I'm reserving judgment on Obama until I see "Teh Deal" and what is passed and signed

[jpak]

There is a lot of high stakes poker being played here - both sides will bluster and bluff and posture for advantage. Until I see the finished product - I ain't gonna ring my hands about this.

Oh yeah - the GOP ain't got nothin' but hostage taking BS on the debt ceiling. If they crash the economy to save billionaire tax cuts and destroy Medicare they will be the minority party for the next generation.

They are on the wrong side of the People.

just sayin'

yup

[Kingofalldems]

1. Seconded

[PoliticAverse]

2. Reasonable. n/t

[cliffordu]

3. Thirded. Every time the Panic Peeps jump up and down and scream

bloody murder at the Next Big Fuckup of the Prez, I KNOW waiting until I see the product is the best thing to do.

[boston bean]

4. you typed something similar to this saying Obama wasn't agains the PO, right? nt

[cliffordu]

8. Not me. Well....

I dunno, really.

maybe.

I drink, so my mileage may vary.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

5. None of us have any choice but to wait and see what transpires.

Of course we should all contact the WH and our Representatives and make our concerns heard. Still, in the end we're all in a holding pattern after that until we see what we're dealt.

[jpak]

7. We need to make our voices heard

loud and clear

yup

[woo me with science]

48. And that is exactly the plan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1467681

[Rex]

6. We have no say in what he does, therefore waiting is all we can do.

Hopefully golf will be postponed for this slightly more important matter.

[Cleita]

9. I agree we should, but after that time, if we don't

like what he signed, we should make all hell break lose.

[leveymg]

10. Disagree. Now's the time to scream bloody murder, before it's a Done Raw Deal.

Your point, while well-intended, is just another variation on the 11th Dimensional Chess. Obama is playing poker, and has lost almost every hand so far, and his chips are almost gone. Now, he has the mortgage and the old age pension on the table. You do what you like - but, I will not be quiet about this.

Every time he sits down at the table, it just gets worse.

[jpak]

18. By all means scream bloody murder to yer reps

but I'm not going to expect the worst from Obama

yet

[bananas]

11. If we don't raise hell, they'll think nobody cares. nt

[Hydra]

58. Bingo!

And the people trying to smother the response? Damage control.

[Danger Mouse]

12. I don't really think it matters what we do...

PO doesn't listen to the left.

[jpak]

21. PO - Pissed Off?

:shrug:

:hi:

[TBF]

13. Sure, wait until it is passed and signed before reading anything that affects you - that's

definitely the reasonable thing to do.

:eyes:

BTW, I got this bridge for sale in the middle of Texas ...

[leveymg]

14. Self-delete. Technical glitch

[Bluenorthwest]

15. Yeah, apathy is the Third Way, right?

nt

[jpak]

19. Not apathy - just not Chicken Little

n/t

[markpkessinger]

16. Wait until it's a done deal ... yeah, that's the ticket

NOT!!

[jpak]

20. What's a Done Deal?

Nothing yet

yup

[markpkessinger]

23. If you wait until an agreement is reached, it will be too late to effect any major changes to it n/t

[jpak]

29. Untill we know the specifics - there isn't anything to oppose

right?

[Marr]

33. So if you pull up in your driveway and see someone inside robbing your house,

you hold back your anger until you know exactly what they stole?

Medicare and Social Security are on the table in these "negotiations", while many assumed they were not. That in itself is deserving of outrage. You don't need to know the specific percentages.

[jpak]

34. Specifics please: are lifting the SS income cap and negotiating Medicare prescription drug purchases

on the table - or do you "just know" that Obama is giving these away and will cut benefits to existing Medicare and SS recipients?

:shrug:

[Marr]

37. "It is hard to persuade people to do hard stuff that entails trimming benefits."

"But that is what compromise entails."

That's what Obama said today. That's obviously not about raising the cap, or handling Medicare prescription drug negotiations.

[jpak]

40. Benefits for what program?

Oh yeah - I watched the presser....

:D

[Marr]

52. It's this sort of intentional obtuseness that makes me

avoid discussing things with the president's most devoted defenders on this board. Too often, there's no sincerity or honest discussion to be had-- only lawyerly parcing of words and sophistry.

You understood his meaning perfectly, I'm sure.

[jpak]

53. Since you "know" the preordained details of "Teh Deal" please enlighten us

what are they?

:shrug:

[Marr]

54. That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

I just finished telling you the details aren't needed; that simply putting Social Security and Medicare on the table warrant a public outcry.

You responded by saying that I don't know the president isn't negotiating for increased benefits under those programs, and I offered a quote from today that makes it clear he is not doing so, but seeking to "trim benefits".

And after a casual shot at the "we cannot know what programs he was talking about" line, we're back to square one, with you asserting there's nothing to be angry about since we don't know the specifics.

How about this? I'll just put a "GOTO 10" here, and leave it at that.

GOTO 10

[jpak]

55. Sorry - I'm not buying into the Chicken Little GOTO 10 Frenzy

nope

[JuniperLea]

17. Me too... as always...

I save my rants for Obama's website and writing to my Congresscritters.

Spewing hateful rhetoric preemtively has become a sport around here, and I refuse to play that ridiculous game.

He wants to, he plans on, he means to, he is going to... rarely do we see these things pan out... but that doesn't keep some from pulling out the old crystal ball!

:banghead:

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Want poker? Here's poker. Demand a SIMPLE UP OR DOWN VOTE on raising the debt ceiling.

They vote "no", they can be responsible for the consequences.

[bigwillq]

24. Good post.

K and R :thumbsup:

[MouseFitzgerald]

25. Stop giving Obama a pass

[jpak]

43. FYI - it's not just Obama - the entire Democratic Leadership is working on this

sorry to burst yer bubble

yup

[woo me with science]

26. I'm sure they will let us know what they've decided when we hit the deadline

for the debt ceiling. :nuke:

[blkmusclmachine]

27. That's fine. You're entitled to your own opinion.

But facts speak that many have lost faith in the WH to do the Democratic thing. Too many betrayals to core Democratic Principles by this WH. We see, and we remember.

Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us.

[jpak]

30. and U 2

yup

[derby378]

47. Hole in freakin' one

:hi:

[Marr]

28. And when they pass a bad deal, will you say we have no right to complain, since we didn't "speak up"

when it mattered? Or urge us to just grow up and move on, since the matter has been decided?

What's with all the urges lately to shut-up and wait? First it was 'wait until we hear something from the President' and now it's 'wait until he's passed a deal'.

[Fire1]

31. Sounds pragmatic to me! The voice of reason. So few. n/t

[tcaudilllg]

46. I'm the voice of reason. I'm the one with the answers.

You should listen to me.

[Fire1]

49. Riiiiiight. n/t

[Ragnarok]

32. So you are saying...

...that we need to let them pass it (whatever it ends up being) so that we can see what's in it (after the fact). That seems unwise after the last deal a few months back. Too much transparency? Wow.

[jpak]

45. Transparency will be revealed with "Teh Deal" and Boner has blinked once already

transparently

yup

[lame54]

35. and then you will spring into action

[bhikkhu]

36. Glad to rec a sensible position

I trust Obama to do the right thing, or the best thing possible, based on his past successes in negotiation.

There was no end to the hair-on-fire worry here at the recent budget bill, where he performed beyond expectations, and the set of bills he pushed through congress at the end of the last session was impressive as well.

I think he his good intentions and capability and intelligence are all on record, and I trust him to do well, in spite of difficult circumstances.

[FLyellowdog]

50. Me too. nt

[saras]

38. It ain't the only deal going down. The tone set by it affects other negotiations.

[SidDithers]

39. Sorry, this is DU. You must be in full outrage mode at all times...

And if there's nothing to be outraged about, make something up.

Sid

[JuniperLea]

41. I blame Obama...

For not coming to DU personally and kicking some ass.

[SidDithers]

44. And he should have stuck Boehner in the eye with a spork too...nt

Sid

[FLyellowdog]

51. And taking names!

[tcaudilllg]

42. Then you'll be too late.

Forget Obama and concentrate on helping the Dems win the house. He'll more than likely be defeated in the primaries next year, particularly if the Republicans hand us Bachmann. (anybody could beat her!)

[Horse with no Name]

56. ahhh game change

Poker now...what happened to the chess?

[riderinthestorm]

57. It's a fact that this Admin is putting out trial balloons. Their purpose is to see if we shout

about them.

So some vehemence is expected and required to maneuver this president (who has said we have to "make" him do stuff). We can't just sit and wait for a final deal before we pass judgement. Some of the items out there are out there because the President is watching to see how we react.

That said, while I can and do react to the trial balloons, I am reserving judgement on what the final package contains before I write Obama off as lost.

There's a part of me that believes the President is actually trying to push the Rethugs by proposing scary shit that even the Rethugs know will slam them (like touching SS and Medicare) and tying them to tax hikes on the corporations and rich. Obama's signature move: to appear to be malleable and conciliatory while pushing them into corners they don't want to be pushed into. In Obama's mind obviously he believes this approach works in the minds of most Americans and that he comes off looking good and conciliatory....

Obviously for us on the left, he comes across as a sell out. Also, we believe he never should have tied anything to the debt ceiling talks so his premise is all wrong at the start.

Regardless, while I will yell to my reps and to the WH about the trial balloons, Obama gets the benefit of the doubt from me until the deal is done. THEN I will have enough information to make a final decision about his motives and actions.

[ZombieHorde]

59. "If they crash the economy to save billionaire tax cuts and destroy Medicare.."

"If they crash the economy to save billionaire tax cuts and destroy Medicare they will be the minority party for the next generation."

Your opinion of Americans is much higher than mine. I think Hardcore Dems will vote Dem, harcore Reps will vote Rep, a handful will vote third party, many won't vote at all, and the rest will vote based on semi-witty jokes and TV slogans.