Further riots in London as violence spreads across England

[nadinbrzezinski]

Rioting has spread across London on a third night of violence, with unrest flaring in other English cities.

An extra 1,700 police officers were deployed in London, where shops were looted and buildings were set alight.

Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham and Bristol also saw violence.

The prime minister has returned early from his holiday to discuss the unrest, which first flared on Saturday after a peaceful protest in Tottenham over the fatal shooting of a man by police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

[MADem]

1. More like organized looting at this stage. Lots of arson-for-amusement, too.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/08/MN9S1KKUOQ.DTL

[aquart]

10. People protect what is theirs.

Has something happened to make all these young people believe that none of this is theirs? What could it possibly be?

[MADem]

19. It's not just that anymore--it's organized looting. People who live

in the neighborhoods affected are angered and outraged--at the looting and property damage, from people who are newcomers to the area and/or don't even live there, but are driving in for the express purpose of looting specific stores, like electronics, chic clothing, and trainers and committing arson for the kick of it.

There are not just outraged youth protesting, these are criminals taking advantage of a bad situation, and then there are punks going along for the ride as well. Here is some perspective from the other POV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNmQBx2WyN0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmV29vyu1Cc

[aquart]

2. Did knowing the police took Murdoch bribes influence any of this, do you think?

[dipsydoodle]

3. Hardly likely

This is just mindless hooliganism spurred onto to different areas by tv coverage showing the inability of the police to cope effectively. The outcome of this will hopefully be to increase the size of the police force here particularly the Territorial Support Groups.

[aquart]

11. IOW, you have no idea.

[dipsydoodle]

16. Please provide a lucid explanation

of the connection between our Metropolitan Police and Bristol, Birmingham and Liverpool police forces. :sarcasm:

Its the Met associated with Murdoch and that's a few bad apples.

[Firebrand Gary]

4. I have not watched the news, but what's the reason? Austerity?

[dipsydoodle]

5. No that's just a convenient excuse

.

[aquart]

9. What, exactly, is "convenient" about it?

I really enjoy smarmy simplistic answers to complex problems and events.

[dipsydoodle]

13. Convenient because its an unassociated red herring

This is pure mindless hooliganism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. It's convenient because it makes it easier to make it about the present government...

and its fiscal austerity measures and ignores the fact that the conditions that led to this are systemic and endemic failures on the part of the police and social services going back decades under both Tory and Labour governments. See here for instance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/apr/22/lawrence.ukcrime

[Posteritatis]

14. A protest over the police shooting a suspect turned violent and snowballed. (nt)

[dipsydoodle]

17. What actually happened

was that during a peaceful protest a sixteen year old girl was pushed back by the police at the police station most probably she was giving them yap, yap, yap right in their faces. That "incident" was spread by twitter and BBM and progressively exaggerated until it read "she'd been coshed to death" whatever. Then the riot started in Tottenham.

But yes - the shooting was the initial event which led to the peaceful protest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. thrity years of thatcneism

the Guardian had a good editorial on this.

BBC has an outstanding blog

And one comment is was very apropos last night. When the riot happens over there, it is about the people. When it happens in the here and now they are hooligans

They had a spark, but what you are seeing is frustration and not having a stake exploding.

Saying tha tthis is an excuse... all riots have an origin to them and none riots for fun.

[MADem]

20. For the riots, you mean? Short explanation: police excesses.

The thing that sparked it was a crackdown on guns (which criminals do have in UK) and the police shot a lad who supposedly fired on them, only it turns out he didn't.

There's also been a lot of police bullying going on for awhile, sort of like the way the police were in USA during the sixties. The police were likely trying to do a NYC-Giuliani sort of cleanup/enforcement ahead of the Olympics which will be coming to London.

However, it's gone from youthful protest over grievances against the police, to let's get all the electronics, clothing, and high end retail items we can, while the getting is good. Organized criminals are taking advantage and they are targeting stores and setting fires to distract, they are even driving around to the stores in groups to grab as much as they can carry. It is a mess.

[dipsydoodle]

6. 1,700 police officers

might seem a high figure to some but they were not necessarily ones trained to deal with such situations. There are three levels within the police forces here. If the 1700 had been from the highest, the territorial support groups which are those trained to cope with riots, it may have made a greater difference.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. TSG doesn't have 1700 officers

720, apparently, which means they had to make up the numbers with non-specialist officers who lack training for dealing with these situations...which is not really going to make things better, since the last thing you want is for the police to potentially exacerbate the situation through panic.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Is that the Met's figure ?

or UK total ? I'm asking because I don't know. I agree about the issue of non-specialist officers which was mentioned early hours of this morning by the Beeb and Sky. There are also believed to be issues of the police being overly politically correct.

Also :

0841:

"I'm not going to give you an answer this morning" about using army/water cannon/curfew, Theresa May tells Today presenter John Humphrys. Says she is "listening to the police about what they need" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. That's just the Met (per Wikipedia, so it may not be current)

and calling in specialist officers from police forces in other parts of the country may not prove to be an optimal solution either if this goes on (Birmingham, Bristol, Merseyside...more isolated and less widespread than in London but still a concern I'd think). Per the Guardian Theresa May has ruled out the use of water cannon, and the deputy mayor of London has said he doesn't want to see the army on the streets, so...