There is no "middle class". There's a "working class" and an "owner class".

[Scuba]

In my opinion, these are the two labels the left should try to propagate.

[shinyhead]

1. psh, worse then that

People are becoming nothing more then demographic groups to be marketed to.

[baldguy]

2. Cattle

And what do owners do with cattle?

[Island Blue]

3. By "owner class" you mean they own those of us

in the "working class", right? That's sure as hell how it feels.

[blindpig]

4. Marx 101.

Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm

As relevant as ever.

k&r

[Javaman]

11. won't happen here...

people are openly criticizing the riots in England. Which are being driven by the poor working class.

Yet are being described as thugs and murderers right here on DU.

revolutions and uprisings are messy. people conveniently forget that.

we have forgotten our own history.

there are people who honestly believe that no civilians were killed via revenge and class warfare in the revolutionary and civil wars.

I just find it amusing and fascinating that while the same crap is going on in many a middle eastern nation at this very moment, it's only the brits who get criticized for it.

the bubble of media propaganda.

[blindpig]

21. Americans are not as 'exceptional' as some would have us...

believe. While it is true that we are the most propagandized people on earth we are subject to the needs and pressures as any other workers. The 'austerity' which is lighting up the cities of Europe is gonna be here for real when the suckfish in DC get done. We will do what we gotta and hopefully it will be in a more organized manner, what's going on in Britain, while justified is not in any way productive other than to put some fear in the ruling class.

[Javaman]

24. Very rarely is ever frustration and anger productive.

but given the set of circumstances that have erupted in England, it appears as if a leaderless response has occurred.

Could that happen here? sure. Will it happen here? Maybe.

I read an awful lot of history, probably too much. I look at Russia around the time of Ivan the Terrible. Ivan got the nation tied up in one fight after another, all the while claiming that it was gods work. He destroyed an emerging middle class (of the time) leaving nothing but poverty, destitution and fear in his wake before he finally got offed.


That mentality of futility in the face of overwhelming state authority prevailed for centuries until the Russian revolution. Don't get me wrong, there were moments in Russia's history of amazing achievement and advance, but the plight of the poor and the feudal middle class remained the same. One of the belief that it's useless to rebel in the face of certain death.

It was only when the people had zero to lose when the state was taking so much from them to support the wealthy royal do-nothing class that the people via a popular figure rose up.

However, then came Stalin who drove them back down.

The present state of Russia and its future is still yet to be determined. The people have risen out of their collective oppression and are stretching the spirits. How long that will last is yet to be seen.

What am I leading to? (sorry for the long windedness) The American people are entering into this complacency in the face of state control. We not only have completely forgotten what has made us into a nation, but have accepted the fact that our ever changing rights and freedoms are now impossible to redeem out of fear for our own safety from outside invisible forces. Forces the government needs to control us.

However, I do believe that there are segments of our society, right, wrong or just plain stupid, who will fight back. Will that fighting back initially be based in a cause or will it be based in frustration and anger? I think we know the answer to that. The million dollar question is: will it be allowed to go on long enough to be able to coalesce into an actual faction with a leader?

The only difference between what is happening in England and what happens in a revolutions is actually pretty simple: the rioters haven't listed demands for change and have yet to have a unifying voice under a leader.

And frankly, if neither one of those two things happens within the next short period of time, the protests, riots, etc will collapse. The rioters will be relegated to the dust bin of history and labeled as thugs and murderers out for their own jollies.

The media controls it all, but nothing is more sexy to the media that some charismatic leader, right wrong or indifferent, of a "rebellion" to bring in viewers.

So until either a leader or a list emerges, the popular meme will be the rioters are thugs and murderers, until it changes and the media sees opportunity.

[blindpig]

25. Rather a vanguard party than a leader.

Terrible mistake to put hope in one leader, one personality, what did that get the American people?

What made the difference in Russia was the Bolsheviks, who had discipline, organization and a program. That is how a revolution succeeds. Otherwise it is an outburst of frustration which will be crushed with no advancement of the cause. That Lenin was superb leader had as much to do with the Party and Marxist theory as his personal ability.

The understanding of Stalin and those years is massively distorted in this country, you are a historian, go to the source material. The Russian people are again subject to the dictatorship of capitalism and a significant portion yearn for 'the good old days'. We shall see.

[Javaman]

26. Yes, Vanguard party is more apt.

I think that's what I sort of meant by a leader, but wasn't as concise.

Under Stalin the state of the gulag was far worse then under the czar. Read Gulag Archipelago.

Stalin during his purges of the 1930's and the pogroms of the same era, did more to the Russian citizens psyche in it's lasting effects than anything else perhaps other than article 58.

The people of the Ukraine who suffered the most under Stalins rule had the Hobbsian choice of either starving under Stalin or working as slaves under the Germans in WWII.

Stalin in no way embraced the concepts or ideas of either Marx or Lenin.

Whether it's the dictatorship of capitalism or the dictatorship of a, well, dictator, both of which are different sides of the same coin, the future of Russia still has to be decided.

[blindpig]

27. Incoming pm. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Incoming PM

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. You got a PM

[hifiguy]

49. +1000

And then some. Go back and read "Capital." Marx's predictions are proven more true every day. Every fucking day.

[blindpig]

52. Fresh as today's papers... n/t

[robcon]

5. Bullshit. I'm in the middle class.

Homeowner, comfortable living, able to take good vacations, etc.

[Silent3]

6. Don't say that too loudly

Some people around here will take that to mean that you're the enemy, and a perfectly good candidate for a mob to rightfully burn your house down -- whether you or your family are inside or not at the time.

[Javaman]

12. Do you live off your investments or do you work for a living? nt

[robcon]

29. I don't live off my investments, but I will turn my 401K into an annuity...

when I retire.

[Javaman]

47. So you work for a living, right? nt

[robcon]

65. You're a genius for figuring that out, Javaman

n/t

[Javaman]

68. then you are a member of the fucking working class, genius. nt

oh and one more thing, fuck you.

[TBF]

17. There are still a few - but it is rapidly decreasing.

When you look at the gap between rich and poor, and those who may be homeowners but are mortgaged to the hilt, the number of foreclosures, the unemployment rate - you've got to admit that things are pretty precarious for most.

For those who like capitalism and want to see the middle-class lifestyle for your children you'd better think about how that can realistically happen - and it's going to involve taxing the rich. Those of us who still have a little money are likely in that position because of inheritance (parents, grandparents who lived during the 40s-80s and were able to put away a little savings).

Personally I'd like to see an economic system that puts people and the earth over profits. Capitalism is killing most of us and certainly poisoning our planet.

[deutsey]

18. I'm from the working poor and have managed to make it into the middle class

I'm very thankful for the opportunities I've had and still have (along with some good luck and unforseen blessings along the way).

However, we have had some tough times in the past few years as well, struggling to hold on to the "middle class" designation...I can see an accident or an illness or a job loss sinking us fast.

I think too many people are on the same shaky ground. Kind of like waiting for the sword of Damocles to drop.

[yeswecanandwedid]

59. I agree with this.. NT

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Well, let's see how long that lasts.......

because whatever you've got, they WILL eventually try to take, one way or another.

[Davis_X_Machina]

7. Class is a meaningless construct...

...in a country where how often you go to church, and what race you are, are better predictors of how you vote than how much you earn.

The United States is the Saudi Arabia of false consciousness -- world's largest producer of bright shiny objects, world's largest proven reserves.

Class consciousness here will come in around the same time as the metric system.

[Bragi]

10. How you vote is not a predictor of class

The phenomenon of American workers voting against their objective self-interests is well documented, so class is not predicted by voting patterns.

I think the OP makes a useful distinction. In the U.S, the "middle class" means "middle-of-the-pack income levels".

In political economy, middle class usually means those who own businesses that employ workers.

[Javaman]

13. as long as the american brain is continually baked in propaganda

fed to us by a corporate media, nothing will change.

[blindpig]

22. Wrong

When economic disparity is based on class then class is all important. The material means of our existence are always the bottom line. Voting got nothing to do with it.

[Davis_X_Machina]

23. "Every class struggle is a political struggle."

"...the class struggle becomes real, consistent and developed only when it embraces the sphere of politics."

V.I. Lenin, "Liberal and Marxist Conceptions of the Class Struggle", 1913

[socialist_n_TN]

33. Yep. And Marx ALWAYS interrelated economics

and politics. They are two sides of the same coin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. All political econmists did, he was the last one

the move to separate politics from economics started in the late 19 century. I could argue that Keynes understood that relationship though.

Chicago school they make a point to avoid it

[Terry in Austin]

66. Which class has most to gain by denying that class exists?

"Class" is a taboo topic in the US.

But our own version of the class system is alive and kicking, in name or not. There's some class consciousness for ya!

[guitar man]

8. Yep

This is that "ownership" society that W was talking about coming to fruition. I hope the fucking "owners" are happy :grr:

[drpepper67]

9. So, if you work for someone else and make a six figure income

Own two houses, a boat, two Harleys and take at least 3 vacations a year,

You're not "middle class" but working class?

Ok.....

[Javaman]

14. are you living off your investments? nt

[Scuba]

20. Yep, because you're still paying a higher tax rate than the owner class making 100 X what you do.n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. As webber would ask

are you working white collar job, or blue collar job? Serious, this is not about income, the middle class is a SOCIOLOGICAL construct, not an economic one.

[Raksha]

55. I think it's both--sociological and economic.

Or else these are two aspects to the concept "middle class." In this country we tend to focus way too much on the sociological aspect of it, because it's more flattering to our individual and collective egos to think of ourselves as "middle class" even when they just nailed the eviction notice to the doorpost. Advertising of course panders to that "middle class" false identification incessantly.

It's useful to take the self-flattering blinders of the "middle class" designation off occasionally and think of it in raw economic terms, regardless of tastes, education and lifestyle.

[Raksha]

54. I think that's exactly what it does mean.

You may be at the higher end of the working class--hell, you may be in the stratosphere of the working class, but you are still dependent on someone else for your livelihood. You are still subject to being fired or laid off. If that happens and you don't have enough stashed away to start a successful business or live off your investments, eventually you're going to have sell one of your two houses, the Harleys, etc. to have enough to live on. And you'd better hope there isn't a catastrophic illness in your immediate future either.

[coalition_unwilling]

15. Which class' interests does Obama support?

[Nye Bevan]

16. How about a family with median net worth, earning the median income?

Isn't that kind of the "middle"?

[hfojvt]

19. lots of retired people in this country

probably a hard sell to tell them they are working class.

Also, it's a little bit ridiculous to tell somebody making $50,000 a year that 'you have nothing to lose but your chains'. Because at $50,000 a year, they probably have a heck of a lot to lose. I make $13,000 a year and I have some things to lose, and I'd have more to lose if I had a family.

A lot of what I call 'rich' are not really 'owner class'.

[Starry Messenger]

28. k&r

[jimmyflint]

30. Many see China as a model to be implemented globally..

With the majority as slave class, and a minority of elite ruling class. Both the far right and the far left want this, that's why they both hate individual liberty,free speech,free press,private property,bearing arms, and on and on. The real disagreement between both sides is who gets to be in the ruling class.

[Kaleko]

43. Do you have any statistics backing up

your preposterous claims?

Even a single link would be welcome.

[jimmyflint]

46. If you can't find it on your own, then you don't want to see it.

[Kaleko]

48. IOW, you have nothing.

[jimmyflint]

60. LOL

You amuse me. I bet if you tried real hard you could do it.

[Kaleko]

62. Pretending to "laugh out loud" followed by snarky retorts

aimed at the person won't make your initial claims any more convincing.

Over and out.

[jimmyflint]

64. No, you really make me laugh,for reals.

Like your use of "over and out" also made me laugh for reals. You see, "over" means you are expecting a reply, and "out" means you are not expecting a reply.

Basically, over means you are waiting for a response, and out means you are already gone , so don't bother to reply.

Jimmy out.

[FreeJoe]

31. I find that these semantic debates aren't very useful

I've seen lots of threads here debating whether people are working class, middle class, labor, etc. I just don't get the point of them. They always oversimplify things. They never seem to be illuminating.

I look at my life and wonder what class I'm in? Does it change frequently? Does it matter?

Teen years - primarily parent supported and worked for wages
Twenties - started by working for wages. Quit my job and started my own company.
Thirties - shut down my company and went back to working for wages. Started investing.
Fourties - Continued to work for wages but getting increasing income from my investments.
Fifties - Plan to continue to work for wages and expect even more investment income. With child raising duties winding down, my wife may start or buy a company.
Sixties+ - Plan to live off of investment income and social security. May make extra money from working for wages or from owning a consultancy.

I don't feel like a member of an economic class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. That goes all the way back to Adamn Smith

workers and the term he used (deriving from the capital invested that has become religious fervor) Capitalists. (Of course he included a lot of people and the nuance had to wait for other Political Economists.

Anyhow middle class was defined by Webber to tell you about the white collar, professionals, doctors, lawyers engineers. It's been a neat propaganda trick to make all blue collar workers believe they are part of it.

Bat to Smith the cut was simple... worker\ capitalist, owner of the store, no matter how big or small.

[robcon]

37. Most Americans are middle class... comfortable, able to keep food on the table, etc.

That is one our country's strengths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. First not really

second it is not an economic definition but a sociological one, and unless most of the country is white collar, which is not...

As I said neat trick.

I have a fairly comfortable life, we are working class, Alas I am using the actual definition of what a middle class is...

[TBF]

45. If your definition of "comfortable" is keeping food on the table maybe -

throwing away all concepts of home ownership, health care, education, under and unemployment.

1 in 8 people rely on the services of "Feeding America" for food. Are you counting them in your "comfortable" assessment? http://feedingamerica.org/

[tawadi]

41. Pretty much

:-(

[taught_me_patience]

42. Please explain. I totally disagree with this statement

Not only am I middle class, but all of my friends and family are middle class too. There is a huge class of professionals making good money, buying real property, saving for retirement, and enjoying good lives.

[TBF]

44. There is no "huge" professional class "making good money" -

but I guess that depends upon what you consider "good money".

Here is a breakdown from 2007:



The bottom 80% controlling only 7% of the financial wealth in this country? That means the top 20% is controlling 93%, and the chart indicates that in fact the top 43% of wealth is controlled by 1% (that is nearly half the wealth in the country controlled by the top households).

Unless you are in that group, which is by no means "huge", I'm not sure I'm seeing the "good money" you write about.

[Hydra]

50. I've often argued this

Politicians love to talk about "The Middle Class" as if it actually exists.

The Upper Middle Class has become what we would have called the middle calls back in the day. Doctors, lawyers, etc. The people who have to work for a living but aren't struggling.

Even they have more in common with the bottom 80% than the top though. They still HAVE to work. The Owners have everyone do everything for them, including paying all of the people in congress and the media to pull the wool over our eyes.

Nobility and Royalty, disguised as merit. Older than dirt.

[Scuba]

56. This is exactly where I was going....

...the "owner class" doesn't work at all. They even have their money managed for them.


If you have your own business, and are putting in your hours to make it successful, you're "working class". If you stop working, you starve.

The chart another poster added above sums it up nicely.

[WCGreen]

51. The working class, which, of course I assume, does includes the working poor...

But you forgot about our own form of untouchable, the people who have fallen completely fallen off the grid...

[readmoreoften]

53. The idea that "unions" create a middle class is particularly egregious. Unions, by definition,

are for the working class. The middle class does exist, but the class between the owners and the workers are their legal council. Small owners like restauranteurs and fine jewelers and doctors with private practices are also part if this middle class/petit bourgeoisie. But the idea that a union worker is middle class because she makes 80k or that a teacher is middle class because he does intellectual labor males the term working class meaningless.

A worker is someone who doesn't own the infrastructure behind his or her own labor. They are dependent on the capitalist or the capitalist state. The petit bourgeois or "middle class" does own the means of production (private practice, small business) but they don't employee as many people as the capitalist or in some cases, any people. A petit bourgeois may be poorer at times than a worker, especially in a state where many union protections have been won.

[MzShantal]

57. You can thank

the ALEC:

The American Legislative Exchange Council was originally the brainchild of conservative activist and culture warrior Paul Weyrich, a onetime journalist who later coined the term �Moral Majority� for evangelist Jerry Falwell. Weyrich�s original vision was to bring together state legislators who were energized by such social issues as the Equal Rights Amendment and abortion rights and concerned about what they saw as an overbearing, over-regulating, and over-taxing government.

As Weyrich saw it, liberals had spent decades building up their own infrastructure of foundations, think tanks, and academicians; conservatives had not. And so he simply borrowed their techniques. �I always look at what the enemy is doing and, if they�re winning, copy it,� he told an interviewer at the time.

ALEC�s major benefactors have included:

Alcoholic Beverages
Coors Brewing Company
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States
Miller Brewing Company
Joseph E. Seagram & Sons, Inc.
Seagram North America

Automobiles
Avis Rent a Car
DaimlerChrysler Corporation
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Corporation

Banks/Financial Services
American General Financial Group
American Express Company
Bank of America
Community Financial Services Corporation
Credit Card Coalition
Credit Union National Association, Inc.
Fidelity Investments
Harris Trust & Savings Bank
Household International
LaSalle National Bank
J.P. Morgan & Company
Non-Bank Funds Transmitters Group

Criminal Justice
American Bail Corporation
Corrections Corporation of America
National Association of Bail Insurance Companies
Wackenhut Corrections

Energy Producers/Oil
American Petroleum Institute
Amoco Corporation
ARCO
BP America, Inc.
Caltex Petroleum
Chevron Corporation
ExxonMobil Corporation
Mobil Oil Corporation
Phillips Petroleum Company

Energy Producers/Other
American Electric Power Association
American Gas Association
Center for Energy and Economic Development
Commonwealth Edison Company
Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Inc.
Edison Electric Institute
Enron Corporation
Independent Power Producers of New York
Koch Industries, Inc.
Mid-American Energy Company
Natural Gas Supply Association
PG&E Corporation/PG&E National Energy Group
U.S. Generating Company

Health Care
American Physical Therapy Association
Baxter Healthcare Corporation

Insurance
Alliance of American Insurers
Allstate Insurance Company
American Council of Life Insurance
American Insurance Association
Blue Cross and Blue Shield Corporation
Coalition for Asbestos Justice. (This organization
was formed in October 2000 to �explore new
judicial approaches to asbestos litigation.� Its
members include ACE-USA, Chubb & Son,
CNA service mark companies, Fireman�s
Fund Insurance Company, Hartford
Financial Services Group, Inc., Kemper
Insurance Companies, Liberty Mutual
Insurance Group, and St. Paul Fire and
Marine Insurance Company. Counsel to the
coalition is Victor E. Schwartz of the law
firm of Crowell & Moring in Washington,
D.C., a longtime ALEC ally.)
Fortis Health
GEICO
Golden Rule Insurance Company
Guarantee Trust Life Insurance
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company
National Association of Independent Insurers
Nationwide Insurance/National Financial
State Farm Insurance Companies
Wausau Insurance Companies
Zurich Insurance

Law/Lobbying
Skelding, Labasky, Corry, Hauser, Metz & Daws
Wilson, Elser, Moskowitz, Edelman & Dicker

Manufacturing

American Plastics Council
Archer Daniels Midland Corporation
AutoZone, Inc. (aftermarket automotive parts)
Cargill, Inc.
Caterpillar, Inc.
Chlorine Chemistry Council
Deere & Company
Fruit of the Loom
Grocery Manufacturers of America
Inland Steel Industries, Inc.
International Game Technology
International Paper
Johnson & Johnson
Keystone Automotive Industries
Motorola, Inc.
Procter & Gamble
Sara Lee Corporation

Media

American Lawyer Media, Inc.
R.R. Donnelly & Sons Company
Primedia, Inc.
The Washington Times

Pharmaceuticals

Abbott Laboratories
Aventis Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
Bayer Corporation
Eli Lilly & Company
GlaxoSmithKline
Glaxo Wellcome, Inc.
Hoffman-LaRoche, Inc.
Merck & Company, Inc.
Pfizer, Inc.
Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of
America (PhRMA)
Pharmacia Corporation
Rhone-Poulenc Rorer, Inc.
Schering-Plough Corporation
Smith, Kline & French
WYETH, a division of American Home
Products Corporation

Restaurants

McDonald�s Corporation
Wendy�s International, Inc.

Technology

America Online
Americans for Technology Leadership
Intel Corporation
KeySpan
Microsoft Corporation
TechCentralStation.com

Telecommunications

AT&T
Ameritech
BellSouth Telecommunications, Inc.
GTE Corporation
MCI
National Cable and Telecommunications Association
SBC Communications, Inc.
Sprint
UST Public Affairs, Inc.
Verizon Communications, Inc.

Tobacco

Cigar Association of America, Inc.
Lorillard Tobacco Company
Philip Morris Management Corporation
R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company
Smokeless Tobacco Council

Transportation

Air Transport Association of America
American Trucking Association
The Boeing Company
United Airlines
United Parcel Service

Other

Amway Corporation
Cabot Sedgewick
Cendant Corporation
Corrections Corporation of America
Dresser Industries
Federated Department Stores
International Gold Corporation
Mary Kay Cosmetics
Microsoft Corporation
Newmont Mining Corporation
Quaker Oats
Sears, Roebuck & Company
Service Corporation International
Taxpayers Network, Inc.
Turner Construction
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.

Organizations/Foundations

Adolph Coors Foundation
Ameritech Foundation
Bell & Howell Foundation
Carthage Foundation
Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation
ELW Foundation
Grocery Manufacturers of America
Heartland Institute of Chicago
The Heritage Foundation
Iowans for Tax Relief
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation of Milwaukee
National Pork Producers Association
National Rifle Association
Olin Foundation
Roe Foundation
Scaiffe Foundation
Shell Oil Company Foundation
Smith Richardson Foundation
Steel Recycling Institute
Tax Education Support Organization
Texas Educational Foundation
UPS Foundation

[Raksha]

63. Thank you for this information, MzShantal.

The more exposure ALEC gets, the better for the future of democracy in America.

And welcome to DU! :toast:

[JI7]

58. you know there are many working class and poor who can also be considered owner class

i'm not sure what you mean by owner class. but based on some threads people assume just because someone might have a business they are better off than those who don't have a business or even unemployed.

many small business owners struggle and owe money. if they make anyuthing it just goes to paying down debt and sometimes only the interest rate. they hire people also which is part of the cost of doing business.

so i'm not sure what you really mean but things aren't so black/white.

[Hydra]

61. Missed the meat of this

If you have to work, you are in the working class. If you own a business and have to show up every day and do things to keep the ship afloat, you're a worker.

If you can stay at home, do what you want and have other people work for you and not worry if it blows up, you're in the ownership class.

As you can probably guess, the latter group is FAR smaller than the former.

[Blue_Tires]

67. My uncle put it a different way: "Screwer and screwee"