Here's what I don't get. Capitalism HAS failed, but no one is willing to admit it

[Taverner]

IN fact, some idiots want to double down on capitalism, thus making things far worse

What part of "colossal failure" does America not get?

[DURHAM D]

1. What's your preference?

[Xicano]

4. If it were up to me.

I like the idea of a merit based system. To me that has the incentive of capitalism without the ultra concentration of wealth and power of capitalism.

[tama]

Incentive for what? n/t

[hack89]

40. That's not an economic system. nt

[Taverner]

50. "Merit" is highly subjective

Let's take an example that should be pretty easy to reward merit: say a sales team. You sell 100 widgets, you get a 10% cut. You sell 500 widgets, you get a 15% cut, and so on.

Does this take into account all of the factors involved? Some salesmen in poor territories will inevitably make less than those in more prosperous territories.

'Let's equal them out, then' you might say. However, in capitalism, when a system is bringing in profit, people do not like to change it. They would fear that they'd be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Add to it that the Salesman in the more prosperous territory will feel as if his success is being punished.

I think we need to completely change the system - eliminate profit and growth as a yardstick, and replace them with something more sustainable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. A HIGHLY regulaed mixed economy...

which did work very well.

One that does not allow for monopolies and yes should include the very capitalist principle of a LIVING wage... read chapter ten in the Wealth for that one.

[fascisthunter]

18. This, I agree with...

mix is good.

[Capn Sunshine]

32. I am in total agreement with you

color me surprised. Common ground. I knew it had to exist!

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. See it is possible

:hi:

[swilton]

54. It's foolish to accept the notion that capitalism/communism

are zero sum, that if you don't have one you will automatically have the other....It's also foolish to assume that capitalism is finite or cannot be improved upon....

There are numerous examples in Europe of hybrid capitalist-socialist systems...

[JackRiddler]

72. Yes. The other answer...

is that anything today that doesn't begin with ecology and the knowledge that the biosphere sets the limits and is the greater system within which any "economy" must exist, is both in denial and setting us and our children and grandchildren up for a lot worse than mere economic failure.

[RKP5637]

2. That's the bottom line, isn't it. Probably if we did not have a corporate controlled M$M there

would be more talking about the failure of capitalism. IMO it's inevitable in the 21st century. The system makes no F'en sense except to those on the take, and eventually it will fail for them too.

[Supersedeas]

81. as long as you have the Biz Channel Chattering classes, there will always be

more push to deregulation and smaller government until there is nothing left of government but a business juggle with armed thugs posing as private security companies who are paid specifically to protect the interest of the rich and the rich only.

[RKP5637]

82. I often see us headed toward a dystopian future wherein corporations and

gangs of wealth become War Lords. Already wall street and the banks are running this country and are becoming larger, more powerful and more influential than the US gov.

It's not too much stretch of the imagination in my mind as to where the center of power could be in the future combined with the business juggle you discussed. And layered on that some type of a bizarre cult theocracy. In short, I see the potential for it to develop into one sh** hole for the masses.

We're at a crossroads and I don't think it's being handled too well.

[Supersedeas]

83. yep, the layers that you point out are already in place--if the masses get so fed up

that they turn to violence, all roads lead to dysfunction.

[Lindsay]

3. For some people, it's a religion.

And religion can't fail you; you can only fail religion.

(Hey, I didn't say they make sense.)

[BeyondGeography]

5. Keep your goals low and your overheads lower

[alfredo]

6. No, it has succeeded. The rich have won.

[leftstreet]

26. +1

[readmoreoften]

29. +1

[FarLeftFist]

7. The ONLY thing that could save us now is a HUGE jobs program

Which of course would be funded by our Govt, which I guess wouldn't be capitalism, but hey, capitalism has failed us. Time to take this in our own hands. Lets show these fucking corps that we will rebuild America without them and don't need their fucking greedy hands involved in every aspect of our lives. WE can rebuild America for the greater good of our society AND our future.

[tama]

15. I don't see how and why

To save what? The financial system based on debt and interest and the environmentally destructive (suicidal, to put it bluntly) consumerism? The ideology of continuous growth?

There is plenty of work to do, sure, but I don't see the need for "jobs" (ie. working for money/the financial system).

[Taverner]

21. Well, we need to repair our infrastructure, build bullet trains, rebuild the USDA and EPA...

Rebuild the FCC and FDA...

I could go on but you probably won't get it

We have record unemployment in this country, and its only going to get worse

Austerity will make it even worse than it would be if we did nothing

When someone loses their job, about 10-15 people are affected

[tama]

27. By all means

AFAIK what you refer to is work that you feel needs to be done, though I don't know the meaning of the acronyms you use. Not necessarily "jobs" defined as work done for the sake of money. If more work just for the sake of money and interest on money would be the crucial issue, then creating more and more jobs in the financial sector - more and more bankers, soldiers and politicians to protect money interests would be the solution.

Austerity, to my understanding, is something that is totally related to money and how (lack of) money restricts most of us humans from satisfying our basic needs and living in natural abundance.

As this box is collapsing like a house of cards, time to start thinking outside the box.

[FarLeftFist]

49. So you're saying Nationalization of industries for the betterment of our society?

Because that's where I was headed. Nothing will humble these fuckers quicker than showing them we can function as a society without them. Think of it, a society of people working for the common good of our society, and yes, it would be for a paycheck, but these workers, engineers, scientists, receptionists, etc. would be working directly for the federal govt. instead. A Nation of people working to make society a better place to live for us and future generations. This would put many people and industries back to work, lower unemployment, increase revenue, and scare the shit out of these corps who try to hold America hostage. They want to cry and complain? Tell them to see if any other country is willing to make them as rich as we do with our rampant consumerism.

[Taverner]

71. Yes. I. Am.

In fact I think we should have completely nationalized GM

We should nationalize Big Pharma, Big Oil and Big Defense

They have gotten too big and need the profit motive removed for a while

[tama]

73. Collectivize, commonize

IMHO starting from money would be prudent. Nationalize Fed and all banks, cancel (pay) all debts, create new money by citizens money - money created by giving all members of the common a sum of bitcoins / period of time and tax to avoid inflation and cumulation in just few hands. If you feel some form of money is still needed.

[alfredo]

28. First off, capitalism hasn't failed us, it has turned against us.

Any and all jobs programs will be rejected by the Republicans, unless it contains some blood money for the rich, and cuts to vital programs.

[tama]

8. Indeed

There still seems to be many layers of onion to peel (and few tears to shed) in the American capitalist mindset hypnotized by dollar and consumerism, before waking up to the new freedom full of wonderfull opportunities.

E.g. Zeitgeist movies are not bad, not bad at all for pealing the onion. :)

[arcane1]

9. They've done such a great job at equating capitalism and democracy

and so for many Americans they are two words that describe the same thing. This is why so many South American democracies have been described over the years as "regimes" run by a "strongman". If they are against American economic policy, then they are against "freedom" itself.

A very successful PR campaign, if you ask me! And pretty f-ing evil too.

[Waiting For Everyman]

13. I agree.

[Starry Messenger]

10. I think a lot of people admit it.

But until the "middle class" realizes that American capitalism wasn't their own special playtoy, rear-guard defenses of capitalism are going to get more and more vigorous.

[yellerpup]

11. Okay, I admit it.

Capitalism, with the aid of government, makes it possible for our retirement accounts to be robbed, the equity in our homes to be stolen, puts our lives in jeopardy with an every-man-for-himself healthcare system, allows banks to pay only fractional interest on savings accounts and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

We aren't charging the oil companies enough royalties on OUR natural resources. The oil, timber, minerals, etc., all belong to us. If they want to drill, or mine, or clear forests, then they should get a cut for their trouble, but WE should have the biggest share.

Taxes are so we can all benefit from public services, roads and parks and FDIC, and also help us care and protect those citizens who are unable to provide for themselves.

[marmar]

12. We're in the Weekend at Bernie's stage with capitalism......

They'll prop up the corpse as long as they can.

[MrDiaz]

16. what other

proven system would you rather our economy be run on?

[Taverner]

17. Personally, I'm all for Socialism

But I realize most of America is too stupid to go for that.

So I guess it is going to have to be a mix of whatever is left of Capitalism, and Socialism.

[MrDiaz]

19. HONESTLY

How many countries have proven that socialism works over a long period of time. I understand that socialism has alot of good systems, but why has it failed at so many places?

[Taverner]

23. Because "Socialism" is an umbrella term

For many different models. Marxist Leninism was vastly different than Swedish Socialism, which was vastly different than our WPA.

Thing is, Socialism is still being practiced in Europe. It was the liberalization of trade and banking that brought them to their knees.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. A HIGHLY regulaed mixed economy...

it worked very well thank you.

[Taverner]

24. It did and it didn't

When things were regulated, the inmates were still able to take over the asylum, and start the process of deregulation

That in itself shows we didn't go far enough with the New Deal

We should have nationalized businesses that were irresponsible. Throwing fines at a company does nothing.

[Cosmocat]

44. That isn't the economy, it is the government ...

[Taverner]

46. Yes but in the end the government sets the economic policy

I have no doubt Capitalism could be made better

But at this point there is no saving it

The capitalistic-political system has become so corrupted, it is beyond repair. This goes beyond the K-Street Revolving door and campaign contributions. This goes back to who watches the watchers - and in the end, unless there is a mutual check and balance system, it will lead to corruption.

Take the profit motive out of the economic system, however, and there is less of a drive to become corrupt. Yes, corruption happened in Socialist states, but usually because THEY had no effective check and balance system either.

[Cosmocat]

45. PROPERLY regulated ...

Does not have to be heavily regulated ...

[Taverner]

48. I think it does

What we know now is that if someone can steal, they will. If someone can lie for profit, they will.

As a result, every last thing done by banks, consumers, corporations and governments has to be 100% transparent, or we'll be right back here in 20 years.

[tama]

25. Define "our economy"?

Do you mean by "economy" what the Mass Media hypnotizes people to think, that economy equals this money system?

Or how do you feel about the original meaning of the word: taking care of home? How do these two meanings relate in your perception?

[liberal_mama]

22. Escalation of Committment

They'll take our country back into a severe depression to try to prove a point. If it doesn't work now, why would it work 5 years from now?

[Ilsa]

30. I agree. Pure capitalism concentrates wealth in the hands of a few,

and everyone else works to barely get by, if that. The money ends up controlling the legislators and eventually the courts. There is no justice for those unable to pay up. It's like a Monopoly game.

[Rex]

31. If we were just to bring back well regulated markets in the banking

and energy sector...we could fix a lot of this mess. NOT that that will happen...to much money left to steal.

[readmoreoften]

33. Capitalism will never fail capitalists. It is only failing the majority of humanity.

Capitalism will never just disappear. It has to be ended as a system. It can only be ended as a system when it is no longer accepted as a system. Once it is no longer accepted, it can only be stopped by the people who do the work of creating and maintaining everything. The have the power to stop giving profits to the capitalists and by occupying their workplaces and declaring them as commonly held public assets.

Or alternately, the capitalists can move us towards a form of capitalism that is closer to total barbarism for the many and massive wealth for the very, very few.

[krispos42]

34. Capitalism never fails because socialism always bails it out n/t

[readmoreoften]

36. You must have a creative definition of socialism.

Mine is he workers who create the economy sharing political rule and the fruits of that economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. That be mature communist

think New Deal,and it don't look like we will get that.

[readmoreoften]

38. New Deal Keynesianism is simply over. You'd need a revolution to get it back.

And then you'd need a permanent class war to keep it. That level of working class organization isn't likely to stop at liberal Keynesianism.

[krispos42]

51. Bank bailouts, the federal mortgage corporation, the CCC,

and the WPA. For example.

The government fronting the money to create demand so the workers can get paid to create the economy, when capitalism and private enterprise can't or wont.

[white_wolf]

39. I'll think I'll jump in here and give my solution.

I am a socialist, but I know it won't come overnight so here is what needs to be done as the first steps down the road to socialism. First of we need to institute a massive public works program to repair our crumbing infrastructure and put people back to work. We also need to nationalize the following industries and operate them for the public good: The energy industry, the banking industry, and the healthcare industry. We need to pass a maximum wage law that states no one in a company can make more than 200X the lowest paid employee.

We need a living wage law that guarantees a decent living wage for every worker in this country. We also should mandate that all 50% of any corporation's board of directors be made up of representatives elected by the workers. We also need to put reinstate tariffs on all imports to protect our jobs.

[Shagbark Hickory]

42. I'd also like to see pay caps and some real estate reforms but you sure have my vote.

[white_wolf]

43. What would you recommend for real estate reform?

As for pay caps I mentioned a maximum wage law of 200X time more than the lowest paid employee though even that might be too high.

[Shagbark Hickory]

53. You don't want to know!

I'd worry a little about inflation with tying in the max salary to the lowest but I'm not against that concept by any means.

As for real estate, the least extreme reform I'd suggest is that the government should regulate the rate at which housing can appreciate.

Ideally, I'd like to see an end to flipping and buying houses as investment properties. Basically anything that drives the cost of housing up and drives people out of an area.

[hack89]

41. Why does it work just fine in Sweden and Norway? nt

[Cosmocat]

47. It isn't a "failure"

First, our standard of living is pretty dang high. It isn't like we are living in a massive depression.

Second, the economic system has not failed, the governmental system necessary to properly regulate it has been coopted.

If our upper income tax brackets and corporate taxes were properly aligned and reinforced to push capital back into the REAL economy, and the speculate markets where these people have a disproportionate amount of wealth partioned into were properly regulated, we would in good shape - with, again, government setting up a more efficient one payer health care system,

[hack89]

64. I agree with you. nt

[Taverner]

52. Sweden has a hybrid system

Capitalism where it helps, Socialism where it helps.

If an company is failing, they are taken over by the government, reorganized, the toxic executives sacked, and then sold when it becomes profitable. In addition to saving the company, this also brings much needed revenue into the government coffers.

[hack89]

59. Socialism has never been popular in Sweden

All of the major industries are in private hands and government ownership has always been a tiny part of the economy. On top of that, the government has an aggressive plan to privatize most state owned businesses. Sweden certainly has a large number of millionaires so it does appear the people certainly embrace capitalism.

[Taverner]

61. Who cares if it's popular? It works!

[hack89]

63. It is not the socialist element of Sweden

that is responsible for its success. They are a prosperous country because they understand how capitalism generates wealth. They just have higher taxes to fund the social safety net. I think they do a great job.

[Taverner]

65. Call me crazy, but the part of Capitalism that works, is its Socialism

It worked here, and it worked in Sweden. Tell me their safety net (which actually encourages employment) isn't good - and that is pure, unadulterated socialism.

You see, right now, when business aka capitalism has failed us, we could use some Socialism. Now you might not be a proponent of Socialism 24x7 (like Keynes) but when stuck in a rut, it's better than the alternative, which is, of course, death.

[hack89]

74. So Socialism does not involve the public ownership of the means of production?

That corporations, private property and individual wealth can be part of a socialist state? Sounds good to me.

Just remember, though, to distinguish what is generating that wealth from what is distributing it.

[Taverner]

84. It does - but that can mean many things

Employee-owned companies (like Alvarado St Bakery) are one form of Socialism

So was the USPS for a while

Socialism is such a dirty word in the US, and it's like saying "democracy"

[End Of The Road]

55. It's not capitalism that's failed, it's ETHICS

any form of government or economic system will fail when the powerful care for no one but themselves. Civilized society demands personal responsibility, fair play, and at least some regard for the greater good. I haven't seen much of that in this country lately.

[white_wolf]

56. That is the nature of capitalism.

The system itself encourages the worst aspects of human nature and encourages the worst of people to gain power.

[End Of The Road]

57. Plenty of examples of communism & socialism that failed

for the same lack of ethics at the top. (Although I'm a fan of many aspects of socialism).

[hack89]

66. So how did Sweden make it work for their people?

they are as capitalistic as a country can be yet they have a robust social net, excellent labor laws and a low crime rate. They seemed to have made capitalism work without all the negatives that concern you. Why can't we make America like Sweden?

[white_wolf]

68. Sweden and a lot of the other European countries have very strong social saftey nets, but the reason

for that isn't because of capitalism, but socialism. Those countries(as well as Europe in general) are much more open to socialism and have several socialist and even a few communist parties in power. Those are the parties that created the social-safety net. If we want what they have in Europe we need a strong socialist party that presents a clear alternative to capitalism to at least show the ruling class that for their own sake they need to heed the warning of FDR and "reform if you would preserve."

[TBF]

77. Yes - these were destroyed a few times in our history, and most recently

in the 50's with McCarthyism. The parties we have right now, particularly the CPUSA, have sold out. We need a party with the strength of KKE in Greece - http://inter.kke.gr/

[white_wolf]

86. CPUSA has sold out big time.

Their "road map to socialism" is a joke, and they won't even test it. Their premise lies on getting democrats elected and then forming a strong coalition of labor unions to force the democrats to institute socialism by proxy. The problem is 1. the democrats would never do that and 2. They've had two chances to try it. First when Clinton had a democratic congress and then when Obama did and they did not try it.

[TBF]

88. They didn't try it because they don't support it. Obama is more into

breaking unions than supporting them, as evidenced by what he's doing to the teachers.

[hack89]

78. There are no major industries in Sweden that are public owned

The vast majority of the economy is in private hands - that's not socialism. And the government is in the midst of an aggressive effort to privatize those remaining government owned companies. They understand that only capitalism will generate the wealth they need to prosper. The difference is that they tax the hell out of everyone to pay for the social safety net. The other difference is that they avoid debt and instead pay as they go.

Did you know that one in 200 Swedes is a millionaire? They seem to embrace capitalism.

http://www.thelocal.se/27394/20100622/

I think it is an excellent system - a good safety net yet the opportunity to personally prosper from my effort.

[white_wolf]

85. Norway has perhaps an even better safety-net than Sweden and they have a lot of government industry.

Secondly the fact remains that the reason those countries have the social-safety net they do is because the socialist parties are still strong enough to present an alternative to capitalism. Hell, that's why we got our safety-net. It wasn't out of the goodness of the FDR's heart, it was because he was trying to slow down the threat of a socialist revolution. If you want those reforms you need a strong socialist movement to scare the Oligarchs into reforming, because the won't do it unless they are scared. They aren't scared now and they are trying to dismantle what little safety-net we have.

[hack89]

87. The Socialist parties embraced capitalism in Sweden

so it is impossible to argue that capitalism is dead - socialism is not the only way forward. My only point.

[TBF]

89. That's for sure. Plus a million. nt

[Leontius]

58. I have to disagree with you . Capitalism is a great success it

is functioning just as Marx said, just as the capitalists want it to, larger and larger groups of capital are squeezing out or taking over smaller ones and forcing the small capitalist to disappear while at the same time crushing the worker and eliminating the middle class. The 'haves' have won the 'have-nots', who cares. Change will happen but by then who knows what will be left of this world.

[Trillo]

60. Money is addicting

Likely more addicting than heroin, and certainly more ubiquitous. With addiction, denial is expected.

[Trillo]

80. Capitalism, Communism, and Socialism

seem to be a triangulation which enables denial of money addiction.


(Alternate title: might as well finish this thought)

[daleo]

62. It was never meant to work for the majority

If by "work", one means provide a life of dignity and security for working people (i.e. non-capitalists).

But now it seems to not even work for the majority of the investing class.

[ozone_man]

67. We have private profits and socialized losses for the banks and WS.

We live in a flawed capitalist system. Doubling down, bailing out the zombie banks would only make it worse. And the military industrial complex comes first before social programs, Obama says so.

Greed is the driver for the capitalist system, and unregulated, it always ends up in these boom and bust cycles, and ultimately depressions.

Probably the best thing is to let it fail and create a new (heavily regulated) system, where banks and other companies are never too big to fail, re-instate Glass-Steagall, apply fees to trades on the stock exchanges to provide government revenue (damping the volatile high frequency trading environment), downsizing the MIC to just defending the U.S., provide tax incentives to eco-friendly businesses, green energy, ...

[Vidar]

69. K&R.

[Odin2005]

70. Capitalism is a giant ponzi scheme.

If you think infinite exponential growth is not only possible, but also a good thing, then you are either insane or an economist.

[TBF]

75. Exactly right. But people cling to their American "Dreams". nt

[Javaman]

76. Not really.

has capitalism failed? Not really. It's doing what it was designed to do.

What has failing? Our ability to properly regulate.

Our system of government has failed.

[blindpig]

79. The ruling class would never admit that.

In fact it is working very well for them, sure there will be winners and losers within that class but overall they come out smelling like a rose every time. Not so much for the rest of us. The talking heads and the two capitalist parties will not admit it, they know which side the bread is buttered on.

Only working class analysis can see this, it is a matter of perspective

[Initech]

90. It's called denial.

We're still in denial because Fux News and assholes like Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity are still calling the shots. Until we shut them off for good we'll never get past the denial phase.