Am I alone in enjoying watching the stock market fall?

[Goldstein1984]

I mean, there are clearly two economies: Wall Street, reflected in the stock market, and Main Street, reflected in unemployment, declining wages, and foreclosures.

[cbdo2007]

1. And you admit to being completely clueless on how one effects the other?!?!

hahahaha

Then you're alone in your enjoyment and probably not in very intelligent company.

[Raven]

5. I think I understand what the OP means...why be so uncivil? n/t

[MH1]

14. not to speak for the other poste, but *maybe* it's because the op is revelling in the misfortunes

of others? Who are not just the dastardly enemy wall street types?

[cbdo2007]

23. Well, that....and I just hate posts that are blatantly unintelligent.

I actually don't think anyone is having "misfortune" when the stock market is down, unless they sell which is the exact wrong thing to do in that situation.

[MzShantal]

133. If you hate 'em, don't read 'em. Keep it moving. n/t

[Raven]

26. I understand your point but I think there are many many people who

believe that Wall Street is for the rich and doesn't have very much to do with them. They need to be educated.

[cbdo2007]

28. I don't think he's here to get educated....he's here to cause trouble

by putting in a hit & run post and not responding to any follow up.

I'm sorry if I offended you with my snark response to the OP but it didn't look like to me that he was interested in a discussion about what the stock market actually represents.

[Raven]

44. Thanks for the heads up. Some of you guys are much more astute

at picking up on hit and run troublemakers than I am. But I do hold to my point that many people don't understand how the stock market affects them.

[adigal]

177. The OP has over 1000 posts

Maybe he had to go out. Don't assume hit and run because you don't like what someone says. It is not logical.

[KurtNYC]

84. Wall Street is a casino -- they'll take ANYONE's money

The House doesn't lose, the players do (bc THEY are not too big to fail).

[Vanje]

119. 'Educated' my ass!

Those people who have little stake in Wall Street did NOT cause this.
If the OP were "educated" , it would make no difference to the many Americans who are invested in Wall Street.
Don't blame him. He may not like Wall Street, but he did not wreck Wall Street.
Blame the real culprits.
Don't blame the utterly disenfranchised.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Of course Wall Street and Main Street are inextricably linked -

That's why the Wall Street boom has eliminated unemployment in the US, as their record profits trickle down on the peons.

[cbdo2007]

20. I think you're getting "Wall Street" bankers confused with the "Stock Market".

The stock market is made up of companies, both large and small, who benefit greatly and expand their businesses when their stock price rises.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. They have done that, but in China...

but that has to do with a series of FISCAL POLICIES from DC that encourage that.

[cbdo2007]

51. Oh good lord....

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Are you telling me that MSNBC has lied when it reports

that GE X Ray division did move to China and otherwise they are sitting on collectively, trillions of cash?

Are you saying that? Because if you are... again there are fiscal reasons why they have not done this open factories in the US...

You can start with actually LOWER taxes... yes it encourages people to hoard money, NOT INVEST IT.

[cbdo2007]

88. Hey, if you think your handful of examples are indicative of the market as a whole....

there is really nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

The "stock market" is something different to all of us I guess, but regardless of our opinions we all benefit every single day from a stock market that has gone up rather than gone down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Ok let's add Wally Mart, who is STARTING TO MOVE

some production back t the US, (products they carry)

And the trillions that CORPORATIONS are sitting on, and NOT creating jobs with, are the profits from the last few years.

You are entitled to your opinion, you cam complete the rest of that saying...

[RaleighNCDUer]

67. Wall Stree and the Stock Market today have next to nothing to do with

investing in companies - the brokers are investing in INVESTING. They have no interest in whatever widget the company might produce - only in that quarter-point movement of its stocks.

And the companies today don't 'expand their businesses when their stock price rises'. They pay bonuses, and cut employees, and issue dividend checks.

For the past 30 years, MBAs have been taught that they don't go into business to make 'things' - they go into business to make profits. The stock market once was about companies making 'things' - now, it's just people betting on other peoples' bets.

[Vanje]

117. He didnt cause this shit.

[bluestate10]

155. The OP likely does not care. The shortsightedness is typical of too many, nt

[Richardo]

2. If you think that the stock market only affects rich Uncle Pennybags from Monopoly, enjoy yourself.

[MH1]

3. A whole lotta Main Streeters have 401k's and other stocks.

I am not on your side, no.

But I expected it. Wish I could say I'd know which way to run before it happened. I'm taking a bath like the rest of us 9-to-5ers with the 401. But at least I'm diversified, and my stock portfolio isn't the only thing I care about in life.

[gkhouston]

144. It's not the only thing, but since we're currently unemployed, it's

pretty damned important. It's bad enough to be living on your "savings". It's worse to see those evaporating, too.

[dmallind]

4. Where exactly do you think unions invest their pension funds?

Or cities and counties their rainy day accounts?

[Amonester]

13. Yep. To feel 'happy' all these people get badly hurt, many of them

liberals, is quite 'heartless' to say the least...

http://october2011.org/freedomplaza

[bluestate10]

156. I have other words, but none as charitable as "heartless". nt

[HereSince1628]

22. In clouds, that's why there is gold at the end of the rainbow!

It's gut wrenching to anyone watching their retirement funds.

[MichiganVote]

6. Well thanks, since most of Wall Street is about Main Street's pensions--U R in a minority

[Ineeda]

7. Don't forget those of us whose 401k's and tiny pensions

are going in the toilet too. MILLIONS of us!!! Unrec a brazillion, you heartless bastard.

[Mojorabbit]

42. + a gazillion. nt

[dionysus]

8. actually, ye of little understanding, millions of working people have money in the stock market via

401k or mutual funds, even pension funds.

so bless your heart.

[DrDan]

9. oh really - all those with tanking 401Ks - no sympathy from you, huh

you equate the typical 401K, 403B holder as "Wall Street"

What a warped view.

[Common Sense Party]

166. Damn. I can't believe I agree with you about something.

But spot on.

[valerief]

10. Yes. nt

[backscatter712]

11. It doesn't hurt the banksters when the Dow falls.

When the market rises, the banksters profit.

When the market falls, the banksters still profit.

[liberal_mama]

38. You are so right!

They'll buy up shares at low prices and become even richer!

[jpak]

15. and those with 401K's are which economy?

:thumbsdown:

[WinkyDink]

16. Well, I ain't with you, that's for sure.

[polichick]

17. Good grief, have you never heard of 401ks??

[Telly Savalas]

164. Not to mention defined benefit pensions

which don't exactly invest all their funds in baseball cards and coins issued by the Franklin Mint.

[sinkingfeeling]

18. No, there was another DUer yesterday doing the same.

[emulatorloo]

19. The rich will do fine, They pull out their money high, and then they buy low.

It is the mainstreet and middle class that will suffer the most damage.

[Common Sense Party]

169. No, they don't. The rich people are bad investors, too.

And their financial advisors aren't fortune tellers.

[elleng]

21. YES, quite alone.

Today, moving up.

http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/overview/overview.asp

P.S., you're clearly not speaking for ALL Goldsteins.

[DevonRex]

Good grief. You like seeing people's retirement funds disappear?

That being said, my investments are doing okay.

[PassingFair]

152. Maybe people should pull them out before they disappear.

Cut and run and let it sink.



Leave the fuckers holding the bag.

Now.

[DevonRex]

173. I think that may be a good idea. Go to cash, T notes, gold.

[slipslidingaway]

24. Yes, many people have retirement money in the market. I see in another thread you are betting ...

on a wall street collapse.

[Goldstein1984]

29. "Betting" in the sense of expecting, and planning accordingly

When a nation/culture/economy is lost in the woods, it's best not to invest in the practices that got us here.

I have a 401k, none of it invested in stocks.

[dmallind]

32. Which means none of it has seen the massive gains I STILL have from the last couple years. nt

[Goldstein1984]

74. Those gains in the market have been, in large part...

based on the peasantification of workers.

Layoffs, downsizing, restructing... all at the expense of workers.

Your success in the market is built, in significant part, on the unemployment and underemployment of others.

Bully for you.

[dmallind]

87. And would it have stopped without my (non-IPO) investment?

Remember that absent IPOs, wher I have neither the skill nor the contacts to play well, no stock purchases generate funds for the companies themselves. Why bother then not taking some of the vicarious gains, especially since there is no link whatsoever etween stock trading and corporate policy (easily demonstrated by the exactly equal corporate policies of public and private companies in the same market space), no matter how much you want to impugn me for investing more successfully.

[Goldstein1984]

89. Actually, I lost nothing in 2008 because we pulled out beforehand

So I nothing lost that I needed to regain.

Stock prices are based on psychological factors more than anything else--confidence, lack of confidence... They respond to things like downsizing indirectly through encouraging investment in companies that are "finding efficiencies." The relationship is not between stock trading an corporate policy, it is between corporate policy and stock trading.

Man, but Democrats have sunk to nothing but a boatload of dollar-driven Republicans.

[dmallind]

91. So all companies should emulate the most successful 3 non traded companies

Cargill
Koch
Bechtel.

Man Democrats have sunk to nothing more than slogan-drien shallow "thinkers"

[Goldstein1984]

97. I used to work for a Koch subsidiary

So I wouldn't wish Kock practices on anyone.

But I think that people should invest ethically, and not kid themselves.

[dmallind]

96. I'm "regaining" nothing - started my investing when the Dow was at 3700. DCA is a wonderful thing.

The trouble with doomers is they always pretend everyone put in their full investment at the height of the market and need to pull it all out at the bottom. In reality the vast majority are like me who put in money through either 401ks or active trading, buying at both low and high points, seeing dividends, and selling when and what we choose.

[PassingFair]

157. No, it wouldn't "have stopped"...but we don't have to give a

shit if you lose it now.

Take it out if you fear collapse.

I think we need to tear it down and
build a new one.

[slipslidingaway]

39. That's fine, but many people do not pay as much attention ...

and stay invested.

"Our financial investments are largely a bet that the Wall Street based economy is going to collapse."

[Goldstein1984]

77. Yes...

That's our investment strategy, recommended by the person who advised us to get out of the market in early 2008.

We didn't see the losses everyone else did because we "bet on" alternatives to the market and our adviser's prediction that it was going to collapse.

Pretty simple. Betting on Team A is, by default, a bet that Team B is going to fail.

[slipslidingaway]

148. Maybe it would be helpful to share these ideas on DU n/t

[SOS]

63. Lots of talk about 401k

After Enron, Long Term Capital, the dot com collapse and the 2008 disaster, why would anyone
put their retirement money in the stock market?

The Dow, right now, is lower than it was in 2000.
A 401K invested in a Dow index fund is worth much less today (minus hidden fees and inflation)
than it was eleven years ago.

Put your 401k money in a fixed fund and forget about this rigged casino!

On edit:
What is happening now is the annual fleecing of the working man's retirement and investment capital.
They don't call it "a round of profit taking" for nothing.
The big players are locking in their profits and moving into cash positions.
The 10 year note yield is 2.5%!
The wealthy are locking in their massive gains, while the worker's retirement takes another crewcut.

[dmallind]

71. minus fees and inflation, but you forgot to add dividends and dollar cost averaging? Why? nt

[Goldstein1984]

93. People once purchased stock for different reasons

They invested for the long-term, for dividends and growth.

Now,the stock market is mostly about profit taking. Nothing is produced.

[Common Sense Party]

167. The Dow is 30 stocks. Who the hell only invests in 30 large industrial

stocks?

My 401(k) is bigger than it was in 2000. So are most people's--and that's not even including their contributions. That's just investment growth. Has it grown huge? No. It's been a lousy decade.

But it has grown. That's because I'm diversified. It's not all in 30 large stocks. It's in large stocks, small stocks, international stocks, bonds, and real estate.

People were saying the same thing in the mid-to-late 70's that you're saying now. They were wrong then, you're wrong now. If you have time before retirement (10 to 30 years), you'd be foolish not to have some (50-75%) of your retirement money in equities.

[Lucky 13]

25. Enjoy watching my tiny 401k go to shit. Thanks.

[abelenkpe]

47. You can move your 401k allocations around

and put them in safer things that won't be as vulnerable to the ups and downs of the market. Don't think any are guaranteed like a savings account tho. They won't go up fast during good times but they also won't go down during bad. Might be best until real reforms come to the financial markets. The US passed financial reform but the republicans are doing all they can to delay those changes, de-fund regulation and outright block certain provisions. So not much has changed yet...

This is why we need to elect more liberal and progressive dems to reduce obstruction and help real change take place. Replacing conservative dems that vote with republicans would be good too. Anyway, looks like the market has turned around so don't be too blue. Good luck!

[Lucky 13]

83. The market is fluxing wildly today. High volatility.

I don't think cashing in after a moderate crash like yesterday is smart. So many people did that after 2008 and lost a huge chunk of their retirement savings, if they had waited it out it would have recovered. I'm young enough that I should probably ride this out and wait for an economic bounce-back. (Yes, I am still counting on a recovery... some day... hopefully in the next 30 years...)

But your point is well taken. The tough part is, the rules are changing. Younger investors are always advised to invest nearly 100% in moderate to high risk funds with little in cash/bonds/gold. I'm not sure that's the best advice any more, but not being in finance, what the hell do I know? I'm not financially saavy enough to understand how to navigate appropriately.

So I, like the rest of non-wall street folks, are kind of left to the wolves.

And to add insult to injury, assholes on a DEMOCRATIC WEBSITE, laugh at our misfortunes.

Fantastic. It's a mad world.

[PassingFair]

159. Stop trying to get something for nothing. Put it in a savings account.

Please don't forget that YOU'RE BETTING when you "invest" on Wall Street.

BETTING means that you could lose.

Get it?

We shouldn't be depositing our retirement savings
in a CASINO, should we?

[Common Sense Party]

168. You'd just be locking in losses if you do that now.

The time to cash out of stock funds is when those funds have gone UP--locking in gains--not after they've gone down.

[GliderGuider]

27. No pleasure, but a grim realism at watching the inevitable unfold

Lots of people will be hurt by this. Not Somalia-level hurt maybe, but more pain than our insulated North American generation has ever felt. But it was frankly inevitable.

Ecologists are familiar with the term "overshoot", when a population exceeds the carrying capacity of its environment. The result is always a die-off. Always. Just as the entire human species is now in ecological overshoot (by 50% at last estimate), so are many of the structures we have created in our rush towards ... towards what, exactly? Our global industrial, economic and financial systems are most definitely in overshoot. The 2008 crash marked the beginning of a stairstep descent into economic dieoff, one painful bump at a time. This is the second step down our "Stairway to Hell". The good times are gone, and they ain't coming back.

[dmallind]

36. Bollocks - why didn't Europe "overshoot" with its many-times US density centuries ago? nt

[GliderGuider]

40. Because population densities don't necessarily determine overshoot.

Overshoot in the classical sense is related to food supplies and other basic life-sustaining resources. It's fairly easy to maintian food supplies of 2500 calories/day for fairly dense populations. Europe didn't have a very high standard of living a few centuries ago, if you'll recall, and they hadn't yet encountered fossil fuels.

In any event, if you don't think human overshoot is a real possibility, an argument on the internet isn't about to change your mind.

[Art_from_Ark]

60. Europe had wars that reduced populations

Many European countries also had colonies that provided foodstuffs and where excess population could be sent, not to mention immigration to the United States and other New World countries.

[dmallind]

And yet none of those substantial today, and still many times our density. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

80. Yes, but their populations have leveled off

And they have developed industries that provide them with means of exchange with which they can purchase food from external sources if necessary.

[GliderGuider]

75. And let's not forget the Black Death. Now there was a die-off.

Yes, the key point is that in the past there were unexploited parts of the globe that could be used in one way or another to support European populations. This is no longer true.

[dmallind]

70. Oh it's a real possibility for sure - just not a fact.

resource availability is much less of a problem than resource distribution and usage however.

[Goldstein1984]

41. That's basically my view

The interconnection between Wall Street and Main Street is a deal with the devil. It creates an investment in the status quo that impedes "change we can believe in."

We have an unsustainable system based on consumption and myths about unlimited growth and the human potential to overcome challenges. We're following a map that is leading us over a cliff.

I'm educated as a biologist and engineer, and your point about carrying capacity, overshoot, and die-off will prove prophetic, in addition to being good science.

As I noted in another post, I am divested of anything directly related to stocks, as both a matter of economics and a matter of principle.

[GliderGuider]

52. I've been watching the whole clusterfuck unfold since about 2004.

There's nothing like some ecological perspective to put a whole different spin on what's going down right now. Unfortunately, without that perspective it's hard to see this as anything but a set of disconnected problems, when it's really anything but that. I call it the 3E crisis: energy, ecology and economics are all interacting to mess up the nice game plan we humans had mapped out for ourselves.

I got out of the market in 2008, just moments before the crash, and never got back in.

[Goldstein1984]

72. We were fortunate

We had rolled several pension plans into an account with a major investment company, out our local agent advised many of her customers to get out of stocks and real estate in early 2008. We did, and remain out of stocks to this day, as both a matter of economics and principle.

Our agent was fired for giving bearish advice to her clients at a time the investment company was still officially bullish, and she now has her own firm, to which we've moved our investments. She actually recommended that I cash out several private pensions I've accumulated over the years, and that, rather than roll them into IRAs with her, we use the money to pay off secured debt, such as car loans.

I think there is a shit-storm coming, and there's too much investment in the status quo to allow the objectivity to see it. It can't be prevented because the system is what we call tightly-coupled and complex, so that failure will come when a critical combination of components fail, and complex failure in tightly-coupled complex systems (e.g. space shuttles, refineries, airliners, economies) is always catastrophic.

[GliderGuider]

82. Thank you. Is it ever nice to read someone who gets it.

Yes, we're facing a sand-pile problem that goes all the way from the penthouse financial boardrooms to the bottom of the barren oceans. And the sand has started to slide.

[Goldstein1984]

86. Based on what I'm reading in the responses to my very pointed

post, I see why the change we need is impossible, except through catastrophic failure of the status quo.

Most of the replies I would have expected from Republicans, yet many even accuse me of being what they sound like.

Ironically, some of the replies accuse me of being exactly the opposite, a far-left whacko.

This is just more evidence that a Democratic Party that used to be an alternative to the Right has now drifted to the Right.

Of course, this is all by design. Giving everyone a stake in the status quo ensures major support for the status quo, even when that status quo is path over a cliff.

I have five grandchildren whose opportunities are being destroyed by this crowd. I feel sad.

[bvar22]

130. We did too, 2007.

Thank jebus we listened to the right people.
We bought Bubble Proof property in the Rural South
with access to plenty of clean water.
We live there now,
and Wall Street can live or die without our money or concern.

[abelenkpe]

30. Think it's turned around now....nt

[GliderGuider]

37. You do? Berlusconi agrees to do something-or-other and we're saved?

Not on your life.

[abelenkpe]

48. No look at the dow

The economy is definitely on thin ice. Greece, Ireland, etc etc. It sucks out there. Just saying it looks like the dow stopped it's downward slide for the day.

[GliderGuider]

56. The DOW is still wobbling around like a newborn colt. If anyone sneezes she's going back down. nt

[kenny blankenship]

31. I don't know if you're alone, but you'll have to enjoy yourself without me.

[Javaman]

33. you are alone.

taking joy in the misery of others is sick.

Regardless of whom the person is.

[Johonny]

66. +1

[JohnnyRingo]

34. I slept in so I didn't get a chance to kiss my money goodbye....

but I know what you mean.

Though I have relative peanuts invested (solar panels), the masters of money are scrambling to hand off the losses to the stooges. Only the shrewdest will succeed in this trainwreck.

[True Earthling]

35. Alone? - I hope so

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Yep and you should realize how it affects grandma

you see Mr Slimm lost a few BILLION over the last four days... he will eat tomorrow, he will drive tomorrow, he will have a roof over his head.

Some of your neighbors, on the other hand, might have to chose... meds or food.

Yep people are that clueless

[denverbill]

45. No, lots of Freepers, teabaggers, and conversative talkers are right there with you.

Seeing as how virtually my entire life savings is still there, I'm a bit upset.

But have your fun. Here's hoping bad stuff happens to you too!

[Uben]

49. No, all the republicans are right there with ya!

Come on over to Free Republic and we'll sign you up! You'll get a super double secret decoder ring, a list of stupid responses to help when people ask you questions, and a "I'm Stupid" t-shirt.

BUT WAIT! THERE"S MORE ! !

FOr the $1000 donation you will receive, absolutely free, your own Bubba BAss and a "Get a brane, stoopid!" sign.

Don't walk, run!

[L0oniX]

50. What will the unemployed, homeless and hungry do now?

[Arkansas Granny]

54. Oh, sure. I'm just busting a gut laughing while my retirement account dwindles.

[spanone]

55. i would hope so.

[Blue-Jay]

57. How will financial collapse make your life better?

Some would agree with you...

[MilesColtrane]

58. No, I'm sure Eric Cantor and all the other Republicans who set themselves up to short...

equities in the event that they could push the country into default are watching it and smiling too.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

59. Given that many ordinary American's retirement funds are heavily invested, I would hope yes. nt

[ZombieHorde]

61. The part of me that considers driving into traffic enjoys watching the stock market fall. nt

[daa]

62. Yes you are nt

[Spike89]

64. You know there is a single economy

It is true that those at the top have the means and controls in place to ensure that their personal losses are mitigated when the economy goes south (many even profit from selling short and other "negative" investments). Your enjoyment is totally misguided--the market falling only hurts the weaker people (economically speaking) who actually may be living directly, or indirectly off their investments.
For instance, I work for a non-profit, in good years we are able to contribute our surplus income into an investment fund that allows us to pull from it during the years when we run at a deficit. In practice, the investment fund is one of our primary income sources--funding our mission. When the stock market tanks, we hurt and jobs are at risk.
Everything is tied together. Virtually no economic weakness of any kind is isolated to the rich--it will always harm the poor people first and more significantly. I'm pro luxury tax, but even that super-targetted "anti-rich-person" policy will harm poor people (but is often mitigated by other benefits). For instance, a luxury tax on high-end motorhomes/tour buses (say $1.5 million+) obviously isn't going to directly affect many middle class people. However, there may be a drop in the number of the buses sold, meaning some factory workers making buses could lose their jobs (alternately, if demand for buses remains high, the rich may buy less caviar or whatever they blow their money on, hurting another segment).

[LanternWaste]

65. I imagine many teenagers who read dystopic, badly-written, hack-authored science fiction novellas...

I imagine many teenagers who read dystopic, badly-written, hack-authored science fiction novellas, projecting their fantasies into the realm of non-fiction are enjoying it also.

[yawnmaster]

68. NO you aren't the only one, but I'm not sure I'd like to be with the company you keep. eom

[Goldstein1984]

69. Sorry, wasn't doing a hit and run, just wasn't at my computer for a bit

And I see I am basically alone.

I do understand all that you say, and I think what most of you are saying is that you have a large investment in a status quo that is, in the long term, unsustainable. Which is part of the problem in achieving the change we need.

The nation's shift to the Right, towards empire and militarism, is a function of a status quo based on consumption. "Vital national interests" have replaced defense as a justification for more military action. The growing American militarism is more about protecting your 401ks than about defense.

Your investments in the status quo, clearly driven by self-interest, are investments in a status quo that is destructive and unsustainable. Millions are being killed to protect your investments. An ecosystem is being altered to protect your investments. Millions will die in the future for your secure retirements. Your 401ks are the reason 5% of the world's population is doing 50% of the world's military spending.

Much of the gains in the DOW over the past two years have been the result of massive layoffs and restructuring of the American workforce from livable wages to subsistence wages or none at all. The revival of the stock market following the meltdown is being built on the peasantification of workers.

Enjoy retirement.

[DevonRex]

76. Oh dear. Nt

[GliderGuider]

85. +1. I think you have a very clear view of what's going on.

But you won't get many attaboys for your vision here right now, I'm afraid. Nobody in Troy liked Cassandra very much either.

[dmallind]

92. As opposed to kind loving private companies like Cargill, Koch and Bechtel. nt

[Goldstein1984]

98. I've worked for both publicly and privately owned companies

including a Koch subsidiary.

And I don't see the difference.

On edit: Typo

[dmallind]

103. Neither do I - that's my point. Stock trading has zero impact then, right? nt

[Goldstein1984]

110. As I wrote elsewhere

Stock trading (shareholders) have little impact on corporate policy, but corporate policy does have an impact on stock prices.

When I said I don't see the difference, I meant in terms of putting the dollar above everything else. Publicly-traded companies certainly have the additional demand of worrying about stock prices, though, since they use stock incentives as part of senior leadership's compensation.

[dmallind]

114. So explain again why private companies behave in the same way, and then

why my investing in equities has anything at all to do with the behavior of corporations.

[dionysus]

111. ROFL... you're a ray of sunshine, aintcha?

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

127. Humph. You ecomurderering, peasantmaking PERSON, you!!

[raouldukelives]

73. Watching the main driver of global imperialism

destruction of the environment, child labor & attacks against civilians go down? Doesn't bother this far left liberal wacko. But if profiting off of those things makes you happy I hear it's a good buying opportunity.

[DevonRex]

79. Oh my. Nt

[dmallind]

90. Please detail the link between these things and public rather than private enterprise

Private non-traded companies by size:

Cargill
Koch
Bechtel

Yep without that stock market you would obviously see non-imperialistic, green and enlightened companies like these instead.

[raouldukelives]

136. Just doing my best not be an enabler

Would those companies be of the size & scope they are without the stock market? They very well could be. Maybe even bigger! I am an utterly clueless freak in these matters but I've always felt if I opposed a companies or nations actions then turning around and making money from those actions would make me a tremendous hypocrite. Your results may vary.

[FrenchieCat]

78. Wow....interesting as to what you enjoy in life!

Watching American's 401Ks be reduced in value sounds like a great pastime, I guess....
but only to some!

[DevonRex]

81. Check out his post just a few lines up. It's interesting.

[Whisp]

94. I don't think you have a clue.

I'm no fan of Wall street as most everyone else here, but a crash will affect us all in very bad ways and enjoying watching it is pretty damn sick if you ask me.

[Goldstein1984]

95. Think about what the stock market has become

Company A stock is worth $1 today.
They make an announcement that gives investors happy thoughts.
Investors rush to buy and Company A stock.
Company A stock increases in value to $2, with nothing but an announcement as cause.
Next day, lots of investors sell Company A stock and make 100% profit.
Company A has produced nothing.
Investors have produced nothing.
Yet there is profit from the mere shuffling of paper.

This is, in particular, what is wrong in general.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Then push for the kind of fiscal policies that will change that

oh never mind... enjoy the crash.

[Goldstein1984]

108. I do push, by how I spend money

I'm fortunate that I make about three times the national average wage, so I operate on the assumption than when I vote with my dollars I essentially have three votes.

We are:
~Boycotting all nonessential spending (No latest gadgets; repairing rather than replacing goods; no dining our or movies or coffee; no vacations involving travel; paid off and keeping older vehicles; no Holiday spending.).
~Buying non-corporate (small, locally produced, locally owned) whenever possible.
~Investing ethically (sustainable, non-military industrial complex).
~Investing is self-sufficiency.
~Supporting NGOs that work for the kind of change I want to see with methods I believe are effective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Congrats, but most of the people who are

getting hosed are not the Carlos Slimms of the world.

Sorry if I do this

[GliderGuider]

102. I can never remember if "Ponzi scheme" is supposed to be hyphenated.

The stock market today is both a Ponzi scheme based on assumptions of continuous growth, and a confidence trick based on retaining the confidence of investors. Continuous growth is impossible, and confidence is a fragile commodity. When the pie stops growing and confidence fails, catastrophe is not far behind.

Nicole Foss, who writes as Stoneleigh on the doomerish realistic financial blog The Automatic Earth maintains that the biggest threat we face in a market collapse is rapid deflation, as debt (aka money) evaporates due to the collapse of the Ponzi scheme, and the velocity of money falls due to the collapse of confidence. We're facing both those risks at this time.

[PassingFair]

160. And many of these posters are viewing it as a RETIREMENT ACCOUNT!

And feel that they shouldn't be in a position to "lose"
their unearned gains.

Remember when people tried to ONLY BET WHAT THEY COULD AFFORD TO LOSE?

[JoePhilly]

107. You clearly have no idea how stock prices move, or what happens

to the money.

But funnier than that ... its obvious that you don't know whether the market is UP or DOWN or by HOW MUCH since this date one year ago.

So let me help you. Since this date one year ago, the DOW is UP about 7.6%. That's a pretty good rate of return, better than you would get in a bank from a CD.

And then of course there is this ... the person who invested on this date last summer bought at about 10,700 or so. And the smart investor locked in some gains when the DOW reached around 12,500 between then and now.

The mistake you make is one that many non-investors make. They assess stock market decreases against the most recent high, and they ignore the long term.

To make this point even clearer. Investors who jumped in when the DOW was at about 6500 in March of 2009, have seen HUGE gains. And if they are smart investors, they captured some gains as the market moved up since then.

btw ... during the Bush years, the DOW stayed in a rough range between 10,500 and 12,000. Spiked to 14k for about 10 minutes, and then fell to 6500 in March 2009, but returned to about 11,000 by April of 2010.

I think the key point for you is that you should definitely stay out of the market.

[Goldstein1984]

153. I didn't make that mistake...

Up to when we pulled out in early 2008 we benefited greatly from the long term.

We also benefited greatly when the stock of a company I worked for at the time dropped from $25/share to $0.78/share based only on rumors that they were involved in the Enron scandel, and I moved a good sum of money into a Roth IRA as it rose through $0.90 a share and eventually went back to $25/share.

So I think I've benefited from both the long-term stability of the market in previous times and the short-term hypochondria the market is subject to (and which is the bread and butter of most traders).

I left the market and moved to gold, made money there, and now I've pulled out of that because the rise there is probably also fear-based and hypochondriacal.

I'm doing quite well for someone who doesn't understand the system. That aside, I'm really just following the advice of a good advisor who was fired by a major financial firm after she advised all of her clients to pull out of stocks when the company was still being bullish on the market.

Time will tell if we're right about the market to come, not the debate here.

[quiller4]

99. I am sure not enjoying it. I know how many Americans with modest

incomes depend substantially on the stock market for their pension. For example EVERY union pension plan is invested to one degree or another in the market. Large losses in the market mean small payments to retirees and higher contribution requirements for those still working. If you have to negotiate higher pension contributions from an employers, then you are usually looking at reduced wages to compensate.

It is a fallacy that only the rich are impacted by the stock market.

[guitar man]

100. I understand it affects everybody

But lately it seems us little guys are going down no matter what, if that's the case, I wouldn't mind taking the big shots with us....

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. LEt me ask you somehing

Mr. Slimm lost four BILLION over the last four days... (He is the richest man in the world) You honestly believe Carlos Slimm will miss a meal tomorrow? Granted, he may lose some sleep, but he will eat tomorrow, still have a roof over head, still drive his ten year old Nissan... and live in the middle class neighborhood in Mexico City...

Now answer that one, and you will realize just how stupid we are taking them down with us is.

[guitar man]

115. Yeah I know

I was being crass and tongue in cheek more than anything, I'm in a pretty raw mood today...

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. So are many of us...

But part of the solution lies in this... realizing that we are working class and need to start acting like it.

[WilliamPitt]

105. (facepalm)

[Vanje]

112. I did NOT cause this shit!

Bitch to those that did!

[Yavin4]

113. Buy Gold and Silver

Hold the hard.

[Vanje]

116. Buy gold and silver? Ha!

I dont have sufficient income to buy both food and gas.


Don't blame people who are too poor to have a tangible stake in the stock market, for its failure.
Blame the ones who actually caused this fucking shit.

[Yavin4]

118. Better than a Savings Account or a CD which Gets Eaten Alive by Inflation

Silver trades at $40/oz.

[Vanje]

121. Yeah.

if you have any money.


Fuckn go for it.

[Vanje]

124. I wish I had some

[Goldstein1984]

122. That is my point

There are two economies: The economy of Wall Street (and those invested in Wall Street via stocks, obviously), and the economy of Main Street, which includes enough people invested in Wall Street to shout down those pointing out that many have little direct stake in Wall Street.

I do have the resources to invest in Wall Street, and I choose not to for ethical and financial reasons. As others have pointed out, it's a Ponzi scheme, and much of the success of stocks is built on the suffering of workers.

And, as the vast majority of replies to my original post have proven, financial insterest overrides all others for the majority of people. "Never mind that my stocks went up because unemployment went up, what matters is ME and MY retirement."

I'm done here.

[Vanje]

123. I am hungry

THat is all

[Goldstein1984]

125. I'm sorry that you are hungry...

and that the health of the stock market is, in part, a function of your hunger and the hunger of many.

When a critical mass are hungry, then that will not be all, that will be enough. We're approaching a threshold of suffering being brought about by those with a stake in the status quo, and those people can be expected to oppose the change that is needed, violently if necessary. After all, we are talking about their retirements, their $$$.

[Alexr]

172. Yes Who Can?

We have currently a huge transfer of gold from the middle class to the top, I am wondering what will be the next step?

[Vanje]

126. ++++++++++

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx4oFRz8LOA

[bvar22]

132. Gold & Silver....yuck.

Doesn't taste very good & hard to chew,
plus it is only worth whatever Dubai says it is worth,
currently a hyper inflated bubble.

The Heavy Weights will start a run any day now,
and the suckers will be left holding the bag.

OTOH: Gold Coins were a good medium of exchange for food, water, and ammunition in the Argentina Economic Collapse of 2000.
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/10.08/tshtf1.html

My wife & I thought about buying metals when we cashed out our 401s in 2007, but decided to buy dirt instead.
We live there now debt free, and produce a good percentage of our own food.

Good Luck with your Gold.

[Yavin4]

141. Thanks.

Swapped out my mutual fund and my savings account for gold and bought gold two weeks ago. In the past two weeks, it's made me a nice little profit.

Now, I am slowly adding more and adding silver. I'm doing much better with the metals than I did with my savings.

[slipslidingaway]

147. Gold chart ...

it could very well go higher, just throwing up a word of caution to others.

The really smart money was buying gold and silver a decade ago.

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djiagold1980.html

http://www.gold-eagle.com/charts/35yeargold.html

[Yavin4]

149. Silver Is Still A Good Buy

Gold is going higher because there's no way that the U.S. can pay off its debts.

[Rex]

128. I am completely indifferent, are my grocery prices going to go up?

I really wish the parasitic side of capitalism would take a break and let the other 98% have a little bit of sunshine.

[Adsos Letter]

129. No, but I hope the group you're in is small. I'm NOT one of 'em.

:thumbsdown:

[Romulox]

131. Profoundly ignorant. nt

[proud patriot]

134. Well I certainly hope those with you enjoying this are a minority

:wow:

[TwilightGardener]

135. I hope so.

[hiphopnation]

137. if you're not you should be

god, what a disconnect. where do you think the penions of a good many folks on main street are invested, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

[DCBob]

138. I hope so.

[badtoworse]

139. A lot of small investors and 401k investors are being hurt.

Only a (fill in your favorite pajorative) would enjoy that. There is something seriously wrong with you.

[Puregonzo1188]

140. A lot of people's retirements are involved in the stock market, even if they're not rich.

I mean I'm a Marxist and really have nothing but ill-will for Wall Street, but real people I know are also being hurt by this.

[Throd]

142. I hope so.

[Goldstein1984]

143. I simply believe that the system...

underlying the stock market, and much of the exploitation in the world, is intrinsically evil and exploitative.

I actually pity all of you. (Even as you all theatrically pity me with face-palms, etc) You're really just tools for a Few people making a LOT more money than you do. They toss you a few crumbs to give you a stake in their game, and you become supporters out of short-sighted self-interest.

If you profit off investments in BP, you profit from their cost-cutting-induced wrongs.
If you profit from investments in chemical companies, you profit from their pollution.
Et cetera.

You've all sold out for a seat at the table and an impossible promise that you can change the system from within.

Look at all the people hurt by the market's drop? How about looking at all the people routinely sacrificed for its success?

Better get along now, your crowd is moving to the Right and you're falling behind.

[GliderGuider]

145. Thanks for laying it on the line.

It's surprising how easy it is for people to value lucre over lives. I don't think this is what the '60s were about - all of us becoming our own stockbroker like grotesque caricatures of Jerry Rubin.

ETA: Those who are worried about evaporating investments would do well to switch them to something very low risk for the next 6 months or longer. If your pension is with a fund that has it in equities, well at least you won't be alone in your pain. And you'll probably still have a pension of some sort - unlike most people on the planet.

It's time for all of us to start thinking about what we'll do when the recession turns into a depression and the depression becomes essentially permanent. This market meltdown isn't just a problem with Wall Street. It's a global phenomenon, and its being underpinned by a lot of physical changes in the world - things like peak oil, climate change, problems with the food supply etc. Bitching about it and beating on posters who point out that the whole economic edifice is just a facade being carried on the backs of the disadvantaged isn't going to feed, clothe and house you 10 years from now.

[Goldstein1984]

150. The Children of the 60s protested for peace

then went on to prove it wasn't peace, but saving their own asses that made them march in the streets. Then they went on to join the Reagan Revolution, so-called free markets, and eventually the dismantling of unions and the means of US production in general. Now, as Republican and the Democratic Right, they oppose a return to the draft because they have a steady stream of economic refuges, joining the military out of economically-induced patriotism, to do the dying for them, and a draft would end the very lucrative wars by putting everyone at risk, not just the nation's throw-away citizens.

What things do George W Bush and Barack H Obama have in common?
~They're both tools of corporations, as are their supporters.
~They each have two daughters who will never enlist in the military or want for anything.
~They both will only every walk on the graves of other people's children at national cemeteries.

This nation is so screwed if this is how far Right the Democratic "Underground" is. Evidently, they're underground because they're trying to tunnel their way into the Republican party.

[truedelphi]

146. Excellent analysis. And it's not just the stock market - it is the "finanacial advisers."

Having lived in a very wealthy suburb for more years than I care to count, it was amazing to find out how many people I knew who issued a sigh of relief after Madoff went down.

"By oh boy, was I lucky! I am so glad that I never invested with him, though my sister <aunt, uncle, brother> did. Boy, I just thought the rate of returns was too good to be true."

And then sadly, that person would come to find out that the investment adviser who controlled their retirement funds HAD invested it with Madoff. And in some cases - all of it was with Madoff.

And anyone working for any entity with pension funds, IRA 401 K, etc - how much knpowledge and control does any working individual have over that mone/. Where is it? Who really has it right now! Does the New Bernie Madoff have it?

[Goldstein1984]

151. We were fortunate. Our "financial advisor" bucked her bosses

and gave us bearish advice when her company was still officially bullish. She lost her office (the company fired her), and most of her clients followed for the silliest of all reasons--she put our interests first.

[ipaint]

165. +1 nt.

[Common Sense Party]

170. You're so much wiser and more virtuous than us lowly peons!

Please! Be even MORE condescending to us! Tell us MORE of your wisdom and purity! We beseech you!

[ellie]

154. Yes.

In 2008 when the market tanked I almost lost my job and my 401K lost money. So, I really don't want to lose my job and would like something to retire on.

[CakeGrrl]

158. Yes. This impacts the 401(k)s of working people, including me.

Careful where you wish harm.

[anneboleyn]

171. And many people we know as well. Who would want to revel in the misfortune of working people

whose lives are being impacted by something they have no control over? Seems odd to me.

[Balbus]

161. No. There's more than one idiot in this world.

[Lyric]

162. It's not so much about enjoying the fall in and of itself, because it affects us too.

The "joy" of watching it crash is because it's one of the very, very, VERY few times that the rich people have to suffer (even if only a little bit) right along with the rest of us.

[Philippine expat]

163. Considering most people realize that millions of those on the

lower end of the economic scale suffer when the stock market tanks then yes you pretty much are alone.
The stock market tanks and people on Main Street suffer, their 401s decline, union pension plans lose money,
the company they work for decides they need to lay off a few more people to make up the loses, etc.
You probably are not alone but hopefully you are in a very small minority

[Raine]

174. Be happy, be sad it doesn't matter because your feelings

have nothing to do with what happened. You feel what you feel ... :shrug:

[hack89]

175. No - there is no shortage of ignorant and spiteful people on DU. my

[pipi_k]

176. Well, since lots of ordinary people

have money in the stock market, delighting in seeing it fall is sort of like hating on a local business because it plays Fox News on its TVs and getting all giddy when it goes under.

Yeah, it hurts the one(s) at the top, but what about the people who worked there and are one paycheck away from being homeless?

That's really no better than dropping a bomb on an enemy and then saying "Oh well" when there's collateral damage.

[Chan790]

178. Yes.

There are not two economies, there isn't even a national economy. There's just the economy, universal and global and inescapable. It's overrun by bad actors and you're busy cheering the misery of others.

If the tent has gotten so big as to be permissive of that, then we have problems.

[Bluebear]

179. You must be having a ball today.