lives, & now even if the woman's LIFE is at risk-no abortion! WHEN will people unite & stop this madness?