As the budget crisis debate on DU crescendoes...

[Flubadubya]

and the differences in individual DU-ers' opinions and political philosophies shine in stark, polar contrast, I believe one thing is for certain:

Answers to all the questions that have given rise to the opposing factions regarding where our President stands on this issue are all going to soon be revealed.

The hand that President Obama plays in this crisis will forever define his presidency and will also pretty much determine the outcome of the 2012 Presidential election.

Maybe then one side or the other will have to "tone down the rhetoric" and abandon some of it's "sacred cows" about the man... and although I cannot fully trust the President and his intentions at this point, for the sake of the country, I hope my misgivings are ultimately proven to be wrong. :dilemma:

[mr clean]

1. K&R

[robinlynne]

2. This debate is happening all across the world, not just on DU. It is a debate

about heavy handed class warfare. An excess of corporate greed which makes democracy virtually impossible. This is the real deal, and people are going to die because of it. a lot of people. This is not about sacred cows at all.

[Flubadubya]

6. I don't disagree with you at all...

the matter is deadly serious.

I was simply trying to limit the premise of my post to how the matter is perceived by DU'ers with respect to where the President will come down on it. I know it is much more far reaching in its implications. Thus all the extreme rancor and polarization amongst us posters on this forum.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. You're right. I think what's happened is that we've had right wing influence since the 80s

Even during Democratic presidents, and our country has sustained too much damage.

Friends of mine from Europe that visit are amazed at the deterioration of everything in this country since this right wing influence.

Some Dems are frustrated beyond belief, and particularly in these past decades when Democrat politicians have been more subdued and helpless than ever.

That's when the frustration starts and mistakes are made.

The biggest mistake Democrats made in frustration was support Nader. That's a mistake we won't recover from in decades, since GW Bush did so much damage to our country, and that won't be fixable for a long time.

We all need to take a deep breath and get energetic. Our enemy is these fascist a-hs, and not behind are the churches that have propelled them.

Time to do something intelligent, and supporting a-hs that only result in electing a right wing fascist pig like GW Bush, is not something intelligent. :toast:

[robinlynne]

4. umm. nadre had nothing to do with George Bush taking power. Did you watch the Supreme Court?

It was all televised. It was unbelievable.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. In a TIGHT race, in which churches were sheeped to the polls, Nader threw off the balance

And it went to the Supreme Court.

[mr clean]

8. AND Diebold was in Bush's hip pocket...why does everyone seem to forget about that?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. In a TIGHT RACE, Democrats have NO BUSINESS making it tighter....

by voting for someone who will not be elected anyway.

Which is why I say that we need to push our own candidates any way we can, but STOP sabotaging ourselves.

Voting for Nader was sabotage.

[robinlynne]

12. believing that is sabotage. It is simply not what happened.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. I'm not going to repeat the same thing again, but I will say this...

You can put on blinders all you want, and it will not change the fact that you committed an act of sabotage by voting for Nader.

[robinlynne]

18. Honey, I did not vote for Nader.

[flamingdem]

13. +100 we have to stay united no matter what

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. No matter what! But we MUST NOT SIT pretty if Obama is not doing the right thing. nt

[flamingdem]

20. agree. Feet to the fire as he said nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. I'm with you 100%. nt

[Marr]

30. Are you?

You're also arguing that failing to vote for the Democrat, no matter what his policies are, is inexcusable. Pardon me for putting it so bluntly, but why would any politician give a shit about your opinion when you're pledged to hand them your vote no matter what? What means do you use in "holding their feet to the fire", exactly? Cute parades with ironic signs? Witty blog posts? Biting sarcasm?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Perhaps I haven't been clear. The #1 goal in this is to make damned sure NO REPUBLICANS ARE ELECTED

I hope that was clear.

That means, no voting for Naders or Greenies, or other shit that will spoil the election and get another Repig voted in.

That said, I'm all for storming Washington D.C. and demanding the Democrat in the WH behave accordingly.

[robinlynne]

11. just not true. The election was stolen, plain and simple. Gore won Florida

by every possible way of counting the votes. the U of Chicago did a study with over 50 scenarios. Gore won them all. Nader did not steal his votes. the Supreme Court did. It went to the Supreme in order to steal it, not because it should have. It was given to gore, twice. On election night and by the Florida Supreme Court.
nader had NOTHING to do with it. It is important for people to be aware of this, because it is happening over and over and over again. the votes cast are not the votes counted. Stolen elections are now the absolute norm in this country. Our votes are counted by a private corporation with right wing christian ownership.

the only reason Obama is in the presidency is because they did not steal enough votes that time. Do you really believe Obama only won by 2%, as the official stats say?
Probably more like 25 to 30% in reality.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Voting for Nader was sabotage. In fact, I believe some of the 'Dems' voting for Nader were not real

I think they were Repuke plants.

[Hydra]

25. I suggest abandoning that Meme

Considering all of the facts refute it, and one of the most prolific and destructive RW trolls ever to be on DU used it as his battle flag.

Nader isn't the problem, the system IS. We aren't able to elect someone who will help us. End of story.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. And I suggest that those who don't learn from their mistakes, are bound to repeat them.

We won't go down this dumb road again, believe me. Nader is horrific history, and that is now his legacy, as we fight our way out of the disasters left by the man he helped elect, GW Bush

[Hydra]

41. GW Bush was never elected

Gore was elected, and then pushed aside in favor of what people in higher places wanted.

Now, they don't even have to do that. They have a Dem who is doing their work for them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. If it hadn't been a tight race, and Nader hadn't run, there would've been no SC needed

We're now living the after-effects of so much damage done by that pig, GW Bush, that Nader was happy was elected because it would 'hurt' the Democrats.

[Flubadubya]

19. Everything you say here is absolutely correct...

In fact, it just blew my mind when, after it was determined that Gore actually did win the election by the vote count, the meme remained set in concrete that Gore "lost" the election. This is still the consensus view of most of the country, and I even saw it being perpetuated right here on DU.

Just because Bush set up residency in the White House does not in any way mean he "won the election". It was, indeed, stolen for him by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Also, after this theft was so brazenly and openly accomplished without consequences to the perpetrators I'm sure it set stealing elections in this country as the "absolute norm" as you astutely put it.

Why not? It was the coup d'état nonpareil. :grr:

[Hydra]

26. Given the blessing of legitimacy by this Administration

Funny how that worked, huh?

[robinlynne]

35. Yes, I remember historians all saying how important it was that Bush and

Cheney et al be tried for their crimes. If not, they said at the time, the crimes would continue. As they do.

[mr clean]

22. "Our votes are counted by a private corporation with right wing christian ownership"

Thanks to Bush... Our votes are counted by a private AND foreign corporation's with right wing christian ownership.

[robinlynne]

17. It didn't "go to the Supreme COurt". the right wing Supreme Court overthrew the rule

of law. The law said the intent of the voters was to count. that was upheld by the Florida Supreme Court. the Supreme Court was only brought in by the GOp because it was a right wing court, willing overturn the law. if law had anything to do with it, votes would have been recounted, or even counted in the first place. It was a bloodless coup.

[Ozymanithrax]

7. The debate isn't about the man....

It is about what is right and who should sacrifice. But it will determine the 2012 eleciton ... in the White House, the Senate, and the House.

[Flubadubya]

9. Obviously, no argument there from me...

The debate is not about the man, but the furious "dust up" between DU'ers has mostly been about him, for sure.

I'm just trying to limit the scope of this to the arguments between DU members that are flying like bullets and, yes, Obama is most certainly the focus of the furor here.

[SidDithers]

23. I doubt it...

Like every other prediction of impending doom that DU has been up in arms about, this one too shall pass.

And then some other hair-on-fire critical issue will crop up and it'll start all over again.

Sid

[Flubadubya]

24. All I'm saying is that we will know one way or the other...

where President Obama really stands on the issue of making cuts to SS and/or Medicare. He will either offer it up as the sacrificial lamb to the Republicans or he will stand firm for the sake of the people and not allow it to be touched.

Either way, he will show his hand and then we will know whether we are headed for "impending doom" or not.

[Marr]

27. There is no meaningful ideological divide here on the economy.

There are people who espouse the traditionally liberal, Keynesian view of the economy, and there are fans of Barack Obama, who simply support whatever he says that day.

[Flubadubya]

29. I do see your point...

and thanks for the input. I have read your posts and am in accord with most of them. And yes, it does seem the BO fans play "follow the leader" with fanatical glee.

[Hydra]

28. IMO, we've already passed that point

This Administration defined itself in terms we never would have accepted from a Republican Administration.

We passed the event horizon at the very least with the Gulf oil spill, as a result of 'drill baby drill," which many of us here protested against.

All that's left are the people who are still in the first stage of grief: denial. I'm somewhere between depression and acceptance.

[Flubadubya]

32. You're very much right and to the point about the run-up to this...

The signs and symptoms have certainly been there all along but I suppose I just want to hold out that faintest of hopes that our Democratic President, deep down inside, is on the people's side.

For all the evidence to the contrary, I guess I still want to believe that he has the common man's best interest at heart. I do believe his stance on the debt crisis will be indisputable proof, nonetheless.

[Hydra]

33. You should be right that this won't be arguable

But I think my point was that destroying the Gulf and acting like it was Katrina in New Orleans again(complete with "pray, everyone!) should have been one of those moments.

Not investigating the war crimes, torture, and spying should have been another of them. Continuing those items and making them "legal" should once again have been one of those points.

My prediction? The slashes will come, and the denial will still be there. We can always blame the Repubs(who could NEVER have pulled this off themselves), or the Liberal Left, or Nader, or...someone. I've seen all of it in the Forums today.

They could just appoint David Rockefeller Emperor of all America, and someone would say it was a good move for democracy.

That's how far down the rabbit hole we are.

[gkhouston]

31. Oh, I expect it will get a whole lot uglier first, as attempts to

impose groupthink are made. I suspect Skinner will have to pull the car over at least once before all is said and done. :crazy:

[Hydra]

34. God, I feel for Skinner

This was so much easier when it was Bush...I almost wish I'd never found out how much of it was simply BECAUSE it was an (R) and not a (D) at the time.

[pipi_k]

38. Hahahahahah....sorry....

Just remembering my mom when I was a kid...

"Don't make me stop this car and come back there!!!!!"

:7

[gkhouston]

40. It's okay, that's exactly what I was alluding to.

:hi:

[Renew Deal]

39. Your post reminds me of this Daily Show video

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-5-2011/definitely--maybe

[philly_bob]

43. The "Obama's sold out" rhetoric on DU is premature. Wait till we hear result. (nt)