The USA turned its back on my people

[reggie the dog]

how many of you agree with that idea?

I come from the working class and i am 32. i was born into a usa in which my parents could live as such.

one salary from a job such as mechanic, plumber, carpenter, factory worker, municipal worker etc meant good benefits and a salary high enough to

buy a home
buy a new american car every 5 years or so so that the 2 car fleet never had a car more than 10 yrs old
pay for college for 3 or 4 kids
have a motorcycle or fishing boat
have money to enjoy 2 or 3 weeks of vacation


ON ONE GOD DAMNED SALARY!

that america is gone. my people, the working class, have been sold out. if you cant get a fancy education you are basically fucked as less and less union jobs are left each month. i really and truly hate the usa for that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZzM4s0Hgs


and i let you know that i am born in the usa and lived there the first 24 years of my life.

[MineralMan]

1. So, how are things in France?

For your people, I mean. You've lived there for 8 years it sounds like.

[reggie the dog]

3. aside from having a better social system in place

the working middle class is being priced and delocalized out of existence just as it is in the usa

[lapislzi]

2. You're dreaming

For one thing, that America never existed. A motorcycle? A fishing boat? I don't recall any "working families" of yore having many of those things. Those are, and always were, luxury goods. Although my family was below middle class, and sometimes poor, our neighbors were the working class of which you speak. They drove clunkers into the ground. They had second jobs. They felt lucky to be able to go the the Jersey shore for a week. Two weeks? Hardly. Three weeks? Unheard of.

As for "fancy education," (I can see from your spelling and grammar you didn't receive one) today's "fancily educated" college grads can't find work either. A degree is no guarantee of a job.

Sorry you're so bitter.

[reggie the dog]

4. i have a masters degree and come from a family like i described

my father was a mechanic, my mom a stay at home mom. i forgot to say that we are white too. dad always had a union job, as did his buddies and i saw how they lived. the people who bought their houses in mid 70s or sooner were often one salary families, this was in the suburbs of chicago

[lapislzi]

13. OK, we have similar backgrounds

I just don't remember my working-class neighbors being especially well-off. We weren't starving, but we didn't have many luxuries.

My family was a little different, due to its extreme dysfunction. My father couldn't hold a job, and we spent time on public assistance. Being a member of the (steadily) working class would have been a step up.

So, you have a Master's Degree. Is your lack of capitalization a political statement? Just wondering.

[reggie the dog]

15. sort of

i lack caps and punctuation to symbolize that i dont like lots of rules, i know it is childish but it is one of my simple pleasures in life

[lapislzi]

16. Gotcha. But consider this:

There's an awful lot we can't control as individuals. I can do my best to control other people's perception of me. I like to present myself as educated (also hold Master's Degree) and literate. It should signal to others that I'm interested in elevating the level of discourse.

That's one of my simple pleasures in life.

Peace to you.

[mopinko]

66. +1

[Brickbat]

6. Oh, I remember that America.

You could do a lot with many union jobs, as long as you were smart about it.

[anneboleyn]

54. Yes, I remember it too. My husband's family lived that life. Father worked for a science lab at the

university).They lived well off of one salary. Mom stayed at home comfortably and was able to buy most of the things she wanted (bric-a-brac) for the house, which was a nice three bedroom in a nice neighborhood. They had two decent cars, both kids were put through college (granted, state schools, not Ivy Leagues, but still).

My ex-husband's family also lived off the income of one educator (the father) and were able to buy a house, drive two decent cars, and send the boys to college -- both of the familes did this without incurring additional debt.

It's all part of the disintergrating middle class.

[indurancevile]

14. i remember it. i grew up in a neighborhood where everyone worked for the same

company. my mother was the only mother in our neighborhood who worked -- the rest were stay at home moms. most of the men worked on the shop floor, a couple were supervisors. middle-class homes, decent cars, campers.

and your personal attack on the poster is really uncalled for.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. No he's NOT dreaming! My dad was a Union steel worker.

He worked and my mom was a stay-at-home mom of 5 kids! We had a very nice home. Plenty of food to eat. Two cars at all times...one for dad to drive to work and one for mom to have at home. We had a nice boat for weekend fun. My dad had a bass boat for fishing only. We ALWAYS, every year, took a 2 week vacation with the entire family in tow to visit family in the south. We always had clothes. We never went without anything.

THAT really was the American Dream and it DOES NOT exist anymore. It DID exist...it's now GONE.

When I married in 1973 we bought a house for $20,000! You couldn't touch a house for that now. You would be lucky to build a room for $20,000. Our first, brand spankin' new Volkswagen Karmann Ghia floor model with 100 miles on it... cost us $3,000 in 1974!!! This was our car...same color too! SWEEEEET CAR! 3,000 freakin' dollars. Try to buy a brand new car for that today.

[reggie the dog]

19. "THAT really was the American Dream and it DOES NOT exist anymore. It DID exist...it's now GONE."

sometimes i feel like the character night rider from mad max.... its all gone... its all gone... enough to drive a man crazy, it is fucked up when you have the same job as your dad, like my brother does, yet can not provide anywhere near the same lifestyle, it can really mess with your identity as a man when you feel that you dont even live up to what your dad could do for you in regards to your own kids

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. I feel for you. I honestly do! I also FEAR for my son who is just

heading off to college in 8 days. I fear he won't be able to find a job and make a living 4 years from now. I KNOW he won't have the American Dream. That's just not an option anymore and it REALLY pisses me off. I can only imagine what he'll be faced with in 4 years when he's finished with school. :( It's not going to be good. He was robbed of the life I had. I could walk the streets freely and not worry about child molesters or being kidnapped. We could leave our doors unlocked at night. We could leave our windows open at night. We could play outside when it got dark. He never had that.

I have decided that siblings/families now need to pool their resources and live together! You need to share all expenses and then maybe you can live reasonably well. With these economic times, our door will ALWAYS be open to our son...no matter what. Though he will have to leave the country because we're leaving in 4 years when he's finished with college. We can't afford to retire here! We'll be living on a FRACTION of what it costs us to live here. Our rent will be around what we pay for electricity ONLY here. Something is VERY, VERY wrong in this country. It has definitely gone to shit.

[Romulox]

21. LOL! I wonder if there is any connection between the disappearance of the American Dream

and that Karman Ghia? :shrug:

[reggie the dog]

24. trade with germany didnt do us in

they had a similar standard of living and bought our products too, trade with them was good for the usa.

[Romulox]

28. Um, if you say so. I guess it's "free trade" is good until YOUR community is affected?

Because Detroit has been hurting since the 1960s, long before your epiphany.

[reggie the dog]

34. is it bad to trade with a country in which wokers have a similar

standard of living? germany also bought many of our cars. it is not at all like free trade with china or mexico.

[Romulox]

41. It's bad to buy a bunch of imported stuff then cry "where are the jobs?"

The jobs are obviously at the place where the imported stuff YOU have bought is assembled. It's just logic.

[reggie the dog]

45. not really

if china is the example what you say is true because the dont buy many of our goods, germany is different, europeans have bought many american goods for a long time and germans have a similar if not slightly higher standard of living than americans.

[Romulox]

46. Well, then slap your "Solidarity!" bumper sticker on your Prius, and keep telling Detroiters how

"free trade" (as it exists in reggie's description, rather than as it exists in the real world) is helping them. :shrug:

[reggie the dog]

70. what i describe is not free trade at all

if the country the good is coming from does not buy us made goods then you pop a tariff on their goods. we had trade in the 50s, just not free trade.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Well, I don't know, but the LEMON Jeep we bought when we traded in the Karmann Ghia

may have. A Jeep we couldn't EVER drive in rain or water. It was a piece of shit car. So, maybe THAT had something to do with the downfall of the American Dream? People couldn't afford to constantly repair American made cars.

on edit:

The Jeep was also a BRAND NEW CAR...the year they came out with the hard top along with the soft top. The car was ALWAYS in the repair shop.

[reggie the dog]

36. around what time did the owners stop investing in the factories?

they knew at some point that they would delocalize, did they have poor products due to lack of investment in the facilities?

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. That is very possible and I wouldn't doubt one bit that the "made in China" parts

had something to do with it. :( I think that was about the time the CEOs started getting the multi-million $$$$$$$ paychecks also.

From Michael Moore's "Roger and Me":

<snip>

These are a few of the results of General Motors laying off 40,000 people in Flint in the past nine years. It is expected that GM will eliminate another 10,000 Flint jobs in the next few years. 50% of Flint's GM workforce will have been abolished by 1989, an event of unprecedented proportion in American history.

Yet, since 1983, car sales have steadily risen and GM has posted record profits of nearly $19 billion. So why lay off all of these people? Moore points out that he and his friends were raised on the American Dream which promised that if you worked hard and the company prospered, you would too. Now, it seems, GM has changed the rules: you work hard, the company prospers--and you lose your job.

The film shows that GM has used these profits not to create jobs, but to buy data processing companies (EDS) and weapons manufacturers (Hughes Aircraft), automate their current assembly lines, and build new plants in Mexico and Asia. In addition, GM has bought a controlling interest in Isuzu, entered into a joint operating agreeement with Toyota, and has become the second largest mortgage holder in the United States. Flint, Michigan, it seems, is no longer part of the GM plan. <snip>

http://dogeatdog.michaelmoore.com/synopsis.html

[Romulox]

39. And? You don't think a foreigner can do YOUR job cheaper and better?

Of course they can.

[reggie the dog]

43. not a german or a canadian

nor a frenchman, nor a brit, nor a swede etc. trade with countries that produce cheaper goods than you do is stupid as it hurts the country that has a high standard of living, trading with countries that enjoy the same standard of living is good for technological innovation and peaceful international relations and does not harm the economies of the countries involved.

[Romulox]

44. German and Canadian standards of living rest on MASSIVE trade surpluses with the United States

Who does the United States have MASSIVE trade surpluses with? Not Canada. Not France. Not Germany. Not any of them.

[reggie the dog]

71. the usa used to have trade suprlusses with

canada, france and germany, then for some reason we cut way back on our manufacturing. think about it, can you name a canadian car company? we used to sell a shitload of cloting, shoes and electrical/electronic products to france and germany too, then our companies decided that they could make more money faster by having factories overseas. the companies still sell the goods to europe, they are just no longer made in the usa

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. AND?

If you want people to buy American Made cars, make cars that can be driven in the rain or a water puddle, for Christ sake. A JEEP that can't be driven in water is just fucking ridiculous. That car was in the shop more than it was on the road with us and it was brand fucking new. I would be more than happy to "buy American Cars" if they made them well and fuel efficient. What did they give us? The fucking HUMMER!

We were up North the other day shaking our heads at the $4.05 a gallon gas prices at the gas stations. We're sitting at a stop light discussing the gas prices and what am I surrounded by? SUVs and HUGE pick-up trucks....ALL American made, BTW. I'm not paying $100 to fill up my car. Sorry. And I'm sure as hell not buying a car that needs to constantly be repaired. If YOU want to pay my car repair bills, I'll gladly buy an American made car and send you the repair bills. Just let me know if you're willing to pay them.

[Romulox]

51. Everything you've posted applies to YOU, too. The same YOU who was bemoaning the loss of his

standard of living, just upthread.

Truly, there are none so blind...

[reggie the dog]

73. in the usa

i still drive american, in france i drive french although they are not the best cars but out of principle

[reggie the dog]

72. this is where competition should have pushed the big 3 to make

smaller cars, but the oil industry seemed to have an influence.

[DonCoquixote]

50. I hear your anger

But the brass at GM and Ford kept putting CRAP cars, and I mean Ford Pinto bad...Even though people wanted smaller cars that cost less to fill up, Detroit was deaf, the only time detroit started making better cars oddly enough, is now, after Obama had the Government take over GM, instead of letting the GOP chop it up and sell it to China. Did the UAW yell at detroit brass to make better cars during all this time?

[Romulox]

52. Right, but what goes around also comes around.

Poster was complaining about the loss of the American Dream, upthread. Why does he, you, or anyone else believe that this process will (or has) stopped with cars? :wtf:

[reggie the dog]

74. i dont

what happened with cars has happened with steel, textiles ect. and is now happening to tech jobs

[Horse with no Name]

83. Part of that exists still in certain corners of the country

You can pick up a nice house for $25k around where I live.

BUT...there are NO jobs, NO entertainment, NO choices in shopping, NO infrastructure and the political climate sucks.

However, if you are retiring and on a very small budget...it would be ideal.

[dissidentboomer]

55. He's not dreaming! I'm 53, small town, south Texas and I remember what he describes.

Many other people do, too. Come fuckin' on. Jesus H. Christ. What the fuck is wrong with people? I attended a private college (2000 students and a faculty with 50% percent Ph.Ds) and it was absolutely FULL of the children of blue collar labor and the middle and upper middle class. Fuckin' FULL of them and it cost MUCH more than any state university. The blue collar folks I knew owned their homes and sent their kids through college with LITTLE TO NO PROBLEM. I'm sorry, bud, you're the one dreaming or hoping that no one remembers.

[dissidentboomer]

56. He's not dreaming! I'm 53, small town, south Texas and I remember what he describes.

Many other people do, too. Come fuckin' on. Jesus H. Christ. What the fuck is wrong with people? I attended a private college (2000 students and a faculty with 50% percent Ph.Ds) and it was absolutely FULL of the children of blue collar labor and the middle and upper middle class. Fuckin' FULL of them and it cost MUCH more than any state university. The blue collar folks I knew owned their homes and sent their kids through college with LITTLE TO NO PROBLEM. I'm sorry, bud, you're the one dreaming or hoping that no one remembers.

[dissidentboomer]

58. WHAT the FUCK do YOU think people are angry about? Jeeeezus....

[yogini]

62. Hey, that's how it was!

You may not remember, but that's how it was. Our parent's dream was for us to have a better life than them. That was their parent's wish too. My parent's lived that dream, without a college education.

So don't demean this writer by saying sorry your so bitter.

If you're not pissed off you should be

[JVS]

64. You can get a nice motorcycle or fishing boat for $10K plus or minus a couple grand.

While that is currently hard for a single income family to swing, it's close enough to being within grasp to call possible, especially when one considers that it's a product that can last 10 years or more. Growing up I knew guys who worked at newspapers on the printing line who had boats.

[Joe Fields]

67. the op is not dreaming. I've witnessed it first hand.

My father did all of those things on a middle income salary, and did it while raising seven children. My mother stayed at home and raised us kids. I saw it in the neighborhoods I grew up around. One income families with nice little homes in suburbia, boats on trailers parked on the side of many people's homes, and yes, I knew of several families that had cabins down by the lake. It WAS a reality. Many wage earners got 2 week vacations and could send their kids to college. THAT was the America I grew up in.

Now, call me a liar.

On edit, I am replying to post number 2.

[blueamy66]

69. changing my subject line....guess I do agree....

We were that family. My childhood was idyllic. We always had a pool in the backyard, we had a boat at one time, my brother had a motorcycle.....we always went on vacation - most likely cause my Dad worked for the airlines. We never had cool cars, but they were usually bought new and paid for monthly.

We were the quintessential middle class family. We didn't get everything that every child wanted, but now that I look back at my upbringing, we never wanted for the necessities.

My parents helped out at the school to help with my Catholic school tuition...not alot of work, but still.....I worked hard and earned a scholarship to AZ State....which I lost, cause I goofed around. But I did get my degree, thanks to the CWA and AT&T.

My Dad got 6 weeks of vacation a year and 2 1/2 times his salary when he worked on a holiday. Yeah, my Mom worked, but she enjoyed it. Both worked for companies that offered pensions. Hell, my Dad made more money as a retiree than as a worker bee....between SS, his pension and the little pension of my Mom, who predeceased him.

I have no pension...only a 401k that is falling apart. My guy can't even afford to put any $ into his 401k....no pension for him either.

America is NO LONGER what it used to be. It has turned its back on us.

[Brickbat]

5. I remember that America. Union jobs asked that you show up and put in your 8 hours every workday,

and in return you got enough money to do pretty much what you list, two weeks at the lake in the summer, kids off to state school or a private school if you had a little luck here and there, or if a second income came along. It was a bargained agreement and it worked.

[reggie the dog]

7. i would have been happy to put in 40 a week in such a system

plus time and half overtime, why not put in 5 10s for a couple of weeks and get 5 extra hours salary bonus, hmmm new chrome for the bike.... i saw my father live like this and dreamed of doing the same, but i cant, because my leaders sold me out.

[NNN0LHI]

8. I had probably one of the best union jobs out there and that is not true

I could have never paid for college for 3 or 4 kids.

Never could have afforded a motorcycle or fishing boat either. I wanted both and got neither.

Never had enough money to enjoy 2 or 3 weeks of vacation. Had the vacation but no money to go anywhere. Just bills to pay.

Rented until I was in my 30's.

We were always a one car family until very recently. And when one breaks bad enough we are going to be back to being a one-car family.

I don't recall one paycheck ever being enough for all that.

Don

[reggie the dog]

10. regional difference?

if you dont mind me asking what part of the country were you in, how old are you? my father is 62 in in the chicago area, bought his home in 75

[NNN0LHI]

18. Don't think so

This was the Chicago suburbs and I am 56.

Worked my way up to top union scale in skilled trades at an auto plant. 12 hours a day and 7 days a week most of the time too.

And it was never enough to live like you describe for us on that one paycheck. And most guys I knew were in about the same financial shape as me.

Only guys who I knew who lived like you describe either had a wife out working making about the same money as we were or they inherited a bunch of money. Or both?

Don

[reggie the dog]

22. what field?

my old man was a diesel mechanic, again he bought his house in 75 and like i said above the guys who bought their homes from the mid 70s back were usually one income families but people who bought in the late 70s early 80s were usually two income families,

[NNN0LHI]

29. I am a journeyman Machine Repairman

I began working there in 1973 so you father had a bit of a head start on me.

One big advantage we had back then that you didn't mention was a 30 and out retirement with a real pension and lifetime insurance.

I hired in while still in high school so I had my 30 years in and became eligible for full retirement when I was 48. And I did take it.

Now that kind of benefit is unheard of.

Don

[reggie the dog]

31. my dad got in later than you

he changed jobs in the late 70s he still hasnt retired. he had a buddy who retired at 51 from scott forge

[Romulox]

23. Plenty of guys who worked at Wayne Assembly had boats, bikes, growing up...

:shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

32. Guys had them where I worked too

They just had another source of income as far as I could tell. A wife working, wealthy parents or money left to them. Something.

Don

[dissidentboomer]

60. Not sure where you lived or what you did with your money but the US they describe, above, certainly

DID exist. In Texas. During the 1970s.

[Exultant Democracy]

9. Welcome to african-america's america. The irony is that if whites in America has been less racist

they wouldn't have been so easily fooled into fucking themselves.

[reggie the dog]

12. tell me about it

racist union members just blow my mind

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. That's the America I grew up in. As a matter of fact...

the place I grew up also wore the white hats and didn't torture people as a matter of policy.
My father never made more than 30K/year as a salesman, Mom didn't work, my brothers, sister and I all had the opportunity to go to college, and in their later years they bought a second home on the NJ waterfront for 16K, traveled to Europe, South America, etc etc.

[Coyote_Bandit]

20. I grew up

in a rural area on a family farm. Mom worked part-time. Both my maternal and paternal grandparents made their living working the land.

I represent the first generation to earn my livlihood working for someone else. Frankly, I'd be better off living in a small off the grid home on a small acreage with a large garden, a well and a chicken coop.

[reggie the dog]

25. how has the change affected farming?

what has happend to the family farming class?

[Coyote_Bandit]

57. Family farms?

You're kidding right?

If you have $300,000 or so - or can borrow it - you might be able to buy 20 acres with a small old farmhouse and a single poultry house that might hold about 12,000 chickens. With that investment you might gross $65,000 a year. You are going to have significant electric expense. You'll need your own dependable water well and industrial generator. And you are going to work 7 days a week for about 18 months at a time - and most of those work days are going to be at least 10 hour work days. You will always be concerned about losing your production and distribution contract. Farming is a high risk industry so if you want health insurance you need a spouse who works and can secure those benefits for you.

You want to produce crops or beef or dairy? Then you are going to need far more land, and equipment and money.

Much of your success will be controlled by factors beyond your control. That includes markets and government policies as well as the weather.

Think you might inherit a farm from Mom and Dad or good old Grandpa? The farm is likely the largest part of their estate. If there are no other heirs the only issue you have to deal with is federal and state estate taxes. You may find that the value of land, building, equipment and livestock of a farming operation large enough to support you and your family is also large enough to be subject to those estate taxes. You better hope there is some cash around somewhere to pay those taxes otherwise you are going to have to either get a mortgage or liquidate something. If you are not the only heir then you may need to get the capital to buy out the other heirs.


The family farms that have not already disappeared will soon. They can't survive in today's economy.

[reggie the dog]

75. what has that done to morale of people out in the countryside?

do youth there feel they have no future? all i know about this i have learned from willie nelson, neil young, and john mellencamp so i would be really interested to hear from you

[bvar22]

26. Missing from your list:

*Provide Quality Health Care for the Whole Family

*Retire in relative comfort & dignity

*Enjoy Job Security with good benefits

*Get Promoted within the Company, and possibly advance to Management if so desired




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[reggie the dog]

27. thank you

[bvar22]

40. That was The Norm, not the exception for the 50s - the late 70s.

In the late 60s,
Anybody could attend the State University and graduate DEBT FREE if willing to work a part time job.

My father was a non-college educated WW2 veteran Blue Collar worker in the Oil Fields of the Gulf Coast.
We lived in a neighborhood of families very much like ours.

There were racial & gender Equality of Opportunity problems,
but with the Civil Rights Act and the heroism of those in The Movement,
we felt like we were making progress.
We WERE moving in the right direction.
THAT is the basis of HOPE,
not a Campaign Promise,
but actually SEEING movement in the right direction.


---bvar22
A Mainstream Center Pro-Working Class FDR/LBJ DEMOCRAT




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[Shagbark Hickory]

35. Is this you talking or is this yet another improperly sourced work from you tube?

[reggie the dog]

37. it is a punk rock video

[Shagbark Hickory]

38. So to clarify, this is your narrative as of age -- whatever you are now -- but you moved from the US

to France at age 24 and you have lived in france ever since?

Did I get that right? I do remember chatting with you about france now that I think about it.

[reggie the dog]

42. yes, but i have family in the usa and i see how they live

and the same thing is happening to the working and middle class here in france too, our plus side is our social welfare system.

[Shagbark Hickory]

48. Yes well we're somewhere inbetween where you live and haiti. But you get what you pay for. nm

[Romulox]

53. "I can't make my Nissan payment. WHAT HAPPENED TO AMERICA????"

"Where are the joooooobs?????" :rofl:

[reggie the dog]

76. why isnt japan buying chevy's?

and also if there is a trade imbalance where is the tariff on the japanese made car?


if the country selling us the car was aslo buying lots of us made goods what you describe would not be a problem. i am not anti trade, i am anti free trade

[TwilightGardener]

59. Women entered the workforce, two salaries became first the norm, and

then a necessity as housing and medical care became expensive, and then wages stagnated, or even fell. And then unemployment, offshoring, union protections weakened, etc. etc. I guess the answer would be THREE jobs per family to be middle class now, but there aren't enough jobs to go around.

[pitohui]

61. a few comments

in the 60s a working class person could buy a home and have a car for himself and his wife on one salary, and a two week vacation each year was standard -- sure, my dad did it and so did most dads around -- the key point being, most dads stuck around in those days instead of running off as soon as the new wore off

HOWEVER there was no money to pay for college (we had grants back in the days before reagan), and there was sure as shit no motorcycle or fishing boat on a one person working man's salaray, that's just silly

if you had children, in my parents' case multiple children, you accepted that there were no "toys" like motorcycles, fishing boats etc. on one man's salary

people used to go to college on the g.i. bill, scholarships, and grants, and when reagan changed things so that college was something that people had to pay for, it meant a drastic and immediate hit to people's ability to raise kids on one income, made it impossible really unless the single breadwinner was a CEO

another thing that changed was men's willingness to stick around, divorce/child support/having to provide for TWO houses is incredibly destructive to economic wealth, again, if you're not earning six figures, there's no way it can done if each parent is living in a separate home -- both parents will now have to work because 1 salary is just not enough for 2 households

we had a one/two hit of greedy republicans looting the public till, so that people now go into terrible debt to educate themselves, which i blame squarely on the reagan/bush frauds...but the second punch came from the "me me me" mentality to which both sides of the aisle must take some responsibility, the idea that the minute you're unhappy you should leave your wife and kids and then wonder why the $$$ isn't enough to get those kids properly grown and educated when you're trying to have two households on an income barely enough for one household

[reggie the dog]

77. most times it is the woman who leaves

most divorces are asked for my women these days, 3 out of 4 and not for cheating or beating but for irreconcilable differences, i think that if it is the dad or the mom skipping out it is bad for the kids.

about boats and motorcycles what region where you in and how many kids in the family? my dad had 3 kids and his harley and all its chrome came out of his overtime. lots of people his age and older had bikes or boats, he is 61

[cali]

63. You're 32. So you were born in 1979. I believe that by the 1980s

it took two wage earners doing work such as you describe in your OP to live the kind of lifestyle you refer to.

[spooky3]

65. I agree. Also, I'm older than the OP and I remember that a lot of working families

also had a mother who worked in the factory, as a secretary or doing other office work, as a cashier, etc., at least part time and in many cases full time, in addition to a union shop father. Very few families in which the father worked a union job and the mother was at home had most of the luxuries described in the OP, but they did indeed have some of them. This was in a midwestern city with a much lower cost of living than Chicago.

But the OP's point, even stated less dramatically, is still well taken and borne out by data. Middle and working class families' pay has stagnated, or worse, over the past 40 years. Today, a factory worker and an office worker would both have to put in 40 hours; even with that and no layoffs, they would have only a small house in a working class neighborhood, and maybe a boat or one new car and one clunker, and their kids would have to get at least partial loans, grants or other aid at a state school (or work too).

[reggie the dog]

80. we had a high cost of living in chicago to be sure

but our union salaries were also nice and high. even people in their mid 50s didnt have what my dad had due to the house prices shooting up so guys buying their homes even 4 years later needed 2 salaries to do so.

[reggie the dog]

78. yep, i was lucky that my parents bought their home in the mid

70s before the prices shot up, so he could pay the mortgage on one salary.

[CanonRay]

68. Even if you can get a "fancy education" you are probably fucked

How many MS and PHDs are on DU and out of work, or working at a 7-11?

[reggie the dog]

82. i am one of them

my master's makes me overqualified for many jobs.

[Evasporque]

79. that only existed for a brief time following WWII....

It is the 50's SitCom America we all think was America...

It wasn't....really.

[reggie the dog]

81. my father had this, he was born in 1950

bought his home in 75, my mother only went back to work part time after all the kids were in high school or college

[Little Star]

84. I darned well agree! Kick, was to late for the Rec.

[hfojvt]

85. I think that is a little bit optimistic

My parents had 5 kids, but dad also had a good job. Somewhere in the late 1970s, he got promoted to GM-13. So he was management, not an ordinary working stiff in the private sector.

Yes, they bought a home, but they finished the basement by themselves, putting in the ceiling and the floor tiles and the interior walls.

During my years of childhood, we had three cars. First we had a beat up old station wagon for a number of years. Then in 1976 or so, they did buy a brand new 1974 station wagon - it was new, but last year's model. That car mostly sat in the garage while the old one was still used. The new car was only used for vacations. Perhaps 1979 or so, they bought a used Gremlin and got rid of the old station wagon. The Gremlin was our main car until 1985 when dad offered to give it to me as I started my first job.

After that I sorta lose track. I cannot remember what or when the Gremlin was replaced. I wasn't at home any more.

There was no motorcycle or boat, although there were a couple of pop-up campers. Much of the vacations were just driving to mom's mom clear over in New York. We camped and stayed with relatives so vacations were fairly cheap.

As for college, dad was determined to pay for all our college. My older sister went one year and dropped out. Then I went for five years, my sister for four, my brother for one and dropped out, took a year off, and went to a different school. As I remember it though, people with full-ride daddy scholarships were kinda rare. My brother-in-laws got student loans. Other people got ROTC scholarships and did work-study. One roommate had money from five years in the army.

My parents did what they did, because they lived cheaply. There were no day care expenses either. We wore hand-me-downs and rode used bikes, and mom made mittens and hats and scarves herself and canned vegetables from the garden. They used their bicycles to goto work and to the store and to the library, and that was on an upper-middle class income.