My Aunt's death has shown me just how Christian her church is.

[Snoutport]

My dear small-town Aunt just passed. She was a lovely lady. She was the town librarian until she retired so she was well known and well respected and she was a very Christian woman. She was very active in her church and was one of the woman who always made sure, after an accident or a tragedy, that someone from the church showed up with a hot casserole and some hot cinnamon rolls. She was there for everyone in her family, she was there for everyone in her church. She was...wonderful. (Though, I will admit...not a very good cook. Sometimes those cinnamon rolls were as hard as hockey pucks...but the gesture was one of pure goodness).

Her only drawback in this tight-knit small town, was that her youngest son was gay. Not just gay, but super gay. We gays don't talk about it much, keeping up a united front, you know...but, yes, even we admit that some guys are not just gay... some are super gay. They can't hide it no matter how hard they try. They flit when they mean to run, the flap when they mean to wave and they giggle when they mean to laugh, HA HA HA like a barrel chested man. So, yeah, my very religious aunt had a super gay son and there was no hiding it. My poor super gay cousin grew up in one of the country's most religious towns and man-oh-man did he have the emotional scars to prove it.

He lived far away most of my life but he is a great older cousin. I came out to him young (it was the early 80s) in a letter (he lived in decadent West Hollywood!). A few days later I got a small packet in the mail. He sent a supportive letter, a birthday card with a smutty man on the cover (my heavens! he's naked for MY birthday!!) and every single piece of literature that had been printed on this new AIDS thing and some condoms. He wrote several pages just making sure that I understood that I had to have safe sex. He also told me that he had told his parents. I was horrified! My aunt and uncle just lived up the street and now my fate was in their hands!

They invited me down for lunch. They were quiet and prim and reserved and super supportive. They just wanted me to know that there were people in the family who didn't give a dang if I was gay or not. I was just super to them! (But not super gay...I was a macho young buck driving a farm truck and throwing 150 lb bales of hay all day).

And so this dear religious woman accepted the people God put in her life. She loved them and treated them well. When my mom was hurt my aunt was there with a pot of chicken and dumplings. Every time my dad was sick there was a batch of hockey pucks. Errrr...I mean cinnamon rolls. She never failed to be there for her family and church members.

As a widow in her mid 80s she realized she needed some help. She had three children. Two who lived nearby with grown children, and the gay son living the single life at the beach. Who invited her in? The gay son. He made room for her and they bounced between his house and hers. When the cancer hit he sold his house and moved to her home to be with her. He cared for her for several years. Got her to chemo, got her to church, took her to see her church friends, delivered God knows how many casseroles and cinnamon rolls with her.

And even though the religious people in her life did not approve of homosexuality they saw her gay son give up his gay life to return home and do what her other kids weren't willing to do. They saw him honor his mother with great care for several years.

And she passed. And the funeral was packed. And a sweet woman has moved on to her next adventure.

My mom and I weren't able to see my cousin in the week after so I invited him over for dinner the other night. He is a little lost and confused. Hurting. Lonely. Alone at 63. And I asked him if he had been inundated with casseroles and baked goods after my aunt passed. And he got this sad, small look on his face and in the deadest voice I've ever heard from him he squeaked out. "No. Nobody brought anything."

"I'm surprised," my mom said, "She was so active in the church and they took everybody food."

"Yes," he whispered. "I was surprised too."

It broke my heart. Here this guy had given up his whole life to help his mom. He had proved by his actions that even if he was super gay, he was as good a Christian as anyone at the church he took his mom to every week. And when the time came for the church to show just how Christian they are, they did. Even though every one of them probably owed my aunt a favor and a dozen baked dishes they repayed her kindness by snubbing her son. The gay guy didn't deserve a f**king macaroni and cheese in their eyes.

This has hurt him. The loss, the snub. He just bought a condo 1000 miles away sight-unseen he wants out of that place so bad.

I wish him Godspeed.

[MissB]

1. Damn.

I'm sorry about your aunt, and I'm sorry that your cousin was treated so shabbily by folks who should have known better.

Your aunt sounds like just the perfect person, and she clearly raised a wonderful son. Hope he gets past the extra pain.

[Snoutport]

6. I guess it is the extra pain they chose to inflict that makes me saddest

His mom had died...that's a terrible day for anyone. What kind of people would choose to make someone feel worse?

[white_wolf]

84. Reminds me of something my dad says sometimes.

If you want to give someone the death penalty make sure to stack the jury with Southern Baptists. My dad is a PI for reference, not a prosecutor.

[japple]

183. Yep, those Southern Baptists will beat 'em to death with a bible.

n/t

[roguevalley]

132. those people had a chance to show their quality and they did.

your cousin did too. Guess who is the better person? Guess who emulated God and Jesus the best? Guess who is more beloved right now? I wish you all the best for your family. Tell your cousin that I hug him in my heart.

[horseshoecrab]

144. I'm sorry Snoutport...

Sorry that you've lost the presence of your wonderful aunt in your life.

Sincere condolences to your cousin who learned so well the lessons she taught. He has endured the kind of shunning that is meant to hurt. How pathetic they are to try to make him feel worse in his time of grieving.

I'm thinking of the crows. You know, they mourn each crow's death and they help their fellow crows through the process of grieving.

:grouphug: to both you and your cousin, who certainly deserves better treatment from his fellow humans. I wish him all good things as he sets out on his new life. I hope that we will hear more about how he is doing.

horseshoecrab

[trueblue2007]

259. I'M SO SORRY SNOUTPORT TOO. not all Christians are so hateful

i'm a Christian kiddo and i think you are a great guy. take care and God Bless you. i didn't see your note early enough to recommend it but i'd give you a THUMBS UP!

[Joe Bacon]

233. So sorry Snoutport, because I know the feeling...

My "born again" aunt treated me the same way when she found out my girlfriend was African American. She made it clear when she called me that what I was doing "wasn't christian". Once, my girlfriend answered the phone and my aunt went off on a racial tirade that would have made David Duke proud. Yes, she used the "N" word with my girlfriend, reducing her to tears. And my aunt said she would continue to pray for god to mend my perverted ways.

What really hurts is that other family members are just as bigoted. And they all claim to be filled with "christian compassion".

Sorry, but I've seen too many examples of christian hatred and I want no part of it. I refuse to step into a church on a Sunday morning and hear Republican propaganda. I'd rather stay in my bed and sleep.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

2. I Have Long Said........................

..............that you'll find some of the most evil people you'll ever meet in your life.............in church every Sunday.

[Snoutport]

7. I'd never heard that! But I like it!

[mrmpa]

99. Try this one...............

Never trust a man/woman who HAS to be in church on sunday.

Heard this from a truck driver at a company I used to work for. The grandsons (very prominent in their church) of the founders of the company ran it into the ground. Checks to vendors and employees were bouncing. I had seen inventory missing from stock. Stuff was walking out the front door as "donations" to schools and non-profits, etc. The quote has stuck with me for over 20 years.

[SharonAnn]

214. She'd leave her dying mother's bedside to be sure she didn't miss church on Sunday.

My mother said that about a very, very religious woman who was a neighbor of ours.

This mother of 14 children went to Mass every morning instead of fixing breakfast and getting the kids off to school.

On the other hand, maybe it's the only way she could hope.

[JitterbugPerfume]

128. it is true

[Sherman A1]

12. Agreed

It's a damn shame that people act this way, yet hardly surprising.

But, the shame is upon them and no one else. In one sense the OP's cousin is better off with things the way they turned out as there is absolutely no mistake about the sentiments of these "good (for nothing) christians." He can pack up and get out the there as soon as he can and never look back upon their "christianity" and ingratitude towards his Mom's community efforts.

[Delphinus]

18. Wish I didn't agree - but, boy do I ever.

Snoutport, you are such a wonderful writer. You flesh out the stories so well - I get to know who you are speaking of to a degree I wouldn't think possible. Thank you for being able to do that for us. May your aunt rest in peace and may your cousin, her son, find joy and connection where he moves.

(edit to get your name right)

[Snoutport]

78. Very kind, thank you :0)

[calimary]

154. Great post - says exactly how I feel.

We can see who the blessed souls are (and aren't) here.

My condolences Snoutport. Your aunt is in heaven and I'm sure your cousin will be, too, when he passes - and FAR more easily than those so quick to condemn him in this life.

[NotThisTime]

33. I so agree....

[AnotherMother4Peace]

56. Unfortunately a couple of those people are my relatives.... nt

[Plucketeer]

74. Hooo Baby!

I couldn't agree MORE! Take away the veneer of holiness, and you get to see the REAL Christian vermin.

[rhett o rick]

201. I like it also choppin. nm

[krabigirl]

266. Yep.

[Lost-in-FL]

3. ...

:cry:

[csziggy]

4. I hope your cousin can make a good life in a better community

Condolences to him and to your family for the loss of your aunt. :hug:

[Snoutport]

8. I hope so too.

And thank you.

[aquart]

5. What church? What town?

Don't protect them.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. My dear Snoutport...

I've heard stories like yours before, and they always break my heart. How sad for your great older cousin. So very sad...

What in God's good name is wrong with those people? Do they really see themselves as Christians? How could they behave so badly?

It makes me sick, and it makes me sad, both.

I wish him Godspeed too, and a loving warm community to embrace him when he moves away...

:hug:

[Snoutport]

10. I have the same hopes for him

Hope you are well and happy:0)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. I am, sweetie, thank you...:0)

[pinboy3niner]

13. MY love, to him and to you

I could say, "May he have casseroles in Heaven." but I'm not a big believer in that.

I can only say that I'd damn sure bring him a casserole and express my condolences. :grouphug:

[blueamy66]

32. I'm with you.

Although I do believe in Heaven.

hugs to the cousin

[AverageJoe90]

14. Oh, that poor man.

Honestly, I wish I could do something. These people aren't true Christians, you're absolutely right about that; I can't believe they snubbed him like that just because he was born gay. :banghead: :grr:

But, at least your aunt has moved on to an infinitely better place. ;-)

My condolences.

[provis99]

16. No True Scotsman.

[Creideiki]

24. False equivalence--the logical fallacy of the day!

Unfortunately for most Christians, we have a good resource for exactly what a True Christian should be--the Gospels. The guy who hung out with tax collectors and harlots and chased money changers from his father's house and said things like "easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle." Never did he say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner."

I was fortunate to grow up with a wonderful caring and compassionate man as my pastor. During confirmation classes, he made sure that we understood these things.

[trotsky]

87. "we have a good resource for exactly what a True Christian should be--the Gospels"

Unfortunately, you also have about 10,000 versions and translations and interpretations of those gospels. And you ignore the parts you don't like just like Pat Robertson ignores the parts he doesn't like.

The guy who allegedly hung out with tax collectors also said "I came not to bring peace but a sword."

The guy who pretty much laid down the foundations of your religion - as much as liberal Christians wish to ignore just about everything Paul wrote - gives the right wing exactly the cover they want to gut social programs in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-14. "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

The whole point here is that because of the vagueness and wide-open interpretation of your bible (along with mind-blowing contradictions therein), a person can believe practically anything they want and yet still be a Christian. It is religious bigotry to imply or insist that only good people are "true" Christians.

[rasputin1952]

96. Actually, the first four books of the NT make up the "Gospels"...

I know of no where where anything Paul said in the "Letters" have much to do with what Jesus spoke of in the "Gospels".

There is discussion on hypocrisy, empathy, forgiveness, caring, feeding the hungry, clothing tho naked and taking care of the poor in not just the words spelled out in th3e "gospels", but in the other major religions as well.

What happened w/Paul's "Letters", is that certain interests decided that they would take the worst and use it as a wedge, same thing happens in other religious writings as well. Go for the "bad" to scare people into believing in a certain way. With or without any religion at all, people can be good people, just as the can be be bad people. To blame such bad on Christianity is a false implication, as each individual is free to accept of reject the current tenets of it or any other religions.

I've known people of many faiths and no faith that have sacrificed immensely for the benefit of others less fortunate, to single out a religion(s) as somehow inherently "bad" may be your opinion, but it is not a fact.

[trotsky]

100. Yup, that's the usual rationalization put forth.

Dismissal of Paul, despite his writings being the earliest, etc. And of course I am not singling out any religion as "bad", only focusing on the use of the term "True Christian" as it relates to this thread.

[rasputin1952]

143. Regadless...the rationalization by others that "religion" is

inherently bad is the other side of the coin.

[trotsky]

146. Religion is inherently able to justify almost anything.

I'm not saying it is inherently bad - if you want to argue against that straw man, you might want to try somewhere else.

[rasputin1952]

155. Sadly, most people who argue agaisnt religion fail to see the

millions of people of various faiths that use that faith for good things...people focus on the "bad", it serves their purpose.

That is a reality and it justifies their position that religion is inherently bad. Look through R/T, and the rest of the world, it shows up rather consistently. Seems to me, and many others, that people don't "allow" people to believe what they want to, it's a constant battle. A battle that draws itself down to calling others names and attempting to show them as dolts or fools.

For the millions of the various faiths that do no harm, is it valid to denigrate them?

[trotsky]

176. So you chose the straw man.

Have fun!

[rasputin1952]

178. And you chose to call it that and reply...

I guess you are in this for the fun as well.

[rhett o rick]

202. But often times those millions will stand by and watch something like the OP tells about happen w/o

helping. There a lots of good people that are religious. And there are a lot of bad people that are religious. What bothers me the most is when the good people stick up or at least dont condemn the bad.

[rasputin1952]

213. There is no denying what you posted...

but I figure, in general, for every piece of crap in any religion, there are about 100+ people that are quietly doing good things. Whether religious or no-religious, there are good and bad...I praise the good and condemn the bad; I figure that is the best option.

[WarhammerTwo]

239. PEOPLE are inherently able to justify almost anything.

They don't need religion to support or defend their positions. Some do, but lots don't.

[trotsky]

247. And religion has been quite possibly the handiest tool with which to do so.

Most have used it. George Bush used it. Barack Obama uses it.

[rasputin1952]

251. As well as Mother Theresa ans Desmund Tutu...

Religion itself is not inherently bad, however, some use it for nefarious purposes...others use it for good.

Expose the bad, exalt the good, not just in religion, but in all aspects of life.

[trotsky]

252. You might want to be careful using Mother Theresa as a "good" example. n/t

[WarhammerTwo]

255. Agreed. It's a tool.

Some use it for good. Some use it for bad. Kinda like a hammer. Some use it to build houses and provide shelter. Others use it bash in people's heads. I guess I just don't understand what your goal is with all your postings. I mean, I agree with you. The Bible is vague, contradictory in places (especially when comparing Old Testament to New Testament) and it's incredibly subjective. So what?

[trotsky]

258. I've stated my point multiple times. I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring it or not.

What I objected to on this thread was the INEVITABLE post that appears whenever the topic comes up where Christians haven't behaved well: "That person clearly wasn't a True Christian."

That response is wrong and bigoted. You are the one who sidetracked it into a discussion of how it can be used for good/bad/etc. That's all fine and dandy. But it doesn't change what I said. So, as I asked elsewhere, do you agree with me or not?

[WarhammerTwo]

260. No, I simply did not understand your point.

Now I'm completely clear on it and I 100% agree with you.

[snooper2]

254. The fact is religion is inherently bad, that's why we have these small hick towns

all across the country with bible thumping families brainwashing each other generation after generation. And along with it all the hatred and ignorance. But them good 'xtian folks who would help you out in a storm :eyes:


Try to explain something as complex as a supernova and it's just too much for the brain. Jesus makey the sky light up at night :rofl:

[rasputin1952]

269. I don't see it that way when one gets down to the basic tenets

of major religions, the one's that are ignored far too often.

Hypocrisy is mentioned far more often than anything else
Don't steal
Don't bear false witness
Show compassion and empathy
Alleviate suffering
heal where you can
Forgive
Do not condemn unjustly

Just to name a few. These are not strictly Christian values, they show up in every major religion. The problem is, people tend to listen to others that proclaim "authority". I can listen to the lower AM band and hear 20 times that I ma going to hell because I don't adhere to the bastardized version of a religion, any religion. It is not the religion that is at fault, fault rests on those that that seek out the negative, but even more so on those that "accept" what the fools spout out.

I find it difficult not to see the good that people do, either through religious aspects or otherwise...and when people do bad things, I call them on it. Hatred is easy, compassion and love are often quite difficult.

It's also easy to condemn a group completely as opposed to see what good can come from it. I'm not Catholic, but I know many Catholics that have been involved in many Social Causes that have helped this nation in many ways. I am not Jewish, but I know many Jews that have helped people of other religions w/o question. I am not Muslim, but I have seen Muslims feed the hungry and hand out blankets w/o regard to a person's religion...all of the people helped needed help, ans people rose to the occasion. Many of them did this because they had faith they were doing the right thing. I know of atheists and agnostics that have helped people as well...it is a Human Condition, some rise to the occasion, some step over the bodies of the downtrodden.

[larwdem]

219. I like your jesus

But not his followers thy are so unlike your jesus

[WarhammerTwo]

118. You're taking that "bring a sword" line out of context.

My UCC congregation recently ran an adult education series on the topic, "Did Jesus Always Preach Non-Violence?" And Matthew 10 is often brought up to demonstrate that Jesus didn't always oppose violence to spread Christianity. Unfortunately, when folks use that one line, they are taking it completely out of context and I've discovered over the years that Scripture taken out of context is a very, very dangerous thing. The whole passage is as follows:

“Do not think that I come to bring the peace upon earth: I came not to send peace but the sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and the man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He, who loves father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me; and he, who loves son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me. And he, who does not take up his cross and follow Me, is not worthy of Me” (Matt. 10: 34-38)

Ya gotta remember that Jesus was a Jewish reformer. His teaching were often in direct conflict with the Jewish orthodoxy of that time (which is why you'll often find discrepancies or hypcracy between the Old and New Testaments). Like was previously stated, he hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes. He talked to those no good, dirty Samaritans (even going so far as to make one of them the hero in one of his most famous parables). He pissed a lot of people off. And ultimately, as the story goes, it was a big part of what lead to his death.

So, of course, when you are so radical and are considered a rabble rouser to the establishment, and your teachings are then adopted by the more open minded folks in society, it will cause conflict and fighting with the more conservative folks.

So if a Jew who is raised to stone adulterous women listens to Jesus message and decides to not cast that first stone, it might hack off that Jew's father who is old fashion and thinks his son is going against traditional Jewish laws. In that regard Jesus will set that man against his father. That's your sword Jesus is talking about. Essentially, it was a warning to his potential followers: "Look, if you buy in to what I'm selling, it's gonna stir up a lot shit with a lot of people, including your own family. Hope you're up for it."

[trotsky]

120. Yup, and that's the other common rationalization.

Tell you what, you convince all the Christians who disagree with you that they are wrong, and then I'll accept your preferred interpretation.

[kestrel91316]

125. So I guess we are wrong when we see that thing about the sword as METAPHOR?

You are taking it as literally as the fundies.

Most decent liberal christians are NOT biblical literalists. They seek the meaning behind the words.

[WarhammerTwo]

137. But that Jesus' teaching style...

He almost always taught using parables. What? Do you think that the story of the Good Samaritan, or the Prodigal Son or the Mustard Seeds were re-tellings of historical fact? Does it say somewhere int the Bible that the Messiah was forbidden from speaking figuratively? Look, just because a bunch of arrogant, load mouthed yahoos CLAIM to have a direct hotline to God and know for a fact that they have the end-all-be-all interpretation of Scripture does NOT PROVE they have the end-all-be-all interpretation of Scripture. All it proves it that they are a bunch or arrogant, load mouthed yahoos.

And I am not saying I am right. I could very well be wrong. Anyone arrogant enough to say that they KNOW for a FACT EXACTLY what God or Jesus intended in the Scriptures (especially when it wasn't actually written down for God-knows-how-many years after the fact and had to be translated over and over again) instantly loses credibility with me. It's one thing to have a strong belief. My beliefs are strong, but I'm humble enough to know that I don't know what God knows and that my beliefs may ultimately turn out to be wrong. Heck, I could even be wrong about the existence of God. I hope I'm not. I'd be pretty bummed out if I died only to find a whole lot of nothing afterward (that was a joke, by the way).

Regardless, the bottom line is just because the literalists seem to be front and center when it comes to theological authority, it doesn't mean they are right. And any attempt to reform this mindset shouldn't simply be written off as mere rationalization. You can make that rationalization claim about any subjective issue. Please don't poo-poo valid introspection, dissection and discussion of perhaps the most influential (for good and bad) texts in the history of mankind.

[trotsky]

142. Jesus himself allegedly said why he taught in parables.

It was to make sure not everyone could understand him. In that he certainly succeeded! And it isn't about literalists being more "right," it's that they aren't any more wrong than you are.

[WarhammerTwo]

166. You're talking about Matthew 13, right?

It wasn't about trying to confuse people. It was about challenging people and making them think (kinda like what we're doing now). Again, you have to look at this in the historical context and based on the precedent established in the Scriptures. He was a Jewish reformer. If he was trying to reform the religion, would it make sense to utterly confuse potential converts? Wouldn't that drive them away? Plus, to many Jews, jesus was just another loud mouth prophet in a long line of prophets, and there were many false prophets that are never mentioned in Scripture. these folks were being pelted all over the place with the "Word of God." People grew desensitized to this sort of stuff. And that's what some scholars think he meant when he referred to Isaiah, concerning people who have eyes but do not see, and have ears but do not hear (Mtt 13:11-17, Isa 6:8-10). So Jesus had to stand out and make his teachings stick. In telling the parables, Jesus was capturing their attention, making them think and question. It's a great tool. Some folks got it and opened their spiritual eyes and ears to be enlightened. Some didn't.

And his listeners to this day are still struggling with his message. And that's why I 100% agree with you when you say literalists aren't any more wrong than I am. As I stated previously, I fully admit that I can be completely wrong about all of this.

[trotsky]

141. Sure, and a sword as a metaphor can also mean violence.

It's certainly no more of stretch than saying an instrument of war symbolizes peace.

[dflprincess]

216. Yet he also said "Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God"

Go figure.

[trotsky]

223. Yup - so many contradictions.

No wonder you can pretty much pick whatever you want and still be a Christian.

[LanternWaste]

135. Until then, you prefer an interpretation

Until then, you prefer your interpretation which better validates your presuppositions... :shrug:

[trotsky]

140. It has nothing to do with my preference, and I have none.

When all Christians agree, then you can say what a verse conclusively means.

[WarhammerTwo]

153. No, you can't.

Not even then. You can only say what a verse conclusively means when you talk to the source. And since Jesus isn't here and since nobody's been conversing with any burning bushes lately, we just need to make sense of it as best we can or choose to disregard it all together. Whatever works best for you.

[trotsky]

174. "whatever works best for you."

Yup, which is exactly the point. You seem to have ended up agreeing with me.

[WarhammerTwo]

235. I went back and looked over your inital post, trotsky...

...where you said, "The whole point here is that because of the vagueness and wide-open interpretation of your bible (along with mind-blowing contradictions therein), a person can believe practically anything they want and yet still be a Christian. It is religious bigotry to imply or insist that only good people are "true" Christians."

And, y'know, after re-reading it, I don't think I was ever disagreeing with you. I think you picked out a really bad example to point out hypocrisy or contradiction in the Scriptures with the "bring a sword" reference. As an example of being able to interpret the Bible any way you want? yeah. It's a good example. As a mind-blowing contradiction, not so much. Other than citing a bad example, I think you're absolutely right. The Bible is waaaay vague.

I mean, if you have problems dealing with that sort of ambiguity, well, sir, I dunno what to tell you. I don't have such problems. Mainly because I don't mind struggling with Scripture. And I'm okay if I can't come to a definitive answer. And I don't need answers for some of the most crazy, outrageous stuff in the Bible either. My belief in Jesus doesn't lie in his miraculous conception or his resurrection. Honestly, I don't how those events played out. I personally think they're gross exaggerations of real events. Then again, they could be just made up bullshit. I dunno. I wasn't there when it happened. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I call myself a Christian, though, because I believe in the teaching attributed to the guy. For me, it all boils down to Luke10:27, "He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" That's the main point for me. You're my neighbor, no matter what you believe, and that's all that matters. And with that in mind, I would never imply or insist that only good people are "true" Christians. There are bad Christians, too (I had to look up the whole "No True Scotsman" remark to understand what you were getting at). There's good and bad Muslims. And there are good people that aren't Christian or Muslim or Jewish or religious or spiritual at all.

And while you consider such vagueness a detriment, I consider it an advantage. My views would exclude me from most mainline organized religion. I can't be Catholic. I'm certainly not Evangelical. But fortunately, no one can stop me from subscribing to the teachings of Jesus. No one can stop me from viewing myself as a Christian. I was very fortunate to find the United Church of Christ Congregation to which I now belong. My views are accepted there, even though they're pretty radical to some folks in the church. We have an agnostic that attends because he's drawn to our church's mission work. He's accepted there. If we adhered to a a rigid Biblical interpretation, we may not have been allowed to be part of our congregation. Seriously, my church is like the island of misfit theologians. And it's the ambiguity that we embrace that allows for this, and I , for one, couldn't be happier. No matter how much folks argue to the contrary, NO ONE has an absolute claim or authority to Christianity. If they did, we'd all be living together under one holy, catholic and apostolic church. Heck, even Islam can't get their shit straight which is why ya got Sunnis and Shiites getting up in each others' grills.

And it's not just an inherent nature of religion. It's the inherent nature of PEOPLE. We are not the same. We're not some hive mind. We all have vastly different opinions. On everything. That's why we have political parties. We can't even agree on a definite interpretation of our own damn Constitution. Even within political parties, you have subdivisions. You have libertarians and Tea Party folks in the Republican party. You have Blue Dogs in the Democratic party.

So I guess what I'm curious about is since you stated that religion isn't inherently bad and any set of ideals or laws can be open to interpretation (the whole point of the Supreme Court, after all, is to interpret our laws), why are you specifically hammering on Christianity?

[trotsky]

256. "why are you specifically hammering on Christianity?"

Because that's the specific religion in this thread, and the one that saturates life in the USA.

It is interesting you think the wide-open, contradictory nature of your religion is an advantage. You say: "No one can stop me from viewing myself as a Christian." Nope, and no one can stop Fred Phelps from doing the same. Which is the whole point! Who is the "true" Christian? You don't know. You admit you can never know. You might be completely and totally wrong in your views, and god really is an asshole who hates homosexuals. Fred Phelps MAY be the "truest" Christian on the planet! Throwing out the term "true Christian" to be the equivalent of "good person" is wrong, and religiously bigoted to do. So do you agree with me or not?

[WarhammerTwo]

261. I agree completely.

I completely misunderstood your stance adn I apologize for that. I can't stand Phleps and I (in my own opinion) think he's horribly distorting Scripture, but, yeah, for all I know he could be right on themoney. Until I meet God (if I ever meet God), I won't know for sure one way or another. Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding and all the rigamarole that followed. I am glad we didn't throw our hands up in the air and give up on the discussion, though. You could have easily gotten fed up and written me off as some maroon that "just doesn't get it" and stopped responding. So, thanks for keeping at it until I finally got it.

[trotsky]

262. No biggie, sorry we got talking past each other!

Peace out.

[WarhammerTwo]

237. Something else I just noticed...

You say, "Unfortunately, you also have about 10,000 versions and translations and interpretations of those gospels. And you ignore the parts you don't like just like Pat Robertson ignores the parts he doesn't like."

So when I go and present an argument explaining the "bring a sword" example you cite, you write it off as a rationalization.

So either we Christians ignore the stuff or we rationalize the stuff. Essentially, in your eyes, we Christians are damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. It's like circular logic for you. You've framed the argument in such a way that I can never possibly be right. Yeesh.

[trotsky]

246. Not true at all.

You can be right - just get all Christians to agree on your interpretation. That would be a huge first step.

You have rationalizations for your beliefs and interpretations, so does Pat. (And so does Fred Phelps, so does the pope, etc.) Who am I to judge which rationalization is correct? Convince your fellow Christians!

[WarhammerTwo]

253. See post #235

I've already addressed this argument.

[trotsky]

257. And I've responded. n/t

[WarhammerTwo]

150. Well, two points:

1) It's not accepting an interpretation that best suits presuppositions. It's based on precedent. 99% of what Jesus spoke about was about love and tolerance: stopping the stoning of the adulterous woman, love thy neighbor as thy self, the healing of the Centurion's son, stopping Peter from killing the guard in the garden of Gethsemane and actually healing the guard's ear, etc. The list goes on and on. This sword line sticks out like a sore thumb when held up to the rest of Jesus' teachings. Why? Why is he all about peace, love and tolerance and then all of a sudden he's all, like, "Eff peace! I got a sword, bee-atch!" It doesn't make sense and stands in stark contrast to the precedent Jesus has set previously. So maybe, just maybe, that text doesn't mean what we thought it meant.

2) You're assuming we have presuppositions. Does that mean anyone who who writes a different interpretation of established literary texts automatically has presuppositions? You'd be invalidating the graduate work of a lot of English and Literature majors if that's the case. Do you really think that biblical scholars (or anyone for that matter) can't approach Scriptures from a non-biased point of view? And even if there are presuppositions, if you can back up your thesis with a well constructed argument then it should be accepted that you have a valid point. That's the thing with interpretation. There is no right or wrong. It's subjected. You either have a good argument or you don't. If you think the metaphor explanation is a weak argument, please explain why.

[WarhammerTwo]

170. My apologies, Lantern.

I thought your post was refering to me. Regardless, I stand by it. Judging by his comments, trotsky sounds agnostic or atheistic (please correct me if I'm wrong,trotsky). Despite that, I don't see why trotsky couldn't approach the Bible from a completely nonbiased stand point as he would any other piece of literature. If he doesn't believe in it, I would hope he'd be able to critically review it as he would any piece of fiction.

[trotsky]

179. I have approached your bible from several standpoints, critical and noncritical.

I find it interesting as a collection of various myths and stories, but hardly useful as a practical moral guide as I have indicated in this thread. I find it interesting, though, how common the reaction is that when a believer encounters someone who doesn't value their holy text as much as they do, they assume the infidel just hasn't read their special book in the right way.

[kurtzapril4]

You are wasting your time, Trotsky

Christians always rationalise, obfuscate, and "no true Scotsman" every detail in their book. They always have an excuse for their saviour and his dad, and their fellow camp-followers. Good on you for trying, though. I feel the same way you do.

Snoutport, I am sorry for your loss. And I'm very, very sorry for the treatment your cousin received. Heartbreaking...if he lived near me I would have sent a dang hot dish in a second. If he moves to Northern IL...I'll do it and I'm serious.

[mr blur]

139. + 10

[Manifestor_of_Light]

105. Jesus condemned people to hell who didn't like his preaching.

he also cursed out a fig tree that did not produce fruit in winter.

That's in my bible. Is that not in yours???? Jesus was not always a nice guy.
There are maybe five or six pages of good stuff in mine.

[WarhammerTwo]

129. It's not as kooky as it sounds....

First off, we need to take the whole thing in context. here's the whole passage from both Gospels in which the story is mentioned:

From Matthew 21 (NIV)
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

From Mark 11 (NIV)
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”
18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples went out of the city.
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”


So, to clarify, it wasn't winter. It was spring. Both Mark and Matthew state the tree had leaves on it. It was just out of season for fruit. The fact that it had leaves on it, however, gave the appearance that it had fruit. So, yeah, Jesus was hungry and went to the tree expecting fruit. When he saw none, scholars suspect he decided to use it as a teachable moment, using the fig tree as a dramatic "visual aid." This was Jesus' teaching style, after all. He was a story teller; a Hebrew Aesop.

So what was this teachable moment? Well, it depends. Some say Jesus was illustrating the principle of faith to the disciples. If the disciples had such faith, they too could do such things as withering fig trees and moving mountains. They would need such faith in the hard days to come.

Other scholars believe that since the fig tree had leaves on it, from a distance it gave the appearance of being fruitful. Upon closer examination it became clear that there was no fruit on it at all. So perhaps Jesus' cursing of the fig tree was an acted-out parable that taught the disciples that God will judge those who give an outer appearance of fruitfulness but in fact are not fruitful at all (like the Pharisees).

Me? I don't see why it couldn't be both. In essence, looks can be deceiving and if your faith is strong, you shall be able to overcome such deception no matter how formidable (his example of being able to move a mountain on faith alone was, I believe, figurative and not meant to be taken literally). See? not so kooky sounding as you make it out to be. :)

[liberation]

138. How is the equivalence false, exactly?

given your very nice true Scotsman (errr, I mean true Christian) argument. Maybe you were going for the irony angle?


Oh, and you're also trying to establish an argument to authority. Interesting, given your initial complain about fallacy.

[provis99]

226. you got your opinion on the Gospels, and they got theirs.

Do you agree with the Gospels when Jesus says (several times) to hate your family?

[Frank Cannon]

26. I don't think the "no true Scotsman" thing necessarily applies here.

A lot of "Christian" churches today are as far removed from the actual teachings of Jesus as modern Republicans are from the party of Lincoln and, for that matter, Dwight Eisenhower.

[KittyWampus]

48. Ah, sort of like "no true Democrat"?

[Creideiki]

203. Nope. We also have a guiding document for Democrats

It's called the Party Platform.

There are variations--it does change. However, the core beliefs--sticking up for labor over corporations, taking care of the poor and elderly, minority rights--have remained standard for many, many years.

So, yeah. We have party leadership that is not acting like a True Democrat.

[LanternWaste]

71. I imagine Scotsmen are defined by acts and deeds?

I imagine Scotsmen are defined by acts and deeds?

[awoke_in_2003]

93. and it only took...

14 posts to get to it. How anyone gay could be a republican or any mainstream religion is beyond me- these people do not like them, no matter how they deny it.

[trotsky]

101. Only?

Usually NTS is within the first 5 on these kinds of threads.

[Angry Dragon]

15. For your cousin

:grouphug:

[ejpoeta]

17. can you tell your cousin something?

it may not mean anything coming from some stranger, but please do. First my condolences for his mom. I lost my own when i was 12. I just lost my dad to cancer 3 years ago this past april. It is an awful feeling. My thoughts are with him.

Please also tell him that people can call themselves christians all day long. I grew up catholic. I was dragged to church and went to catholic school. The number of people in those pews who bullied me and whose families were not very christian was something. Your aunt ACTED christian. She accepted people, and she treated them with respect. She took care of them when they needed it. She was there for all those people at that church. And her son was there for her. And for all those people at that church. A reflection of his mother's acceptance of him and loving him. He returned her kindness.

Something I learned a long time ago. There are christians... They have to tell people they are christians because their actions don't show it. And there are Christians.... like your aunt who give to others and do for others and probably don't go around proclaiming their Christianity so much because it is self evident. I hope your cousin will be ok. Frankly those 'christians' at that church don't deserve any more of his energy. He is a good man. I feel sorry for those people. Small minded and they are probably going to suffer for it too.

[Snoutport]

79. thanks ejpoeta

And I'm sorry for your losses too. 3 years isn't very long to heal over something big like this. I hope you are doing well.

[ejpoeta]

164. thanks. i still miss my dad. He was very special to me. But I know I didn't leave anything unsaid

and he had all of his kids with him. He didn't die wealthy, but he died rich in what mattered. He was loved. as I believe was your aunt. And it sounds like your cousin had that same kind of thing by the people who mattered. I wonder how many from that church will be able to say the same. I can only hope they will. I never want to wish ill of anyone.

[Prometheus Bound]

19. I'm surprised there wasn't at least one decent soul among them.

Perhaps there was, but the peer pressure was too great.

[Snoutport]

240. It would have hurt my aunt terribly to know they did this

I guess I just expect people to put their best foot forward.

[barbtries]

20. people suck.

please give your cousin my best wishes and appreciation for all he did for his mother. some of us are not closed minded assholes. :hug: him for me.

[trotsky]

21. I am sorry for your aunt's passing.

But you yourself used "Christian" as a synonym for "good" in your third sentence, and this is simply not the case. There are decent people who are Christians, and there are not-so-decent people who are ALSO Christians. They all apply the label to themselves, and each may be equally justified in doing so.

[Ilsa]

22. Judgmental bastards. These constant

church battles over gay rights and finding someone to hate is why I don't bother with most churches any more. I have zero interest in associating with people like that.

I'm very about your aunt. I hope your cousin finds much happiness far away from these idiots.

[rasputin1952]

23. I am reminded of the passage, "you shall know them by their works"...

Obviously, the son got he message, and the others that profess their Christianity, didn't.

Reading this, I am truly impressed w/the love and devotion that a single individual possesses. Gay or not, it was the love and devotion to one's own family that hits home. The prejudices of others be damned, love and dignity trump all of the self indulging crap that others use to "justify" their noxious positions.

The saving grace of this is that one man did what was right, and you recognized this. There is a lot to be said for that and I'm proud to recommend this.

Next time you talk to or write to this kind and compassionate man, let him know there are those of us out here that never knew him, but thank him for his wonderful act of humanity. Perhaps it's a small consolation, but he needs to know that what he did, and the decency he possess' are not forgotten, but are noticed and taken to heart.

[Snoutport]

80. "you shall know them by their works".... I Love that

[lunatica]

25. I hope he finds a community that welcomes him as he is

Small towns aren't what they're cracked up to be. Everyone meddles and gossips and life can be very miserable. He's better off leaving that place and finding people who welcome him with open arms.

[Snoutport]

245. he's heading for sunny california and back to his gay friends.

:0) he has been gone for 5 years but I'm hoping he will be really happy there after he reconnects.

[Dorian Gray]

27. That is a crying shame

You beautifully eulogized your Aunt and your cousin. They sound like amazing people. The church was negligent. Their kindness and goodness will be hugely hit by the loss of your Aunt.

Godspeed to her and your cousin. (And your entire family.)

[Bragi]

28. The problem here is NOT "being insufficiently Christian"

I think the problem is that these neighbors are filled with religiously-inspired bias and hate.

Whether their hatred reflects or does not properly reflect "Christian" values may be a debate among religious people.

As a humanist and atheist, however, I think that these neighbors lack any proper sense of human compassion, fairness or reciprocity for your gay cousin because they have been damaged by religion, not because they are insufficiently religious.

[TxVietVet]

30. I agree.

[Pacifist Patriot]

69. Excellent point

[Arugula Latte]

89. Yep. That idiotic book known as the Bible has caused untold harm.

[rasputin1952]

97. If you read the parts that speak of love, forgivenss, empathy...

feeding the hungry, healing and caring for the sick, seeking justice as opposed to retribution and a host of other items, you may look at this a little differently.

Same thing goes with every other major religion.

[Divine Discontent]

115. wonderful witnessing here in the threads, friend. Good job!

The words of Christ in the Gospels are golden and teach great love and acceptance of all. I'm glad you posted your words.

[Arugula Latte]

122. And those are the parts a lot of Christians choose to ignore

Also, I'm not "witnessing." That is a religious term and it makes my skin crawl.

[rasputin1952]

147. I do not currently subscribe to any religion, but have experience

in studying them. The religions are not really the problem, where as some who follow any of them are the problem. Extremism and closed minds are always a recipe for disaster.

[Divine Discontent]

248. Exactly, it's the people that ascribe to them that can be a prob, and I was particularly referencing

that you spoke the truth about the facts, is all.

I have defended all the religions on here, and atheists, but the hostility that you referenced in the actions of those who believe or don't believe in a specific thought/belief is, at heart, the problem. It's just easiest to say some people are really mean in their hearts, and that's why the son in this person's family was treated so inhospitably. That's a shame.

Best to you!

[Arugula Latte]

121. Yeah, but a lot of Xtians just focus on the crappy parts of that book to justify their hate and

their need to control and feel superior to others (women, gays, non-believers, etc.) There are a lot of sick, nasty, twisted things in the Bible. Obviously it's just a lot of stories and myths thrown together, but it has had a horrible effect on humanity taken as a whole.

And it's not the only religion I feel that way about. A pox on 'em all, frankly.

[rasputin1952]

149. I know agnostics and atheists that fit that mold as well...

of course, not all of them do, just the most vociferous. Generally because they have something to "prove", like they are somehow smarter than others. Of coursethis has been an ongoing battle for millennia.

[Moonwalk]

165. And I know Christians that fit that mold, too....

Not all of them do, of course, just the most vociferous. Generally because they have something to "prove," like they are somehow holier and better than others. Of course, this has been an ongoing battle for a millennia.

Which is to say...what's you're point? I don't know about you, but at this current point in time, if there's a choice, I'll take the atheist or agnostics. They don't knock on my door and tell me they've come to save me from anything, they don't stand on the mall with bullhorns telling me I'm going anywhere bad for my beliefs; I don't have to skip over their television channels on my television, or avoid their preachy movies at certain times of year. I don't have to hear their songs being constantly sung at Christmas time. And I don't have to see their meeting places on every other corner, with all the parking spaces gone every sunday because they've got a meeting.

What's that line about throwing the first stone? You might want to keep it in mind before making such "duh" comments about agnostics and atheists fitting any particular mold. I can tell you this, the atheists and agnostics I know, even of that "mold" you speak of, would have brought over the casseroles and cinnamon buns.

[rasputin1952]

177. The human beings, regardless of thier point of view, I know...

would have done the same. It is a part of our culture. I have taken things to people I've never known personally, but knew of them because others had told me. Religion, or lack there of have nothing to do with common decency.

I don't know about you, but to me, it's simply the right thing to do, it's part of what I was brought up to do...just as I don't "judge" people without specific reasons to do so.

[Divine Discontent]

249. love your response. God bless ya, regardless of whatever you believe, because you clearly defend

all people's rights to believe or not to believe whatever, and that there's bad folks in every type of situation. It's hard for some to agree to that, but what can you do, like you said, it's been going on forever...

:hi:

[Bragi]

167. I think those things are HUMAN values, not religious beliefs

Secular people also know and experience and practice what you describe as love, forgiveness, empathy, feeding the hungry, healing and caring for the sick, seeking justice as opposed to retribution and a host of other items

I think those are universal human values. No belief in a supernatural entity is required to seek, share or practice those values.

That's my point.

[rasputin1952]

197. I never said supernatural entities were required...

but if some people find it comforting to add that, so be it.

The only problem I have w/zealots , regardless of religion, (or lack thereof), is when others are condemned simply because they want to believe, (or not believe).

Point is, many on all sides of the spectrum are far too willing to condemn others, usually because they simply can. Condemnation of hypocrites is fine, but when innocents are condemned ad hoc, that is kind of nasty.

[Snoutport]

268. Well...I use the label they use for themselves. They choose to be one in name only.

At least in this case.

But it is bias and hate. You are right.

[TxVietVet]

29. Tell your Cousin, I'm sorry for his loss.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. I've been to various other churches also. I don't do churches anymore for I've found those places are usually where one can find the most hypocrites, especially the "born again" kind. Just because they go to a christian church doesn't mean that they are christian.

I believe in God. Your Aunt and your Cousin will find peace with their Maker. They did the right thing. Love, compasion and sharing with others. I believe that was the way of Christ.

The crowd in your Aunt's church is probably mostly hypocrites. They deserve every ounce of Hell they get.

[seabeyond]

31. you need to walk this post into that church adn let the minister read. and wait for a reply. nt

[raccoon]

34. I was thinking something similar, that the OP write a letter to the minister of that church.

But I think your idea is better.

[kevinbgoode]

35. Thank you for this story. Unfortunately, I have seen this behavior far too often. . .

. . .and the arrogant, self-righteous attitudes the radiate from those peole who would treat a grieving son (who made so many sacrifices for his family) so badly.

This is so symbolic of the outrageous pain society inflicts on gay Americans. I've seen it more times than I care to recall, and it affects those on the receiving end permanently. We can see it in the lack of compassion among this aunt's church members, or in the lying words that fly so easily out of self-proclaimed "Christians" on television and the radio. The people who will smile while they stab others in the back - it is a behavior so deeply disturbing that it has made me skeptical of the motives of most people.

On the other hand, it has made that son so much more independent and strong as an individual. To spend a life enduring such pain and hardship, yet finding it within himself to still love his family and care for them, is something most of those church-goer peers of his aunt would never have the fortitude or the inner strength to be or do themselves. And so sometimes I prefer to believe their behavior stems not from their real lack of "Christian" love and faith, but their deep insecurity and understanding that the sight of a gay man so powerful and so caring puts their own inability to love others to shame.

[queenjane]

36. I am sitting here with tears in my eyes

What a wonderful, caring, generous man your cousin is. I hope he realizes this. I know his mother did. She raised that sterling individual, and she raised him well.

As an athiest in the south, I learned long ago that the most selfish, judgmental, homophobic and racist people were those who were waving that "christian" flag most vehemently. They were at church whenever the doors were open. Their lives revolved around it. They voted per the preacher's dictates. They prosletyzed constantly. They brimmed with rage, offense, and bile.

I hope your cousin finds a warm and welcoming community, and peace. I don't know where you live, but it sounds very southern. The hostility towards gay people still lies thick in the rural south like swamp miasma. All the gay friends I had growing up left long ago, with reason.

[mrs_p]

37. touching read, as always

I wish your cousin healing, and I wish I could make him a whole week's worth of casseroles.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. What a well told and moving story...

No commentary on the nature of the faith community needed. Best of everything to your cousin and to you.

[Fuzz]

39. How'd his brothers handle the situation?

[citizen blues]

86. They probably got the casseroles.....

[Snoutport]

123. I hadn't thought of that. That would be terrible.

[madrchsod]

40. they will be judged and found wanting....

her son will be given the right hand of god.


"..cannibal christians...they suffer so.."

[Chorophyll]

41. Beautifully written, sad, and infuriating.

Don't know how these "Christians" live with themselves. I really don't. They've certainly missed the point by a few thousand miles.

Thanks for this post and for all your posts, Snoutport.

[Snoutport]

270. ...

Thank you very much for the kind words. :0)

[bertman]

42. Compassion for 'The Enemy' isn't high on the list for those folks. Even though

I remember many passages in the so-called Good Book about doing good to those who despise you and loving everyone and not judging anyone.

REC.

[WatsonT]

43. Religion is a good way to justify prickish behavior

politics works as well.

[TwentyFive]

44. Please...tell your cousin not to spend two seconds thinking about these dolts.

Thank you for your posting.

Your cousin and his mother sound like wonderful people. Kind. And yes, Godly. Their only mistake was to "cast their pearls" in front of these Christian swine. These churches babble on endlessly about OTHER PEOPLE and their imagined sins. But the preachers NEVER talk about the sins prevalent in their OWN congregations....lest the hypocrite swine will leave, and take their donations with them. So, they show up every Sunday, eager to hear about how all the gays and liberals and young people having sex will have the wrath of God come down on them, and suffer for an eternity in damnation. They just eat this stuff up like the little piggies that they are. Oh sure, occasionally, the preacher might have a guilt sermon about the piggies enjoying a new car, yet failing to cough up enough into the collection plate...but I promise, that's about as far as it goes.

So, tell your cousin to go enjoy the rest of his life. Find a good guy that he can love. Enjoy his new condo...and do his best to forget about the little piggies and their mac and cheese dishes.

[DainBramaged]

45. Their God will judge them when it is their time, and for most of them, it will be sooner than later

:hug:

[sinkingfeeling]

46. I'm so sorry for your cousin. To lose his mother and then be snubbed is just awful.

[PADemD]

47. Could we send your cousin some cookies?

[Lex]

49. The pastor of her church should read your OP & then he will have a start for Sunday's sermon . . .

if he was worth anything.

[dickthegrouch]

224. My exact thoughts

Please send a link to this thread to the pastor of every church in the city, they are all equally culpable in this failure to minister to a grieving friend. Challenge them to read all of the OP (from the pulpit).

Their congregation's judgement is as inappropriate as their selfishness.

Shame the guilty, make it their problem to solve.

[Pooka Fey]

50. Me too, I wish him Godspeed.

Another example of so-called Christian people acting like tools.

I really depend upon that saying: "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness" - and your aunt's son shines like a candle. I hope he can find some comfort in his new community. Thanks for sharing this story.

[mimitabby]

51. I don't know if this will help or not

my grandmother was a lot like your aunt. She was a member of her church, she visited the sick, she helped out where she could. Then she got Lou Gehrig's disease and lost the ability to talk. She still dragged herself in to that church for 2 years before she finally gave up and started the business of dying. No longer attending church, she was bereft and lonely. No one from that church visited her. NO ONE. We finally started calling around to other churches of the same flavor. Only once got some guy to talk to her on the phone (pray with her, I suppose). We called her own church, the minister had a cold, they were busy with holidays, the excuses were pathetic.
One of the guys we found in the yellow pages said he would come out... he never made it.
Her wishes were that she would have a funeral on the other side of the country, thank goodness.
In her will there was money for that church, can you believe it? We gave it to a better charity.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

52. Cold, pretentious ...

...these people in that church are not "Christians".

[Bragi]

53. They are simply religion-damaged people /nt

[Greybnk48]

54. This letter should be printed in their local paper!

The behavior is so ignorant, cruel and mean-spirited they should not get a pass. How else will they learn? At the least the minister/pastor should be told that he and his congregation are all probably going to the hell they believe in because they're all a bunch of fuckers.

[rfranklin]

55. that is one sad commentary on the human race....

It makes me weepy. Snoutport please convey my condolences to your cousin and tell himhe is a g ood person.

[bongbong]

57. By their actions

By their actions, they are worshiping SOMETHING ... only not the person/metaphor/idea they think they're worshiping. Countless great men from Gandhi to William Burroughs have described (many, if not most) Xtians as the hypocrites and liars and thieves that they use their empty religious words to disguise.

[semillama]

58. That would make a great LTTE. n/t

[femrap]

59. Please send the minister of

her church a letter....or maybe just send him this post. He/she/they...the entire hypocritical bunch of 2-faced idiots....need to be told FLAT OUT how f*cking cruel, mean and evil their actions were.

I hope your cousin likes his new home...and finds some nice people to play with.

Fucking, stupid 'Xtians.'

Those church members will get a big piece of Karma in their laps.

Again, please send this post and comments to the minister.

[supernova]

60. Churches are like cliques

if you aren't in the "in" group... you're out. Unfortunately for your cousin, he wasn't either. I wasn't in it either. But I'm straight, btw. The ladies in the church were all older and had had similar lives together. .You just can't be a part of that no matter how hard you try. But if you aren't part of the group, they honestly don't know how to relate to you and ... importantly don't want or are afraid to learn.

It's sad and causes heartache for the one who is left out. :cry:

Your aunt sounds like an absolute peach. What I've learned over the years is that people like that just are. They don't do it for the recognition or the thanks or the expectation of reward. They simply enjoy helping in the moment because that's what's needed.

Your cousin sounds like a great guy and I wish I will find all the friends and loves he wants.

[Gormy Cuss]

61. Clean up the language and send that post to the pastor of her church. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. I agree.

An edited version, not just for language but for maximum impact, should be sent to the pastor of the church. I would pointedly ask what the pastor did to create an environment that inspired his congregation to shun one of God's children. I'm sure I'd find the way to insert the word 'shame' and a couple of passages of New Testament scripture as well.

[Divine Discontent]

106. I love your post and suggestions to the OP! I hope and pray to God they do just as you stated.

There are "true" Christians out there, tons of 'em, and Jesus Christ knows who they are. We as humans can only go by their actions, and if actions are what we have to use as verification, well, it doesn't look good for those in the congregation. I have often found that using the words like "shame", are very useful when applied. I hope the OP will do it, because what they wrote, then just cleaned up a bit, will be a powerful witness on the pastor.

[xchrom]

62. May Peace be with your cousin & your family at this difficult time.

a 'community' can make things easier or harder -- they've chosen to make it harder by not 'welcoming the stranger'.

as it was said upstream -- we do have the example to live by in the gospels.
and it's not difficult or hard to do -- they've just not done it.

[liberalhistorian]

63. I'm really sorry about this and the loss of your aunt.

If that had been my church, he would have had enough food and hugs for the rest of his natural life and on into the next, gay or not. Even those who don't agree with/approve of homosexuality would have gone out of their way to help; I know, 'cause they've done it. I'm sorry this church is such a poor excuse for Christians, but don't judge all of them by it.

I sure don't blame your cousin for wanting out of there, though, and having to deal with that cruelty on top of the loss of his beloved mother is just beyond shameful. God bless him for giving up his life and caring for her all those years (not everyone would do that) and I hope he's able to find at least some peace. I will certainly keep him and your family in my prayers.

[myrna minx]

64. Please give all of my best to your cousin. He sounds like such

wonderful man. I am so sorry for your the loss of such a wonderful, treasured person. :grouphug:

On edit - please send this to the paster/minister of her church.

[dembotoz]

65. sorry for you and your cousins number of loses

whenever i see support for faith bases this and faith based that i remember stories such as this.

[progressoid]

66. Reminds me of a man dying of AIDS in my hometown in the 80's

Actually he was even a minister. Other than a few family members and my parents, virtually no one would set foot in his house. It's rather deflating to see such actions from God's children.

:hug: snoutport :hug:

[Beacool]

117. Back then it was probably ignorance.

People were afraid that it could be contagious like the flu. They were scared of being around people with AIDS. People know better now and there's no excuse for their boorish behavior.

:(

[Enthusiast]

67. You are an

excellent story teller, Snoutport.

These so-called "Christians" are being bombarded with anti-gay rhetoric. Some of them are probably decent people that have been the victims of cruel manipulations. This is a group of people not known for thinking outside the box to begin with so they are vulnerable. Bigotry is on the rise and it is being encouraged.

[felix_numinous]

70. This would make an excellent editorial in the local paper.

Please share this story with as many people as possible, your writing is excellent.
:hug:

[dbackjon]

72. crying here - thanks for sharing

[planetc]

73. Your cousin has clearly observed the commandment to "Honor thy father and mother"

He obviously provided the best quality of life for his mother in the last years of her life by giving up much of his own life to take care of her. He has been a better Christian than, I'm afraid, his mother's entire congregation.

As a person who was a practicing Catholic and Episcopalian for about 20 years, this behavior embarrasses me for that congregation.

Your cousin is invited to dinner at my house because I don't know of a decent recipe for anything that would survive being mailed 1000 miles. I will introduce him to my mother, who is 93 and can't walk well, but who is otherwise extremely feisty. And I will bake him the best cake recipe I have. This is a serious invitation. I would like him to know that his good Christian work is recognized and saluted, and his grief for his mother is understood and honored.

[divvy]

75. Hands down, the nastiest people I have ever met were Christians.

I have met some who seem to live a christian life, but the majority have been conservative ass holes.

[Arugula Latte]

90. I think a lot of those types almost think they have a license to be a-holes

because they think they are superior because they know the "real deal" and that they will be "forgiven" no matter how shittily they act during their lives.

[Lifelong Protester]

76. First, my condolences to you, and your cousin

Second, I just have to say, this kind of action (or inaction) makes me suspicious of anyone who 'displays' or 'proclaims' their Christianity too loudly. It's the actions, not the words or symbolic displays, that determine if someone is following the Lord's commandment, His only one, to love one another. LOVE.

LOVE thy neighbor.

Tell your cousin there are many of us here on DU that admire his kindness and devotion to his mom. And we don't give a rat's you know what about anyone's sexual orientation.

[FunMe]

77. Sorry for you loss

And thank you for sharing. Sad to her that in the year 2011, we are still dealing with people like this. I don't even bother to call those people "Christians". It's more like CHINOs ... Christian In Name Only.

As Ghandi once said:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

If they truly are Christians, they would follow the words of Christ:
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" I John 4:20

LOVE is always more powerful than hate. And trust me, those who hate always live miserable lives while those who LOVE get so many more rewards than they realize despite people like those at that church,

[DollyM]

243. I like what you posted . . .

Just one more thing to add . . . Love NEVER fails (1 Corinthians 13)

(I did want to add that not everyone who says they are a Christian is one. It's something to hide behind for many people. That is why we left the ministry, yes, my husband and I are both Bible college graduates, but we felt we could do more good fullfilling Christ's mission by being on the "outside" rather than being regimented and strangled on the inside. We have never regretted that decision and feel that God blessed us for doing it.)

[Irishonly]

81. I am sorry, Snoutport

I cannot understand people like the ones you are describing. I am sending your cousin and all of your family hugs. Your aunt was one of the special people that it would have been an honor to know.

[proud patriot]

82. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your aunt

Sending love strength and virtual hockey pucks.

[cate94]

83. I am sorry for your loss.

I am also sorry for your cousins loss, and terribly sad for the inhumanity shown to him. He sounds like a truly great human being.

I wish I could send him a casserole or a hug.

You are truly a gifted writer Snoutport. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[chrisa]

85. The new Christianity in America:

- Jesus was white and was born in the Midwest. He was a lot like John Wayne.
- Thou shalt beat people while they are down, because financial problems are only because of irresponsibility. If you're poor, just create a small business and get rich. If you fail, there's something wrong with you and you deserve to be poor.
- Thou shalt judge everyone around you, especially based on what material goods they have.
- Thou shalt be as unfriendly and uncharitable as possible.
- Thou shalt snub anybody who is even slightly different.
- And, most importantly, thou shalt give lots of money to the church. No questions asked.

[KT2000]

88. Not exactly the same

but I attended the funeral for a friend who worked at her church and made it the center of her life. She was a smoker and she died of throat cancer.
The church people who spoke talked mainly about the fact that she was a smoker. Others got up to talk about the fact they helped her move into low income houseing.
No one mentioned that when she was diagnosed with cancer the church laid her off and she lost her health insurance.

[redwitch]

91. He is a super good son.

And I am sorry that sorry bunch of nonChristians are so unfeeling. How truly despicable.

[Dappleganger]

92. How horribly damaging some people can be...

but unfortunately the church's response isn't surprising. This is one of many reasons I am no longer part of a physical church any longer. I do know that in our area there are a few churches who embrace everyone, but they are quite a drive from our home (at least it is something).

I am so sorry for your loss, too. You were lucky to have such a wonderful aunt who loved you for yourself.

:hug:

[Love Bug]

94. You should send a copy of this to your Aunt's pastor

Nothing may come of it but at least he'll know how "Christian" his congregation is. Your aunt deserved so much better than this and so did your cousin. Shame on the whole lot of them.

If not the pastor, then maybe to the editor of the town newspaper (names changed, of course).

[citizen blues]

95. I experience much of the same treatment....

when my mother died. I'm not gay. The issue in my case was that I'm not Mormon; she was. Well, more accurately, she was a "Jack Mormon" which means that she didn't follow all their edicts. My mother smoked and drank coffee. Unlike my grandmother who enrolled me in the church without my permission and repeatedly sent missionaries to my door, my mother didn't push her faith on me. She believed that each of us have our own paths to God and who was she to interfere with God's plan. She felt that it would be arrogant to judge someone else's beliefs or sexual orientation because judging was God's job and being less than perfect herself, she left that to him.

My mother took my cousin in to help her out. Her husband stayed there for a couple of months too before disappearing. They repaid her kindness with verbal abuse and stealing. The stress deteriorated my mother's health even further. I finally convinced my mother to get out of that house, out of that sh**-hole town in Utah, and away from my cousin. I had time off from work arranged and senior housing set up to move her into in January, but she went into the ICU with pneumonia in mid-December. Then I got the phone call. Her doctor said I needed to come. After not being able to get a flight out due to weather, I began a two-day trek across 3 states to get there. I was at my mother's bedside when she passed on Christmas Eve. Even her doctor said she had waited for my arrival to see me one last time.

Still living in my mother's house, my cousin got the casseroles and was even invited to spend Christmas in the home of another ward member. Me? I spent Christmas by myself in a hotel room planning a funeral. I don't think I have ever felt so alone. I buried my mother as quickly as I could so I could leave that nightmare behind.

Four and half years later, I'm still grieving the loss of the wonderful, loving woman my mother was. And I still can't speak to a Mormon missionary without the rage welling up.

I haven't considered myself any variety of Christian in many years. I'm agnostic. But my mother didn't judge me for that. She still loved and accepted me the way I am with the choices I've made. I often think of how much better this world would be if other religious people of all kinds were more like her.

Thank you for telling your cousin's story. Please express my deepest condolences to him and tell him that he's not alone. There are others of us out here who have faced similar treatment from religious hypocrites.

[canoeist52]

152. So sad about your mother.

Planning a funeral alone has to be the worst, and not how it should be.

Welcome to DU and I hope you're living in a more loving environment now.

[Uncle Joe]

98. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for sharing Snoutport.

[Blasphemer]

102. I am sorry for your loss and your cousin's pain

The tragedy of this story is that it speaks to the worst of humankind. In this particular instance it involves religious intolerance but callousness and hatefulness is in no short supply in the world we live in. I will always remember this story and the next time a family member asks why I am not religious, why I won't embrace their religion and why I "became" an atheist, I will tell them this story and explain that religion has nothing to do with goodness or morality and with our without it, a person can choose to practice right living.

[libodem]

103. Thanks for sharing

Snouty, your story is a sad reminder, of why all that "faith-based", charity started by
Bush should be secular.

[Jim_Shorts]

104. Isn't it mainly religion the #1 reason why people are conned to vote republican ?

My ex-in-laws were extremely religious and staunch republicans. They hated gays, even though I don't think they knew any. They only watched fox news, despised the Kennedy's and thought George Bush was the smartest guy they ever saw. (one son named his own son Walker)

It seems to me that a lot of christians think they must vote republican to show their complete devotion. It has to be coming from the pulpit.

(they should only tax exempt charity work a church does)

[dawg]

130. No, it isn't religion it's prejudice.

Mostly against blacks, but also gays and immigrants. That has always been the lever the powerful has used to get the masses to support authoritarian rule.

Religion is just their way of assuaging their guilty consciences. If they can find a way to make their hateful feelings "holy" then they don't have to feel guilty - and deep down, all but the worst of these types feel guilty for their hate and bigotry.

[Jim_Shorts]

162. Thanks for the insight

I'll have to think about that for a while. To me liberal values are closer to most religious values and yet all the christians I know are repubs, so that would make some sense. Probably a lot of follow the leader too.

[SheilaT]

107. She accepted the people God put in her life.

If only everyone did that, this would be a much better world.

[proReality]

108. That left me crying.

But I understand why they did it because I'm surrounded by this type of "Christian" where I live and see things like this happening all the time. When it comes to them, the word Christian should be written in black, upside down.

Please let your cousin know that there are a lot of good people wishing him peace, happiness, and hoping he finds harmony. He needs to know there are people who care, even if we are strangers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. My deepest condolences to your cousin.

He must be a great guy, so dedicated to his mother.

I don't go to church. Anybody that tells me they are a Christian, I run like hell.

I go by how they act, not how they talk. Are they kind and compassionate? Yes, I will associate with them.

Do they just act self righteous and then shun me or you or your aunt? I walk away.

[1monster]

110. Give your cousin a big hug from me. Then copy and print this page and send

it to the pastor of that church. Along with this verse of Robert Burn's poem To A Louse:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!

Heck, send them the whole poem. May they see themselves as others see them.

On Seeing One on a Lady's Bonnet at Church

Ha! whare ye gaun' ye crowlin ferlie?
Your impudence protects you sairly;
I canna say but ye strunt rarely
Owre gauze and lace,
Tho faith! I fear ye dine but sparely
On sic a place.

Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon her--
Sae fine a lady!
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body.

Swith! in some beggar's hauffet squattle;
There ye may creep, and sprawl, and sprattle;
Wi' ither kindred, jumping cattle;
In shoals and nations;
Whare horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle
Your thick plantations.

Now haud you there! ye're out o' sight,
Below the fatt'rils, snug an tight,
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right,
Till ye've got on it--
The vera tapmost, tow'rin height
O' Miss's bonnet.

My sooth! right bauld ye set your nose out,
As plump an grey as onie grozet:
O for some rank, mercurial rozet,
Or fell, red smeddum,
I'd gie you sic a hearty dose o't,
Wad dress your droddum!

I wad na been surpris'd to spy
You on an auld wife's flainen toy
Or aiblins some bit duddie boy,
On's wyliecoat;
But Miss's fine Lunardi! fye!
How daur ye do't?

O Jeany, dinna toss your head,
An set your beauties a' abread!
Ye little ken what cursed speed
The blastie's makin!
Thae winks an finger-ends, I dread,
Are notice takin!

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea'es us,
An ev'n devotion!

[Fumesucker]

111. My sympathies and condolences

Deliberately and maliciously adding to someone's grief and pain on the loss of their mother is something I have a hard time contemplating without becoming angry.

[Divine Discontent]

112. Kick & Rec for your fine cousin! From a Gay Christian who praises the Lord for his actions!

This was truly touching, and yes, they were shameful, but your writing on behalf of your relative was superlative and loving, and is an honorable act before the Lord! You all show those in the church who did not care to show kindness, what it means to be a loving person. Being a Christian is a personal matter between Jesus and oneself, however BEHAVING like a good person is another thing! We are known by are actions, regardless of our beliefs, and it is obvious to me who were the ones who glorified the Lord in your story, and who did not.

Let your cousin know we are sorry for his great loss, but he is thought highly of!




JOHN 3:16 - WHO-SO-EVER believes shall not perish but have everlasting life
whosoever.org for Gay Christians - Lots of good articles and research info. Candace Chellew-Hodge is a great writer and hosts a podcast for the Whosoever Magazine

[Guilded Lilly]

113. My most heartfelt condolences.

[ClarkUSA]

114. I'm so sorry that happened to your dear loving cousin. You must hurt for him, too.

Your wonderful Aunt's legacy lives on through all of you good people. The circle of love within your family is special and unique. I am sure you all will sustain him through this sad time.

:hug:

[Beacool]

116. Screw them!!!

They are Christian in name only. I attend a Lutheran church and everyone is welcome. Our choir director is gay. He is also a wonderful organist and has a lovely baritone voice. The Episcopal church a block away has a large and very active gay group. It's the church that former governor McGreevey attends.

Where is this "great" church and what is their denomination? They should be ashamed of their behavior.

I'm terribly sorry for your cousin. He sounds like a lovely person and deserved better from this bunch of bigots. I hope that he can go back to his life by the beach and forget them. He was a good son and that's all that matters.

May your aunt rest in peace.

:pals:

[hifiguy]

119. Sad and sickening

I hope your dear cousin finds a place where he is appreciated for being the kind and good person he so clearly is. :hug:

[kestrel91316]

124. Jesus himself must be hanging his head in shame over the disgraceful

behavior of some of his most vocal fans.

Some people truly don't GET IT.

[stevenleser]

126. Absolutely disgusting behavior on the part of that town/church. I almost barfed when I read this

then I got MAD. Jerks.

[JitterbugPerfume]

127. so sad

that they treated him so badly .Your cousin is a better man than the lot of them.

[shireen]

131. when you see your cousin ....

please give him a hug for me :hug:
What a lovely human being. He deserves the best.

My deepest condolences to you and your family.
He had a wonderful mom, and you had a wonderful aunt. Older narrow-minded "Christians" in her community may not have got it, but I am sure some of their children did. They're not dumb; they know discrimination and hate when they see it. I grew up with some pretty negative influences, but my siblings and I broke away from it. So there's hope that some younger people learned something from your cousin -- they're just too young to make casseroles.

Hug for you too. :hug:

[InvisibleTouch]

133. Agree with all those who said...

...you should send this to the pastor, and also to the local paper. I don't have a problem with Christians, per se, if they were actually following their beliefs quietly and doing no harm. I have a huge problem with hypocrites. And hypocrites need to be hit over the head with their own ugliness.

[dawg]

134. So sad.

You cousin sounds like an exceptional man. It's their loss for not getting to know him better.

For what it's worth, I think the ladies at my small Southern Baptist church would have "casseroled" him until he could take no more.

[Poll_Blind]

136. Man, I'm so sorry to hear that. That's just heartbreaking and effed up.

I hate shit like that, I really do.

PB

[66 dmhlt]

145. Tell the minister & his congregation to read the Constitution

Because it's very clear that our First Amendment ...

Bans the Separation of Church and HATE

[66 dmhlt]

148. (Deleted repeat message)

[blackspade]

151. Fucking tragic.

Some folks just have no class.
He sounds like a really decent person in a world of less that decent people.

[canoeist52]

156. We care for one another as we would wish to be cared for.

This is the rule that my atheist family and friends have always lived by.

We don't need religion to be good to each other.

So sorry for your family's loss of a caring member.

[ohheckyeah]

157. How very sad for your cousin.

I'm so sorry he was treated this way. I, too, think you should send a letter to the pastor of the church.

[Arugula Latte]

158. Snoutport -- a question for you

Is there a way that DUers could send your cousin a little love?

[Book Lover]

163. Seconded

I would be happy to even send a card, if you didn't want to manage baked goods in the mails :-) Your cousin performed his duty, unstinting and uncomplaining, and not only should have, but is required to have honor shown to him. That came out wrong but I hope you know what I mean. I would be honored to recognize his performance of his filial duty.

[mitchtv]

159. great post , snoutport

my condolences to your cousin. Glad he left. Some Xians wouldn't recognize a beatitude if it bit tem on the nose.

[DFW]

160. So many un-Christian "Christians"

But going to church and spouting the gospel may make them "Christians" in their own eyes,
but it still doesn't make them very Christian. Wearing a New York Yankees uniform doesn't
make you a professional baseball player, either.

So many people are so obsessed with labels, these days. Some get entirely the wrong idea
when I say I'm conservative. What I mean is, I am still married to my first wife (30 years
next year), do no addictive drugs, not even nicotine or alcohol, have no debts--you know,
conservative with a small "c" and no article before it. I'm conservative, but don't ever
get the idea that I'm "a" conservative.

Your cousin discovered that his mom was living in a town of people, each of whom was "a Christian,"
but none of whom were Christian.

[LittleGirl]

161. I read this earlier and can't stop thinking about it.

Good thing he had the means to move 1000 miles away from that hell hole of a small town. Best thing he could do these days.

I can't wait for the day when Gays can live freely without prejudice and scorn. I have two cousins that are gay. One is living the life and very happy now that he's open and accepted himself. The other, is in denial and has ballooned up to unhealthy obesity levels and is miserable. Still hasn't come out to her family except to the cousin that is gay. He told her to stop denying it. He's 57, she's 27.

I keep thinking about Gaga's song - born this way.

Good Luck to him. What a wonderful person he is. Hugs.

[BlueDemKev]

168. You need to condense this and send it as a letter to the editor in your aunt's town.

...that would put those people to shame.

[Liberal_in_LA]

169. Do people still do that sort of thing? Bring food. For a recent death, we contributed $$

for the family

[colorado_ufo]

171. This made me cry.

I wish he were here; I would make sure he got the best dinner he ever ate.

[Maat]

172. Next time you see him - give him a hug from our family.

We wish him the best, and are very sorry for his loss.

[secondwind]

173. I have read many moving posts in DU over the past few years. But this one left me speechless.

Some Christian folks are SO up tight and so self-conscious, they just don't MOVE. They are like ROCKS.

It's too bad they could not find a way to tell this fella what they had thought of his mother.

This is disgusting.

[krispos42]

175. Poignet.

And I probably misspelled it, and I don't care. :cry:

[CrispyQ]

180. A heart wrenching post.

May your beautiful aunt rest in peace.

Positive thoughts & a :hug: for your beautiful cousin.

[dddem]

181. Beautiful tribute to your Aunt and your cousin.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the people who claim to be close to God know or do, all that matters is that God knows. And God knows he made your Cousin in His image. Just like He made us all in His image (although in my case, His image could stand to lose a few pounds).
And believe it or not, your cousin has been so blessed in his life - to have a Mom like your Aunt, and you to stand by him. He will be ok, because he will realize all this, once the sadness lifts.
God bless you both!
Peace.

[bluestate10]

182. I am not gay. You and your cousin are welcome to my city any day. nt

[UpInArms]

184. I am so very sorry -

for the loss of your aunt - for your cousin's pain

:cry:

but here - let us share this

:grouphug:

[Zoeisright]

185. Yep, that fits right in with the "christians" I know.

Bigoted, mean, ignorant, cruel, and selfish.

[patrice]

186. The petty stuff can be so exquisitely painful. Everyone showed for the funeral, because that was

public. Gotta put on a good "Christian" show, you know, but in the private matter of when many/most of those people quite possibly considered something like, "Should I take something yummy for her son & tell him of my personal regard for her?" decided, instead, to express their prideful indignation at his "difference" from them by dealing a vulnerable hurting person more pain and probably took not inconsiderable pleasure at the opportunity to do so.

This is another instance of blasphemy so clear in their assumption that it is THEIR responsibility not only to judge others, and not themselves by the way since they ARE the Righteous, but also to punish that person as painfully as possible for not bowing to their "divine" power. Just like those who crucified Jesus.

People who do that are not Christians and I really do hope true Christians will someday stand up and take their church back, if only to reclaim their own relationships to a living Lord Jesus and ALL of his Loved Ones.

[rbnyc]

187. I just wanted to check in and say...

...I was moved by this very sad story. Thanks for sharing it with us. I wish your awesome super-gay cousin all the best.

[etherealtruth]

188. My heart goes out to your cousin ...

K and R (312+) .... so that everyone continues to have a chance to read this

[atreides1]

189. Because

They are religious people, but definitely not Christian!!!

[alarimer]

190. Most Christians are in fact not Christian.

You aunt met the definition but those other people most certainly do not. Like Gandhi said "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

[Firebrand Gary]

191. "I like your Christ, however your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

This is very sad. I'd make that guy a Thankgiving style dinner if he lived in California.

[sunwyn]

192. Clearly he is a better Christian than anyone else at that church. Best of luck to him. He deserves h

[Firebrand Gary]

193. If you set it up for your cousin, I'd be happy to send a gift card.

Just let me know, we can work out the details. No one should be left alone in a time of loss.

[OwnedByFerrets]

194. So very sorry

195. My sympathy to you, my rage at the so-called Christians who snubbed your cousin.

I joined this forum just to comment on this post.

I live in a small southern town much like the one you described. I have seen the same sort of behavior aimed at people "outside the flock." I wish I could express my encouragement to your cousin... he deserved so much more.

[dddem]

209. Welcome to DU

Towns in the Northeast can be much the same, except with snow. :)

215. Thanks, dddem.

I've learned a lot in my lifetime, and one of the things I've learned is that bigotry isn't just a southern phenomenon.

[lunasun]

196. nasty asses ...they know what they are doing...not an oversight IMO

[YellowRubberDuckie]

198. You need to write that church a letter and tell them exactly what they are...

...then quote scripture at them.
If Jesus were real, he would be PISSED OFF at this behavior. You should have everyone you know write a letter to these assholes. Give the address and I will write a hand written letter to these twisted assholes.
Please send my love and well wishes to your cousin. He sounds like a wonderful human being, just like his mother. I hope he finds comfort and peace.
I wish more people would base the way they feel about others on the strength of their character and the love in their heart instead of who someone happens to fall in love with or what they look like. Shallow Bastards.
:grouphug:
Duckie

[demigoddess]

199. I can just feel how proud his mom must have been of him!!!

give him hugs and kisses from all of us.:grouphug:

[madokie]

200. Damn damn damn

and theres those who think that being gay is a choice and can be fixed, sounds like the church folk there maybe were that kind of thinkers for the most part. I'm sure the move will be good for him. I'm the same age and I couldn't imagine living the rest of my life around that kind of people and wouldn't want to see someone else have to do it.

[Initech]

204. I left my church because I got tired of their needless judging.

It's horrifying what that does to people, it sucks that shit like that happens.

[Ignis]

205. You've nailed it: Words are cheap. Actions matter.

So sorry for your cousin's loss. :(

[GreenPartyVoter]

206. My younger son saw me crying as I read this and gave me a big hug. I explained the

post to him, and he agrees with me. People should be kind and compassionate to each other.

Here is a :hug: for you and your cousin.

[Flying Dream Blues]

207. I'm so sorry he had to go through this, Snoutport.

I wish we could all send him love and good wishes. If there's a way to do that, let us know. I always love what you write, but this one really made me cry. Wishing I could make it right. Love to you and your cousin.

:hug:

[Helga Scow Stern]

208. What a great letter to the editor of this town's paper this would make. n/t

[dsc]

210. I am so sorry for this

I nearly cried reading it this morning.

[AmBlue]

211. THIS is a big part of why I don't attend church anymore.

The hypocrisy and judgmental nature of so many who claim to want to "serve the Lord" is devastating, and hurtful. And I've seen far too much of it. The Bible says, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," and "Judge not lest ye be judged." Your cousin is a MUCH finer Christian than ANY of those that left him alone and uncared for in his time of need.

Underneath the false "Godliness" that so many Christians profess, I believe there is a seething disdain for anyone who is "other" than them, and they feel unequivocally qualified to rain that judgment down on anyone.

It's also what scares me to death about the conflation of American-style Christianity and the Republican Party. They want to rule our country, our bodies and our very lives by their holier-than-thou religious beliefs, cramming it down all our throats and expect everyone to fall in line-- or be thrown in jail, or worse.

I say this with sincere apologies to any true Christians out there... you know who you are. I use to teach 3rd grade Sunday School and grew up attending church, but I just won't be a part of it anymore. I'm done.

[stuntcat]

212. shame on them

oh all I can do is sigh...

Strength to him. All that matters there are him and his Mom.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

217. I wish I could bring your cousin a casserole.

What a very sad story - but your cousin has clearly demonstrated who the real "Christian" is. I agree with others that the OP, with a little editing, should be sent to that church's pastor. Or go to that church some Sunday morning and hijack the sermon by reading it to the whole congregation? Not sure how much good it would do - but it might make a few people think a little bit...?

[lonestarnot]

218. That is just fucking disgusting. I could just broom all those bastards!

[Bryn]

220. What a Blessing your Aunt was!

Give your cousin a big hug from me. There are many of us who care. I am so sorry he got a bad deal from those so called Christians. When my mother was diagnosed with dementia, people from her church never came to help me out with her, bring food, etc. even though she was a member of that church, helped to build it, helped people for years. It's very shameful!

[polly7]

221. The cruelty of those people must have been for him like kicks to an

already broken heart. My own heart hurts reading this.

I wish him all the best too, and hope he realizes their selfishness and bigotry has nothing to do with him, it's they who are damaged. He was strong, loyal, generous, loving, selfless, and his mother's angel on earth. That is how he should think of himself, screw those people .... they don't deserve a second more of his thoughts.

I'm so sorry for him, and you.

RIP to your Dear Auntie.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[kwassa]

222. I am sorry for your loss. But .......

Churches are human organizations. Sometimes they are responsive to the community needs, often they are not.

I go to a very nice church that is going through some transitions.

Last year I had a heart attack. My wife reached out for help during the time I was in a hospital. We got nothing, nada, zilch, despite our own casserole contributions in the past.

At that time, the best pastoral visit I got in the hospital was from the assistant rector. She is gay, openly gay.

My longtime experience with churches is this; they are run, very imperfectly, by volunteers, sometimes a very small core of volunteers who are overworked. Priests are, by their very nature, right-brained and are often very weak in organizational and administrative skills, though there are exceptions, and tend not to cover this base.

Some times a group that has been there for years becomes inactive, or there are personality wars, or other changes within the church.

Maybe what happened to your cousin was homophobia. Maybe it was something else.

[Solly Mack]

225. Sending warm thoughts and love

I'm so sorry for the hate your cousin received.

My deepest sympathies to your family.

[Odin2005]

227. Damn, just, just Damn.

:(

[closeupready]

228. Sounds familiar. His story needn't apply only to super-gays, though I understand your point.

Most of us from small towns know we have to get out of those places from the time we are even children, yes.

[alphafemale]

229. I believe I remember posting about your aunt and cousin when he first began caring for her.

He sounds like such a wonderful, compassionate human being.

I'm sorry he was treated that way.

Bigoted, hateful people miss out on much kindness and friendship.

too fucking bad for them

[gateley]

230. Tell him to PM me his address, and I'll send him a casserole and

whatever else he wants. I wish I could just hold him. :(

[cpamomfromtexas]

231. Breaks my heart for your family. We've experienced the snubs too

for different reasons.

Mind you we were one of about 6 families that started the church and a whole 80 members (half kids).

3 family surgeries, a deployed husband, 3 small kids, and severe injuries that lasted 6 months and not a call until someone needed a volunteer.

I decided we were a paycheck to them.

Funny thing, after we decided not to return, I saw the preachers wife and she told me "her husband only made $30,000 last year".

Odd, if they had once, just once, called to check on any one of the family members, he could have made much more.

WE CHANGED CHURCHES!

[urbuddha]

232. So sorry for your cousin. My Buddhist Center has several LGBT people and it is all good.

That's the way it should be. We should all be treated with compassion.

[Snoutport]

241. I was raised to be giving to those who are in need or are hurt.

I just don't understand the selfishness in religion these days.

[Smilo]

234. These were not true Christians

just so many charlatans posing in Christian clothing.

My heart goes out to your cousin - may he find the love and friendship he deserves.

And what a great couple your Aunt and Uncle must have been - they are the real definition of Christians and Jesus would be proud of them.

[Taverner]

242. no...true...scotsman...

[krabigirl]

267. Yes they were. For many people, Christian is just a name for an exclusive club.

Sorry.

[cilla4progress]

236. What a moving story, compellingly written,

and thank you for sharing. Godspeed and love to your blessed cousin.

[Honeycombe8]

238. How sad. What horrible people. If I'd been there, I would've brought him food...

and I would've BOUGHT it, not cooked it (just to make sure it was good).

I've seen similar actions by so-called "good Christians." Truth is, those kinds of people aren't good at all.

[GarH]

244. re christians

My favorite t-shirt says "I believe in seperation of church and hate". I get more thumbs up from people about that t-shirt than any other.

[Divine Discontent]

250. and Christians I know like that saying, too. There's an obvious difference in Fundamentalists who

are so backwards archaic and hate progressive thought, and the liberal believers on a Democratic website (and like the ones in the wonderful OP you are replying to about the good son losing his dear mom). Liberals have good hearts generally speaking, regardless of whatever they believe or don't believe. It's the conservative mind that puts boundaries and does the crappy behaviors we saw in this person's story.

[Marcel]

263. super gay?

Sorry but this is very insulting to the GLBT community. I used to find you mildly entertaining and thought that you had a great imagination but you crossed a line with this post.

[Rhythm]

265. Yeah... WTF?!

[mstinamotorcity]

264. It doesn't matter.

He did as he should have. His love and respect for his mother is worth more than all the f--king mac-n-cheese dishes those religious zealots can make. I see a son not a super gay son, a son. Who wanted his mother's transition to be filled with Love, Peace, and Familiarity.. Those so-called folk at the church, are better looked at as folk in the church. I wish your cousin all the blessings and luck there are to be received. he has been truly dutiful. that does not go unrewarded. You will see. When you put good out, it finds its way back to you.