College Students Using 'Sugar Daddies' To Pay Off Loan Debt

[Pryderi]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/29/seeking-arrangement-college-students_n_913373.html

A month prior, faced with about $15,000 in unpaid tuition and overdue bills, Taylor and her roommate typed "tuition," "debt," and "money for school" into Google. A website called SeekingArrangement.com popped up. Intrigued by the promise of what the site billed as a "college tuition sugar daddy," Taylor created a "sugar baby" profile and eventually connected with the man from Greenwich. ("Taylor" is the pseudonym she uses with men she meets online. Neither she nor any of the other women interviewed for this article permitted their real names be used.)

In her profile on the site, Taylor describes herself as "a full-time college student studying psychology and looking to meet someone to help pay the bills." Photos on the site show her in revealing outfits, a mane of caramel-colored hair framing her face. But unlike other dating sites, where a user might also list preferred hobbies or desired traits, Taylor instead indicates preferences for a "sugar daddy" and an "arrangement" in the range of $1,000 to $3,000 a month.


Saddled with piles of student debt and a job-scarce, lackluster economy, current college students and recent graduates are selling themselves to pursue a diploma or pay down their loans. An increasing number, according to the the owners of websites that broker such hook-ups, have taken to the web in search of online suitors or wealthy benefactors who, in exchange for sex, companionship, or both, might help with the bills.

The past few years have taken an especially brutal toll on the plans and expectations of 20-somethings. As unemployment rates tick steadily higher, starting salaries have plummeted. Meanwhile, according to Jeffrey Jensen Arnett, a professor of psychology at Clark University, about 85 percent of the class of 2011 will likely move back in with their parents during some period of their post-college years, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.
-----

Isn't this prostitution?

[Mosby]

1. I don't think people here want to talk about this

Now if this was about Pres. Obama being a closet conservative that would be a whole different story.

[readmoreoften]

12. If Obama wasn't a closet conservative maybe women wouldn't have to sell their bodies for college.

I'm happy to talk about both simultaneously because they're connected.

[girl gone mad]

16. +1

[tammywammy]

41. How does Obama's actions influence the sex for tuition issue in the UK, France & Australia?

http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/Documents/Academia/Participation%20in%20sex%20work%20Roberts%202010%20Sex%20Education%20%2010(2)%20145.pdf

"The phenomenon appears to be international,
having been documented in the United Kingdom, the United States (Weitzer 2000),
Australia (Lantz 2004; Sedgeman 2004), and France (Duvall Smith 2006), where it has
been estimated that approximately 2% of students fund their studies through sex work."

[yellowcanine]

70. Quit using facts to undercut the opportunity to blame Obama.

I mean, everybody knows that college debt was no problem before Obama took office. :sarcasm:

[TwilightGardener]

74. Good Lord. Insanity reigns here.

[ecstatic]

94. Wow. Obama created prostitution?! Seek help nt

[TwilightGardener]

114. There is officially nothing they won't blame him for.

[Pigheaded]

124. What is wrong with renting

IT?

PH

[lukasahero]

130. "IT"?

That might be where the problem starts...

[LiberalFighter]

2. I would think so. And probably has been happening for years.

It's just easier to do.

[zazen]

7. it has been happening for years--it's often called "marriage"

If a woman chooses well, I'd assume it can be preferable to trying not to vomit while being penetrated by a grunting, sweating, pathetic, halitosis-stricken half-impotent man three times one's age.

Don't these men care that they're utterly, nauseatingly repulsive? Or do they think of these women they buy as corpses with no meaningful subjectivity to speak of? Stupid question--of course I know the answer.

[LiberalFighter]

9. That is not what I was referring to. College women in all likelihood

have been doing this for years. It may be happening more now with the cost being higher.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. I would think the internet makes a difference in how often this happens. Even if I had

come up with a plan to get through college this way, I would have had no idea how to go about it.

[TheMadMonk]

15. Point is, "these men" have the mark of success. Oh so Darwinian...

...for the genes to always "choose" a mate with the "right stuff" (for the times).

Mistressing for a person of sufficient wealth and influence has always been an acceptable, albeit disreputable and potentially dangerous career choice for a girl.

In a different society it manifests as the harem and various forms of polygamy. In some not so distant locales, in a time not too far gone, "paying the rent" had a very well known meaning.

Get primitive enough and its the ones who stump up with the meat.

Like it or lump it, the statistics tell the story, and the story is: By fair means or foul, the propogation of the species. Mating for love is a dangerously overated luxury of universal afluence.

I'm not making any moral judgements or arguments, simply noting observed behaviour.

[zazen]

136. boys did it with Socrates and Plato, right?

I think trading one's body for an education was considered if not a noble, at least a perfectly acceptable act, in Ancient Greece.

Apart from larger gender analyses, the excitement and passion of discovery in teaching and learning can be very erotically tinged, which is why I guess there are so many rules now at universities about faculty/student relationships.

[Zywiec]

20. I'm guessing you don't have any parents

Do you really think all older men having sex are utterly, nauseatingly repulsive?

At what age does one become a grunting, sweating, pathetic, halitosis-stricken half-impotent man?

Wow, thanks for your enlightening post.

:eyes:

[BR_Parkway]

22. Interesting that no one is mentioning that young men are also advertising

there for Sugar Daddies and Sugar Mommas

It's not just old men and young girls

[GaYellowDawg]

23. Meh.

Save the outrage for something that warrants it. There are plenty of young women who incur student loans who don't hook to pay them off - who have crappy apartments, or live in small, boring towns, or don't have a TV, or work 3 jobs, or sign up for income-contingent plans. These women are doing this entirely willingly to maintain the high life, or buy a $300 dress, or live in a happening city.

Next.

[comtec]

72. didn't take long for the man-hating to begin

there are also a lot of gay guys looking for sugar daddies and lesbians looking for sugar mommies.

apparently, unlike you, i read this op as all of the above happening.

this is important now a days because at one time you could almost expect a job after college... now not so much

[Maru Kitteh]

103. That's amusing, because I saw it as a woman hating post for suggesting marriage instead of

independence. Maybe the poster just hates everybody? :shrug: It's a possibility worth considering.

[Dorian Gray]

115. The marriage line

is what struck out at me, too.

I do think that poster has enough hate in him/her to hate both men and women, though.

[Codeine]

133. Jesus fuck. Not all older men are "utterly, nauseatingly repulsive".

Had anyone here made a similar statement about women they'd be eating pizza.

[zazen]

134. what weird responses to my post

"These men" clearly refers to men who buy women one-third their age, not to older men in general, and refers to the description in the article _by the author_ of the woman having to rub oil into his "folds of flesh."

Having enjoyed a wonderful range of older men in many capacities from when I was a teenager up until my 40s, I certainly don't "hate" men or women, younger or older.

How weird.

The only hate I see here is for a woman who calls out johns for their repulsive, exploitative behavior. Hate amongst yourselves. Go for it.

[Xithras]

122. It's not new. One of my roomates was doing this in the early 90's.

She's a brilliant and beautiful woman, but her family didn't have the resources to finance the education she wanted. So she turned to sex work.

She could make $2,500 in a weekend, and once made more than $20,000 cruising around the Meditteranean on some rich guys boat for two weeks, acting the part of his girlfriend. That's a lot of money now, but was an absolute fortune in 1993 dollars. That one trip financed her education and living expenses for most of a year.

People might look down their noses at her for it, but she was very selective about her clients and limited herself to only a few a month. In the end, she left college, PhD in hand, without a dime of debt. She's married, has a couple kids, and has a great career today. Nobody meeting her now would ever suspect her history.

The Internet has made things a little easier (and apparently a bit cheaper...supply and demand has kicked in), but the practice itself has been around as long as women have been in college.

[Seedersandleechers]

3. It would depend on what

the "arrangement" was.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. There are quite possibly dozens of people doing this

There are also Google hits for selling organs for tuition.

[JanMichael]

5. I hate this world. nt.

[TheDebbieDee]

6. I call this, "Getting the most from your assets!"

[zazen]

8. US Dept of Ed really improved its minority STEM "pipeline"

I wish they'd get honest in the annual higher education "value" reports and talk about the reality of joblessness and ongoing discrimination for most minority college graduates--the ones who aren't at the elite institutions. Of course, it's bad for all graduates, but minorities are really being sold a bill of goods as they go into hock for 15-40k.

[undeterred]

10. So if there aren't enough Pell Grants to go around

maybe you can fill out the application for a Sugar Daddy and the school can match you up. That way it won't seem so seedy.

[Pryderi]

11. College Harems for Koch Brothers? n/t

[divvy]

17. Grade School Harems for Koch Brothers ....

When Obama finishes with the destruction and privatization of public schools, only the Koch Brothers will be able to afford the tuition.

[Pryderi]

13. For fifty bucks, I learned, you could "relate without getting close." For a hundred, a girl

For fifty bucks, I learned, you could "relate without getting close." For a hundred, a girl would lend you her Bartok records, have dinner, and then let you watch while she had an anxiety attack. For one-fifty, you could listen to FM radio with twins. For three bills, you got the works: A thin Jewish brunette would pretend to pick you up at the Museum of Modern Art, let you read her master's, get you involved in a screaming quarrel at Elaine's over Freud's conception of women, and then fake a suicide of your choosing - the perfect evening, for some guys. Nice racket. Great town, New York -- Woody Allen

[KurtNYC]

90. so he "adopted" Sun Yi and ended his marriage and his career n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

14. fess up

how many of you went to see the "revealing outfits"?

[Lance_Boyle]

18. Whoring whores whore themselves for whatever purpose.

More non-news at 11.

[grahamhgreen]

19. Yes. Its how the 3rd world functions. This is the Austerity future for our daughters.

[GliderGuider]

26. It's how the entire world functions, and always has.

No matter how we try to candy-coat it with culture and morality. It's just part of being human. Anyone who doesn't like it is under no obligation to participate.

[grahamhgreen]

28. No. Where college education is paid for by the general fund, there is no need for this.

[GliderGuider]

34. I agree with that.

Universal medical care also means women don't have to prostitute themselves to pay for surgery, either.

Good, that takes care of two problems. Now what about the rest of these arrangements, done for everything from status and rent money to diamonds and power trips?

If you're in favour of legalizing prostitution, why would you care what legal commodity women use the proceeds for?

[grahamhgreen]

117. I don't care. They shouldn't be forced to by a bunch of greedy rich people who refuse

to pay taxes.

[tammywammy]

40. This isn't a US only issue

"The phenomenon appears to be international,
having been documented in the United Kingdom, the United States (Weitzer 2000),
Australia (Lantz 2004; Sedgeman 2004), and France (Duvall Smith 2006), where it has
been estimated that approximately 2% of students fund their studies through sex work."

http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/Documents/Academia/Participation%20in%20sex%20work%20Roberts%202010%20Sex%20Education%20%2010(2)%20145.pdf

[ecstatic]

97. I agree that education costs are out of control (should be free), but

if college tuition weren't the issue, it would be a car note or rent that is being paid in exchange for sex. You're implying that if college was free there would be no prostitution/escorting. Also, when did loans stop being an option for students? I had to take loans out in my own name to get through school.

[grahamhgreen]

118. This is what the article is about - money for school.

[marions ghost]

44. Part of being subhuman

is victimizing women. Yes it's an old story. And maybe it's time to stop candy-coating it & calling predators sugar-daddies.

[tammywammy]

49. In this article it specifically discusses websites

How are the sugar-daddies the predators? The women in the article are seeking out the website and signing up. The older men aren't tricking the women into doing it and all understand what they're signing up for.

What's the difference between a "sugar daddy" and a "cougar"?

[seabeyond]

54. they prey off desperation. if a woman would not do this when she is not desperate

then that tells you something about the decision she is making. the majority of women, when able to provide for themselves, do not make this choice.

and i am not arguing the choice. these women can do what they like, and the men can buy them. dont care

[tammywammy]

62. So what's the difference between a "sugar daddy" and a "cougar"?

Do you think men that date cougars are also preyed upon?

[seabeyond]

63. ya. lol. two people using each other

and personally, i dont think it is healthy for either, personally or what it gives the other. this is just my personal perspective. not telling people not to do it. use. their business. but when you use another, it takes it to that place. period. doesnt matter what it is. it does stuff to people

[marions ghost]

87. good questions

...trying to answer...

1. The women signing up are vulnerable. They need money (big money these days) and they don't see any way of getting out of crippling debt for years. They are desperate because who would do this--have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with, & do something your intelligence tells you is risky--if they were not in a bad position. It takes a lot of lowering of self-respect to do this, and women who fall for it can wake up years later wondering why they are so angry at themselves and the society that told them this was OK. Some women, especially the very young, don't even know where the line is that defines sexual abuse. It's not the "morality" it's the condition of being abused that comes back to haunt them. The young women have no idea what they're signing up for. They think they can push it out of their minds and move on...talk to some psychotherapists and you find out how many have difficulty later. My analogy is that it's like young guys who wake up one day and have all this remorse and anger about killing people in wars (after buying the rationales at the time). Anyone who was abused when young and doesn't work through it actively may end up having it come out in negative ways.

2. Men trolling these websites are looking for easy pickings for sex in a situation where they have total control. The type of man who would do this as no scruples and needs to use the money for some real rehab. Not a good type. (But unfortunately not uncommon, esp in a predatory culture).

3. Are cougars setting up websites trolling for younger men? I'm not up on the predatory practices of cougars. Except wasn't one found in Massachusetts recently? If women did this (pay for a young guy's tuition in return for sex), I'd call it predation too. And think they were messed up.

People will argue this is "consentual sex" -- as though that makes it all right. But you have to look at the fact that NO woman should be forced to consider prostitution as a smart move. That is what we are trying to CHANGE in countries where it's very prevalent. Anytime you are having sex with someone you don't like or want to have sex with, it is abuse.

[seabeyond]

51. part of being human enough, they need to eat. damn straight. dont you dare declare me being a whore

is part of being a female "human being". what fuckin scumbag, misogynist bullshit

[GliderGuider]

56. I'd never declare you to be anything - I don't know you at all.

"Declaring" a stranger to be this or that, or to have some particular belief, usually says more about the person doing the declaring than the one thy're talking about. I try to avoid imputing motivation to perfect strangers.

[seabeyond]

57. you are saying paying for and selling sex is part of being a human being. i am a human being.

i would be the seller. that would make me the whore.

if being a whore is part of a females existence, then yes.... you are calling me a whore. seeing how it always was, always is and part of being a human being.

[tammywammy]

60. I think there's a give and take usually involved with sex

as there is with everything else. Sex is a complicated act, it's not a black/white issue. No one's calling you a whore. I would also say that women can also be the "purchaser".

[seabeyond]

but this person was tammyw. it was women always sell since eve. he couldnt even acknowledge

that sex was about pleasure with women.

sex is often complicated, depending, and it can absolutely not be complicated, too.

[tammywammy]

68. I don't think GliderGuider said that women cannot have sex for pleasure at all

At least I don't get that from their posts. I think it's common to assume that people of both sexes trade sex for something, whether emotional/financial/other reasons, but that doesn't preclude people from having sex for pleasure or a combination of reasons.

[seabeyond]

65. but this person was tammyw. it was women always sell since eve. he couldnt even acknowledge

that sex was about pleasure with women.

sex is often complicated, depending, and it can absolutely not be complicated, too.

[GliderGuider]

64. If you don't do that, then no I wouldn't call you a whore.

I also think that violence is an innate part of human nature and as a result it's also part of mine. But that doesn't make me a "murderer" any more than the fact that sex is commonly used as a commodity by others makes you a whore.

[seabeyond]

67. you have a warped perspective of women. i am not surprised at all if sex is complicated

for you, or if a woman doesnt have pleasure, seeing you do not even consider the woman as wanting sex for the sake of pleasure.

[GliderGuider]

76. You're putting words in my mouth again.

I never said anything remotely like that. I've explicitly said women do have sex for pleasure.

For example, my first wife in the 1970s was someone for whome sex was first, last, always and only for pleasure. She never wanted anything economic from me, even though she was a wheelchair-bound paraplegic from the MS that ultimately killed her. When we broke up she didn't even want support payments from me. However, she was totally devoted to her own sexual pleasure, with no other considerations involved at all. Was she uncomplicated as a result? Not on your life. Was her (our) sex life uncomplicated as a result? Quite the reverse...

[seabeyond]

80. you even had a woman that gave you a totally different perspective. then WHY

did you say eve did it and it is part of being human being. you first wife did not allow it. why did you give it to us all?

can you imagine how a woman may get pissed, being raised with the cute little joke that all women are whores, look at marriage. and making the conscious decision to NEVER take from anyone, let alone a man, so cant be put in that perspective of being a whore. NEVER letting the man be the sole provider on a date, cause otherwise he is just buying, and she is just selling.

you dont think that "funny" doesnt effect women? and men for that matter?

[GliderGuider]

86. I'm not sure what your point is here.

I've seen behaviour from women that went all the way from pure hedonism to piracy, and every point in between. I've read a lot about evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology, and as a result I have a fairly dispassionate take on human nature in its infinite variety.

I'm sorry my ironic reference to Adam & Eve upset you, but it was a way of making a strong point about my beliefs - that using sex as a commodity is one inherent part of human nature. Whether that part gets expressed or not, and the baggage we as individuals and society hang on it is another matter.

[seabeyond]

89. i get that you have done evolutionary psychology. it was obvious. junk science

that fucks up a persons perspective on gender role and perspective on sex. my point.

[GliderGuider]

100. I'll let E.O. Wilson know you disapprove :-)

From the perspective of its critics the problem with Ev Psych seems to be that it lets too much "nature" into the "nature vs. nurture" debate. In doing that it introduces the possibility that we may not be fully autonomous moral agents in all our behavior and choices. This restriction makes many people uncomfortable, and has given rise to a variety of straw man attacks. These attacks include imputing beliefs to the both science and its practitioners that they do not, in fact, hold.

One such straw man is the idea that we are all genetically programmed automata with no free will. That is emphatically not the position of EP, which simply opens the door to the idea that evolutionary pressures have shaped our behaviour as well as the brains the behaviour springs from. These pressures did not predetermine us, but they did shape us.

In terms of this discussion, the fact that the use of sex as a commodity is found in every culture we examine, from the oldest to the newest, is fairly good evidence that it's an evolved trait that has conferred a fairly consistent evolutionary advantage. Universality is a good clue that a trait was evolved rather than simply being a cultural artifact. Now the fact that we are not automata means we are not hard wired to react only that way - there are all sorts of competing influences on our behaviour and beliefs.

If a culture normalizes the belief of "sex is appropriate only in the context of pleasure or love" and establishes sanctions to support that value, the resulting meme will generally out-compete the "sex as commodity" urge, at least in peoples' visible behaviour and expressed beliefs.

The fact that we still find women and men pursuing "the oldest profession" even in the face of the most draconian laws means that "commodity sex" is a very powerful urge. Rather than stigmatize those involved in it on either side as moral failures, it might be worthwhile to recognize that it's "natural" urge, and accomodate it while minimizing its potential for damage - which can be enormous.

[seabeyond]

102. no. the argument from the scientists is a whole lot of guessing presented as fact per agenda

Part of the controversy has consisted in each side accusing the other of holding or supporting extreme political viewpoints. Critics view evolutionary psychology as a form of genetic reductionism and determinism,<1> a common critique being that evolutionary psychology does not address the complexity of individual development and experience and fails to explain the influence of genes on behavior in individual cases.<2>

A frequent critique of the discipline is that the hypotheses of evolutionary psychology are difficult or impossible to adequately test, thus questioning its status as an actual scientific discipline, for example because many current traits probably evolved to serve different functions than they do now.<3> While evolutionary psychology hypotheses are difficult to test, evolutionary psychologists assert that is not impossible.<4> Part of the critique of the scientific base of evolutionary psychology includes a critique of the concept of the Ancestral Adaptive Environment. Some critics have argued that EP assumes that human evolution occurred in a uniform environment, and suggest that we know so little about the environment, or probably multiple environments, in which homo sapiens evolved that explaining specific traits as an adaption to that environment becomes highly speculative.<5>

Another frequent critique against the narrowly defined discipline of evolutionary psychlogy comes even from other psychologists who work within evolutionary frameworks. This is a critique of the computational and specifically the modular theory of mind, which according to several groups of critics is not well supported, or necessary in order to explain psychological traits as having adapted. Proponents of other models of the mind argue that the computational theory of mind does not fit with our biological reality any more than does a mind shaped entirely by the environment. Even within evolutionary psychology there is discussion about whether to conceptualize the level of modularity of the mind, either as a few generalist modules or as many highly specific modules.<6><7>

Also the basic theoretical assumptions of the discipline are challenged by its critics. Some theoreticians argue that evolutionary psychology leans on misconceptions of biological and evolutionary theory which affects its claims to scientific validity.<8>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology

However, this way of thinking is also widely condemned as “psychobiological extremism”, because once you start attributing common behaviors to brain biology without having indisputable evidence to support your claims, it is not long before you start to blame every type of human behavior on some as-yet-undiscovered “mental organ of convenience”.

Some extremists have even gone so far as to suggest that there is a mental organ responsible for religious belief, the so-called ‘god module’, the instructions for which are genetically encoded in our ‘god gene’. Such ideas are easily discreditable because they try to oversimplify social phenomena that are so complex that they seem to be almost impossible for the average person to comprehend.

These kinds of unsubstantiable speculations have become so pervasive, because of their sensationalist potential, that even otherwise reputable scientific publications cannot help themselves but to cash in on the controversy by printing articles about every nutcase behavioral gene theory that crawls out of the academic trashcan.

Not only is there no evidence for almost any of these claims, the circumstantial evidence weighs heavily against them. For example, the development of functionally specific mental organs would be an evolutionary dead-end. The evolution of animal faces might have slowed down to a halt if corresponding changes were also needed in a specialized face recognition brain module.
http://www.evolutionary-philosophy.net/psychology.html

The argument over the evolutionary "appropriateness" of rape Begley outlines is important because many self-proclaimed EP realists argue that human nature leads us to wage war on our neighbors, deceive our spouses, and abuse our stepchildren. Rape, they say, is just a reproductive strategy, marriage a no-win struggle of mutually-assured disappointment, and romantic love a chemical reaction luring us into reproductive traps parental love keeps us from escaping. Theirs is an all-encompassing narrative that claims to explain it all.

But evolutionary psychology’s narrative contains many glaring contradictions. Women, for example, are said to be the choosy, reserved sex. Men spend their energies trying to impress women – flaunting expensive watches, driving shiny new sports-cars, clawing their way to positions of fame and status – all in order to convince the coy females to part with their closely-guarded sexual favors. For women, we’re told, sex is all about the security of the relationship, not the physical pleasure. (See Natalie Angier's spirited spanking of EP for gender generalizing here.)

And yet, despite repeated assurances that women aren’t particularly sexual creatures, in cultures around the world, men go to extraordinary lengths to control female libido: female genital mutilation, head-to-toe chadors, medieval witch burnings, chastity belts, muttered insults about “insatiable” whores, pathologizing, paternalistic medical diagnoses, the debilitating scorn heaped on any female who chooses to be generous with her sexuality… all obvious elements of a brutal campaign to keep the supposedly low-key female libido under wraps. Why the electrified razor-wire high-security fence around a kitty-cat?

While EP offers a valuable way of thinking about psychological development and life in the preshistoric environments, many of the most prominent voices in the field are less scientists than political philosophers. They choose some aspect of modern life and construct elaborate justifications located in an inaccessible ancient environment. Often, the fact that their story seems to make sense is the only evidence they offer. For them, it may be enough, but it isn't enough if you're aspiring to be taken seriously as a science.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200906/evolutionary-psychology-deserves-criticism

[GliderGuider]

107. The Wiki article you quote is tagged as "unbalanced". Here is the response in the main article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology#Reception

Initial response

Although the application of adaptationist approaches to studying animal behavior has become standard and uncontroversial, evolutionary psychology has been entangled in the larger philosophical and social science controversies related to the nature versus nurture debate. Some of controversy has been related not to the science itself, but to concerns about its potential political misuse by others. For example, eugenics and social darwinism were political philosophies of the early 20th Century that were largely based on the naturalistic fallacy -- the erroneous idea that what is necessarily implies what ought. Other critics have expressed concerned about EP itself. As an adaptationist, nature-nurture interactionist perspective, it challenged the basic tenets of the predominant paradigm of the social sciences, cultural determinism. This view suggested that biology could be pretty much safely ignored when studying human behavior. The result has been sometimes heated discussions between supporters of these two different theoretical paradigms. <113>

Reductionism and determinism

Some critics view evolutionary psychology as a form of genetic reductionism and genetic determinism,<114> a common critique being that evolutionary psychology does not address the complexity of individual development and experience and fails to explain the influence of genes on behavior in individual cases.<115> Evolutionary psychologists respond that EP works within a nature-nurture interactionist framework that acknowledges that many psychological adaptations are facultative (sensitive to environmental variations during individual development). EP is generally not focused on proximate analyses of behavior but rather its focus is on the study of distal/ultimate causality (the evolution of psychological adaptations). The field of behavioral genetics is focused on the study of the proximate influence of genes on behavior. <116>

Testability of hypotheses

A frequent critique of the discipline is that the hypotheses of evolutionary psychology are difficult or impossible to adequately test, thus questioning its status as an actual scientific discipline, for example because many current traits probably evolved to serve different functions than they do now.<3> While evolutionary psychology hypotheses are difficult to test, evolutionary psychologists assert that is not impossible.<117> Part of the critique of the scientific base of evolutionary psychology includes a critique of the concept of the Environments of Evolutionary Adaptation (EEA). Some critics have argued that we know so little about the environment in which homo sapiens evolved that explaining specific traits as an adaption to that environment becomes highly speculative.<118> Evolutionary psychologists respond that we do know many things about this environment, including the facts that only women got pregnant, our ancestors were hunter-gatherers that generally lived in small tribes, etc.<119>

Modularity of mind

There is also disagreement among evolutionary psychologists concerning the ability and necessity of the computational and specifically the modular theory of mind to explain the evolutionary adaptation of psychological traits. Proponents of other models of the mind argue that the computational theory of mind is no better than non-evolutionary theories in explaining biological reality. Evolutionary psychologists also disagree about conceptualizing the level of modularity of the mind either as a few generalist modules or as many highly specific modules.<120><121> In response there are several criticisms of the non-modular theory with one example being that it has never produced any predictions or empirical confirmations while evolutionary theories based on modularity have produced many predictions that have been empirically confirmed.<116>

Evolutionary psychology defence

Overall, evolutionary psychologists argue that many of the criticisms leveled against the field are straw men, are based on a incorrect nature vs. nurture dichotomy, or are based on a misunderstandings of the discipline.

I tend to be very interested in the root causes of human behaviour. This is because I see so much of our behaviour as being extremely intractable, even across millennia and a vast range of cultures. So I tend to pay attention to disciplines that examine those sorts of questions - not the questions of why we are all so different, but why we are all so much the same. Concentrating on similarities between people seems somehow more charitable than focusing on differences and shortcomings. EP is one of the tools I use in that search, and I think that when kept within the boundaries the discipline sets for itself, EP is quite respectable.

[seabeyond]

112. cause it makes all the sense in the world women are nonsexual and all a male is, is about sex.

i am so sure, you find this respectable thinking.

[GliderGuider]

113. ??? Where does EP say that???

Certainly not in anything I've read.

[seabeyond]

116. ep's position on womens sexuality is comodity, gaining something. on mens is a need. nt

[GliderGuider]

121. Can you point me to some supporting info?

That sounds completely unlike something a scientist would say. It sounds more like a loose interpretation from someone outside the discipline.

[seabeyond]

125. discipline? it is a discipline for you. like in cult. lol. show me where any EP discusses

a womans need, want, pure enjoyment and desire pertaining to sex.

they take history of women being controlled as women using sex as a commodity to men. the minute women gain the freedoms and independence, it becomes about their desire.

we made an amazing evolutionary leap from being nonsexual beings to sexual beings in a couple decades.

evolution doesn't work that way

society conditioning does.

and since women have gained that freedom and control, men have been trying to figure out how to become dominant again. in walks EP. for a group of insecure men to feel dominate in in control again.

[GliderGuider]

131. Interestingly, I was just reading such a discussion

In searching for something to support your contention, I came upon this blog post by an Associate Professor at the University of Pennsylvania. In the course of his discussion of another paper he mentions the pleasure theory of Abramson and Pinkerton (they wrote a book on it). Specifically, he writes the following:

I think the argument that you want to engage is the one that evolutionary psychologists typically make about sexual pleasure, which is that it is an adaptation, not a byproduct, and in particular that it is the motivational system that causes people to seek sexual encounters. An excellent source here is Jared Diamond’s book, Why is Sex Fun. (Please see p. 5 of the book you cite, With Pleasure, which portrays this argument reasonably well.)

More generally, I found it difficult to understand what you mean, then, when you say: “Pleasure theory asserts that pleasure itself is evolutionarily favored.” There is a sense in which this just is the standard view, but it’s difficult to know what you mean by this claim.

This isn’t to deny, of course, that people seek sex because they enjoy it. But of course this is a proximate, rather than ultimate explanation. Sexual Strategies Theory, against which you set Pleasure Theory, is at the ultimate rather than proximate level. Please see Scott-Phillips et al. (2011) for a recent discussion of this distinction. Some explanation for why people have the pleasure systems that they do is required. Simply assuming the pleasure systems are as they are and that people seek pleasurable experiences is not a theory or explanation as these terms are usually used. (You allude to being aware of this issue when you write, “I am not entirely convinced by the argument that sexual pleasure is a different level of analysis. That is, the implications of SST are clearly that women would forgo sexual pleasure to have sex with a high-status man who would support them and their potential children. Thus, for women, at least, pleasure is intentionally discounted within SST.” I was unable to understand the second two sentences, so I cannot respond to your being convinced by the ultimate/proximate distinction, but I do encourage you to engage witht this idea.)

As far as I know, women have always been viewed as sexual beings, as far back as we have records. Social norms have repressed the expression of their sexuality from time to time (like in Victorian England), but generally women have been seen as sexually active in their own right. There is a ton of archaeological evidence to support this, along with such things as the amazing Indian temple friezes. The fact that sexual activity is so ingrained in both sexes is why repression is so damaging and typically short-lived.

That's a different argument though, than the question of how we assign values to all the various reasons people have sex. That's absolutely cultural. Have you read the book The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler? She does a fascinating deconstruction of the historical shift in gender roles through a decidedly feminist lens. I found it quite convincing and very inspiring.

[seabeyond]

132. i am going to get back to this, when i have time. nt

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

106. further... look how gracefully you sled right back to all women are whores, oh wait

you arent so tacky as to call women using sex as a commodity a whore, prostitute, evolution tells us so.

all those posts denying this is what you were saying, is exactly what you are saying and you came full circle to say it again

[GliderGuider]

109. The word has real punch, doesn't it? nt

[seabeyond]

110. honest if nothing else. better than working an agenda and ignoring facts to

confirm the agenda.

[GliderGuider]

135. I'd like to clarify something I wrote above.

I wrote, "If a culture normalizes the belief of "sex is appropriate only in the context of pleasure or love" and establishes sanctions to support that value, the resulting meme will generally out-compete the "sex as commodity" urge, at least in peoples' visible behaviour and expressed beliefs."

This left out one hugely important consideration that bears on the subject of the OP. That is that the "sex for love or pleasure only" meme will out-compete the "sex as commodity" meme only so long as other avenues are open to women to let them acquire what they need. If those avenues are closed off - either due to physical circumstances (like those in Europe at the end of WWII) or cultural norms (like those that shut women out of the workplace in the 50s and 60s) - women will tend to do more bartering of their sexuality.

I think this is what's happening here - with the job market shrinking due to the recession, there is more emphasis on having a degree in order to be employable, but fewer avenues available to pay for it. That's a ready-made environment for sexual bartering like this. The cure is to improve the job market, both so there are more jobs and so that one doesn't need a PhD in Medieval History just to put food on the table.

Since our values and beliefs are shaped by our physical circumstances (according to anthropologist Marvin Harris, at least) it makes sense that changing circumstances will cause a shift in values. In this case, we are seeing a shift towards thinking that such bartering is acceptable, and redefining "whores" as "sex workers". Such women are no longer seen as being "beyond the pale" because there's a growing recognition that they have fewer options available than they did a decade or two ago.

This shift is happening both in society generally and in womens' views of themselves. Changing circumstances can make a virtue out of a necessity, but the place to put the finger of blame in this case isn't on the women, but on the circumstances that makes such a devil's bargain seem like the only choice available.

[chrisa]

105. When people feel like they have to do this because there's no other option,

We have failed them as a society. Miserably. I wonder if you could really call this a "willing" act, or rather an act of desperation?

It depends on the context.

[GliderGuider]

111. The fact that we have failed them as a society is clear.

The USA has also failed people on the health care front, on protection from predatory lending, protection from having their jobs sent overseas - a whole myriad of pressures that's going to make this story increasingly common.

Ideological issues about sex aside, any culture that casts its most vulnerable to the wolves the way the USA does is rotten at the core.

[Darth_Kitten]

21. Yes, it is.

:(

[CTyankee]

24. For about a year or so, the house next door was rented to a woman who

was a self-employed sex worker. She all but admitted it, telling neighbors when she moved in that she had lots of "men friends." She was quite pretty and had a great figure. Because she was quiet and her activities were quiet, we were not disturbed by what she was doing. Then one night she tried to kill herself. Luckily, she sought help for another neighbor who was a state trooper and he got her medical attention immediately.

She has moved away now. But I think about her and what her life had cost her in terms of her own mental health. I wonder what has happened to her...

[GliderGuider]

25. This hasn't been news for over 6000 years.

Ever since Eve said to Adam, "You want me to do what? Start an entire species with you? Well, maybe - what's it worth to you?"

Seriously, this is just modern evolutionary fitness theory on display. Nothing to get bent over.

[WinkyDink]

27. WTH? College-age women selling themselves to a high-roller to pay tuition is "nothing"?

Let one be your mother.

[GliderGuider]

32. My mother got married and my father helped pay her tuition. What's your point? nt

[seabeyond]

35. are you really saying your mom is a whore? really? wow.

i have not seen that on du yet.

[GliderGuider]

36. No, I said she was married. For 65 years now.

Since I'm typing this today, I have to assume sexual access was part of the arrangement.

[seabeyond]

39. doesnt she equaly benefit with sexual aspect, from a purely pleasurable sense

as much as the man. or is woman not a sexual being and only does sex FOR the man, cause it is all about mans sexual pleasure?

i am really amazed you reduce marriage, your mom and all woman as non sexual only there to "service" man

truly, out of the ball park

[GliderGuider]

46. would that argument be called a "Straw woman?"

As I said above, most women (of whom my mother is definitely one) have a complex set of reasons for sexual activity. There was probably an aspect of physical pleasure involved, along with nurturing a relationship with a powerful, extremely intelligent man. That relationship gave her choices regarding her life work that she would not have had without it, and I have no doubt that freedom was a factor at some level too.

I've never talked to her about this, but given that's how most marriages work I'm inclined to suspect my mother is little different.

[seabeyond]

47. there was probably an aspect of pleasure? probably? really? fuck, a problem with dad

if you think there was just a probably, with pleasure.

now you reduce womens sex to being nurturing.

fuck us women, in your view. really... totally blown away.

did your father gain anything from this marriage, or was it all about daddy taking care of mommy.

totally amazing, reducing women to nothing

thank you very much. amazing.

[GliderGuider]

52. the reason I say "probably" is that I never asked them about it. Respparental privacy and all that.

I'm not trying to "reduce" sex to anything. It's probably the most complex personal act any of us can perform, fraught with enormous amounts of personal and cultural baggage. Trying to stuff its validity into the pigeonhole of "for love only" strikes me as a very reductionist perspective.

[seabeyond]

55. do you say that a man has sex cause there is "probably" some pleasure in the act?

and there are actually people, WOMEN included, that are healthy and grounded in sex and dont have all these messed up whatevers you see with that act.

[GliderGuider]

59. Of course.

I have known some men who admitted to getting very little pleasure from the act, beyond a simple physical release. Their reasons for having sex seemed to include large dollops of guilt and duty. Other men live to please both their partner and themselves. Most of us, most of the time are somewhere in the middle.

A useful question might be, what does being "healthy and grounded in sex" mean, given the enormous diversity and complexity of human beings?

[seabeyond]

69. i want to boink, i grab my hubby and boink and vice versa and say yum after.

:shrug:

really? you dont get that?

[GliderGuider]

78. Of course I get that. Look at my post above for an example of how much I get that.

It's just not the only (or even only valid) reason people have sex.

[seabeyond]

81. i didnt say it was. you are the one that stated and further implied. nt

[grahamhgreen]

29. Contrary to your belief, all women are not whores and all men are not bastards.

PS - I am for legalizing prostitution, BTW.

[GliderGuider]

31. Please stop doing that. I never said they were.

I am saying that the practice of women exchanging sexual access for various non-sexual benefits has been common throughout history. Of course not everyone does it, but it's as natural as, well, sex. No amount of moral proscription has ever ended the practice, in any culture, anywhere, at any time. The sexual urge is the most powerful drive in our makeup, because the survival of the species depends on it. No amount of moralistic fulmination has ever changed that, or ever will.

[tammywammy]

33. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

37. so, in typical male fashion, you declare women dont do sex for the sake of pleasure, but commerce.

that a woman only has sex if she gets something materialistic in return. evolution tells us so.

we have no libido
we have no sex drive
we are nonsexual

sexual drive is all mans

[GliderGuider]

43. Please stop doing that. I did not "declare" that.

Women have sex for all kinds of reasons - it's a complicated activity. Many do it for pleasure. Many do it as a transaction of some sort, whether it's economic, emotional or something deeper related to survival and power. Most women I've known have acknowledged feeling elements of both.

We stigmatize women who do it just for pleasure as "nymphomaniacs", and those who do it purely for economic gain as "prostitutes". The rest who do it for some complicated personal stew of reasons drawn from both sides of the ledger we simply call "normal".

[seabeyond]

45. you tell me to stop? eve did it because adam was giving her something. your mom did it, NOT

cause she loved your dad but because he paid for her college.

and you are telling ME to stop.

all kinds of people, both genders, uses sex for all kinds of reason. but dont bring men into it. it is pure for males and so very simple. we know this because society simplifies it for the male over and over and over.

and we complicate it for females from the day they are born and reiterate it continually with comments like all women are whores, look at marriage.

and then wonder why it is so fckin complicated for women

you wonder why?

you dont need to tell me how i feel, experience, express sex. i can do it all on my own. and you are so far off base.

[GliderGuider]

48. Did I say she didn't love him? Au contraire, she adores him, and he adores her.

You don't get to your 65th wedding anniversary still holding hands in bed at night without love.

Sex is complicated for all of us. All I'm asking you to stop doing is putting words in my mouth.

[seabeyond]

50. eve sold herself to adam, evolution, 6000 yrs of women selling self, women only do sex to get stuff

you said it. own your words.

and maybe i have a better concept of the realitites of your parents marriage than you do, not reducing her to a nonsexual human being.

[GliderGuider]

61. Go back and look in my posts for the word "only". It's not there.

I did not say that. I do not believe that.

However, I do believe that trading sex for non-sexual benefits is perfectly reasonable if the people involved are being truthful with each other and themselves about their motives.

[seabeyond]

75. well, when i was po, 18 and living on my own

and hungry, i had to do some thinking. 3 old farts offered to be sugar daddies. and a club that had me about naked, serving, offered job. i had to decide if i wanted to make the choice of using sex for $. i chose not to. so yes... i resent the hell out of listening to men reduce all women to whores.

many women are never in that position and never have to think it thru and dont chose that route. many. vast majority.

some women in that position actually put the time into it and think it thru, and say no. in saying no, i learned not to use sex. got it. not to use it at all. not as a weapon, not as getting a dinner, not against hubby. NEVER use sex. part of the ability to recognize this to think it thru is men like you that reduce all women to whores, so i was able to think this thru ahead of time. but it has simplified sex to pleasure instead of the complication you and others want to make it.

and some women chose it cause they are hungry and desperate. that is hurtful. they would not make that choice if they were not desperate. that hurts within.

the minority, the very few, chose it cause it fits their lifestyle

so yes, it is an insult to the vast majority of women for men like you to reduce all of us to whores.

[GliderGuider]

83. "whore" is such an ugly, judgmental, pejorative term. I never to use it.

I think it would damage me to think of people that way. I see people as complex, indecipherable creatures. Most of the magic in the world is in getting to know others without having to dig through layers of judgmental preconceptions.

[seabeyond]

85. no. it is just a word. no more or less. sell sex for money. you would have to have some kind of

judgment on the person selling, to preceive it as insulting. if a person is ok with selling their body for money, then they should not have a problem with the word. prostitute more sensitive? same thing.

that is the irony of this all. we are all suppose to be cozy and warm about the idea of a man buying a body to use as he pleases and a woman submitting to eing used however... for a $, but we cannot handle calling it what it is. we have to make it soft, and gentle, and pretty.

if we are ok with people selling themselves, a word hardly matters.

my niece wearing a top so low she is flashing her tits. we are all suppose to pretend she isnt flashing us. i say, niece... you are flashing your tits at me.

OMG.... how rude.

not rude flashing her tits at me. we can get flashed, but not allowed to talk about it.... outloud.

now who is messed up.

[GliderGuider]

92. Culture plays an enormous role in semantics. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.

As used by our culture, the word "whore" is generally (I'd dare say universally) considered abusive. "Prostitute" is usually considered less loaded.

[seabeyond]

95. what is disingenuous is the suggestion that it is the word that's abusive. the reality is

prostitute has now been deemed along the line of whore, as abusive. so if you were really current on all this, you would know we are not to say prostitute anymore. we are suppose to say sex providers (or some such nonsense). why? why has prostitute become as dirty as the word whore?

because we want a "pretty woman" view of selling bodies and buying bodies. and it isn't. it isn't pretty. it isn't non hurtful. it is ugly in most all circumstances. so the word gains the taint as it is continued to be used.

hence.... might as well embrace the word as only a word. cause no word will tie a pretty little bow on the act and make it pretty.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. they had student loans 6000 years ago?

the things I learn on DU.

[GliderGuider]

66. Eating from the Tree of Knowledge came with a pretty heft price tag, if I recall correctly. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

93. damn. you're old!

:hide:

[GliderGuider]

30. "Isn't this prostitution?"

My favourite exchange in Barbara Streisand's move "Nuts" came when she was on the stand during her competency hearing, and the lawyer was trying to paint her as a crazy hooker:

Francis MacMillan: What did you live on?
Claudia Draper: Gifts.
Francis MacMillan: Gifts. Gifts from whom?
Claudia Draper: Friends.
Francis MacMillan: Men friends?
Claudia Draper: Uh-huh.
Francis MacMillan: And what did these men friends give you? Jewelry?
Claudia Draper: Sometimes.
Francis MacMillan: Furs?
Claudia Draper: I got a fox boa once.
Francis MacMillan: Did they give you food?
Claudia Draper: Food? One guy used to bring caviar. Is that what you mean?
Francis MacMillan: Did you exchange your jewels and furs for food at the supermarket?
Claudia Draper: Now isn't that silly?
Francis MacMillan: Well, did you?
Claudia Draper: No.
Francis MacMillan: Well, then how'd you pay for your food? I assume you didn't live on caviar.
Claudia Draper: Hardly.
Francis MacMillan: Or did you use those gifts to pay your rent?
Claudia Draper: (to the judge) Um, excuse me. Is it legal to take cash gifts?
Judge Stanley Murdoch: I beg your pardon?
Claudia Draper: I mean, if I say to you, "Stanley, here's, um, five hundred dollars just because I like you," is that legal?
Judge Stanley Murdoch: Yes, that's legal.
Claudia Draper: Thank you. (to MacMillan) A lot of the gifts were cash...

[cbdo2007]

42. If she was just going to be a prostitute, she should have skipped college.

But you know what they say about people who major in Psychology - typically they're trying to figure out what's what with themselves and how to fix themselves. I'm guessing that's what's going on here.

I still think I made a good decision to get a real job after college.

[MilesColtrane]

53. Consenting adults...not my business

[Shagbark Hickory]

58. I guess it's not prostitution if they're just c*ckteasers and it sounds like that's what it is. nm

To add: It's just another escort service then. Those are legal, right?

[JPZenger]

71. Milton Hershey Paid for Both of My Parent's College Tuition

The first 2 years of both of my parent's college tuition during the Depression was paid for by Milton Hershey. No sex was involved, just chocolate company profits. My dad was an orphan who attended Mr. Hershey's orphanage and my mother's father had died when she was young.

[tammywammy]

73. I've taken out loans to pay for my bacheor's degree

I also work full-time.

I could have changed to a school that my company would do tuition reimbursement for, but I chose to continue my education where I'm at (a private university) and with loans. I've also supplemented with classes from the local community college where I can and have been reimbursed for that. For my MBA I've chosen a school that the company will reimburse for.

[seabeyond]

77. sidebar

good for you tammywammy, on all you are accomplishing. one of the few things i regret is i didnt finish college.

you go woman.

[tammywammy]

82. You can always go back.

:)

That was my mom's greatest regrets not finishing college. She went back and graduated in 2005 (from the school that I attend now). She was 55. She was fortuante that her job paid for all of it.

I figure since I'm already used to night/weekend classes, I might as well continue with my Master's after I receive my bachelor's next May.

[seabeyond]

88. i am soooo old.

was the first thing i was gonna say, then i saw your moms age, and i thought, ya...

hubby went for masters, too. he didnt do well first round of college. when he went back, paying himself, he made the same decision as you. well worth it. good for you.

[JPZenger]

98. Night Shift Dunkin Donuts Worker Arrested for Prostitution During her Breaks

A woman employee of a Dunkin Donuts in Rockaway NJ was arrested recently for prostitution during her breaks as a night shift worker. I guess she was also working her way through college.

[seabeyond]

99. lol...

and that has to do with what? about my post? or you just thought telling me that would be fun? the only post not talking about selling oneself.

lol

ok.

[DainBramaged]

84. WOW is this this weeks Olive garden Narwhal?

:shrug:

[GliderGuider]

101. Narwhal? Somebody said "Narwhal"????

No, not going there...

[TwilightGardener]

91. Women whoring themselves out in exchange for something? Get out! When did THAT start?

[ecstatic]

96. It is a form of prostitution, but if they're going to sleep around anyway

why not get something useful out of it (besides heartbreak, STDs and pregnancy)? I think a lot of the bitterness in these responses is due to jealousy. I don't think I could have gone that route (I get disgusted very easily), but these women are graduating college without owing any money. More power to them!

[Fleshdancer]

104. It's odd how adding sex to any story makes people forget the point

Higher education in this country is so damn expensive that people are literally selling their bodies. For education. #societyfail

[GliderGuider]

108. +1000 Good reminder. nt

[tammywammy]

123. The study wasn't just on the US

It also looked at the UK, Australia and France.

[Taverner]

119. Yay!! We're just like a 3rd world country now!!!!

How long before the shanty towns in every major city?

[tammywammy]

126. Do you also consider the UK a 3rd world country? n/t

[Taverner]

128. I don't know. But if students need to turn tricks to pay for school, then we have a problem

Look - I'm all for legalizing prostitution

But making it required of college students unless they're independently wealthy is not healthy

[tammywammy]

129. This study covered college students in the US, UK, France and Australia. n/t

[Pigheaded]

120. Capitalism

Good for them

PH