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Policy: How do we get to 20% of electricity from wind in 20 years?

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:31 PM
Original message
Policy: How do we get to 20% of electricity from wind in 20 years?
I'm hoping many of the policy geeks @ Kos will stop by. As an initial national goal I've been really liking the idea that we can get 20% of our electricity from wind and 20% from solar in 20 yrs. We have got to expand Americas energy portfolio, and time is a wasting, every time I look over at the Alberta Tar sands project, its getting bigger and uglier.

There seem to be 4 different policy choices to be made if we want to kick start wind power. Tax policy to improve capital flow, carbon pricing, Federally guaranteed loans, and National Mandates. I really want to use tax policy, not just to install gigawatts of wind energy, but to make the turbines in the US, creating the largest number jobs in the US as possible.


I've gone over many White Papers available on the net, concerning solar and wind, one thing seems to a constant when it come to US groups advocating for wind and solar: they want to build turbines and solar panels in the US. For some reason Job creation is all the rage recently (Another diary).

In 2008 the US installed more Wind capacity than any other country, over 8,300 Mw. But in 2007 only 44.8% of the US market was installed by a US company. How do we get capital interested in building factories in the US that make solar panels and wind turbines?

44.8% of market: http://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/Executive_Briefings/USITC_EB_WindTurbines_David.pdf

If we use a National mandate for 20% in 20 yrs, it might have to include a made in America component.

If use a price for carbon emissions, well those factories that make solar panels and wind turbines need power. Is that where the trading comes in?

Federally guaranteed loans, to wind turbine manufacturers? What about start ups? New Capital to the market will have to apply, GE is the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the US. If a handful of uber rich types want to pool 30 billion bucks, form a corporation to compete against GE in the wind turbine market, FINE. Wanna do the right thing for America? Great, maybe we should throw you a bone for that....how about a nice juicy tax break? Cause you might have trouble getting one of those loans.

Tax Policy, we can tax the top rate at 70% and offer tax breaks down to as far as 35% to build those factories we want (emerging tech and markets). I know that reeks of supply side economics, but its also what used to be called Industrial Policy, going back to Sidney Hillman, the AFL, and FDR's Kitchen Cabinet. Corporate taxes, raise the Corporate rate significantly and give breaks to incentivize investment in emerging tech and markets like wind and solar. Should we match the Cap Gains rate to the Corporate rate?

But, why should I build a factory to make solar or wind, when I can make far more speculating on commodities?

Does a National Mandate of 20% in 20 years move capital from speculation to factories?

Is a price on carbon emissions going to curb speculation in options futures, commodities or derivatives?

Federally guaranteed loans for renewable energy are not going to have much effect on speculation either.

But if you're uber rich and have a few billion, and your account tells you that with the tax changes next year your gains from commodities speculation means your gonna get killed tax wise, BUT, there is a way out.....
... you can avoid those tax increases, and do just as well as you did in speculation, by building factories that make solar panels or wind turbines, or AC to DC inverter stations, and cable for HVDC trunklines, above ground and offshore.

I'm telling you, as your accountant, you'll be putting yourself in a much better position.

20% in 20 years for solar and wind mean directly creating about a million jobs, Smartgrid would add about another 450k jobs. If we produce enough to export, we can expect 500k to a million more jobs. 2.5 million jobs directly created by the simple choice of setting 20% in 20 yrs as a national goal.

Energy conservation improvements to residential and commercial buildings, start with an additional 500k jobs. Maybe a million.

Revitalize the Manufacturing sector, 2 million jobs created over 10 years.

Spend 5% to 6% of GDP on infrastructure, in a 13 trillion dollar economy start off at 650 billion a year, and tally up another 1.5 to 2 million jobs.

I believe this country needs to spend at least 10% of GDP on jobs stimulus every year for 5 years. We can fix the economy, expand Americas Energy portfolio, reduce carbon emissions, more jobs means more FICA being paid into Social Security, improving the chance that SS will be good thru 2050, or 2065, or even thru 2085. We get to reduce the deficit because an improved economy means more Federal tax revenue. Good jobs means reversing wage disparity so that working class families can better take are of their own. Increasing taxes on the wealthy can lower the tax burden on working class families, engaging them in the economy, instead of seeing these families taxed out of the economy.

ORIGINALLY POSTED TO KEYNESIAN KOSSACKS ON SAT AUG 06, 2011 AT 06:56 PM EDT.

ALSO REPUBLISHED BY KOSOWATT, NUCLEAR FREE DK, PROGRESSIVE POLICY ZONE, INCOME INEQUALITY KOS, AND COMMUNITY SPOTLIGHT.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. You do it by building resources to take over 1% every year.
On average, of course. Doable.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thru tax policy, carbon pricing, National Mandates, or
Federally guaranteed loans for renewable energy?

Some people like Feed in Tariffs, but we want renewables to be cheaper, FIT tend to keep prices higher.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Emulate Denmark?
No telling what would have been possible without Halliburton&Shrub running the show for 8 years.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. emulate with what policy?
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The usual -- taxes, subsidies, loan guarantees...
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yes, Ok, My favorite is tax policy
I wanna see turbines and solar panels made in America, the jobs component is significant.
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nomb Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Windfarm Washington, DC and then open the Capital windows?
Sorry. Sometimes the fruit is just so low and ripe - you just have to pick it.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Dammit
You beat me to it! :silly: :hi:
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Portugal has reached near 45% using all viable renewables in about 10 years...
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 02:45 PM by Luminous Animal
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. An article from last year's New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/science/earth/10portugal.html

To force Portugal’s energy transition, Mr. Sócrates’s government restructured and privatized former state energy utilities to create a grid better suited to renewable power sources. To lure private companies into Portugal’s new market, the government gave them contracts locking in a stable price for 15 years — a subsidy that varied by technology and was initially high but decreased with each new contract round.



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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Details, excellent, thanks
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Yes. I included that link in my post.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deep-Offshore Wind on Tension Leg Platforms
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I have a diary @ Kos publishing at 4pm on the AWC
Atlantic Wind Connection, a 350 mile HVDC undersea back bone for 7kMw of turbines about 12 to 18 miles offshore.

http://www.dailykos.com/blog/Roger%20Fox/
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I'll have to look at that this evening :)
And what I've read about deep offshore wind is that the potential is in the tens of terawatts, if not higher. Now, I read that once on TreeHugger.com and can't seem to find the source any longer, so I don't know how accurate that data is. Onshore wind is also measured with a similar potential, but at least with offshore, the naysayers won't be able to complain about "ugliness".
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. AWC region, 60,000Mw in shallow areas closer to shore
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 03:44 PM by FogerRox
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks!
:)
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DonRedwood Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. By getting started NOW and not putting it off!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. 100% agreed
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. It could be done, but not by a country trapped in partisan gridlock. So it won't be done. nt
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Ah yes, the conundrum
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Change Happens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. We need more storms?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Move to somewhere where oil corporations are not part of the dictatorship?
:shrug:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. oil tends to overwhelm the energy markets
The price of solar per Kw and wind is even cheaper mens the time of big oils influence is limited.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Just have one giant windmill
Place it in arkansas.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. We will hit peak oil (very expensive oil) long before the 20 years
have passed. We need to apply the same focus to the development of alternative energy that we applied to developing the atomic bomb.

It is a matter of the survival of our country.

This is the biggest defense issue we face.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Vital point, use the oil and coal we have left to build the generation
of energy infrastructure.. . . . . . . . . or else.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. bobby kennedy, jr. has been talking about this for a long time. he was at the Commonwealth Club
last week and gave a talk very simlar to this, from youtube, ca. 2009:

"The biggest crisis that the world faces is global warming-climate change. The challenge is how do we use energy and how do we generate energy in a way that does not compromise our children's future, while at the same time helping poor people around the world, reducing international tension and potential wars over resources. The US borrows one billion dollars a day in order to import a billion dollars of oil which adds up to 750 billion dollars a year being exported. The US gives 1.3 trillion dollars a year to the oil industry in subsidies. The nuclear industry gets about a half trillion dollars a year in subsidies.

Nuclear is the most catastrophically expensive and dangerous way to boil a pot of water. The key for these polluting energy sources like coal, nuclear, oil and gas is that they externalize these high costs which makes them appear to be more affordable. Nuclear insurance is another subsidy. If nuclear was safe then why can't they get insurance? Coal is subsidized to the tune of about one trillion a year. Coal for generating electricity has now polluted every stream in America to the point where every fish is now contaminated with mercury from that coal. These hidden subsidies effectively privatize publicly owned resources since it is free for them to contaminate them, killing 60,000 people a year and destroying ever more wilderness.



These subsidies to the existing dirty coal, oil, gas and nuclear energy industries are the principal barrier to renewable energy. What would it take to switch to 100% renewable energy, perhaps with a portion of these subsidies?

One options is the use of about 75 square miles of desert in various regions to provide all of the power with every American owning an electric vehicle. North Dakota, Texas and Montana have enough harness-able wind power to provide 100% of the energy requirements.
Perhaps a 50/50 split, when combined with the existing 50% hydro power, and you have resolved all of the reserve issues, in combination with using those electric cars as an on-demand energy storage system. The US uses 1,000 gigawatts of energy a day. Half of it is already hydro. The other fifty percent could easily be switched to solar and wind to provide 100% of this 1,000 gigawatts a day from renewable sources.

Question:
What will it take to get the United States of America to switch to 100 percent renewable energy?


The challenges that once overcome will lead to 100% renewable energy supply:
1. Remove subsidies to coal, oil, gas and nuclear, both hidden and non-hidden.
2. Remove restrictions on access to the grid in all states. Provide guaranteed access to the grid for everyone.
3. Allow anyone to sell into the grid at a price that accounts for the clean renewable value and is at a price that is guaranteed for twenty years.
The system needs to punish bad energy usage behavior and reward good energy usage behavior. Remove inefficiency and waste by removing subsidies to the non-renewables that pollute. Reward renewables that create a reliable clean energy future forever. Everyone can become an energy entrepreneur, every home becomes an energy power plant, and the ones with most imagination, initiative and drive transform the world into one that is profitable and healthy for our children.

Creating the market is simple. Follow the example that Ontario Canada has established through a Renewable Energy Act that creates a market that will drive the American entrepreneurial spirit. If the US, if President Obama, chose to implement this type of policy, the United States would lead the world toward a renewable energy future where electricity for all homes, buildings and transportation is powered by 100% clean, green renewable energy. It could be achieved in the next then years. It must be achieved in the next ten years. See the following video that explains how it will work.

http://www.naturallifenetwork.com/news_detail.cfm?news=103

watch the video here--it's inspiring. too bad nobody in power pays any attention. wonder why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p-UNk2kn-c








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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. oh yeah....the major point: GET RID of ALL the SUBSIDIES for nukes, coal, and oil, and other carbon
reliant energy sources

they would NOT be able to compete with renewables in a FAIR market
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. 500 gigs day, non peak.
104 nuclear plants generate 97 gigs, about 20.6% of US electrical demand.

DOE 20% from wind in 20 years program, calls for 300 gig of turbines, 33% capacity=100 gigs=20%

The price if wind power per kilowatt hour is cheaper than nukes, most geo thermal, solar PV, comparable to nat gas, and is anticipated to equal coals 3-4 cents KwHour, in a few years.

Atlantic wind Connection 350 mile long HVDC offshore backbone for wind

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1002733/-Atlantic-Wind-Connection,-350-mile,-7kMw-offshore-wind-project?showAll=yes&via=blog_694100

HVDC supergrid

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1001465/-Solar,-Wind,-HVDC-and-the-Smartgrid?showAll=yes&via=blog_694100
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. thanks for posting this, btw. one of the things that infuriates me most about the
democrats in power is their refusal to get behind a WPA-style approach to revamping our power grid and follow the German/Danish examples of changing over to renewables

can't imagine why that isn't happening; can you?

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I write about this at Kos for Keynesian Kossacks
We need to spend 10% of GDP on Job stim each year, for 5 yras

"can't imagine why that isn't happening; can you?"

I have some ideas, some of which borders on CT stuff, lets just say they are out of touch.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
29. 5 recs, thanks, gotta go for a haircut be back soon.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. 10.5% of GDP a year needs to be spent. Every year we don't, add .5% (for simple math).
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Totally agree, for 5 yrs
13 trillion dollar economy means 1.3 trillion to start.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Pretty much impossible politically speaking. Shame Polywell seems to be a dud. :(
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Dud, Ahh
They're getting ready for P-B11 runs late this yr, early 2012. They've been running WB-8 with LN2 cooling thru to this summer, and are now getting ready for making WB-8 into WB-8.1, the proton boron11 machine.

I havent looked for 2-3 weeks, havent heard bad news...since then.

You heard it was dud?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. Polywell still working towards PB-11 fusion
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Last time I was there the big guys who seemed to know things were disenchanted.
There are "others" over there who will drink any coolaid and who will believe it even if the government cancels the project (oh conspiracy it's a net energy producer but the world can't know, etc). I seem to recall icarus in particular being disillusioned. It could've changed since then, but I'm not holding my hopes out in any case.

It will be awesome if it works though!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Many of those people are border line nuts
One guy files a FOIA, I told him a FOIA to get documents from a corporation (EMC2) will be rejected wholly. FOIA's are for Government documents, the law itself does not apply to Corporations. He didnt get it, and is still talking about it. I entered a discussion about taxes, a guy told me he thought a 10% tax would be good, I told him China spent 10% of GDP on infrastructure..... he actually balked at that point, and he was the only one.

Unfortunately the polywell forum has become a safe haven for extreme right wingers engineer types, that are quite frankly good at engineering, and not so good at other things. IMHO this is why many go off on CT benders concerning polywell, is it a wonder that some of them are also self affirmed birthers?

There is a persons opinion, then there is the gov website. When the gov tracker site says a contract is 50% complete, and said contract was to build WB-8, test it with DD fuel (50%) mark), and then proceed to the the WB-8.1 phase, which is to use Pb-11 fuel, and then test, (this would signify 100% completion of the contract) and analyze). I for one, will disregard the opinion and proceed to the gov tracker web site.

I drive a Limo, last year I drove John Palms, pres of Board at Excelon, Dean of Physics at an Eastern college, PHd. I described Pollywell, he got all pumped up, real excited. " They get fusion with this machine?". I told him its was funded thru the ONR, he said he had 2 Navy Admirals on the Board he would ask about I posted the story at the forum, the first response was that I had just killed polywell. A week later Polywell appeared to still be up and running and all the doom sayers had vanished. Then in Nov we had reported first plasma with WB-8.

I could go on at some (more) extended length about the inability of many of those folks to remain grounded in a reality based world.
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Cool Logic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
36. Actually, I'm hopeful that we will have progressed beyond windmills and solar by then.
Hydrogen fuel cells, anti-matter, electro-magnetics,...have far more potential.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Plug in hybrids and EV cars will transition us to Fuel cells
weight, cost, and good battery tech will keep fuel cells off the road for 15-20 yrs. Fusion before anti matter. See Polywell fusion, proton Boron11 aneutronic fuel.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'll tell ya how
You put one of those windmills in front of flush limbaugh's mic. That fucker blows enough hot air to power 20 cities. And if he really doesn't want to be part of a ,gasp, "green" solution he'll shut up, so it's win-win! :silly:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. AS the owner of a Lake Placid BLue Fender Strat, I whole heartedly endorse this
proposal........

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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Oh I love that shade of blue
My boss has a strat the same color :)
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Fender Blues Jr tube amp
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 08:09 PM by FogerRox
Shure mic on a stand right in front.... mix the feedback in with a Morely optical Pedal. 5 milli second dig delay, hint of phase shift. POW, its 1969 again....

BIllm from the Fender board mods these amps, takes 15 watts, turn them into 25 watts, with clear uppers at the top harmonic, and great sound down low off the nut. More sonic girth......The Stock amp has a nice smokey midrange, but does not excell on the low and highs. Wanna get it modded, but the fooking economy sux.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. I hear ya about the economy
Those are great little amps to mod, I've heard some that sound amazing.

I'm working on an reall oddball with the engineer at the tv station where I work, he's an amazing electronics guy and helps me with amps etc.
A friend of mine gave me a tube amp out of a 1955 seeburg jukebox. We cleaned it up and hooked it up to a Marshall 1x12 cabinet today. It's unbelievable, a 25watt class A amp with 2-6L6 power tubes. I've never heard anything quite like it :D
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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
41. I don't believe that is a realistic goal.
We don't have the technology to support that much intermittent generation on the grid. Too much of it and the grid becomes unstable - BPA is having problems with that in the Columbia River Valley now and is ordering some wind generators to shut down at times. What is needed is a commercially viable storage technology to smooth out the variability and allow energy to be delivered when the wind is not blowing or when the sun is not shining.

In my opinion, 20% - 25% is more realistic.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. You skipped something, BPA has no good way t get the ppwer to where its needed, as far as I can
tell they do not have a HVDC backbone to more the power.

thats stupid. Very stupid, and additionally the BPA claims its for the Salmon...... HVDC power does not get unstable. We do have the technology, but BPA doesnt have the technology, sounds like they are run for shit as a company.


http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-05-northwest-power-surplus-halt-energy.html

http://greeneconomypost.com/wind-turbines-shut-pacific-northwest-15566.htm

http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26582418-41/power-bonneville-wind-salmon-fish.html.csp

http://www.nawindpower.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.8280

And the winner is.... the fish caused the wind farm to go idle.........
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. What makes matters worse, you might have an issue telling the truth about the salmon
I have to ask you if you read the title of the OP

"How do we get to 20% of electricity from wind in 20 years.

then you say


"I don't believe that is a realistic goal........ In my opinion, 20% - 25% is more realistic."

If that is all the effort you are capable of putting out, I would suggest to you the possibility of exploring other avenues.
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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Time is an issue sometimes
Hopefully, Ikll be able to get into more detail later.
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. By cutting energy use by 20%
...
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shinyhead Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
46. Cut the middlemen out entirely
Look at various distributed systems, such as some of the solar concentrator fired stirling generators, smaller wind farms, photo voltaic, geo-thermal, micro-hydro, etc. Find places all over the country and determine which methods make sense for the environment there and put out bids for design and construction. Kind of like DARPA meets the TVA meets WPA.

Go ahead and buy some land and hire locals to build them (run a variety of designs so you can field test things). THATS shovel ready. They grid tie to the local utilities and get payback for power generated to offset the cost and you have people employed running and maintaining them. As designs improve... update the bad designs. Good designs get franchised so to speak so those who work to make better systems will reap the rewards.

Employs people directly in building and running them, offsets utility bills locally and moves to a more distributed power generation scheme which is good for national security by making our infrastructure more spread out and it would help reduce dependence on foreign oil and such.

Won't happen, big energy corporations will fight it to death and it would never make it out of committee, but it is probably the only way to start moving to alternatives on a large scale while directly helping the employment issues we face. Oil prices just dropped so cut those subsidies and channel it to this.

Yes, it would be inefficient to start, but with so many being built, innovation and competition to build good designs would spur real development.

Forget incentives.. this becomes a cash cow where big corporations pretend to research, get grants and good PR while ensuring that their REAL profit centers (oil, coal, etc) are not threatened. JUST BUILD THEM!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Let me show you the state of the industry in the US
Bob Mitchell wants to install a 5 billion dollar HVDC trunkline... just to attract wind developers. This is the state of the business today

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1002733/-Atlantic-Wind-Connection,-350-mile,-7kMw-offshore-wind-project?showAll=yes&via=blog_694100

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1001465/-Solar,-Wind,-HVDC-and-the-Smartgrid

Wind is already cheaper than everything else other than nat gas and coal, in 2008 the US installed more wind than any other country including China. 8300MW.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
54. Move to Denmark.....
Edited on Wed Aug-10-11 06:48 AM by marmar
:)

Although I think they're already at 20 percent.



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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. wiki says 19%, yeah they have taken the lead in %, not annual installed MW
the US installed the most wind in 2008, 8300 Mw, more than any other country. This Project, AWC will nearly double that

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1002733/-Atlantic-Wind-Connection,-350-mile,-7kMw-offshore-wind-project?showAll=yes&via=blog_694100
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