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The [Bill] Clinton Doctrine: Always be Attacking

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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:00 PM
Original message
The [Bill] Clinton Doctrine: Always be Attacking
Why did we abandon the paradigm that gave us our only reelected, two-term President since FDR? Whatever criticisms one might have of the Clinton Administration---and I have several---you cannot deny that he and his team knew how to fight, with every punch thrown at them immediately countered.

Al Gore adopted a less agressive approach, and ended up in a position where the theft of Florida robbed him of the presidency, in a race against Incurious George the Vice President should have won with 340+ electoral votes. In 2004, John Kerry thought the Swiftboat ads were beneath the intelligence of the American people, not meriting a muscular response, and we got four more DickInBush years.

Obama got away with taking the high road in '08 because the economy was going down faster than Jenna Jameson, and because his 72-year-old opponent's choice for vice president had a lower IQ than Jenna Jameson.

He won't get away with it again, and I hope the hell his reelection team is telling him that. Loudly and repeatedly. The President should also listen very, very carefully to the counsel of the man in the title of this post, a guy who---let's not forgot---took Republican majorities in both houses of Congress and proceeded to OWN them.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. the Progressive wing.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Are you talking about birds? nt
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. The neo liberals stopped fighting
They're more aligned with the goals of the GOP, so why fight?
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. President Bachmann
That's why!
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. DOMA, NAFTA, DADT, Glass-Steagall, Telcom Act of 1996...
Quite the fighter.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. ....
:thumbsup:
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. From the first paragraph:
"Whatever criticisms one might have of the Clinton Administration---and I have several---"

:-)
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Just pointing out that he threw in the towel fairly often...
He didn't stand up to the right wing attacks well either. Van Jones = Joycelyn Elders, Welfare reform = extending the Bush tax cuts, DOMA = what the fuck?

And this is coming from a person who voted for him twice. This "fighting spirit" of Clinton idea seems more myth than reality to my recollection.
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. "Shutting down the government" =
"Refusing to raise the debt ceiling." When Gingrich & Co pulled their shit in the mid-90s, Clinton called them on it, and made sure the public knew which side was throwing the monkeywrench. The current Administration seems to take seriously the "earnest refusal" of the GOP to raise any taxes as part of a deal, and appears unwilling to call their bluff on defaulting while making it loud and clear the Republicans will be responsible should that happen.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. How many more days does Mr. President have now? A couple of weeks.
Wonder if that is enough time.
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And therein lies the point
Thus far, Obama hasn't swatted the Repubs like the bleating little spoiled brats they truly are.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. There is a HUGE difference between "shutting down the government",
which Obama avoided with the right getting very little, and "refusing to raise the debt ceiling" leading to defaulting - even briefly on the national debt. For this to happen now with the current fragile US and world economy risks a major catastrophe.

What makes it scarier is that - as Rachel Maddow conjectured - there may be some Republican leaders, willing to risk a second recession like the painful one that could, without this default, take most of decade to recover from, in order to get power and to decimate many of the programs they have wanted to destroy for decades.
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Which is EXACTLY why
Obama should look the GOPhucks in the eye and ask them, "Do you want to be responsible for the creation of Weimar America?" (Of course, given that half the Republicans probably admire Adolph Hitler deep down, I'll grant you that might not discourage them.)
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Leaving out German references, that is kind of what he did to get the budget
I hope that he will be able to do something similar here - though the fact that the left made it pretty clear that he gave up very little - rather than let them pretend they got a lot, may make that harder.

But, they really need to use the fact that Americans are VERY comfortable with tax increases as part of the solution - and very against MEDICARE destruction being part of the solution. One fact that would be good to get out more is that the NYT found that rolling back ALL the Bush tax cuts, eliminates 75% of the deficit - all by itself. Now, you can't pass a red face test and say that businesses can't thrive if tax rates are at that level - because they did. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/business/economy/13leonhardt.html

Remember that in a recession eliminating the deficit altogether is not needed. Do this, close some loop homes, AND invest money on things like infrastructure.
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ImNotTed Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. We have found common ground
Well, you and I, at least. ;-)
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. +
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. He didn't fight the most important battle of all: To prevent the Second Depression.
He simply signed into law the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, which repealed the Depression-era Glass-Steagall Act that prevented consolidation between commercial banks and investment banks. That law was enacted after it came to light that "conflicts of interest" emerged in the 1920s that led to the Crash of '29 and the Great Depression.

Yeah, sure, he won two terms, but he, through carelessness, played a part in bringing the US economy to its knees. That's a high price for victory.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. Kerry did fight back with far more real ammunition than Clinton had for any of his 1992 defenses
Edited on Tue Jun-28-11 02:28 AM by karynnj
The difference was the 2004 media was NOT the media of 1992 - and neither is the current media. (In 2008, the mainstream media sided with the Democrats, countering Fox and talk radio's RW echo chamber to some degree. For 2012, the media may be worse than 2004, but at least Obama as President will have more of a platform to get his message out than Kerry had.)

Kerry campaign's immediate reaction to the August attack was to put out 36 pages listing lies and discrepancies in the book. That was done within ONE DAY of the book's emergence in August.(In 2008, the first reaction of the Obama team was to put out 41 pages on lies in Corsi's book.) This should have been sufficient to spike their attack. How many lies are people usually allowed when they are disputing the official record, offering nothing - not one Telex, photo, or record sent upward discussing Kerry as the problem portrayed in the book - as proof. They also later proved the links to Bush - in funding, lawyers, and in one case the B/C people were caught passing it out. In addition, Kerry surrogates including some of his crew, Rassman and Cleland countered it. (Like Kerry, Obama used surrogates against Corsi rather than respond himself)

That was far more proof countering the liars than the Clinton machine ever put out on anything. The problem was that it went to the media and they refused to play the role of evaluating who was telling the truth - the Washington Post's editor even saying they wouldn't. The broadcast media was worse. Would Obama have done as well if the networks and cable TV failed to give coverage to his speech on race in the furor over Reverand Wright?

Many Democrats, including Edwards who was asked to, did little. It wasn't that they had no ammunition to use. There was an abundance of proof - far more than would be typically available as they hit against a well documented official record. Even before the August re-emergence, the Kerry campaign had already provided the media with more than enough backup for them to reject the August attack out of hand.

It should also be mentioned that it was not Kerry's accounts they disputed, it was the NAVY's official record. Backing the NAVY account over the SBVT, Kerry had the following:

he had 120 pages of naval records - spanning the entire interval with glowing fitness reports - all given to the media and on his web site from April on. That alone should have been enough.

He had every man on his boat for every medal earned 100% behind him. That alone should have been enough.

He had the Nixon administration on tape (that they thought would never be public) saying he was both a genuine war hero and clean, but for political reasons should be destroyed. (SBVT O'Neil was one of those tasked to destroy Kerry in 1971.) That alone should have been enough.

He also was given a plum assignment in Brooklyn as an aide to a rear admiral. From the naval records, this required a higher security clearance - clearly his "employers" of the last 3 years (many SBVT) had to attest to his good character. That's just standard. That alone should have been enough.

The then secretary of the Navy (John Warner) said he personally had reviewed the Silver Star Award. That alone should have been enough.

Compare this list of proof to Carville & Co response on Clinton's Flowers or draft problems - this is far more comprehensive and completely refutes the charges. The Clinton responses in these two instances did not completely refute the charges - in fact, after changing his story a few times in each case - conceding that earlier statements were not completely true - parts of the charges were conceded. The difference was that in 1992 - even in the primary - Clinton was given breaks by a media that wanted him to win. The fact is that we KNEW in those two cases that he was willing to dissemble and scapegoat others when he was called on his actions - two things that later hurt his Presidency.

In any previous election, calmly and professionally countering lies by disproving them would have been the obvious preferred first step. It is only when the facts are not totally in your favor (as with Clinton) that the candidate would try anything different. When this didn't work, Kerry did speak to the issue - and he did so before the Firefighters as soon as it was appear that the attack was beginning to hurt him. Many here - all political junkies didn't here this. Why? The media that gave a huge amount of free time to people they had to know were lying didn't think that it was important to give the Democratic nominees response air time. Now, it was - I think less than 2 minutes long - so there is no excuse.

One other difference is that Clinton's goal in every case was to spike a negative story. In Kerry's case it was far more complicated. Both his actions fighting the war and fighting to end the war are things that he is rightfully proud of. Last December, I went with several DU JK people to a Boston celebration of Kerry's 45 years of service. Near the end, 8 or so of the men who were in Kerry's crew in Vietnam surprised him - it seemed with help from Teresa or others. One of them spoke for the group. It was very clear that they love the guy and it is mutual. For those on the boat when Kerry earned his silver star, he very likely saved their lives. The SBVT attacked not just Kerry, but these men who stood with him - and that included every man - still living - who was with Kerry when he earned any medal.

The really pathetic thing is that the Navy record itself proved the liars to be liars. In addition, it answered many of the smears that Kerry has faced ever since the 1970s. The fitness reports for nearly every time period spoke of the unusual loyalty Kerry engendered from his subordinates. Enough so, that on the frigate he was on before the swiftboats, he was given some additional assignments to help some crew who were having trouble coping with things. Far from an aloof, elitist, it was clear he was a genuinely nice person. The NYT in one article described him as a social loner (which the journalist defended saying that it was her conclusion after speaking with 20 or so life long friends - because as we all know it is consistent that a "social loner" could at 60 have over 20 life long friends), but in Tour of Duty, one friend spoke of how it was Kerry's letters that kept the circle of Yale friends, some fighting and some not, all in contact.

The other thing the Clinton people, who after the loss, blamed Kerry for not hitting this harder, was that in 2004, Clinton was widely reported to have been loudly and publicly arguing that Kerry was speaking of Vietnam too much. Yet, of all the speeches at the convention, other than the minister who had been on Kerry's boat, including even Cleland's, the one who spoke of it the most was BILL CLINTON - with his "send me", that dealt mostly with Vietnam when speaking of Kerry. Good rhetoric, but given Clinton's history, it did not ring true as his real opinion - more useful would have been things Kerry did in the 1990s that helped Clinton. (It might, for instance, have helped if 90% of the credit given to opening Vietnam in Clinton's book were not given to McCain - with Kerry simply listed in the middle of a list of all the vets on KERRY's committee. McCain, in his book, gives Kerry credit for helping him through that time as well as very ablely leading that committee. Consider the book was in edit long after Clinton knew Kerry was the nominee.)

It would seem that Kerry responded more, it would have made it seem the issue was Vietnam - likely first the war record - which Kerry really did win in terms of most people who were winnable anyway. But, then it would have focused on his eloquent, honorable amazingly mature protesting the war. This would have made it even harder to get a message out - something the media was doing their best to keep him from doing as it was.

Imagine if Kerry had the media of 1992. Remember how the negative Bush convention with Buchanan and Marilyn Quayle backfired. Now think of how the media treated the nastier 2004 convention - with purple heart band aids. The 1992 media would have pushed the Republicans to disavow those band aids - and likely apologize to Kerry and all men who earned them. THAT would have ended the SBVT issue. (To add insult to injury, the outrage shown in the media was against Rather's story on Bush - which was likely pretty accurate - even though the document shown was fake - and I assume likely a Rove plant.)
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divvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. But as a candidate, I do not remember him EVER speaking a word about it
As I recall, he did not fight the swift boaters personally. EVER. The news you refer to just seemed to leaked out. I was pretty active in his campaign, and I was really disappointed that he did not fight.

The Chicago Sun did print a story in support of Kerry, but I don't think he had anything to do with that either.

He was doing the "lets be above them" bullshit. That strategy fails every time and we keep revisiting it.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Look at the list I wrote which is not complete
The problem is that the media FAILED to cover the event where he spoke before the Firefighters and addressed it head on - Very succinctly.

In addition, the SBVT attack was a clusterbomb - thousands of charges - even conflicting with each other. There was no way that he could have addressed every made up lie - and if he personally debunked say 10 of the most prominent ones in person (rather than via surrogates), they would be there the next hour with 10 new ones. He actually did reach out to people who were there to get as many lies debunked as possible, but the media that carried the lies often refused to cover the rebuttal even though it was Kerry who the official record backed 100%. Kerry had surrogates out there and they pointed to the official record. He was a war hero awards two very prestigious medals and Nixon wanted to discredit him - and found he was a clean cut guy.

To put it in perspective, imagine that you were up for a promotion at work and a group of people allied with your competitor and they started telling your employer and coworkers that they knew you in college and told stories suggesting you were a lousy student and a really scurrilous individual. Now imagine that you responded by giving the person leading the search for that (the best analog I can get to the media) your full transcript showing excellent grades and various statements from authorities speaking of what a great member of the community you were, but at a communal meeting your input was treated as if it were equal to unvalidated accounts. Then what if your opponent's allies were given much more of a platform than you were.

Compare this to the Clinton 1992 problems. One difference was that Flowers and the draft were genuinely problems. Clinton had to know months ahead what these problems were and to have prepared reactions - and even then his responses did not immediately work. Here, Kerry's record was spotless and he had Navy medals. He was prepared to address the issue of his protesting had it been the issue. (The excellent "Going Up River" puts it in the perspective of the time and the entire hearing existed and he was incredibly impressive at it - in fact a Republican WWII vet uncle of my husband's shocked us in early 2004 by saying he could vote for Kerry if he won the nomination because he read the entire hearing - "he's a good man, I see where he was coming from". )

You say these things just "leaked out." The list of lies in the books was a document given by Kerry to the media. As early in April when the SBVT first appeared, his response was to say in various interviews that he was putting all his (non-medical) records on his web site. It was pretty sickening then in that the Republicans the day it first came up demanded Kerry's records - treating his war record as questionable, when nothing suggested that. Yet there was not a single story anywhere in the media when all the records were put up. I admit that I did not look until someone mentioned them on the K/E blog to end a silly argument some were having over what color eyes he had - by referring to the military records.

Because of wanting to be able to counter the SBVT to anyone who questioned this, I went and looked at them. What is truly sad is that no media outlet thought that reading these then 30 plus year old records, especially the fitness reports was something they should do. The fact is they really showed an exceptional person, who was an excellent, thoughtful caring leader. (It made me understand why Brinkley was so impressed by those records in addition to Kerry's journals, which as a journal, contained his thoughts, not diary like descriptions of anything.)

In addition, his men were out there confirming the official record. The media allowed many to get the impression that all the SBVT served with him - in fact many were not in the same place at the same time. He also had the wonderful Max Cleland out there brilliantly blowing up some of the lies. (I will always remember Cleland challenging a liar who claimed Kerry got wounded on purpose to get out of Vietnam - pointing out just how dumb that was - as any bit of flying metal with a minor change in angle could have killed or maimed him. )
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. He did in a high-profile speech on Aug 19, 2004 to the Firefighters Convention - not one network
would air the speech and few gave it minimal coverage. The report was never added to the normal rotation of news stories. He attacked the lies and the motives of the swiftliars and challenged Bush to debate their services publicly instead of hiding behind the swiftlies.

Gee....a major speech by the Presidential candidate that attacked swiftliars and challenged the president to a public debate on their Vietnam-era service in front of the FIREFIGHTERS CONVENTION, and the news organizations decided it shouldn't get aired and shouldn't get full coverage.

Figure it out.
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divvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. you are right .... I forgot about that n/t
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
18. Don't you know he doesn't have a veto-proof majority?
Edited on Tue Jun-28-11 04:24 AM by woo me with science
:eyes:

(excellent OP - K&R)
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