Philadelphia mayor talks tough to black teenagers after ‘flash mobs’

[joeglow3]

Nice to see our leaders step up to stop this crap.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/8/mayor-talks-tough-to-black-teens-after-flash-mobs/

[FLAprogressive]

1. Stupid hoodlum trash assaulting people on the street. You'd think they'd have something better to do

than cause mayhem.

[luvspeas]

2. The unemployment rate for Black youth in the US is now almost 50 percent...

There are no jobs and there are no programs to help them. They really don't have anything better to do.

[joeglow3]

6. Really?

Of all the things that can be done for free, the best is to use your cell with a data plan and plan to beat the shit out of innocent people? You REALLY believe that?

[FLAprogressive]

7. +1

[luvspeas]

13. I don't think these kids see much future for themselves....

You can't even argue that a minimum wage job is a way out anymore. They not only don't see out, they have no reason to WANT out. Now, it's your turn to make more wild speculation about their animalism and lack of humanity. I say society has left them behind.

[DFab420]

16. ...Yes it's all societies fault that these kids have decided it's ok to beat people up. How about

some personal responsibility?

[joeglow3]

72. Did this crap happen during the depression?

I honestly don't know, but I am guessing you did not have mobs simply beating the crap out of people and, I assure you, those people were in much more dire circumstances.

[RobinA]

67. The 11-year-old

they arrested in one of these mobs isn't even old enough to work.

[Patiod]

23. +10

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. How does that excuse violence?

Maybe if they (as Mayor Nutter said) dressed and acted appropriately, they could find decent work.

[luvspeas]

15. I knew that was coming...

maybe they are unemployed because they are unemployable.....well whose fault is THAT?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

40. Part of the blame goes to them.

Like Nutter said, if you walk into an office with your pants around your ankles, etc., nobody will hire you.

[Supersedeas]

63. an answer to unemployment--violent flash mobs

another legal truth expands in scope -- the employed have to pay for our peace to stay unharmed by the unemployed

[DFab420]

14. Your justification for mob violence is they are bored? I was bored as an unemployed teen and I just

dicked around. Maybe som graffiti but violence? This is not a failure of "the system" this is a failure of people.

[luvspeas]

17. I never used the word BORED...You did...

and it just goes to show your attitude about these youth. It has nothing to do with bored. Sorry if you were bored once upon a time.

[DFab420]

19. Quoting you. "They really don't have anything better to do"

That implies boredom or listlessness.

Just because you didn't say the word doesn't mean your weren't implying it. The miracles of the english language.

[luvspeas]

22. I accept your apology for admitting that I never used the word bored...you must be bored today.

[DFab420]

26. nice to see your obtuseness unfaltering.. must make your reality enjoyable.

[Pithlet]

4. Then we should give them something better to do.

That's the problem.

[FLAprogressive]

8. That is still no excuse for being criminal thugs.

[Pithlet]

12. It's not an excuse

But when society doesn't do anything about it, then society can't complain about the results. If you don't do anything about a problem, don't complain about the results. We have a shit economy. Stuff like this happens.

[ej510]

3. Black folks are the last ones hired and the first ones fired.

[EFerrari]

5. And the Moonie Times loved printing this story

I'm surprised they didn't darken the skin of the white kids in the photograph.

[indurancevile]

18. guy on this forum (implies he's retired police in the area) says:

Originally Posted by sarge912 View Post

Mob rule goes back to the time of the Roman Empire and probably before. What these mobs have that is new is social networking and instant communications. Communications and intelligence are key components in any combat action. I strongly suspect that many of these mobs are starting to be manipulated for the amusement of a few agent provocateurs, much like what happened in the late '60s and early '70s. Kent State comes immediately to mind. The latest flash mob attack in Philly http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-2...mob-trash-cans is another example of the media not telling the entire story. Like I said before, I really believe that the Feds will step in at some point and invoke RICO statutes.

AG's come and go. The boots on the ground are huddling as we 'speak' looking for ways to rein this problem in. Although I am retired I still hear things. This may be just a flash in the pan but if it keeps growing, I stand by my opinion.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=3066730

[WinkyDink]

54. The Mayor had a televised news conference. The W.Times is Moonie, but not the culprit.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

9. Mayor Nutter sounds like a reasonable man.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DFab420]

20. Victim blaming??? I think the victim is the guy in the hospital with the fractured skull..,.

[Pithlet]

21. Let's just keep on doing things your way then.

They're thugs! They're animals! Lock them all up in jail! Gee, that's been working out real great, hasn't it? Is it doing any good?

[DFab420]

24. I didn't say any of that. Nor did I imply that they are animals or thugs. Simply saying that

Just saying that using the excuse that the system has failed to excuse violence isn't helping.

They are plenty of ways to act out if you don't have any direction. Roving the streets and beating the public isn't exactly one that speaks highly of ones OWN character.

[Pithlet]

25. Why isn't it helping. Or the proper question is why wouldn't it help?

What evidence do you have that a more progressive government that takes care of its citizens wouldn't help?

[DFab420]

30. Because making excuses for violence doesn't help any cause?

Maybe thats why it doesn't help.

Also a progressive government probably would help, but at a certain point you can't change people, they have to do that for themselves....

We could:

Make state jobs that they could work at.. But that might only take a few in

How about state schools, where they could be sent?? Unless of course they didn't want to be sent ....

Maybe after school programs like sports?! I mean the only reason these kids are BEATING PEOPLE UP IN THE STREETS is because they don't have enough activities right??

At a certain point it comes to personal responsibility. No matter where you stand "in the system", you should at least have the moral fiber to realize mobbing in the streets to beat up people isn't exactly the best way to spend your time.....

[Pithlet]

35. See my post 31. I'm not making excuses.

My point is that I think looking at is as a moral character issue is the problem. Yes, they have to do it for themselves. But it would be a hell of a lot easier under better circumstances. It won't do any good to tell them to get the bootstraps if they aren't there to begin with.

[woolldog]

59. I agree with you.

Even if it IS a moral character problem, you can't ignore cause and effect....unless you believe that bad kids are springing out of nowhere.

[Pithlet]

37. And the solution sure as hell isn't these stupid panic pieces

that our right wing media love to churn out. The article in the OP is a prime example. Instead of getting everyone on the same page working for change, it just creates a fearful public. And that's exactly what the right wants.

[DFab420]

41. The worst one I've seen was a few days ago about some countyfair

The article was quoted as "a dozen to several hundred black youths"

I was dumbfounded.

I'm not saying that there isn't definitely a portion of TERRA!! in these articles, but my responses about excuse making was directed more at luvspeas then our discussion.

There is more we can do as a country, but part of that is avoiding the pitfalls of shifting blame from BOTH the system as well as the individual..

[luvspeas]

46. I never made any excuses...

I wish YOU would quit saying I said things I did not.

[luvspeas]

42. WOW! What if...

There were opportunities for jobs and job training

Free schools where children actually learned something

and maybe after school programs like sports.

BEFORE THEY EVER THOUGHT OF BEATING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS! hmmmmmmmm..........I wonder. Too bad we will never know.

[Pithlet]

31. I do want to make it clear that I don't defend what they're doing.

And I'm not saying that the mayor is wrong. I just wish that people would consider more the circumstances that lead to these problems, and stop seeing it as a moral character issue. That's all.

[EFerrari]

38. The mayor needs to re-enforce the boundaries of civil behavior

but if that's all he does, he is wrong.

[Pithlet]

53. I agree.

But it is a Washington Times article, so the focus was bound to be all about the behavior.

[Patiod]

39. I am absolutely calling them thugs.

And hoping that an increased police presence in the areas that they've been targetomg (Center City and South Street) will make them stop this shit.

Lock them up? No - too many young men are already in prison. I'd like to see them "sentenced" to job programs, City Year, or some other constructive, job-skill-oriented programs. I'd like to see these programs funded. I'd like to see better area-wide public transportation, so they can get to areas where there are jobs. I work to get Democratic candidates elected at the state and federal level, so there is less chance of having social services and stimulus money cut in the service of long term "fiscal responsibility".

But I also want to see my city be protected against these thugs.

[Pithlet]

44. I'm not saying let them do whatever they want.

You obviously understand the point of progressive programs, by your post. i was addressing the boot strappy Personal Responsibility stuff.

[FLAprogressive]

27. Victim blaming? You have got to be kidding me.

[Supersedeas]

64. Ah, no, I don't think that was kidding

[Patiod]

28. No one is blaming the beating victims

Mayor Nutter is blaming the thug assholes with their cell phones and data plans who think beating up random strangers is fun.

What, in order not to be an "Uncle Tom", he should be encouraging these jackasses

He's doing what he can to keep the city going in a tough economic era.

[DFab420]

32. Yes but he told them to pullup their pants.. Obviously he is an Uncle Tom who hates black youths...

:sarcasm:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

29. They're thugs, not victims.

And it's sad that a fellow African-American is labeled an Uncle Tom because he's telling them to stop acting like thugs.

[EFerrari]

34. America's Cradle to Prison PipelineSM Report

This CDF report documents America's Cradle to Prison Pipeline, an urgent national crisis at the intersection of poverty and race that puts Black boys at a one in three lifetime risk of going to jail, and Latino boys at a one in six lifetime risk of the same fate. Tens of thousands of children and teens are sucked into the Pipeline each year.

The report includes:

* an overview of the major factors behind the Pipeline through stories and statistics and longer term policy goals
* Time Magazine Steve Liss's moving photographs that show the faces of children in the Pipeline
* Julia Cass and Connie Curry's case studies describing how the Pipeline affects children on the ground in Mississippi and Ohio at one point in time
* calls for the hard work and persistence needed to build a transforming movement to finish the work begun by the Civil Rights Movement and Dr. King's Poor People's Campaign to put the social and economic foundations beneath all children and families
* descriptions of some promising approaches to help keep children out of the Pipeline and research tables and state-by-state data of key child indicators

http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/cradle-prison-pipeline-report-2007-full-highres.html

Or, you could just tell these thugs to pull their pants up, I guess.

[Patiod]

45. This is absolutely true, but I'm trying to separate the two strands

And reading your posts here, I think you are, too, EFerrari.

Strand 1: Too many black youths at risk (the Pipeline), and no one cares. In fact, it seems like certain segments of the population WANT more black people in prison.

Strand 2: Jackass thugs who can afford phones and data plans beating on people for fun. Not acceptable. The mayor is criticizing them, and that's NOT "uncle tom" behavior, that's fucking appropriate to for the mayor to tell them to knock it the fuck off.

Both of these strands can exist independently, and those of us who want to see more equality of opportunity, good public schools, policies to support and strengthen young families and young children, job-preparation programs for young people, etc., can also think we need police on the streets to discourage these kids who think it's fun to beat people up.

[EFerrari]

48. Right. The mayor's response, though, was packaged by the Moonie Times

to look as if he agrees with their take on the situation. He can't help that.

[luvspeas]

51. cognitive dissonance much?

[Supersedeas]

68. I'm am not sure that I follow all of the implications of that distinction

'At risk' violent behavior is something that might be tolerated....while violent behavior from those who can afford data plans is something we should discourage by strongly urging them to please knock it off.

Should we merely stress it...or strongly discourage?

At least we can all agree the law enforcement might be an answer to those kids who think that it is fun to beat people up. But then the question is: was it 'at risk' fun or data planned enable fun?

Something tells me that the beating victim (lest we forget them) would be hard pressed to draw the distinction between these strands as they are getting the snot kicked out of them.

[Patiod]

71. I'm not suggesting that the victims need to understand the distinction

I am saying, though, that it's possible to understand the underlying problems and work to mitigate them AND also support a strong police presence as well as arresting these kids and putting them into constructive restitution or training program (more young people rotting in the current prison complex isn't going to help anything).

There are those here to argue that if you view these thugs as thugs, you're pro-poverty, pro-racism, pro-classism and you're a tea party conservative. No, I'm just anti-thug.

[Supersedeas]

74. that helps....thanks for the follow-up

[Starbucks Anarchist]

47. Yes, that and learning to act like good citizens.

You know, speaking proper English, dressing appropriately, not beating people up. Crazy stuff like that.

And don't lecture me on poverty. My dad grew up in dire poverty in India -- in the 1950s -- that makes Skid Row look like the Hamptons. He immigrated here and became successful far beyond his roots. So it pisses me off when people make excuses for thugs like this because of poverty.

[EFerrari]

50. Explaining something is not agreement or excusing it.

My mother survived the depression in the slums of Mexico City, so? But be as pissed off as you'd like to be.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. You posted that link in response to me objecting to the Uncle Tom description of Nutter.

You didn't specifically disagree with the Uncle Tom statement, nor did you condemn the attacks by these thugs. Instead, you posted that link and said you were "explaining" something.

By only posting that link, you are in essence excusing, or at the very least turning a blind eye, to these criminal actions.

So I ask you directly -- do you think these mob attacks were justified in any way, shape or form?

[EFerrari]

56. That's your assmption. I posted information

and a flip remark about telling kids to pull their pants up.

And, I'm not interested in rendering a judgment or in hearing the judgments of others on this situation. Zero interest, zip, nada, none. I don't think I'll be a better person if I denounce mob behavior, nor am I interested in having your or anyone's approval of my position because this isn't about me.

What is happening in Philly or, rather, the seedbed for this behavior is all over the frickin' country. We've known about it for years and nobody does shit about it. So, when it happens in your town or in mine, we shouldn't be surprised. Maybe your mayor and mine can tell these people to pull their pants up and we can support that.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

60. And what does the information have to do with the topic?

Do you have proof that these thugs would otherwise be good citizens if not for the information you posted? Clearly, this topic was important enough for you to comment about, even if you won't answer my questions, so you must have had a compelling reason to chime in.

And come on, it's not like you've ever held back before. ;)

[EFerrari]

62. You said, they are thugs not victims.

The truth is, those aren't mutually exclusive categories. And the larger truth is, black youths are treated as thugs all over this country as the default. That a very few of them learn that lesson and behave as thugs before they are hauled away to prison regardless of their behavior should surprise no one who knows anything about how people learn.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

66. I agree that it's a shame how black youths are prejudged in many cases.

But on the other hand, engaging in such behavior certainly does not help their case. The black youths I truly feel sorry for are the many upstanding ones who strive to better themselves through their actions/education/etc. and are unjustly lumped in with actual thugs simply because of their skin color. That is a moral wrong and a large part of the blame can be placed on society.

What needs to happen -- and too few people are willing to say this -- is for the black community to take action (Nutter's speech is a good example) and speak to at-risk black youths about being good citizens and not falling into the vicious cycle of violence and prison. There needs to be more self-policing in the community.

[EFerrari]

69. Because the larger society will not do anything any time soon

something like that has to be done as a survival measure. Probably is already being done in a lot of communities. I know the mothers in East Palo Alto went out into the streets at night to slow down the shootings by thugs and police in the late 80s or so. They got tired of losing their kids. We're going to need a revival of those measures right now and in a lot of places.

[JoeyT]

55. Well that's kind of funny.

"You know, speaking proper English, dressing appropriately, not beating people up."

By which you mean "Speak like white people and dress like white people", of course. Once you speak and dress like a white person, the not beating people up will logically follow.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

61. What do white people have to do with this?

I've heard plenty of uneducated white people and plenty of educated minorities speak. I'm a minority myself and I've been told I "sound white," whatever the hell that means. Of course, in that person's mind (and apparently yours), using proper English and not sounding like you're from the ghetto or the trailer park is a bad thing.

In fact, it's comments like yours that are racist. You're assuming all white people act and dress a certain way and all minorities do the opposite. And yes, education (which can come in many forms, including self-taught) does lead to higher self-respect, which can and does prevent thuggish behavior.

[luvspeas]

33. It has become impossible to have a discussion on this board that goes beyond

the confines of the universe that exists in John McCain's front lawn.

[EFerrari]

36. Yep. n/t

[JoeyT]

57. +1000

Any minute now I expect to see someone claim the flash mobs were started by a guy that once whistled at a white woman.

[EFerrari]

65. Under stress, the rightward list of this country

bubbles straight up to the top. It's frightening to me. This article from the Moonie Times is capitalizing on London and people take it in without a shred of skepticism.

[foo_bar]

73. I think you're nailing it

While your root causes OP disappeared from view, we've seen every facet of conservative opinion represented here and on every London-is-burning thread, ranging from the Clarence Thomas bootstrap theory of self-betterment (poverty is a failure of personal responsibility divorced from all social/political/economic context; historically oppressed minorities don't suffer because the odds are stacked against them and have been for centuries, it's because they don't speak the acrolect or integrate more fully into a society that keeps them at arm's length), to Will Bennett et alia's "personal responsibility" mantra, the personification of Spiro Agnew's truncheons and bombs or Nixon's '68 acceptance speech ("It is the voice of the great majority of Americans, the forgotten Americans -- the non-shouters; the non-demonstrators. They are not racists or sick; they are not guilty of the crime that plagues the land..."), to flat out appeals to the lower limbic system ... I don't expect purity of opinion on DU or even a faint leftward tilt, but you're absolutely right: there's a gross disparity between the opportunistic ideals publicly espoused when it's convenient (like the quaint notion of "due process") versus the Silent Majority view that predominates under the strain of accepting even impersonal responsibility for historical and modern injustices.

"You know, if I listen to <Dukakis> long enough, I would be convinced that we're in an economic downturn, and that people are homeless, and people are going without food and medical attention, and that we've got to do something about the unemployed." - http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/09/us/president-asserts-dukakis-distorts-economic-picture.html?pagewanted=2

[Supersedeas]

70. John McCain's front lawn....what exactly do you mean by that?

[Warpy]

43. I'd feel a bit better about this had he not stupidly called them flash mobs

Flash mobs play music and do dances in public places. Flash mobs can be a little inconvenient but they're always fun.

These are just gangs of vicious little punks.

[luvspeas]

49. AWWWWWW! I'm sorry if that made you feel bad...

This is getting comical

[LanternWaste]

58. a boat with many holes needs all of them repaired...

I imagine there are many reasons for incidences like this.

I'd hazard that by focusing our energies, our time, and and our efforts on simply one cause allows the other causes to expand in the anonymity of our society, much like the boat with many holes needs all of them repaired rather than just the holes that are easiest to see or easiest to repair.