United Nations: The USA has violated international law

[Bluebear]

The US breached international law when the state of Texas executed a Mexican citizen convicted of raping and killing an American girl, the UN's senior human rights official has said.

Navi Pillay cited "particular legal concerns" whether Humberto Leal Garcia, 38, had access to consular officials and a fair trial.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also said she was "disappointed" that Texas carried out the lethal injection. Leal was executed late on Thursday.

He was not told he could have access to Mexican consular officials, in violation of the Vienna Convention. "US compliance with Vienna convention terms is absolutely critical to ensuring our own consular access and our own ability to protect Americans detained abroad," State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14089246

[WCGreen]

1. Disappointed!

What do these ass holes think will happen when we can't afford to swing our big dick anymore...

[Violet_Crumble]

2. What's new? The US tends to violate international law a fair bit n/t

[hack89]

45. It is not binding domestic law due to a failure of Congress

to pass enabling legislation. They have had 3 years to fix the problem and have not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_v._Texas

[DeSwiss]

89. Dissent

Dissent

Justice Breyer wrote in the dissent that in his view, the ICJ treaty was "self-executing", based on a reading of other treaties that had gone into effect without additional Congressional action; and therefore, he wrote, "I believe the treaty obligations, and hence the judgment , resting as it does upon the consent of the United States to the ICJ's jurisdiction, bind the courts no less than would 'an act of the legislature.'"

One similar example Breyer cited was the 1796 case Ware v. Hylton, which, Breyer wrote, was illustrative of what "the Founders meant when they wrote (in the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution) that 'all Treaties ... shall be the supreme Law of the Land.'" In Ware v. Hylton, the Supreme Court had agreed with a British creditor that a provision of the Treaty of Paris of 1783, which had been ratified by the United States's Congress of the Confederation, overruled a Virginia state law regarding the repayment of debts to Britons; and, as the treaty was "addressed to the Judicial Branch", Congress had not had to enact a domestic law enforcing the treaty provision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_v._Texas#Dissent">link

[hack89]

90. So? Dissent = your side lost.

which means the other side's opinion is law.

[DeSwiss]

92. I don't have a side. n/t

[pampango]

102. Which raises the larger question "Should the US be bound by international law?"

Should progressives work so that international law does apply to the actions of the US? Or should national sovereignty trump the idea that our actions should be subjected to judgment by the international community?

[hack89]

105. The international community is not a progressive community

unless you want Saudi Arabia influencing women's rights, Iran influencing gay rights or China influencing freedom of speech.

There should be nothing automatic about international "law" impacting US domestic law - it has to be a conscious decision by our elected officials. Most importantly, it can never override the Constitution. The Constitution should always trump international law.

[ezgoingrl]

3. Shameful

eom

[dkf]

4. He confessed to raping a 16 year old with a tree branch and bludgeoning her to death.

The involvement of the White House in the case was particularly striking due to the heinous nature of Garcia's crime. He was convicted of bludgeoning 16-year-old Adria Sauceda to death after violating her with a tree branch. Both forensic evidence and witness statements tied Garcia to the crime; in statements to police, he acknowledged fighting with Sauceda and pushing her to the ground, where he said she hit her head.

In the moments before his execution, Garcia confessed to his crimes, adding a final twist to his lengthy legal saga, which had spanned more than 15 years and dozens of appeals and decisions by courts from San Antonio to The Hague. Since his arrest, he had steadfastly denied raping and murdering Sauceda.

"I am sorry for the victim's family for what I had did," he said. "May they forgive me."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/humberto-leal-garcia-executed_n_892762.html

[ohheckyeah]

6. That doesn't change the fact that the U.S.violated

international law.

[dkf]

8. Well I'm sorry but I won't spend too much time weeping over this guy.

[Bluebear]

10. Will you weep when it happens to a US citizen abroad?

[dkf]

14. Heck our guys get life in prison for walking over the border.

Don't we expect to be under the laws of other countries when we visit?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Since mexico does not have life in prison

you are wrong... and mexico complies with this requirement all the time. If I got a buck for every call and form I filled over ten years... I'd have a tidy sum.

[Obamanaut]

80. If they die there due to the crappy conditions under which they are

incarcerated, that is in fact, LIFE.

[Zavulon]

17. If the US citizen does what that guy did, I sure won't. (NT)

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. Not if they sodomize a young girl with a tree branch before bludgeoning her to death.

Not for a moment.

This is a cautionary tale... Do unto others.

[Bluebear]

22. We'll put your vote for cancelling our participation in the Vienna treaty then.

[Obamanaut]

32. Don't kidnap, rape, and murder while travelling, and one should be ok. nt

[WatsonT]

38. Were you of the opinion that this didn't happen before?

Nations that are going to arrest our citizens without cause aren't going to care about this one way or another.

It's like the argument that we should close gitmo because if we don't the terrorists will be mean to american prisoners. We should close it, but that reasoning is absurd. They are going to behead our folks whenever they get a chance regardless of what we do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Alas it happens a lot less than you think

and if I got a dollar for each time we fulfilled this obligation in Mexico... I´d have a tidy sum.

[JackRiddler]

63. Obviously this has nothing to do with "weeping over this guy." With this kind of rhetoric...

who needs the right wing?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

84. Texas just fucked the rest of us...

...and you're worrying about weeping over the guy. THAT IS NOT THE POINT! International law has been violated and we are now fucked. Stop being so narrow minded and look at the bigger picture here. Jeez. You sound like one of those Texas right wing nut jobs.
Of course the guy didn't deserve to breathe air, but we have no choice. We as the united states set a standard for the rest of the world and when we violate international law, all the people abroad are FUCKED when we don't.
Duckie

[ohheckyeah]

91. Not surprising but nobody asked you to weep over him. n/t

[pipoman]

30. They had 15 fucking years to do something about it..

apparently there are a lot of legal people in the US who disagree that it violated any international law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Damn I guess I filled those forms in vain

and made those calls for fun.

[Obamanaut]

82. If you were filling out Geneva Convention forms that you mentioned in other

threads, rather than Vienna Convention, then yes, you filled them out in vain.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. That he was Mexican did not emerge until much later

He was brought illegally into the US as a very young child and believed he was a US citizen for many years.

[WatsonT]

39. If this were about a job, deportation, voting, going to college etc

he would be a proud American and most people on here would defend his right to be treated just like every other American (he didn't choose to be brought here illegally, it's the only nation he's ever known!)


The second there is some benefit to being here illegally however then he becomes a proud citizen of the nation of Mexico! Brought here illegally against his will and he should be treated as the proud foreign national that he is!

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. And the moment US authorities learned of his status

they should have filled a certain form, and made the call... yes it is that simple. It does not mean he was not guilty of the crime... this is how it should work.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. Concur, once it was figured out. There seems to be some fuzz on when that happened.

[TexDevilDog]

34. He could have been a priest raping groups of young boys

but if the government did not do their job, he should be not punished.

/sarc

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. As I told you the other day, treaty obligations have zero to do

with the crime commited.

[Obamanaut]

83. As you also told us the other day, it was the Geneva CoOnvention. Vienna

was not mentioned in your posts.

[dkf]

5. Adria's last hours were godawful. So tragic

Leal said he left the party with Adria around 5 a.m. Officers were called to the dirt road in a nearby field a little more than three hours later, summoned by men from the party, two of whom were believed to have had sex with her earlier. The men had gone looking for her after Leal's brother and sister came to the party and asked what had happened, saying Leal had come home mumbling about killing a girl.

Leal told police Adria began fighting with him in the car, so he stopped in the field. She ran. When he tried to get her back in the car, she scratched his face. He pushed her and she fell and hit her head. He got scared and left, he said.

Cindy Sauceda collects stories about the case in a large three-ring binder. The crime often is described as "gruesome."

Photos of the scene — of Adria's naked body, bloodied and bruised, her face crushed, the stick used to assault her still protruding — were admitted into evidence against objections by Leal's attorney, who called them inflammatory.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Long-silent-familyof-victim-speaks-1450802.php#page-2

[Bluebear]

7. Nothing brings you out like a story about Mexicans, does it?

This is not about the crime, this is about a treaty to which we are a signatory.

[dkf]

11. She was probably Mexican too.

Actually it has to do with being a female and not wanting people like this walking the streets.

[Bluebear]

13. Yes, the United Nations clearly called for his release in the story.

Waste of time, later.

[dkf]

16. What were they calling for? A retrial? Or release?

What was the remedy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Acess to consular authorities for at the very least health and welfare checks

like the ones the US COnsular officers engage in places like the Federal Prison in Mexicali... hard to understand, isn't it? Yes virginia there are US citizens serving time in prison in Mexico.

OH I should clarify for those who do not get it. Prisoners in any prison are to be treated to the national standard, not better or worst. And that is what those checks are. IN places like oh Japan, that includes getting food for saith prisoner, since Japanese prisons do not do that.

Oh and our prisons are not that well run either.

[seabeyond]

54. are you suggesting mexican prisons are examples of how foriegners should be treated

in prison? decades of stories about the mexican prisons. a lifetime living in bordering states. lol. i have never heard the argument that the mexican prisons should teach u.s. how to treat prisoners.

[dkf]

59. Stupid of them to commit crimes in Mexico. Crazy in fact.

If they were running drugs or guns they deserve it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. It does not matter

There is a reason for international law...silly

Should the us pull out of the world community.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Treaty obligations have zero to do with the conviction

this is so hard to understand, isn't it? Falls into walking and chewing gum at the same time.

[dkf]

62. Well like I said before..

I'm not losing sleep over this guy. And to me if Mexico gets stuck with the bill for providing a defense for all their people then good. I have no problem with that either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. I guess you do not travel abroad

and that is the problem. For international law to work at ideal levels, there is this concept of reciprocity. How long until OTHER states do not inform the US when American citizens are charged?

It is not about THIS guy... it is short sighted.

[Mimosa]

86. She was hispanic.

Adria Sauceda was her name. Here is more about her:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Long-silent-familyof-victim-speaks-1450802.php#page-2

No sympathy should be wasted on those who raped her or the scum who murdered her.

IMO th only problem with having executed the scum who killed her is that criminals born there will return and they won't extradite them for trial.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. They will after they negotiate, as they usually do, that the capital case

be tried as a life in prison case... hell, it is written in black and white in the extradition treaty. Mexico, and OTHER states without the death penalty will NOT extradite anybody to the US if they face a capital case. It does not matter if they are nationals of that country or the United States.

What other states will not? Well backwards states like the Eureopean Union Member states... you know third world nations...

The same goes for Brazil, for example.

I do not expect people to be interested in these arcane matters, generally speaking. But what this affects is the glue of International Law, the principle of reciprocity.

[lbrtbell]

9. This is a direct consequence

Of laws prohibiting police from asking if someone is an American citizen or foreign national.

How are the cops supposed to know a suspect isn't an American, and that he has the right to speak to his country's consulate, if they can't ask whether he's a citizen of this country or another country?

This is something that needs to be brought to the public's attention. It's not "racist" to ask this question, which would have prevented something like this from happening.

Congratulations, PC Police. We've violated the Vienna Convention, thanks to your stupidity.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. What it "sounds like" is irrelevent.

If authorities are not allowed to ask if a person is a citizen or not, how are they to know to allow them to confer with the consulate of their own country?

[ZombieHorde]

23. I imagine his nationality was discovered during the trial or sooner. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Has zero to do

and by the by... my local cops get training in both the form and the convention at the academy... why is that?

[Tx4obama]

15. Mark this on your calendar, because you'll probably never hear it again

I apologize for unrec'ing your OP.

I accidentally hit unrec and meant to click on rec :)

[pinboy3niner]

21. Rec'd. nt

[joshcryer]

28. Gave it another, at 4+.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. UNLESS you are arrested abroad... and you are denied

access to the US Department of State.

[Obamanaut]

66. If, while in another country, a US citizen kidnaps, rapes, and murders

a teenage girl, I would recommend the US Department of State turn its back on that US citizen.

If a US citizen kidnaps, rapes, and murders a teenage girl while in the US, he should be sentenced to the same penalty he imposed on that victim. The same EXACT penalty.

[Tx4obama]

18. Even Obama tried to get a stay and Perry shot his middle finger to everyone

Obama tries to stop execution in Texas of Mexican killer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/05/obama-stop-texas-mexican-execution

[hootinholler]

35. The Supremes are the authority that could have stopped this.

They did not grant the stay.

They are responsible.

Wouldn't it be fun to have 5 of our justices in prison?

Good Times.

-Hoot

[hack89]

42. It was none of Obama's business

the guy got a fair trial in Texas.

[Obamanaut]

67. Good for Perry. nt

[Hosnon]

24. But not domestic law. There's a difference.

Meaningful? Perhaps not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Supremacy Clause

and treaties signed and ratified have the force of US law, just the constitution... yes the supremes messed up

[Hosnon]

88. Yes, they do. But not all treaties are the same.

At least with regard to our domestic law. We make a distinction between self-executing and non-self-executing treaties which international law does not.

Therefore, the SCOTUS can abide by U.S. domestic law while at the same time violating international law (which is what happened here).

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. And why our domestic politics, what this is about,

Will byte Americans abroad...short sighted to say the least.

Also Vienna and Geneva did.

[hack89]

106. If they are not self executing Congress is required to pass enabling legislation

they fail to do that in this case.

[JackRiddler]

64. Ratified treaties are law of the land (unless courts rule otherwise, which is true of all law).

[Hosnon]

87. They are. But our domestic law makes a distinction between self-executing

treaties and non-self-executing treaties.

As this was a non-self-executing treaty, its non-application can be both legal with regard to domestic law and illegal with regard to international law.

[stuckinarut]

25. No worries, International Law

never applies to US actions anyways...because we use our "informal" powers to ignore the rest of the world..!


Hooray! for the rogue criminal State...literally.

[Azathoth]

26. self-delete

[joshcryer]

27. SCOTUS is to blame and this is why we need more dissenters.

[hack89]

43. No - Congress is to blame

for failing to enact enabling legislation that made this treaty binding domestic law. This is old issue - it was decided 3 years ago by the Supreme Court.

[joshcryer]

93. Wasn't aware of that, thanks for informing me.

[MrDiaz]

29. Who Cares

This disgusting human being got exactly what he deserves, no wait scratch that. He should of been raped by a tree branch first. If Perry broke the law, good get his dumb-ass out of office, but I'm actually glad he made this decision.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Don't travel abroad

[AtomicKitten]

109. I care.

[Obamanaut]

31. Was Humberto Leal in the US legally? If not, he had an opportunity

to return to his country of origin after he reached adulthood. Did he do so?

Did he wait until AFTER he was convicted of kidnapping, raping, and bludgeoning to death a teen age girl to seek help from that country of origin?

The death penalty should have been enacted in exactly the same way that he imposed it on the young girl. Rape with a stick and bludgeoned to death. Now, that's justice.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. He was here illegally but did not know that until after much of this had occured

[Mudoria]

33. Should have given him access to a Consular official...

then executed him.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solly Mack]

41. K&R

[Taitertots]

44. I don't care where he was born, anyone who does that deserves worse than he got

[Obamanaut]

69. I think he should have had the same penalty his victim got - exactly the same. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Amazing, same point I made about access to consular officers

oh never mind... to some fuck it, we really should not be part of the world community...

[Cleita]

61. It was Texas that violated it, not the whole USA. The

President of the USA and others tried to stop it. It seems our AG should investigate and prosecute if necessary those Texans in violation of international law.

[JTFrog]

65. +1 n/t

[Rex]

68. RICK PERRY - they can find him at the states capitol or whoring

in a church for donation money. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!! Make it so!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. There is a hole in US law when it comes to international treaties and the states

If the Federal legislature or Courts have not recognized it/implemented it etc, the states are not bound by it. There is no Federal mandate nor are their penalties for not allowing consular visits. Also remember that his Mexican nationality was not known at first

[Zax2me]

70. Fuck the UN then

Hell, if were a rich American boy going down to Mexico and doing this, they would be calling FOR the execution.
They act like little bush is still our President.
Good grief, the number of people that come out of the woodwork not for girls/women when they are raped beaten and murdered, but afterwards to plea in the rapists capital punishment defense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. No, there is no death penalty in Mexico

and there is a form that the cops would have filled, because they do... and either they would have gotten a call at the Consulate from the duty officer at the State Police or Federal Police, depending on jurisdiction... or DC would have gotten a diplomatic cable... or most likely both.

This is what happens under treaty law.

By the way Mexico does not even have life in prison.

Chances are, assuming he was given the max... this US citizen would have been part of a prisoner exchange where we sent their citizens to serve their time, and the other way around.

But you are right, fuck international law.

:sarcasm:

USA, USA, USA!

[Obamanaut]

77. Well then, it is good he stayed in Texas with Gov Perry, where justice could be served.

Well sorta. I would have wished he had sufferend the same death as he imposed upon his victim. EXACTLY the same.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. Actually this has nothing to do with the UN proper

When considering the circumstances, I think that Mexico doth protest too much. However the agreed upon procedures should have been followed. I doubt it would have any impact on the events.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Health and welfare checks and an amicus brief

That's the extent. Problem is what other national of insert country here is next? Mexico is protesting due to the reciprocity principle.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

104. They also oppose the death penalty and are complaining about that too

I have read the claims by the law prof they hired that there would have never been a conviction if the process has been followed. She is clearly wrong

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. That is where the amicus brief comes in

It is not in the Mexiab Legal code. Every government that does not have it will loby those who do.

[Obamanaut]

71. Who here would be complaining about an alleged international law

violation if it had been YOUR daughter who was kidnapped, raped, and bludgeoned to death - with the stick left in the poor child?

All the parents have left are some photos, and the memory of that atrocity perpetrated upon their daughter.

Humberto Leal Garcia got off light, IMO. I would have sentenced him to exactly the same death as he gave his victim. EXACTLY!

[emilyg]

76. I'm not crying for him. Some people are evil.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. Following the treaties once his status was known would not have impacted the outcome

Nothing in the treaties would have changed the course that things went. Time line perhaps, some inconvenience at the jail/prison, but that would have been the worst of it.

[COLGATE4]

111. You insist on keeping missing the point. There is no question that

he deserved the punishment he received. But that should have been after a trial where his rights were preserved. His right for access to his Consulate was violated, and the fact that we chose to stomp on that right as some kind of an 'unnecessary courtesy' puts any American detained abroad in jeopardy. What about that is so hard to understand?

[Harmony Blue]

112. Exactly

This is a blackeye for us Americans currently, and puts future Americans abroad in danger where their rights can be potentially violated.

[Mimosa]

81. Too many immigrants have raped and killed. No tears here.

BUT the bad thing on this one is that an execution probably will stop Mexico from extraditing criminals in the future.

This violant rape/murder was done to a nice woman I knew when I lived in New Orleans. It was right after Katrina and was traumatic for many in the neighbourhood. :(

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/10/man_accused_in_lafreniere_rape.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Capital cases are not extradited

Not just Mexico.

Countries that don't have a death penalty don't and it is written into treaties. Usually there is a lot of negotiation and capital cases are pursued as life.

[saras]

85. How does a Democrat argue, with a straight face, "he was bad. I don't care about the law."???

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Eye for an eye, we are truly a sick society.

[pampango]

99. I was going to say that at least we're not blood-thirsty, vengeful republicans, but sometimes

it's hard to tell the difference.

I suppose there are blood-thirsty, vengeful folks in Europe too (they do have a right wing), but thankfully those folks don't make the laws regarding the death penalty over there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. I know, someday we might evolve

[hack89]

107. But the law is clear and Perry did nothing wrong

the Supreme Court ruled three years ago that without enabling legislation from Congress, this particular treaty is no binding domestic law. Congress has had three years to pass such legislation and has not.

This is not the first time this issue has come up.

[RainDog]

101. arrest Perry!

ha! oh, how I would LOVE to see that.

Texas competes with Saudi Arabia in many ways - the religious bullshit is strong in both cultures and leads to heinous crimes by the state.

[hack89]

113. The Supreme Court has said he broke no law.

do you want to compete with Saudi Arabia and arrest people for no reason?

[Long Shadow]

103. Garcia violated US law and US law trumps international law.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

110. ? And this was the first time? Has the UN ever heard of George Bush? n/t