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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:08 PM
Original message
London Riots: Before & After Photographs
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 12:39 PM by Turborama
Images of damaged buildings in Croydon and Tottenham show the full force of the riots on local communities. Move the slider to see the effect on each property: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2011/aug/09/london-riots-before-after-photographs


-

And here are some during and after...

















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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. "This is what freedom looks like."
:eyes:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
129. Spot on- Where people are oppressed, that's what Freedom Looks Like---
...or at least what the beginnings of freedom, of fighting back and making noise, looks like.

Where did I read that?

Oh yeah, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1695555&mesg_id=1695588

:hi:

And kindly give a read and a K/R to this thoughtful DU post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1707829

:patriot:
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. And people here defend this shit.....
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Amazing, isn't it?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Burn down a family owned furniture store...
...put 50 people out of work.

Up the revolution, man.

:eyes:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. take heart, the keyboard revolutionaries and cardboard cutout comrades,
wouldn't have the guts to do these things themselves.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That is sad among a sea of sad... How old was that store?
I have empathy for those who have lived with the impacts of social inequality, but never the rampant violence and destruction.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. It was built in 1867
Croydon riots: Reeves furniture store owners talk of fire devastation


Maurice Reeves of Reeves Furniture store in Croydon, Surrey,
talks to reporters outside his destroyed showroom


It has withstood two World Wars since being set up in 1867 but today the House of Reeves furniture store in Croydon smouldered after rioters razed it to the ground.


Maurice Reeves outside the furniture shop

Firefighters continued to train their hoses on the devastated building to dampen pockets of fire still flaring up hours after arsonists struck.

Amid the scene of destruction, locals turned out to condemn the "mindless" criminals responsible for bringing a once-proud family business to its knees.

Its owner, Trevor Reeves, spoke of his sense of loss and disappointment at a police cordon as acrid smoke belched from the ashes of the building in the background.

Full article: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/09/croydon-riots-reeves-furniture-store-owners-talk-of-fire-devastation-115875-23331653/
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. there is the "oppressor". right there. yea oppressed. nt
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
59. so sad it was there to have it destroyed in less than 30 min.
this was his family's business so sad.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
98. Here's a detailed photo showing what's left of the C19th architecture...
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
130. Makes me want to cry.
awful
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. And make all the people who lived in the flats above the store homeless
Trash your own neighborhood and ensure business flees and doesn't come back. Ever.

If these punks are dumb enough to think this shit is going to work, at least give them the satisfaction of taking it to the plutocracy's neighborhoods.

But no, they trash their own neighborhoods, make their own people homeless, and make sure their mothers will need to ride the tube for an hour to buy a loaf of bread.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #69
109. It is an expression of anger and frustration, not a rational
means of dealing with injustice.

This happens when the majority of people ignore the injustice to the few.

What a horror! And it is utterly self-defeating.

But we saw precisely the same self-defeating behavior here in LA in the early '90s during the first Bush administration in the aftermath of the Rodney King verdicts. It is not unique to the UK.

It's the same kind of irrational response that those Tea-Baggers who are not at all wealthy have -- just anger and frustration poorly directed at the biggest target in their sight.

It's like coming home from a bad day in the office and yelling at your dog. (I don't have a dog and don't do this, but you get the idea.)
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah for the "revolutionary socialists world wide"
:eyes:
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rec'd
.
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War Horse Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. From #londonriots on twitter:
"The Youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms. The Youth of London rise up for a HD ready 42" Plasma TV"
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. damn
so horrible

k&r
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. It would be really cool if the same thing happened in the USA, but not in my neighborhood.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Destroying people's businesses, homes, and lives is OK?
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Please replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector.
I saw the aftermath of the 1992 LA riots in Long Beach. The rioters burned and looted businesses that never returned. There are still empty lots around town because businesses don't want to risk having everything destroyed in minutes by hooligans. It is an unintended collective punishment of communities that had limited shopping options to begin with.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
135. Don't assume the sarcasm was that obvious.
Some people write things like that and they are stone-cold serious.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
136. Gotta spend that EBT somewhere...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
111. No. We went through this in LA. There is nothing cool about it at all.
Especially if you have children who are in school when it happens.

Thankfully, it did not happen in my own neighborhood, but I watched the fires start from my office downtown. It was very frightening.

I understand that the British plan to start community policing. That is what was done here, and it worked very well. I wish them luck with starting communication between the ordinary citizens and the police, local authorities and local businesses (if there are any left after these riots).
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
134. No, just in somebody else's?
That's convenient. :eyes:
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. wouldn't doubt that Bobbies will start carrying guns regularly
and I wouldn't blame them

not now
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
94. England might consider changing its "gun ban" laws as well. nt
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Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #94
126. Doubtful. More likely they'll use this as an excuse to tighten their control further.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
113. Community policing would be more helpful.
That is when citizens in the community have a direct line to the police on which they can report criminal activity. We had that in LA at one point (Neighborhood Watch) and it was great. We had a special telephone number for an officer assigned to our area. If there was some incident like a thefto or something we could call right through.

In addition, police officers came to homes in our neighborhood and talked to us about what they were doing and listened to our problems. Just a great program all around.

I heard they were thinking of trying that in the UK. It would help get leaders in the communities talking to the police as people.
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socialshockwave Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's a disgrace that some people on DU defend this shit.
I'm sure you wouldn't like it if a bunch of teenagers came in and demanded your clothes and then set fire to your home?

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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
47. +1000000
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. The right-wing media and pols all agree with the OP
Yeah we know: the rioters are scum, their actions have no political meaning, they must be demonized lest anyone find meaning in their actions.

I'm surprised to find so many DUers unable to see through this.

Anyway, here's a very well stated alternative viewpoint to the right-wing, mainstream DU view:

http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html
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socialshockwave Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Please.
The rioters are the lowest of scum - attacking innocent people, firebombing small businesses and homes, and stealing from their fellow citizens.

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. You, the UK right-wing, 16000 cops and most DUers agree on this
So you must be right. These riots are devoid of political meaning, class doesn't exist, lawbreaking is always wrong, it's just like terrorism, etc., etc.

You may want to help that cause. Me, when push comes to shove, I know who is not on my side.
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socialshockwave Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Huh?
Um, I agree there are problems in the UK. There is obviously much anger about the austerity measures yes, but to do THIS?

This hurts their cause, it doesn't help it.

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. These youth aren't political tactitions promoting a cause
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 01:17 PM by Bragi
They aren't thinking political strategy and how do I go about promoting a cause.

They are just understanding that they now have an opportunity to give a big, visible "fuck you" to a society that has written them off.





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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
93. This "fuck you" is fucking plenty of the wrong people...
...and likely fucking the people who might deserve it little if nothing at all.

Something can be full of political meaning, class can exist, and lawbreaking can sometimes be right... that doesn't change the fact that most of these rioters are assholes hurting the wrong people. No matter how justified they might be in being angry, that does not justify hurting the wrong people to express their anger, it does not justify striking out at any convenient target, and it stupidly decreases sympathy among others for their cause.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. So this is all just about truthy to power?
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. No, not really
I think it's mostly about hopeless young people taking the opportunity to say Fuck You to a society that has written them off.

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
97. "When push comes to shove" expect the consequences of your actions...
Rioters during the Rodney King sentencing aftermath beat people and looted/destroyed many businesses. Except those which were defended; not by government, not by the militia, not by some rag-tag counter flash mob. But by the citizens themselves: Many businesses/residences were defended by their occupants, using devices not allowed in England. Wanna guess what they were?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #97
116. And some of those people using those devices were also killed.
The mobs were pretty powerful and oblivious to danger in some cases.

I live in LA and remember it quite well.

Guns did help, but the underlying problem had to be dealt with in order to prevent the riots from happening again.

We could have those riots again if we don't watch out. The current repressive attitudes do not bode well.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
115. The acts of the rrioters are low, but the rioters may in fact
be very different when they are not part of a mob.

The question is why did so many people become so angry and risk so much all of a sudden?

Destroying your own neighborhood is not a rational thing to do, so what motivated them?

This is unusual behavior. You can't just dismiss these crowds of people as scum. There may be some incorrigible criminals among them, but they aren't all just hopelessly cruel people.

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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Interesting article....some good points.
"Riots are about power, and they are about catharsis. They are not about poor parenting, or youth services being cut, or any of the other snap explanations that media pundits have been trotting out: structural inequalities, as a friend of mine remarked today, are not solved by a few pool tables. People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything – literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night. And now people have lost their homes, and the country is tearing itself apart.

Noone expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter."




Perhaps America should pay closer attention the the causes....
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. Yes, I thought this blog was well-written and thoughtful.
nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
117. + 1000
There has to be a widespread disillusionment and hopelessness to cause enough people to spontaneously join together to form a riot.

The conduct must be condemned, but the causes must also be investigated.

Trying to understand and deal with the underlying causes for these events does not equate with approval of them. Quite to the contrary.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. thanks for posting that link--it does give some perspective
doesn't excuse the violence or celebrate it...but gives the violence and destruction a context beyond just labeling it mere criminality (which some of it may be--but all of it)?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
72. you'd be crying your ass off if rioters burnt down your home for no good reason.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #72
118. For sure. I live in LA, however, and we went through this in the early 1990s
after the Rodney King decision.

It is not enough to condemn the outrageous, horrible destruction. If you don't want it to happen again, you have to find out what motivated this very unusual behavior.

When a small group -- even as many as twenty people -- riot or wreak havoc, then it is a crime. But when crowds like those in the UK start to riot, the cause is deeper, societal. It isn't just bad behavior. There is something more behind it. So to end it, you have to find out what that is and deal with it.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #118
128. "So to end it, you have to find out what that is and deal with it." i agree totally. what irks
me is that some folks are cheering this like people are stickin' it to the man, where in reality, the people hurt by this weren't the rich folks in gated communities. it was people like the local furniture maker.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. True.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
95. Pretty low-rent, bud...
I've seen beach town riots in the U.S. which have about as much political content as the Sahara has water.

Have you ever considered not being such a reactionary? Calling those who argue against you "right-wing, mainstream DU view" is the kind of ill-logic that most DUers "see through" without problem.

Finally, you miss the point: Even if there was some kind of ideological justification, carry out your attacks on the government; y'know, someone who has the ability to fight back. Not individual citizens, their families, their property. That's cowardice.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. You had a point till "Finally, you miss the point" /nt
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
96. editorials are what's for dinner when there is no real evidence on the plate.
"The right-wing media and pols all agree with the OP..."

I also agreed with Stalin with regards to the role of artillery in WW2, although that certainly doesn't mean I either admire the man or am in a philosophical alliance with him.

Implying that that those who disagree with you on this position are part and parcel of the political opposition is not merely disingenuous (and a logical fallacy), it also implies that in and of itself, you have no credible or valid points to make... :shrug:

I imagine editorials are what's for dinner when there is no real evidence on the plate.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. We went through this shit in '92 in Los Angeles...
A chance for a bunch of criminals to loot and riot. They are burning private businesses and putting people out of work. Fuck these assholes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. You have zero historical understanding of the events of '92.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I disagree...
...it is you who do not understand what the poster is saying.

The riots in LA were about racial oppression and cops getting away with beating the crap out of a man.

However, much of the damage had zero to do with the verdict or racial problems - it was a chance to destroy and rampage. When you start destroying stores and attacking random people - any valid argument goes out the window.

The same with the London riots...

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Horseshit.
Actions don't occur in a vacuum.

"...it was a chance to destroy and rampage." Rampage what? South Central? Clue-phone for you: It was already destroyed and rampaged.

I was born there.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Really? South Central was the ONLY place that was destroyed?
Wow...I must have been in a different Los Angeles. I saw riots all over the city...not just in South Central.

Maybe you should do some research before telling someone they don't know what they're talking about.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. More horseshit.
Who said "ONLY?" (Your capitalization)
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. You're the one that made it about South Central...
I'm just saying that was not the only part of Los Angeles that had riots.

I know it started out as the result of the Rodney King Beating verdicts, but it certainly grew into much more than that. How can you deny it?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. I'm not denying it. End of straw. nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
121. The riots were in South-Central and areas converging on South-Central
Edited on Wed Aug-10-11 03:08 AM by JDPriestly
I may even have reached up into Hollywood and also to the nice areas to the West of South Central because those areas border on South-Central. Hollywood is to the North quite a ways, but I think there was rioting in Koreatown which is just North of South Central. Our area in the Northeast is not a wealthy area, but we were spared. So, no the riots were not all over town, not at all.

And by the way, I have heard that the riots really got bad because the police just kind of sat on their hands waiting for orders from Parker Center that never came.

At approximately 6:45 pm, Reginald Oliver Denny, a white truck driver who stopped at a traffic light at the intersection of Florence and South Normandie Avenues, was dragged from his vehicle and severely beaten by a mob of local black residents as news helicopters hovered above, recording every blow, including a concrete fragment connecting with Denny's temple and a cinder block thrown at his head as he lay unconscious in the street. The police never appeared, having been ordered to withdraw for their own safety, although several assailants (the so-called L.A. Four) were later arrested and one, Damian Williams, was sent to prison.

Instead, Denny was rescued by an unarmed, African American civilian named Bobby Green Jr. who, seeing the assault live on television, rushed to the scene and drove Denny to the hospital using the victim's own truck, which carried twenty-seven tons of sand. Denny had to undergo years of rehabilitative therapy, and his speech and ability to walk were permanently damaged. Although several other motorists were brutally beaten by the same mob, Denny remains the best-known victim of the riots because of the live television coverage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

After the riots, our police force became much more sensitive and more responsive to community needs especially those of minority communities. Hopefully, the UK government and the governments of the UK cities will respond by reviewing some of their police policies. I understand that complaints about the conduct of police officers helped trigger these riots.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Exactly. I understand what started the riots...I think everyone does.
But the riots reached a point where people were using it as an excuse to loot and steal. People who had nothing to do with the verdict were injured and killed; innocent business owners lost their stores. It was a mob that grew and eventually became out of control.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
120. I remember an interview on TV with a man who was stealing a mattress
during the LA riots. The TV interviewer couldn't believe his eyes. Why would someone steal a mattress?

So the interviewer asked the thief why he was stealing a mattress. Didn't he have a mattress? And the thief's answer was "No." It's incredible to those of us who are more middle class to think that a person does not have a mattress to sleep on, but the people in Britain might be surprised at the sense of deprivation that is motivating some of the rioters.

Upper middle class people only riot when they are drunk. That is not true of the desperately poor.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Nah, I think he pretty much nailed it.
I clearly remember those days.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Right...I was here. I saw what went down.
What did the rioting solve?

How many innocent people lost their businesses and their lives?

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Why should rioting "solve" anything?
No-one ever said riots "solve" anything. Riots by marginalized people are just a way of saying Fuck You to the society that has written them off.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. No, it's a way of saying "fuck you" to the people who need to shop at the store you just burned.
And the people who work there.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Maybe that too
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 01:33 PM by Bragi
Marginalized poor people don't as easily get sales jobs in England (bad accents, no education, etc.) and probably can't afford to buy much furniture anyway.

So I don't think they see it the same way as you do. They're probably fine with saying Fuck You to store owners, their employees and their customers.


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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Yes, because they all obviously agree with you.
Who cares if they have to take an extra bus route to get to the market that wasn't burned down? It's not as if they have anything else do, being all unemployed and such.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. How long did Gates last?
Gone in a year. Mission accomplished.

How many people lost/couldn't get businesses in the first place? Before the riots.
How many people were beaten by the LAPD? Before the riots.

Before the riots.
Before the riots.
Before the riots.
Before the riots.
Before the riots!

It's not pretty but it didn't happen in a vacuum.

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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Did the riots solve any of those problems???
I don't think so.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. Did not rioting solve the problems?
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 01:42 PM by RUMMYisFROSTED
:think:

It solved Gates. An important minimal victory. Better than nothing.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #55
123. Actually, a lot changed after the riots in 1992.
The police reviewed their policies. The police chief whose response to the Rodney King verdict was so ineffective was removed. And the police began to work closely with the leaders in local communities.

We still have gangs in LA but things are much more peaceful now. Also, I notice from the ethnic make-up of my community that we are racially and ethnically much more integrated now at least in my neighborhood. It isn't all people of a certain decent in our area. It is a lot more mixed. That helps ease tensions I think.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
64. that is it they are putting people out of work and in this time
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 01:46 PM by bdamomma
very dangerous to be out of work.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
84. A-freakin'-MEN. n/t
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
119. But the riots in LA (I'm in LA and was here in 1992) were a response
to the Rodney King trial outcomes. There was pent up social unrest and a sense of injustice in a community.

That is bound to be what is behind the UK riots too.

In LA, Neighborhood Watch and community policing made a big difference.

I live in what is supposed to be a gang area. (I rarely notice that there are gangs here, but we are under the injunction). The Neighborhood Watch program was a big help because it permitted local community leaders (whoever was interested enough to meet with police representatives) to communicate with the police about the problems in their neighborhood.

I hope that the British start something like the Neighborhood watch and community policing so that they can open communication between the police and the frustrated populace.

These riots involve a mixture of just plain criminals and people who are frustrated. That was also true in the LA riots.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. Any before/afters on people's lives?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Yeah, here's a couple of afters on people's lives...




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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
65. Any befores?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Yes
In the link at the top of the OP.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I'm talking lives not property.
And there lies our divergence.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. People's businesses are their livelihood.
Or are you asking to see pictures of living and dead people?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I'm asking the impossible*.
A picture of people's circumstances.

* It's not impossible with compassion.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #73
124. Yes. Lives are businesses.
Edited on Wed Aug-10-11 03:20 AM by JDPriestly
For couples, the destruction of a family business by rioters can mean bankruptcy and divorce and all kinds of family problems. It is just awful.

But you still have to view the social bases for the riots themselves so that you can prevent recurrences.

It isn't enough just to condemn bad behavior. You have to examine it and learn how to prevent it in the future. The police did not respond effectively or quickly enough in London when the riots began. It seems as though they didn't believe what was happening or just didn't care. I'm inclined to think they just couldn't believe it.

That indicates to me that the police in Britain do not have good communications with certain communities for which they are responsible.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. So, to express their dissatisfaction with the government
some people are burning down businesses that provide jobs to other people?

I hope that they catch the teenage hoodlums that burned down the family owned furniture store and punish them accordingly.

One thing is to protest current economic conditions and another thing altogether is to destroy someone else's property. They had no right to burn businesses, homes and cars. They should have to pay restitution to the owners.

x(
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socialshockwave Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. THANK YOU
There are problems and probably legitimate concerns among the citizenry. I hate what Cameron is doing to the social safety net in the UK myself.

But...to do this? This just makes it -worse-.

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. "There are problems and probably legitimate concerns"
Really?

I think the "probably legitimate concerns" of people living in poverty in the UK are pretty well documented.

Check it out sometime.
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socialshockwave Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. What else do you want me to say??
It's true. I know it is! I don't like Cameron's government!

I don't think rioting helps the poor, though.

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. Let me predict something
When the dust settles, the Cameron government will be a lot less triumphant, and a bit more careful, about cutting services that support people in poor communities.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #53
125. And they will improve relations between the police and the communities
that they are supposed to secure. That is a big problem in communities in which riots get way out of hand.

A few hoodlums cause and uproar. If the police respond properly and quickly, the uproar does not turn into a riot. In Britain the uproar was allowed to get way out of hand. That is a failure by the police as well as criminal conduct by the rioters.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Yes, there are other non-destructive ways to protest.
I was in Spain in June and there were sit-ins in parks in every major city protesting the lack of jobs (their unemployment rate is over 20%). The sit-ins were peaceful and no people or property were injured or damaged.

;)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. And what changed?
The important question.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. The same that is going to change in Britain after burning down so much property.
Very little so far, but at least in Spain they were listened to and the govt. is not trying to apprehend and send the lot to jail.

:shrug:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. We'll see.
I guarantee that more people are paying attention, though. The first step.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. They ignored the peaceful protests and passed the austerity measures, right?
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 02:05 PM by Bragi
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Someone gets it.
:thumbsup:
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. And the austerity measures were passed anyway, right?
Let me make a prediction: when the dust settles and the smoke clears, the Cameron government will be a bit less likely to congratulate themselves on cutting programs that help poor communities, and a bit more likely to avoid more cuts that may trigger more riots.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. The riots hurt people who had nothing to do with the economic situation.
Hoodlums are hoodlums, regardless of their excuse to burn and destroy other people's property.

:-(
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #68
83. It's OK, I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King would have approved of this.
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 02:07 PM by FLAprogressive
:sarcasm:
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
76. 'This' is ONE of the 'natural' CONSEQUENCES of the class war cameron&co is waging
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 02:03 PM by Amonester
Against.The.Will.Of.A.Majority.Of.People.Expressed.In.Poll.After.Poll

If you don't like them ALWAYS ignoring what the majority of people wants (TAX THE RICH TO THE MAX instead of cutting cuts and cuts), put the blame where it belongs: The Elite$ Should Have Known Better BEFORE Always Obscenely Favouring Their Mega-Rich Donors At The Expense of The Working Class And Middle Class.

As Long As The Elite$ Will Keep Ignoring The Will Of The People
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
It Will Be FaceBooked+Tweeted+YouTubed
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #76
110. The arsonists and thieves are not revolutionaries
They are just arsonists and thieves.

The comments you made are valid overall. But in this context they are not.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. Such a shame to see beautiful old buildings destroyed for no reason.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. I wonder how many of those rioters came home to find their place
burned to the ground and what a strange feeling that must have been.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
56. crap it looks like WW2 again
that is really sickening, there is more than one way to communicate other than destroying peoples businesses and property. sickening.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Newsflash: these youth are not communications experts
They are just hopeless young people angrily saying fuck you to a society that has written them off.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. but they did not have to destroy other people's property,
those were middle class local peoples businesses and now they are out of work too. there is no such thing as tolerance anymore, people are so quick to do someone in.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Middle class people with businesses have a future right?
That would be a major difference between middle class business owners and the hopeless youths who are saying Fuck You through rioting.

That and having insurance to cover their losses, of course.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. Well maybe they need to learn. And if they don't attempt to, then maybe they deserve to be written
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 02:05 PM by FLAprogressive
off.

Fuck people who think that destroying other people's livelihoods is going to make shit better. That's not the way to solve problems.

Dr. King would not have advocated this.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. "Dr. King would not have advocated this"
No, he probably would not have "advocated this" but I'll bet that, unlike most here at DU, he did understand what people with no hope who have been written off can do, and he understood their need for a political program to achieve their goals.

I hope that the left-behind UK youth soon get a political leader who will show similar leadership.

One thing I am confident about is that that leader will not emerge from the ranks of the mournful, hand-wringing right-wingers who cheered for all the policies that contribute to poverty, and who are now so puzzled and distressed by the current "totally inexplicable" riots.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
102. It really does.
If I recall correctly, Croydon took more V1 hits than any other neighborhood in the London area, in addition to all the regular bombing they sustained for five long years.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=75196
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steveumpire/5178591582/in/set-72157622862006866/

Oh, what a sad visit from the ghosts of the past.
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War Horse Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
61. One thing I don't quite understand
To suggest that people are unaware of the underlying issues simply because they are disgusted by the out of control destruction and obvious opportunism... I don't get that.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
91. I don't get it, either.
There seem to be a lot of mind readers out on parade today.
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Proles Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
78. Certainly don't approve of any of this,
but this is simply what inevitably happens when desparation hits its peak.
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Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
82. I've been arguing throughout the day with people who think
that this is the beginning of some glorious People's uprising, and are wondering why we don't do it here too. (Maybe if they got off DU for a minute they could start one in Paducah or Bedford Falls or wherever they live.)

Bullshit. Mindless destruction. The People are the ones who will suffer when they're left homeless and jobless because of the fires.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. The status quo thanks you for your support /nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Nice false dichotomy.
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Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Nice tidy meaningless response. nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. uhhhh I agreed with your post....
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Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Ooooh. Yikes. Sorry.
This is what happens when you spend too much time arguing on the internet. Apologies. :blush:
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
127. I plead guilty
A badly framed argument.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #86
106. "status quo" = "not having your small business burned to the ground" (nt)
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. In America, the police shoot first and ask questions later...
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
92. Heartbreaking


--imm
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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
99. No one admits training the attack dog to run amok
But when they do, we have no problem tracing the problem back to "bad owners". I totally understand that riots are almost 100% misdirected and not productive. They are also not planned and not designed by some group sitting in a coffee shop. Even if you could somehow prove that the mobs were totally opportunistic and non-political, the reality is that the only political participation hopeless people feel they can count in raw violence.

Anyway, the mistake is looking at a riot and attempting to place rational factors into what is ultimately a crime of passion.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. The theft and vandalism that's been going on are not "crimes of passion"
They are just simply violent crimes. The only passionate thing about is that they seemed to have fun doing it, which was their motive.
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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Yeah, and some guys just like being in a war
That doesn't mean that the "reason" for the war was fun and games. Without any doubt, a significant percentage of the people that joined the riot did so just because they are jerks. However, that doesn't change the reality that a riot is a collective emotional event, not some bloodless, rationalized protest. Just because some people (even many people) join in later for fun and profit means nothing.
If a dude burns his house down to protest foreclosure and I come along and roast a marshmallow, the house wasn't burnt down as part of a smore-making accident. I was NOT at the riot in England and I can not tell you what happensed. I can say that authority will always claim there is no justification for a riot (and perhaps there isn't). Authority will always also try to ignore or discount any "reason" the riot may have started.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. You are correct.It wasn't a protest. n/t
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
105. Burning down a family-owned furniture store dating back to the 19th century
*really* sticks it to Goldman Sachs and the banksters.

Way to go, guys!
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HipChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
107. Looks like Belfast used to look..

Karma...
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:38 AM
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112. Awful, just awful
so sad to see such wanton destruction. :-(
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 02:42 AM
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114. Deleted message
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
122. Shot from above of the burnt out apartments and shops in the penultimate picture in the OP...
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
131. This is what happens when people get pushed to far
All it takes is a spark (pun intended)

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
132. Riots are a force of nature. Calling them immoral or foolish is like calling
a tornado immoral or foolish.

I have worked in mental health for over a decade, and I have noticed those who have no voice are the most likely to become violent. It's human nature.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-11 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
137. Sickening.
What a bunch of idiots!
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