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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 10:58 AM
Original message
Check out this Insurrection Timeline of political/gun related events
over the past two years. It's pretty jaw dropping to see all this in one place:

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline

On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court embraced the National Rifle Association's contention that the Second Amendment provides individuals with the right to take violent action against our government should it become "tyrannical." The following timeline catalogues incidents of insurrectionist violence (or the promotion of such violence) that have occurred since that decision was issued:

July 27, 2008—Jim Adkisson shoots and kills two people at a progressive church in Knoxville, Tennessee, wounding two. Adkisson calls it “a symbolic killing” because he really “wanted to kill…every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book,” but was unable to gain access to them.

...

December 9, 2008—FBI teams investigating the murder of white supremacist James Cumming, 29, a resident of Belfast, Maine, find supplies for a crude radiological dispersal dervice and other explosives in his home. Cumming's wife, who shot him to death after being abused by him repeatedly, explains, "His intentions were to construct a dirty bomb and take it to Washington to kill President Obama. He was planning to hide it in the undercarriage of our moter home."

February 5, 2009—FOX commentator Glenn Beck hosts an hour-long special on Fox called “We Surround Them,” a “grassroots effort to wake up our Nation's leaders and let them know what many, if not most, Americans truly believe in and stand for.”

February 20, 2009—FOX commentator Glenn Beck hosts a program that games a 2014 civil war scenario called “The Bubba Effect.” It involves citizen militias in the South and West taking up arms against the U.S. government.


That was just the first six months since the SCOTUS decision, and only a few weeks into Obama's election. Much more jaw-dropping connections between political violence and media inciting violence continue on the website's timeline. Most of them were covered on DU as isolated incidents, and we have seen the patters and connections here, but discussing each individual incident doesn't have the same impact as putting them all together like this.

We've got the media raising the possibility of violence, and supporting the militia groups' right to fight Tyranny. Beck doesn't seem to be doing anything that the SCOTUS hasn't backed up in its NRA-sponsored majority decision. That's not to excuse Beckkk, as much as it is to shine a light on the role Scalia and co. are playing in this. They're giving people permission and reasons to commit violence.

Then we have the militia groups and individuals who see "tyranny" in every decision Democrats make. They're armed and they're open about their intentions. So they have the means. Beck & Co. gives them the motive. All they need is an opportunity.

It should be no surprise there are people within this group who are more inclined than others to use violence. It's like getting a new chainsaw, keeping it in your garage and looking for a reason to use it. They're targeting places close to them that are symbolic of whatever "tyranny" they're imagining. There is real tyranny around us, and I think we all feel it from time to time on various frustrating levels. The feelings may be justified, but naming the source can be quite difficult and easily misdirected. When these feelings boil over, some are going to find an opportunity to use the Second Amendment remedies they're reserved for themselves. The people who commit these acts of violence have all done it in their own communities. Their targets are security guards, doctors, police officers, low-level public servants - just regular people doing their jobs. This to me is cause for a serious response to this wave of violence. There are people who may see you and me as the enemy for what we say and do, but also what we may symbolize to them. Innocent people are dying, and they must no longer treat these as isolated incidents.

In each resulting incident, we never see the perpetrator outright say "Glenn Beck told me to do shoot so-and-so." That's because the Becks and Palins do two things: They'll encourage violent acts against unspecified tyranny, and they'll name people who are "tyrants", but they'll never do both of those things together. They deliberately use vague, undefined words like "tyranny" "terrorism" "socialism" to name the symbolic enemy to fight. I used to think they were misusing these terms because they were careless with their words. I now realize these words are very deliberately left undefined, so the people receiving them can fill in the blanks however they see fit, and they always have the "Constitution" (aka the Second Amendment) to justify their intentions.

The Glenn Becks, Chuck Norrises, and Sarah Palins are slick. They're never going to be directly connected to inciting specific acts of violence like Hal Turner has done. But their rhetoric is creating an environment that allows these things to happen and be quickly forgotten afterward as long as we treat them as isolated incidents. Blood is on their hands - and they know it. This is what they're trying to do - call it "tyranny", then give their followers permission to resolve it on their own terms.

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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Would they have happened without the SCOTUS decision or would there have been more?
You do not have cause and effect here. Not even close. You are also characterizing the SCOTUS decision
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm not trying to establish cause and effect
Edited on Sun Jan-09-11 11:06 AM by rucky
on a 1:1 level. I'm trying to show that you can't establish the type of cause and effect you're looking for.

It's more complicated than that, and many factors contribute to an environment that gives someone permission in their own minds to commit these acts. And it may be more of an after-the-fact justification. The SCOTUS decision could provide a justification for anyone looking for one.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The page you cite totally mischaracterizes the Heller decision which had nothing to do with
political assassination.

Build your argument on a credible source, not crap the CSGV puts out. They are no better than World Nut(Net) Daily.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. by all means, please characterize it properly
but even without the SCOTUS decision, the entire timeline of events is pretty jaw-dropping.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. What SCOTUS actually said.

So Held: The Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Heller v. DC (2008)
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You're right.
after some more research on the matter. Looks like the decision - Scalia's own opinion, even - expressly took out the insurrective language of the interpretation, and militia groups were pissed.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well i give you a big thumbs up for original research.
I will take research over rhetoric anyday.

The hate filled rhetoric of the right is a problem though it was just sad that article diluted the message by including false claims about Heller v. DC.
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I disagree...
There certainly is a positive correlation between right wing political activity and political assassination in this country.

It may not be a one for one but clearly such public advocacy of political solutions through murder have some affect.

http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/political-assassination-the-violent-enemy-of-democracy/">Political Assassination: The Violent Enemy of Democracy

But one example of the dark side of our history that we need to remember today is the history of political assassination in this country. Political assassination is an act of violence and of domination. It is inherently anti-democratic as it claims to know better than the people who elected someone (or were about to elect someone) who should lead the people–and a willingness to violently impose this “greater wisdom” on the populace. Democracy is more than elections, but clean, non-fraudulent elections (even in situations with limited choices) are a nonviolent, anti-authoritarian, anti-domination practice. The more thoroughly a given society is a participatory democracy, the more it rejects political violence in a very practical way (even if a person or party is elected whom no democrat and no peacemaker would celebrate). Process–practices–matter as much as individual results of elections.

I would argue that a series of political assassinations from my early childhood (Pres. John F. Kennedy in ’63; Malcolm X in ’65; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Sen. Robert Kennedy in ’68) derailed progressive social movements and ushered in a political deep freeze for 40 years–a time which saw the nation repeatedly come close to proto-fascism. I say that not because any or all of these men were saints–each had his own set of major faults. But their violent deaths greatly damaged the country (and, because of U.S. power abroad, the world). In 2 cases (JFK and RFK), the assassinations deliberately negated the electoral will of the people.


It's time for democrats to "reload."
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. How does that tie to Heller?
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Again you want 100% relationshup
That seems to be your position. If there isn't a 1:1 or 100% correlation, you won't accept the relationship between advocating political violence and the political violence itself.

As for Heller, it's BAD LAW. It blurs the line between the "right to self defense" and the "right to keep and bear arms in service of the well regulated militia." The USSC substituted their right wing agenda for the "rule of law." If you want a classic example of "correlation" that would be the relationship between right wingers and heinous administration of the country.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. k&r
gives the lie to the false equivalence "the left is just as bad as the right"
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. That's always the final defense of the right wingers...
That the left wingers are just as bad. Yet history clearly shows that when it comes to political assassinations, the right wingers dominate the field.
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. Your comment about the new chainsaw in the garage reminds me...
After the 2008 election and freefall of the US economy new gun purchases grew by huge percentages. These weapons are sitting in houses across America waiting for an excuse to be used.
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. What the hell are you talking about?
After the 2008 election and freefall of the US economy...


The Bush Jr "Great Recession" began in 2007. Long before the election...

BTW: Gun sales have been declining ever since Obama was elected.

http://www.google.com/search?q=history+of+gun+purchases+sales&hl=en&sa=X&tbs=tl:1,tll:2000,tlh:2001&prmd=ivns&ei=pRgqTZiXOc6hngfayc3EAQ&ved=0CGcQyQEoAQ
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. From your link:
Dec 2008 Dec 5, 2008 - The former Illinois senator's election is behind a surge of gun sales in November, the Illinois State Rifle Association says. A spokesman for the Illinois State Police confirmed that the agency conducted 24076 background checks for gun purchases in November, 39 percent more than the ...
From State gun sales up 39 percent in Nov. - Rockford, IL - Rockford Register … - Related web pages
www.rrstar.com/news/x596332815/State-gun-sales ...

Jan 2009 Jan 18, 2009 - Police records for Spokane County show gun sales at pawnshops more than doubled from November and December 2007 to November and December 2008. Applications for concealed-pistol licenses in Spokane County rose 40 percent in the last two months of 2008 compared with the same months a ...
From … | Fear of restrictions spurs gun purchases | Seattle Times


Chart of Dow Jones showing drop from 12750 to 7052 in 2008: http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1986.html

But listen, I'm just saying that when guns are bought, stored at home, eventually it's going to show up statistically as more people getting hit by bullets.

I see from Wikipedia that the percentage of housholds with guns has decreased from 1989 to 2004, and am relieved. Thanks for setting me straight. (Wonder who wrote this:)

Gun ownershipThe General Social Survey (GSS) is a primary source for data on firearm ownership, with surveys periodically done by other organizations such as Harris Interactive.<55> In 2004, 36.5% of Americans reported having a gun in their home and in 1997, 40% of Americans reported having a gun in their homes. At this time there were approximately 44 million gun owners in the United States. This means that 25 percent of all adults, and 40 percent of American households, owned at least one firearm. These owners possessed 192 million firearms, of which 65 million were handguns<56> The number of American homes reporting have a gun in their homes is down from 46% as reported in 1989.<57> Philip J. Cook suggests that increased numbers of female-headed households may be a factor in declining household ownership figures.<21> A National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (NSPOF), conducted in 1994, indicates that Americans own 192 million guns, with 36% of these consisting of rifles, 34% handguns, 26% shotguns, and 4% of other types of long guns.<58> Most firearm owners own multiple firearms, with the NSPOF survey indicating 25% of adults own firearms.<58> In the United States, 11% of households report actively being involved in hunting,<57> with the remaining firearm owners having guns for self-protection and other reasons. Throughout the 1970s and much of the 1980s, the rate of gun ownership in the home ranged from 45-50%.<57> Gun ownership also varies across geographic regions, ranging from 25% rates of ownership in the Northeastern United States to 60% rates of ownership in the East South Central States.<59> The GSS survey and other proxy measures of gun ownership do not provide adequate macro-level detail to allow conclusions on the relationship between overall firearm ownership and gun violence.<21> Criminologist Gary Kleck compared various survey and proxy measures and found no correlation between overall firearm ownership and gun violence.<14>

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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well, maybe it's something else,
But the graph I linked shows falling gun sales and the recession started in 2007.

I assume some of that growth is inflation. However....

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_22/b4180021327407.htm">Why Gun Sales Are Faltering

Gun and ammunition sales grew 8.9 percent in 2009 to $10.4 billion, reports research firm IBISWorld. Some of that growth came from huge military ammo buys to supply troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of it, however, reflected the purchase of guns and bullets by consumers who feared Obama would restrict sales later. This year, with anxiety over gun control easing, the industry will experience a 5.7 percent revenue decline, figures IBISWorld.

Still, the outlook isn't entirely bleak for gunmakers and sellers. From 2011 to 2015, the industry will grow at an annual rate of 3.7 percent, IBISWorld analyst Nima Samadi predicts. That's down from an estimated annual pace of 6.9 percent for the five-year period ending Dec. 31, 2010.


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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. well, a few years back mccain dumped a sorry ass governor on the american scene
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. "ACE" McCain?
Anyone who knows the real back story on McCain wouldn't take him seriously...

Start with how McCain became an ACE.
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