"Norwegian broadcaster is saying that 20-30 kids may have been killed at youth camp outside Oslo"

[Hissyspit]

KeithOlbermann: RT @NickKristof: The Norwegian broadcaster is saying that 20-30 kids may have been killed at the youth camp outside Oslo. Just horrifying.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Is gun violence even the least bit common in Norway?

I don't know much about guns in that area. Is even possessing them legal?

[TheWraith]

7. Firearms are severely regulated, handguns even more so.

Automatic weapons are completely outlawed, other firearms are only allowed for government-approved reasons such as hunting, never for self defense. As usual though, most crimes are committed with stolen or illegally manufactured weapons.

[Renew Deal]

8. Norway is #31 in murder rate as of 2006

According to nationmaster. That's pretty high.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Here's something about "Gun Politics in Norway." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

Seems that guns are fairly available there with a few restrictions.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Thanks for the links!

I guess I just find this event really "out of the blue." I really do appreciate the info. You may want to keep it on hand as others may ask, and more still will claim to know but be dead-fucking wrong about the laws there. The links will come in handy.

[Renew Deal]

12. I think it needs perspective too

Although it's high relative to the rest of the world, it's still pretty low.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. I agree. But an event of this magnitude must be a shock to the Norwegians.

It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.

[indurancevile]

52. it's low relative to the rest of the world. 5 murders per million people = .5 per 100,000.

us = 9.1 per 100,000.

[indurancevile]

51. norway's murder rate is low, not high. look more carefully.

the rate is given as 5.384 murders per million people.

that's low, not high. It's .5 murders per 100,000 people.

us homicide rate = 9.1 per 100,000 people.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_ove_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop


that list doesn't include every country. it's just countries that report by million.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Thanks for that - I think I've found an up-to-date source for many countries

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html

The first link - Homicide statistics, Criminal Justice Sources - Latest available year (2003-2008) - is a spreadsheet.

It has, for intentional homicide per 100,000 people:
Norway 0.6 (2007)
and for comparison, a few other countries:
Mexico 11.6 (2008)
USA 5.2 (2008)
Canada 1.7 (2008)
England & Wales 1.2 (2008)
Sweden 0.9 (2008)
Switzerland 0.7 (2008)
Austria 0.5 (2007)
Japan 0.5 (2008)

[Zax2me]

19. Islamic Jihad strikes. Again. Claims responsibility.

And we are at fault because Islamic terrorism was the first thing we thought of when the story broke.
Geez.

[mwrguy]

24. In other words: Religious Conservatives

of a particular stripe.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hissyspit]

40. Knee-jerk assumption much?

[Hissyspit]

35. No.

Having an initial natural assumption and stating that assumption as fact at the expense of critical thinking are two different things.

[Renew Deal]

44. You're the first person I've heard say this is Islamic Jihad.

[Broderick]

2. Bodies all over

[aquart]

3. Who's angry in Norway?

[slackmaster]

9. You get three guesses, and the first two don't count

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-oslo-explosion-20110723,0,2369807.story

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/22/oslo-bomb-suspicion-islamist-militants

[riderinthestorm]

15. An Islamic jihad group is claiming responsibility

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1548140

[Diclotican]

20. aquart

aquart

More afraid, than angry at this moment.. But I belive I might be more angry, when the fear subside.. But in all this it is important to be calm, and to do it right.. And not let the fear rule the day..

This was a horribe act, that made by cowards, and pepole who dosen't have the "balls" to do anything else.. They should be hold accountable for what they did - in a court of law, not in a cell on Gitmo.. And in Norway, we dosen't excecute our prisoners, we keep them for rest of their life..

Diclotican

[Hissyspit]

32. Diclotican

Good to see you here. Sorry for the circumstances.

[Diclotican]

41. Hissyspit

Hissyspit

Thank you, Im safe.. And anyone I care for is safe.. This is a horrible act of terror.. And for the moment we dosen't know a lot of what happend, or what the things they used to blow it all up.. This wil take maybe years to find out everything

But at least, we are safe, even tho the recoils of what happend today are not over for a long time...

Diclotican

[riderinthestorm]

34. I am so sorry about the tragedy in your country. I hope they find everyone

involved in such terrible events and lock them away forever. What a disaster of huge proportions for Norway. Have you ever experienced terrorism on this scale before?

:cry: :cry: :hug:

[Diclotican]

42. riderinthestorm

riderinthestorm

No, we have never experienced this type of attac's before.. In fact I belive it is the first time in modern time, at least since world war 2.. over 60 year ago... Whatever happend in Norway today, wil never be forgotten.. This is a disaster of huge propoptions for Norway... :cry:


Diclotican

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I am sorry this happened in your country

And I hope it does not lead to a closing of the society, like in the US.

[Diclotican]

43. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

Hopefully Norway wil not be like US did.. But I am sure that common security wil be stronger in government offices when this is over..

Diclotican

[aquart]

49. I think Norway's leader said:

"We will respond to this attack on our democracy by having more democracy."

[Diclotican]

56. aquart

aquart

Thats right.. And this is a strong message to all of us, and to the world at large. Trow your worst at us, and we wil still be a peacefull, democratic country maybe even a more democratic and peacefull nation in the future, than today..

This is a horrible day, but Norway wil prevail, and be stronger than ever before.. When chatastrope happend, we tend to show how strong we really are..

Diclotican

[aquart]

48. I am glad yours are safe. But in the coming days

as identities are known, you will find out that there are people who know people you know whose lives are forever changed.

As a New Yorker, I can tell you that your country is in shock and will be for days or weeks. That there will be a period in which you snarl at each other after a period of being so carefully kind...

And that I think you already know that the best thing you can do now is to treat yourself and others very very well, because, years from now, it will be remembering the kindness that will bring the tears again.

And you will never forget. Your people are safe but all of you are wounded and there will be a scar. Time now divides by this awful day.

New York received the kindness and love of the world, and it is that which is in my eyes now. Please know that we remember. Please know that we wish that same kindness and love to envelop all of Norway now, that we are holding you in your grief from as far away as we are. And we know how it feels.

[Diclotican]

55. aquart

aquart

Norway is a small country, and I know pepole who know people who was on Utøya when the attac happend there... But thankfully he managed to leave the island, and swim over to the mainland.. So yes, allready the lifes of many is forever changed.. As the moment, more than 84 pepole is killed, killed by this madmen, and we dosen't know how many are still out there at the island, wounded or killed by this madness...

This is a shock who who is just starting to sink into us all here in Norway.. Most of us, are for the moment gluet to the TV, to watch and try to get information.. And hopefully we can be closer after this, than we was before. We are to small a country, to be divided.. Today we need to be more close than ever before. To show comfort, and to asure that we are still a country, where still is a democracy.. What we need is Calm heads, warm heads, and do our best to secure everyone who is been hurt by this..

This is something that we never wil forget, and I think it is important to be kind to eatch other today, and in the weeks, months, and maybe years to come. This is just horrible to experience.. But we have to use this, to be strong, and to protect the values we care for and hold dear.. Now it is maybe more important than ever to protect the values and hold dear...

Most of us know alleready, that many in New York care for us now, and understand what we goes true, maybe on a deeper level than before.. As we might understood more now, what you was experience when New York City was attaced by extremists.. This is a grief that wil be with us for a long time. But we wil be strong, and care for eatch other..

Diclotican

[aquart]

57. This is a grief that will be with you forever.

But for shorter bits, longer intervals. Don't expect it to ever go away completely.

What I learned from 9/11 is that after the disaster, whoever is alive keeps on living. And all the little things of life still have to be done. That is actually a wonderful thing to know. People who haven't gone through it suspect that everything will stop, but nothing stops.

I now know for a certainty what I will do, what my city will do, in a time of trial. Like Chicago after the fire. San Francisco after the earthquake. We know that we run to help each other.

And that is also a wonderful thing to know. But I am so sorry that you are finding it out this way.

[malaise]

4. The two attacks are coordinated

and are attacks on the Norwegian Labour Party.
The Prime Minister was supposed to speak at the camp tomorrow.
The man arrested is Norwegian and Nordic.

I'm sure many of the youngsters drowned trying to swim off the island and escape the lunatic with the automatic weapon

[DianaForRussFeingold]

5. OMG, This is so very sad!

:cry: My heart goes out to the Norwegian people...

[Quixote1818]

6. The PM was going to speak at the camp from what I hear. nt

[CaliforniaHiker]

10. Tragic (nt)

[Dappleganger]

14. Hoping this isn't true. :(

[Hissyspit]

16. Reuters: FLASH: #Oslo police say nine, perhaps 10 people killed in shooting near Oslo

Just Tweeted...

[get the red out]

17. Murdering Children

Truly evil and cowardly.

[WillowTree]

36. And then, of course, there was the massacre at Beslan in Russia.

I don't care what color they are or what group or religion they adhere to, and I don't care what their reasons are or who they claim wronged them how, the people who do these things are just savages.

I can't stop crying for those poor babies. May they rest in peace.

[Betty Karlson]

18. Also: bomb destroyed the Ministry of Oil

King and prime-minister have been brought into secure location.

The youngsters were gathering for the annual summer conference of the ruling (Labour) party. A Muslem of Norwegian appearance, dressed as a policeman, opened fire.

This is probably about Libya, where Norway is playing a major role.

Norway has been influential in the Oslo agreements between Palestine and Israel.

Oslo is the fastest growing city in Europe. 1,4 milion people live in its metropolitan area. Norway's total population is less than 7 milion. Most of the country's Muslems (2 % of total population) live in or around Oslo.

Norway has, up to this day, never experienced much terrorism.

[riderinthestorm]

21. Are you also hearing that it's an Islamic group or is this a knee jerk American reaction?

I am so sorry for your country. This is truly a terrible, terrible disaster for Norway!

[Zax2me]

27. The knee jerk American reaction is 'what? who would do this?'

While the rest of the world says ' Hey, American idiots - ofcourse it was Islamic terrorists - wake the hell up!"

[Hissyspit]

28. You don't know who did it.

You remind me of the people who assumed Okla. City bomber was dark-skinned and foreign.

[malaise]

54. You might want to apolgize to Muslims everywhere

:puke:

[AverageJoe90]

22. Who in the hell did this?!?!?!?!?

[socialshockwave]

23. Who else?

Extremist Muslims, who hate how women have rights and people have the freedom to choose another religion other then their monolithic bloc.

(From what I've heard an Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility. The male students must have been sitting too close to the female students or God forbid, were talking to them!)

[Hissyspit]

30. Yes. Everyone assumed Okla. City bomber was foreign, too.

We don't know who did it, yet.

[riderinthestorm]

31. There is an Islamic jihad group claiming responsibility according to the NYTimes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1548140

[Hissyspit]

33. And I've heard that it has been retracted, too.

We will know for sure eventually.

[riderinthestorm]

38. I just heard that too. I bumped up that thread with the retraction

update posted by muriel vogelstranger.

In fairness, the retraction is coming several hours after the group initially claimed responsibility so those of us who have been on for a while are getting the story as it comes out. Since the initial report was the NYTimes, it was credible at the time (imho)

[Hissyspit]

39. I understand.

The truth is we don't know who did this until we pretty much know who did this.

[AverageJoe90]

47. It IS possible...........

....that this could have been like Okla. City and entirely carried out by domestic terrorists.

[Prometheus Bound]

50. Who else, you say?

How about extremist, anti-Muslim nutcases.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hissyspit]

29. Bullshit.

You don't know who did it.

[Apollo11]

45. It looks like this could be a home-grown extreme-right lone-wolf attack

According to BBC:

Norway has been hit by twin attacks - a massive bomb blast in the capital and a shooting attack on young people at a governing Labour Party youth camp.

At least seven people were killed in the bombing, which inflicted huge damage on government buildings in Oslo.

At least 10 more died at the camp, on an island outside Oslo, police say. One witness said he had seen 20 bodies.

Police arrested the suspected gunman at the camp and the government have confirmed that he is Norwegian.

Norwegian media reports said the shootings on the island, on the Tyrifjorden lake, were carried out by a man in police uniform.

Police later said that he was also linked with the bomb attack. Reports described him as tall and blond.

The prime minister and justice minister have declined to speculate on a motive behind the attack but police are saying that they believe the car bomb and the shooting are linked and that they have a suspect in custody from Utoeya.

The ministers are confirming he is Norwegian. During the day, after an initial focus on an al-Qaeda link, the possibility of domestic extremism increasingly came into focus.

The choice of targets - government buildings and a political youth rally - suggested a possible political agenda rather than the mass casualty approach typically employed by al-Qaeda.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14256712

On BBC TV in the UK, Newsnight (started 10 minutes ago) is going with the home-grown theory.

The Mayor of Oslo says it was probably a "crazy man". Journalists are speculating as to whether the perp may have had any real-world or online links with anarchist or neo-Nazi groups.

[Apollo11]

46. BBC is comparing this guy with Timothy McVeigh

Frank Gardner (BBC Security Correspondent) is talking on BBC World News TV, saying this looks like domestic terrorism.