How rioting brought UK youth together..

[HipChick]

I think this is the fairest report yet, I've seen that describes the situation in the UK, and not the version the RW are trying to paint..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part


Anyone who has witnessed the disturbances up close will know there is no simple answer to the question: who are the rioters? Attempts to use simple categorisations to describe the looters belies the complex make-up of those who have been participating.

Some who have been victims of the looting resent attempts to rationalise or give meaning to what they perceive as the mindless thuggery of an "underclass". Others want an explanation of who has been taking part – and why.

In the broadest sense, most of those involved have been young men from poor areas. But the generalisation cannot go much further than that. It can't be said that they are largely from one racial group. Both young men and women have joined in.

...
But there was no rush; the group knew from experience that police would hold back for the time being. "Keep an eye on the Feds, man," said one youth.

...
I've seen Turkish boys, I've seen Asian boys, I've seen grown white men," he said. "They're all out there taking part." He recognised an element of opportunism in the mass looting but said an underlying cause was that many young people felt "trapped in the system". "They're disconnected from the community and they just don't care," he said.

In some senses the rioting has been unifying a cross-section of deprived young men who identify with each other, he added

[JVS]

1. Who'd have thought that Fight Club got it wrong and that they all just wanted to loot side by side.

[HipChick]

4. I think you missed the point of the article...

[JVS]

6. I'm reading now.

[malaise]

2. I just finished reading that article

Must read - rec

[marmar]

3. Yep. But many on DU would like to dismiss it exclusively as thuggish looting......

...... to avoid dealing with the much more complex underlying issues.

[Darth_Kitten]

11. It is thuggish looting....

and why should the world have any regard or respect for them when they are wrecking the lives of innocent people?

They can look inside themselves and figure out the "complex, underlying" issues.

[Obamanaut]

15. When thugs (of any race, color, creed, age, or national origin) are

taking stuff that doesn't belong to them under the cover of rioting and destruction of other people's property - it IS thugish looting. There is no way to sugar coat it.

[Upton]

16. It's thuggish looting alright..

and it baffles me why some here at DU are celebrating criminal behavior that is hurting innocent victims..

[marmar]

19. Nobody is celebrating criminal behavior.......

..... just noting that the underlying causes are a lot more complex. But clearly some people can't or won't try to understand that.

[Obamanaut]

23. I can just imagine a shop-owner, watching his livlihood go up in flames or out

the broken windows wondering to himself "What might be the underlying cause for that behavior, which may to some seem thugish?"

Or the widow watching her car burn down to the rims.

[flamingdem]

33. I understand but just read that 3 were rammed by a car intentionally and died

unforgivable.

[malaise]

17. Let them

They don't influence how I try to understand different events. I hate looting and the destruction of property but it is rarely as simple as some would like to believe.

[LeftishBrit]

41. It's not exclusively anything

There is a lot of frustration exploding in an undirected way; and there are also people taking advantage of the situation to rob. And let's not forget that the 'copycat' instinct can be pretty strong in itself, especially among younger people.

FWIW, this sort of thing was predicted on the UK forum when the cuts were announced a year ago. When people feel hopeless about their future, they can explode, not always at the people actually responsible for their situation. When the political leaders' aim in life is to 'shrink the state', they can't expect to be selective about what aspects of the state end up shrinking.

But that doesn't mean that plenty of thuggish looting isn't *also* involved.

[hifiguy]

48. You win the thread, LB.

"When people feel hopeless about their future, they can explode, not always at the people actually responsible for their situation."

Amen to that.

[Blue_Tires]

54. Agreed...The biggest surprise to me is it seems every socio-economic group

has participated in the madness to some degree, and for every different person, there is a different motivation for doing so (no two interviews I've heard so far are anywhere near alike). That's why the media has had such trouble putting an all-encompassing label on the whole thing so far...

Ironically, I haven't heard the first rioter mention "justice" or "Mark Duggan" -- Remember him??

[HipChick]

57. Many people were predicting that this would kick-off after all the cuts

The Govt had to be blind,deaf and dumb not to see this coming...but that's the tories for you

[sabrina 1]

5. Good article, thank you for posting.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Youth ?

First up at Highgate Magistrates this morning was a 31 year old teacher.

1132:

BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

May soon read as ex-teacher.

Depending on charges many have been denied bail and are being held in custody. Most seem to have been banking on lenient sentences for first time offences at The Magistrates. Massive fail - most have been referred over to Wood Green Crown Court which can hand out up to 10 years for burglary as opposed to 6 months at The Magistrates. The Magistrates Court ran all night or at least until about 5.30am this morning such is the load.

Whilst the groups you mentioned may be taking part it doesn't follow that they are taking part together.

[HipChick]

9. In the sense of class/racial demographics..

that's what the article is pointing out..a lot of media is painting this as one thing,when its actually the other

[Darth_Kitten]

8. And I see that rioting, destroying, etc will get the world on their side?

Just spoiled, entitled young men tossing a huge tantrum. Get real, the world doesn't owe you anything, guys.

[HipChick]

10. Spoiled, Entitled? Hardly...

[Darth_Kitten]

13. Yes, exactly.

The boys need to grow up.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darth_Kitten]

20. Yes, they are, aren't they?

Reported.

[Javaman]

24. And the corporate controlled media has who's interest in mind? nt

[JVS]

18. You think they care if you're on their side? What good will you being on their side do them?

[Darth_Kitten]

21. Uh...they wanted people's attention?

And they got it? :shrug:

It's rather amazing how so many are taking the sides of looters.

[LeftishBrit]

44. 'Spoiled and entitled?' Most of them are neither of these things unless you use the word 'spoiled'

to mean 'warped'.

Most of them don't think that world 'owes' them anything, and also don't think that they 'owe' the world anything. They don't feel part of mainstream society. Of course, this is a generalization and a lot of people joined the looting for all kinds of reasons. But they hardly live in the lap of luxury.

None of which is an excuse for the violence or the looting; but is to some extent an explanation.

P.S. I don't defend this violence, and I think that those who do justify it here are at a safe enough distance not to have to worry about being injured or robbed or their friends being injured or robbed, and that affects their views! (Thank the lord my mother doesn't live in London any more...) It's easy to cheer on violence from 3000 miles away, to be frank. But that doesn't mean that most of the people involved - whether as rioters or victims - are 'entitled' types who've had it easy. There's a tendency for the right-wing British press (from long before this happened) to imply that the welfare state creates a sense of 'entitlement' and shoudl therefore be shrunk, and this may be at the back of some of the press remarks.

[Upton]

12. Brought together?

Yeah, I guess you could say so. Thugs and criminals in situations such as this usually prefer to run in packs....

[Darth_Kitten]

22. Oh, be careful, you are supposed to have compassion for their cause.

Whatever their cause is. :sarcasm:

[Broderick]

40. Yeah what is the cause?

Someone had a shootout with the police, a criminal and dies in the battle? Or is it economic struggle, so lets torch our neighborhoods and kill our neighbors, ransack our neighborhood small businesses? What is the cause?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

47. what shootout, didn't the news recently state that the bullet in the radio was police issue?

and only 2 bullets was fired, both by the police....so how is that a shootout?

[Broderick]

50. I don't know - I hear differently

The officer was shot at.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

51. Oh, there was a bullet in the radio, its just that it was a bullet from a police gun

to use 3 different sources

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904480904576498540000034196.html

The Independent Police Complaints Commission, an oversight group probing the matter, said Tuesday night there was no evidence so far that Mr. Duggan fired at police before being shot fatally in the chest by an officer in North London last week.

Mr. Duggan died Thursday in an incident that began when police officers stopped a silver minivan taxi carrying Mr. Duggan in London's Tottenham neighborhood intending to arrest him, for reasons not yet clear. Soon after, a police officer from the unit, which investigates illegal gun crime, fired two shots that landed in Mr. Duggan's bicep and chest. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Police recovered an illegal handgun from the car, initially raising questions about whether Mr. Duggan had fired on one of the officers. Also raising questions was the fact that a police officer's hand-held radio was struck by a bullet. But that later turned out to be from a bullet from another police officer's gun.

"At this stage there is no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired during the incident," the IPCC said in a statement Tuesday. Forensics experts are carrying out more tests, but they may not be able to say for sure whether the illegal handgun was fired, the IPCC said. It is also conducting a broader probe into the incident.

----

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

Doubts have emerged over whether Mark Duggan, whose death at the hands of police sparked the weekend's Tottenham riots, was killed during an exchange of fire .

The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday's incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.

Initial reports from the IPCC were that during an apparent exchange of fire police officers from C019 fired two shots and Duggan died at the scene. The suggestion was that officers could have come under fire from a minicab carrying Duggan. Much of this assumption came from the fact that a bullet had lodged in a police radio worn by an officer at the scene – raising speculation he might have been fired at from the vehicle. A non-police issue handgun was also recovered at the scene where Duggan was shot dead in Ferry Road.

The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.

--
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ipcc-man-shot-police-did-not-open-fire-164401662.html

The victim of a police shooting may not have fired at officers before he was killed, according to a report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

An IPCC ballistics report said there was "no evidence" that a handgun found near where Mark Duggan was shot by armed officers had been used.

His death came after two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer, investigations show.

The initial results confirmed reports that a bullet found lodged in a police radio at the scene was police issue.

[Broderick]

53. ok

It sure gives the right to riot, destroy homes and vehicles in the neighborhood and loot neighborhood stores then.

Have at it folks. Means to an end. What is the end?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

55. the overall protests are valid, that there are a section that want to loot and riot

is beyond what the original protesters wanted

[pintobean]

25. Diversity amongst thieves

and arsonists. How quaint.

[Chorophyll]

27. Brings a tear to my eye.

Last time huge riots took place in Britain it was because Black youth were clashing with a racist police force.

This time? Well, no one can quite put their finger on the cause but at least white kids got in on the action! Progress has been made, right? Solidarity!

[robcon]

26. The rioting has not brought them together. It's each man for himself in stealing and arson.

The thrill of stealing and getting away with it.

The thrill of watching a fire burn.

[Bragi]

28. MSM desparately trying to strip the riots of all context

It's clear that the MSM/right-wing meme around the riots is that it is just garden variety criminality, and there is no social or political "meaning" or "context" in which the riots need to be understood.

We are supposed to ignore the reality that the participants are primarily a nihilistic underclass of marginalized youths who society has written off.

We are supposed to pretend that because they have not articulated any conventional political agenda, that there is no political context to what they are doing.

There is nothing surprising about this meme. The accusation of "pure criminality" is what dominant classes always hurl in situations of unrest.

What is a bit surprising is that it appears that the vast majority of DUers are happy to go along with this meme, and to beat the law-and-order drum ever so loudly and proudly.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to encourage violence. I just don't think it wise to try to understand it by divorcing it from the social political context in which it is happening.

[malaise]

29. Mindless consumerism by any means necessary

best describes the dominant paradigm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/10/riots-righteous-game-blame?intcmp=239
<snip>
What we are seeing here, by general consent, is an urban underclass with little or no sense of a stake in society, few ties to their local communities or, very probably to each other in their feral, fragmented families. "Darren, where did you get those three new bikes?" "Shurrup, mum, I'm listening to me new iPhone."

Liberals can legitimately point to their marginalisation in the workforce and at school – some of these kids can barely speak proper English – in part the consequences of globalising economic forces and the evaporation of low-skilled jobs. Social conservatives can point to the collapse of family and discipline, happily unaware that capitalism can be pretty devastating to all but the strongest families, both in terms of depressed wage rates and raised expectations.

Both sides can thus attack the kind of mindless consumerism whereby the possession of flash T-shirts or trainers confirm status. But the issue is complicated. Zoe Williams talks to some smart people on both sides of the argument here with no firm conclusions (very wise) though Simon Jenkins makes a more devastating point when he complains that in most countries – not Britain – local civic and community leaders would be at the forefront of response: not national ones. Local government is one of Simon's fields of expertise.

London is the exception in having high-profile leadership. Yet when I heard Mayor Boris on Radio 4's Today programme spluttering about a generation raised with "an endless sense of entitlement" I spluttered too. I know enough Johnsons to know that they too have a strong sense of entitlement – Dad, Stanley's amusing memoirs reek with entitlement – because they are clever and well-connected.

Was not Boris a member of the restaurant-trashing Bullingdon Club? Is he not a feckless, shameless home-breaker? Would you want your children to see him as a role model any more than you would Piers Morgan or John Terry? No.

[TheBigotBasher]

52. A far better article to point to.

The right will use this as a way to remove liberties and the further right are using this as a way to re-introduce guns into a Country that DOES NOT FUCKING WNAT THEM.

The left points to some social battle that was not there, except in the original peaceful vigil of the family of a man, who before the riots would have got serious attention paid to his execution. Now his family will be deprived of that.

Instead we get people burning the poor out of their homes, most of whom will not be insured. We get the poor being burnt out of jobs. We get people using whatever reason to escalate muggings, to escalate gay bashing, to escalate outright violence against not just companies but individuals.

Poverty fucking hurts and hurts bad but these idiots if they were wanting to hit it to the man were 10 minutes away from the "Mother of Parliaments" and fice minutes away from the home of world banking.

[HipChick]

31. Media manipulation at it's best...and that's why it will continue to occur

Because the underlying problems will continue to occur

[hack89]

30. Now they can be together in prison cells. nt

[flamingdem]

32. This is like the L.A. Riots of 1993, whites joined in to get goods and the news

had them perusing the expensive wines and checking labels before looting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. By current logic, the Guardian gets it

Therefore condones it... Called poisoning the well by the way.

[socialshockwave]

35. These youth in no way represent me.

I'm young(19) and I think this is utterly despicable. The army should be there, curfew should be instituted and any and all who fail to stop looting or assaulting people or committing illegal acts should be either arrested or shot on sight.

And to those of you on DU who defend these fuckers, you're just as bad as Teabaggers advocating violence against the President.

[seabeyond]

38. the clean up video shows community of young going out to clean up rioters mess

saying exactly what you say. they, too, dont want to be associated with those looting.

[socialshockwave]

39. Oh I know. And good on 'em. n/t

[AngryOldDem]

36. I'm not going to praise violent and destructive acts by a group of thugs.

No matter how you rationalize it, that's what they are -- thugs who are destroying the homes and livelihoods of their neighbors for nothing more than for the thrill of it (or, probably more to the point, for the hell of it). Whatever "cause" they're championing, they're setting it back by decades.

[seabeyond]

37. did you see the clean up video? it was more youths coming together to clean up after rioters

declaring that the rioters was a small group and not representative of the larger youth community. i think a lot of youth would be bothered being joined with criminals.

[LeftishBrit]

46. Good for them!

And I don't think the article was implying that all or most young people are criminals or outside society or involved in riots (I know very many who are not), but simply that these riots united some disaffected young people from a variety of backgrounds. I think the main point was in fact that these are *not* race riots in the way presented in some of the press.

I think and hope that there are still far more young people like those who cleaned up, than those who rioted.

[LeftishBrit]

42. Thanks for this

There has been a tendency in some of the RW press to represent this as all down to young black men, intentionally or unintentionally whipping up a fair bit of racism (see the comments sections in the RW papers!). It's much broader than that, as this article points out.

'He recognised an element of opportunism in the mass looting but said an underlying cause was that many young people felt "trapped in the system". "They're disconnected from the community and they just don't care," he said.'

Very sadly true.

[Vehl]

43. These rioters belong in jail

Their behavior cannot be excused as some 'protest" against "big money" when the people they are hurting the most are middle class/poor people who are in the same boat as the "protestors".

These are a bunch of socially irresponsible hooligans.

[LeftishBrit]

45. And will go there.

But there will be more of the same unless some of the causes are addressed.

And unless there are more police on the beat - one of the few things that left and right agree on is that the drastic cuts in policing helped this to develop and spread.

[hifiguy]

49. When the aristocracy, financial or hereditary, steals everyone blind

they are touted as heroes of capitalism and examples for us all. When the proles get pissed off, however inchoately, enough to rise up against that aristocracy, tanks roll in the streets. Twas ever thus.

[Nye Bevan]

56. How is burning down the local family-owned grocery store "rising up against the aristocracy"? (nt)