Is it time to use the F word (fascism) or not yet?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Here is a story that might get your curiosity going...

GOP lawmaker has Democrats’ cameras seized at town hall
Posted on 08.24.11
By David Edwards
Categories: Activism, Featured
Security guards seized the cameras and cell phones of several Democrats at a “town hall” meeting featuring Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) Monday.

While media organizations were allowed to record the event, a security guard collected recoding devices from certain audience members “to protect the privacy of constituents,” according to a Chabot spokesman.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/08/gop-lawmaker-has-democrats-cameras-seized-at-town-hall/

Reaching for that historian hat...

Yes this happened in GERMANY... yes the comparisons are appropriate. There is more, it did not happen by '36, it started happening earlier than that. It was the beginning of the closing of the society. These closings have steps, and sadly the parallels between the SDP response and the Democratic Response to shit like this does not give me a warm fuzzy.

So yes, it is time to use the F word... and it is time to wake up... we are there.

[white_wolf]

1. At the very least proto-fascists.

They are not as open as the neo-Nazis, though I'm thinking the GOP will happily use them as food soldiers if the time comes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. That is pretty open fascism

and the guards were your foot soldiers. So what if they are not the SA?

[Fuddnik]

3. Long past time.

In his awesome book, "Democracy Incorporated, Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism" He explains exactly how it is happening, and why you don't need jack-booted brownshirts to achieve it or keep it going.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yep in my list of all time favorite books

[truedelphi]

5. Jessie Ventura has been saying this for a while.

He has tried to bring about a lawsuit against TSA for their infractions of his civil liberties, but that is no longer possible. Civil liberties don't exist here, for the average person. Civil liberties and "Free MArket Capitalism" exist only for the people at the top and their employees, the robo-signers that steal our homes away from us.

And Naomi Klein speaks of fascism.

All you have to do is watch her documentary about "The Shock Doctrine" to realize the implications for this nation. (Sundance Channel occasionally plays it, and you can rent or NetFlix it.)

When the Milton Friedman, University of Chicago "economic theories" are forced upon a populace, there are really only two futures that can take place.

One is the military juntas like we saw who dominated and repressed the people of Chile and Argentina.

When that occurred, the Progressives and intellectuals were "disappeared." (Loyal supporters of the main parties won't be bothered as long as they don't worry out loud about their missing relatives.)

The other possible future is to have a Mafia - like the Russian mafia, where a handful of people get very very rich, and the only way the average person can survive is to deal with the black markets.

Russia, a nation in which children were worshipped, has now become a land where parents dispose of their kids at foster care homes, as the ability to provide for offspring is not possible for many. And the elderly ended up out in the streets, standing in food lines for the occasional meal.

But hey - we have had both Dems and Republicans in the WH for thirty years. And nothing has stopped these economic theories.

Even the man who said in 2008 that he would end NAFTA conveniently forgot that promise once he was ensconsed in the nation's highest office.

[hifiguy]

8. Naomi Klein has connected the dots

better than anyone. And the picture is terrifying.

If humanity survives another 100 years Friedman will be seen as worse than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined in terms of the sheer misery he has inflicted on humanity.

[truedelphi]

11. His defenders on this board try and explain that his theories were

"Bastardized" and mis-used.

But Klein has the films of him meeting with the various heads of state in the nations affected, so he can help oversee the policies put in place.

There is no defense for the guy.

And if we survive, he will indeed be reviled.

As will many others.

[hifiguy]

21. The purer the Friedmanism. the greater the degree of

human misery and the more perfect the plutocracy's enslavement of the masses. That is one of the great lessons of the "Shock Doctrine" book (haven't seen the film). I wish the hell I don't believe in existed if only for that SHPOS to roast there for all of eternity.

Looking at Friedman, Marx would only say, "I told you so."

[white_wolf]

13. Friedman and Rand both.

One provided the economic basis, the other provided the "philosophical" and "moral" basis. The last two are just as important, in my mind, as the economic one. People are much easier to deceive if you have a philosophical justification for their oppression.

[hifiguy]

22. Good point, wolf.

Though Friedmanism has been in the mainstream a lot longer than Rand.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Actually they overlap

many of Friedman's protege's were Randian cultists as well, for example Alan Greenspan. This is not a coincidence.

[Hydra]

45. Rand gave perfect cover for the indefensible

I stand in awe of the damage she helped do with her mass delusion.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. I've been using it for the last decade.

[Selatius]

7. As the other said, I'd assert the US is a proto-fascist state.

Until such time that the US comes around to instituting a one-party dictatorship including liquidation of any and all members of the opposition parties and the routine and widespread use of deadly force against protesters (like the use of live ammunition and tanks/armored vehicles), the US is merely a corrupt Republic that has a troubling tendency to cater to corporatist interests ahead of the interests of the population at large and that exhibits some signs of wanting to squelch or limit debate on any host of economic and social issues for the sake of preserving a status quo that favors corporate power.

Edited to add: While there are some in the corporate sector who probably would welcome a bona fide corporate dictatorship, I would say most corporatists would take extreme measures to ensure the facade of democracy remains. After all, it is far easier to police a population that still believes it is free than a population that knows it is being openly oppressed and stripped of rights. That was the fatal mistake of the Iranian oligarchy; they had made the rigging of their elections so flagrant, so blatant that the people realized what had happened and became enraged and tried to rebel, only to be crushed by soldiers and tanks.

[Hydra]

46. Is there really any difference if they are putting a sugar coating on it?

People are getting shot at or disappeared already, it's just been done quietly or with the cover of "(Left Wing)Extremist."

We have no way to verify who is winning the elections, and as we have found out in the last 30 years, it doesn't seem to matter which party is in.

Now we're just at the point where they want it all in the open, as you stated as a condition of true Fascism. Look at how they have pushed the acceptance of torture, imprisonment without charge and domestic spying.

[blkmusclmachine]

9. Past time. The infrastructure for it was being built long before 9/11:

And then with the new laws written after 9/11, we were there. All they have to do now is just USE those laws, and we can acknowledge that the US has arrived at 1930's Germany. They'll go after GLBT folks first, right after DOMA is upheld in the SCOTUS. :scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Problem is that it is only when it is THIS OBVIOUS that

perhaps it will wake people...

Echelon was, in my mind, the first step. You get brownie points if you know what I am talking about.

Oh and FUCK HOOVER... I will trip it.

[truedelphi]

33. Rick Perry's people are committed to rooting out the

"witches" in every neighborhood in America. And killing them!

How they will arrive at determining just who is a witch and who isn't - I don't know.

So it won't just be gays.

It could be anyone who won't worship and genuflect before the Old Testament version of a vengeful Gay and Muslim hating God.

[Hydra]

47. Witches = Anyone not "Of the flock"

aka: Purging. I heard about it during the Bush Admin, but it's coming to a neighborhood near you.

[kenny blankenship]

12. The SPD voted en bloc against the "Enabling Act" of 1933, which gave Hitler dictatorial powers

and within 60 days they were all in the first concentration camp, or else sharing shallow graves with KPD parliamentarians, if they hadn't managed to escape the country.

Our Democrats don't have even half of their courage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. That they did

but the response was also quite not well organized... and remember the Commies were next.

I foresee a day when being a Democrat will be ilegal

[white_wolf]

16. Actually, I think the communists were first.

Weren't they rounded up before the vote on the Enabling Act?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. As part of the Reichstag fire, you are correct

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERreichstagF.htm

[kenny blankenship]

24. Correct. Reichstag Fire Decree (edict of the Pres. Hindenburg) was issued the day after the fire

On the basis of this decree "For the Protection of the People and the State" the Communist Party was suppressed and its leaders and deputies forced to try to secretly flee Germany, which some did, or be arrested, usually never to be seen again. The Reichstag Decree suspended civil liberties in general, although it targeted the Communists specifically. Freedom of the press, free speech, assembly and what we would call 4th amendment freedoms from search, seizure and surveillance were all voided. The Enabling Act came 3 weeks later and was passed by the parliament; it was not an emergency Presidential "decree" under Article 48. The "Center" Party joined the Nazis very reasonably and moderately in passing it. The SPD voted against, although some SPD deputies were already under arrest or otherwise detained by Nazis and so unable to reach the Opera House where the parliament was meeting. In any case, with the KPD all face down in ditches or running for the border, and with the Center joining the Right for the sake of bipartisan patriotic unity and security, the Enabling Act passed, 400 something to 80 something.

Does anyone think that the party that happily rolled over and passed the Patriot Act and renewed it, as well as the various & revolving "Authorizations for the Use of Military Force" against a list of countries to be filled in later as we go, evidently, and which retroactively OKed wholesale violations of the FISA Act and the Constitution, and which immunized torturers, and which pretended not to notice a whole slew of war crimes and nation-wrecking bank fraud schemes, would do anything else besides roll over again for the Enabling Act, if History hiccupped and had them switch places with Germany's Social Democrats? How can anyone possibly imagine that?

[Major Hogwash]

41. That's all well and fine, but what are you personally doing about it?

You should run for office and do something to change government from within.
Unless you think the entire system is corrupt, in which case that makes your statements above moot.

[Diclotican]

51. kenny blankenship

kenny blankenship

A decade ago, or 15 years ago i would not belive US to be posible to anyhing similar to Germany of the 1930s..

Today Im not that sure.. Not after GWB.. And Patriot Act and all the other stuff...

Diclotican

[Hydra]

48. It's not illegal now?

Serious pressure coming from the WH to adopt RW policies as "Democratic." I don't think that's a coincidence.

[geardaddy]

14. It seems it's been time for a little while now.

Good post.

[krabigirl]

17. Sure, i think we are pretty much in a soft fascist-type environment.

[sarcasmo]

19. Corporate Fascism.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

20. It is way pass time to be using the F word

But Americans get a little squishie when they have to look at the hard facts of life so we come up with alternative words like corptocracy, or plutocracy, so as not to offend their sensibilities. All the while going down the tubes while we do such.

[Capitalocracy]

36. or...

^

[lunatica]

23. The story of what BART is doing is reminiscent of facism

Superficially it looks like a stupid protest to demonstrate against having cell service shut down in BART, but dig a little and it means people can't call in case of an emergency inside or outside of BART. If someone gets a heart attach no one can call 911 or the police if thugs decide to hold everyone up.

And people should be able to call their family members at any time and anywhere. Lots of people do business on their cell phones. Cell phone service is very important.

Having that right taken away is simple fascism

[truedelphi]

56. I truly believe that when the revolution begins,

It will start in and around Oakland.

And the police there have set it up. They, together with the BART police, are the lousiest police force out there. Shooting people for the offense of jumping a turnstile. And being complicit with shutting down phone service.

[socialist_n_TN]

25. I'm torn between fascist and proto fascist

The problem with using "fascist" when it's NOT full fledged fascism yet is that people stop believing you when it BECOMES full fledged fascism. Plus it's NOT full fledged fascism yet. But there ARE disturbing signs of the Reich to come.

I'll go with proto fascism for now. As another poster said, it's easier for the fascists to control a people who THINK they're free than one that thinks they are enslaved. In order to do that, they have to give a certain amount of freedom of speech to adversaries.

[hifiguy]

27. Kickety Rec!

:kick:

[Demoiselle]

28. Well past time. (Wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.)

[jwirr]

29. Ah, Nadin I think we are well past time to use that F word in both

senses. History seems to be repeating itself but it has changed its location. We defeated it last time now we are doing it. And I don't think there is anyone strong enough to stop us. Sadly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Oh I know, but at times it takes the facade falling off

And not even then.

[Hydra]

49. Who said we defeated it?

Operation Paperclip and others. Fascism migrated when it was convenient to do so. After all, who else had The Bomb?

[RadiationTherapy]

30. This is what happens when political adversaries get tired of communicating.

There is only elimination and re-education of our adversaries when the communication stops. STOP! Weimar-time, OH OH OHOHOH!

[WillyT]

31. Yes !!! - K & R !!!

:bounce:

:hi:

:kick:

[Nye Bevan]

32. If Obama cancels the 2012 election, seizes absolute power with the backing of the armed forces,

and orders his political enemies to be rounded up and executed, then yes, that would be fascism.

But anyone who argues that we are living under fascism *right now* is just being silly.

Hint: if you are able to debate on a public forum whether or not you are "living under fascism", you aren't.

[Capitalocracy]

35. That's when?

That's a forgiving line you've drawn. So we shouldn't worry until we reach that point?

[Necronomiconomics]

37. "Silly" military tribunals, "silly" Guantanamo, "silly" CIA Secret Prisons,

"Silly" 2006 Military Commissions Act negating Habeas Corpus still on the books, "Silly" Telecom immunity for warrantless wiretapping, "Silly" engineering of an extra-Constitutional "Super Congress" legislative body that subverts checks & balances like the filibuster, "silly" assassination programs of U.S. citizens without a trial on the basis of Executive Branch whims...

... "Silly" state government of Michigan declaring "EMERGENCY POWERS" to nullify local elections & disband city charters unilaterally ...

Yes, of course. Not until public forums are finally shut down are we living under fascism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You know you should read democracy inc

Moreover not all fascist governments look like that.

This said... Echelon as been listening to you for a while...if you have no clue, google it up.

Gor the record...fuck Hoover, one of them pesky words that trigger it is well Echelon.

[Capitalocracy]

34. We've been fascist since we started instating fascist governments abroad

Now it's just coming home. But if you were in South America or the Middle East or Africa in a U.S.-backed dictator's torture chamber 40 or 30 or 20 or 10 or 2 years ago, it probably wouldn't change your opinion on what kind of democracy the U.S. was that its own citizens perceived themselves as being relatively free.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Trust me I know.

:-) el mozote in El Salvador comes to mind and a debrief in Mexico city.

[Capitalocracy]

42. you know?

what, like personal experience?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Yep, one of the things I did

Was debrief refugees.

There are files upon files, upon files gathering dust.

The stories are haunting.

[Capitalocracy]

44. I'm sure they are. I interviewed a guy who was tortured

on U.S. soil by ICE. He was guilty of being a Muslim after 9-11. It was up on YouTube, but he received credible threats, so I made it private. I can send you the link to the interview or an article about it if you want. What's extremely frightening is the uniformity of tactics... the extended periods of nudity, the cold water, electricity. Of course, the invention of the taser made torture with electricity a lot easier.

[Hydra]

50. The uniformity shouldn't be surprising

We've been doing it behind the scenes for at least 50 years now.

MK Ultra if you don't know about it. The people involved and the threads that lead from it leave no doubt what kind of Gov't we have.

[Capitalocracy]

52. It is shocking, but I guess surprising might not be the right word for it

It's heartbreaking, when you hear these stories continue to repeat themselves. It's also very telling, it shows how little things have changed, and it really sets a trail of breadcrumbs that one can get quite lost following down the rabbit hole (if I may mix metaphors).

There's a lot of very disturbing publicly available information about the real state of our democracy, but you'll end up way outside your comfort zone if you don't turn a blind eye to it. I think that's why so many people do just that.

[Hydra]

53. Oh ya

I didn't willingly go down that rabbit hole, and I don't know anyone who would.

I was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time and got a glimpse outside the edges, not unlike seeing one of Lovecraft's "Great Old Ones."

My world has never been the same. I totally believed the propaganda until then, so I know how powerful it is.

I consider myself fortunate, however- the 10 year trip down the rabbit hole since Bush's SCOTUS decision has been much easier for me to understand knowing that everything I knew before was a lie.

[Capitalocracy]

54. I've got to ask you to elaborate on that

if you're comfortable with doing so. And after you saw the beast, how many sanity points did you lose?

[Hydra]

55. I don't feel comfortable talking about it in public

Which is why I guide people from what was seen, and legally proven to the stuff under the surface. MK Ultra got more light than I could have hoped, and Dr. Ewen Cameron and others set the stage for the "Butterfly."

Regarding the SAN loss, I still haven't touched ground again yet...or maybe this is what it feels like to walk among the sleeping living?

[Capitalocracy]

58. I totally understand not wanting to talk about it

I talk about everything, but maybe I'm bold because nothing's ever happened to me personally, or maybe I'm a little bit stupid. (On edit: or maybe I feel free to say whatever I want because I feel like I'm just screaming in the dark and nobody's listening.) But like I said, I know someone who tried telling their story, and they received very credible threats... and by very credible, I mean they received them from people who were in their house.

btw, why doesn't DU have an RPG group?

[Hydra]

59. I haven't gotten any threats, per se

But I know the stuff I talk about is taboo enough, and probably got me a 1 way pass to the ovens already. The other problem is that I'm trying to make inroads with people, and it's a progressive process. Baby steps, if you will.

What lies in darker waters is like getting thrown off the boat in the middle of the ocean, in comparison. The few times I've tried to tell people about it, their minds simply shut down and they say "How is that possible?"

I'm not immune either- sometimes I feel like Neo must have, with one foot in "Reality" and the other down the rabbit hole. Neither offer solid ground to stand on.

[Hydra]

60. Also, doesn't look like I have to

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1824104

[sarcasmo]

57. It has been for some time now.