Criticize Obama all you want, but here's the line in the sand.

[FarLeftFist]

When you start criticizing people for defending him and NOT constantly criticizing him. It's truly bizarre to be called a "follower" or "Obamabot" on a DEMOCRATIC website.
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Criticize the President all you want, but don't personally attack another poster for disagreeing with your OPINION. That type of BS mind-set is a teabagger trait, we're Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, etc. We're supposed to be open-minded.

Personally, I'm a big-tent Liberal, I welcome all to the Democratic party. I respect many peoples opinions and ideas and that is what I believe is so important. I'm also a realist who knows that progress is sometimes measured one inch at a time. Which is why I will never give up or surrender fighting for the cause of forward progress.

If I wanted to be called a "follower" or "Obamabot" or any of the other BS names people throw around here I'd go join the doom + gloomers over at freeperville a.k.a The Land of Misery and Company.

If you believe your anger at Obama is justified than that's fine, but don't personally attack people for thinking differently than you. Engage in knowledgable, thought-provoking conversation.

I also disagree with some of the President's decisions but I wouldn't take it out on someone else who disagrees with me. We can agree to disagree, some people see the glass half-empty some people see the glass half-full.

That's my favorite part of the Democratic party. The diversity. People from all walks of life coming together for a common cause and to share ideas.

[Union Scribe]

1. "common cause"

And that is? Re-election?

Because I rarely seem to be sharing a common cause with the people who think things are going swimmingly.

[FarLeftFist]

5. I don't think everything is so black and white.

One can acknowledge that things aren't going swimmingly while also acknowledge the good aspects of our current situation.

[Union Scribe]

24. If I'm headed west and you're headed east, we aren't going to the same place.

When I see posters arguing that free trade treaties--not hypothetically pure ones, mind you, but NAFTA et al--produce economic prosperity for our country, we are not fighting for the same thing. When I see people argue for "education reform" a la Duncan, that's just not the same as what I'm for.

I can forgive a few of those, but eventually there's more difference on substantial policy matters than not.

[bvar22]

36. When I see the Party Leadership...

...
Barn Storming FOR Government Spending Cuts and defunding the Safety Net during a RECESSION,
I can NOT support him.
THAT is standard Republican DOGMA,
and has NEVER helped the Working Class & The Poor.

I'm going the other way,
INCREASING Taxes (Raise the CAP on the Payroll Tax),
INCREASING Government Spending,
and strengthening the Safety net.

I didn't expect to have to fight a "Democratic" President for those things.



Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?

You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
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[Union Scribe]

40. Exactly.

Solidarity, bvar22.

[lunatica]

9. Who says things are going swimmingly?

Your post is an example of what's wrong with extremists. If they aren't wid you then they're agin you right?

[Amonester]

39. For me, yes.

The same yes if Senator Sanders would:

1. Join the Democratic Party. (First long stretch.)
2. Win a primary. (Second long stretch.)

I realize the second long stretch may be just a dream at this point.

President Obama is not more perfect than any other human being, and things might not be going more swimmingly in 2016, 2020, 2024...

Fine then.

Unless...

[FarLeftFist]

2. We wonder why the Democratic party is falling apart, because we're purging them all.

And leaving a bad taste in their mouths.

[MadHound]

3. Just as bizarre as being called a Republican, 'Pug lite, or Firebagger is you do criticize him. n/t

[FarLeftFist]

7. True, that may also be a concern.

There is a line that can crossed though being this is a Democratic website. The alert feature sets the guidelines.

[Rex]

11. Actually no you can start a post here about Firebaggers

and the mods will sitback and do nothing about it.

[FarLeftFist]

15. I'm all for free-speech, but we should keep our personal attacks to a minimum.

I think the mods here do a great job and are very fair.

[Rex]

27. Didn't say they weren't doing a great job, just pointing out the facts.

Yeah I agree, when it gets to personal attacks the debate is over and both sides lost.

[mazzarro]

33. Question For You, Please.

When you say that this is a democratic site, are you implying that this is a democratic party site? That all members of this site are required to be adherents and supporters of the democratic party willy-nilly? I have assumed that this is more of a liberal/progressive site despite the name. And I will like the administrators of the site or anyone in the know to clarify this issue. I for one will not kowtow to support a group of leaders that show so little a regard for the principles and the opinions of the rank-and-file of the party. Nor will accept to follow a party that is not able to hold its leaders to account for their leadership. I will criticize whom I chose to criticize especially when they are more rethug-like that progressive.

[Rex]

8. Or someone in the Tea Party

Don't forget that chestnut!

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lunatica]

6. kick'd and rec'd

[Union Scribe]

13. You, uh, don't like being called names, then?

Because you don't seem to have trouble dishing them out.

Sincerely,
Extremist who is apparently just like GW Bush

[lunatica]

17. Extremist is not a name

It's an exaggerated attitude. A judgmental mindset too lazy to see the truth that lies within differences of opinion. It's not a name calling. Asshole is name calling.

[Union Scribe]

19. So I'm an extremist and mentally lazy, and just like Bush, but you AREN'T calling me names.

Hey OP, which part am I supposed to find common cause with?

[lunatica]

21. You responded to my post that only said kick'd and rec'd

Did you mean to respond to the OP? I haven't called you any names. So take your fight to whoever you're fighting with.

[Union Scribe]

23. 9. "Your post is an example of what's wrong with extremists."

I guess a hacker posted that one with your account. Damn hackers.

Whatever, though, I'm happy to let you shine as the beacon of the Big Tent and Common Cause.

[lunatica]

30. Well it is an example of extremism

I stand by it. No one says things are going swimmingly except someone who wants to exaggerate something others say. It's lazy upmanship with no basis in fact.

[sabrina 1]

44. It's an insult, and if you're asking people to be more civil

then it's a bit ironic to do by calling those you don't agree with 'extremists'.

I don't call people names, nor have I ever been disrespectful to the president or anyone else I disagree with. Yet I have been called a 'bigot' (can't remember why, not they ever need a reason), a 'firebagger', a lover of Dictators, etc. etc.

But you know what, I laugh at those people because once they resort to that level, mostly found among freeper types up to now, of discourse, you know it's because they have nothing to support their own positions.

[provis99]

10. freepers defend Sarah Palin.

Does that mean I shouldn't attack them?

[FarLeftFist]

12. Sarah isn't our Democratic President. This isn't about criticizing the Pres. it's about criticizing

Each other.

[TheWraith]

14. Obama is not Palin.

If you think it's even remotely comparable, then you have some serious delusions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. At the risk of insulting you, and this has lithe to do with obama, or for that matter

Bush the lesser...in the last two decades we have seen the rise of cults of personality in the us. This is a political science question, but when people talk about our president it means he is not everybody's president. We first saw it in spades with bush. Also the echo in language, bush hater, Obama hater, should at least be investigated. I am sure a graduate student in poli sci will see that and write such a thesis...and I hope it makes it beyond the...insert university press here.

[FarLeftFist]

18. Again, criticize the President all you want, this is about criticizing each other for thinking diffe

differently. I myself have criticized the Pres. but I wouldn't hound someone for disagreeing with my analysis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Re-read what I posted

And re-read the post on fire baggers...this is systemic and I expect it to get worst with the NEXT president.

True believers complain the ones not in the insert cult here, are haters and outside the group. Telling people how to be critical is part of it. Read Hoffer...the true believer...it is an oldie but a goodie on the subject.

[Lyric]

32. You're one of the rare ones, then.

Do you think it's any better when the President's overly-fervent supporters claim that the left is "trivial" and "fringe", that WE'RE somehow to blame whenever DC Dems lose elections, that we're all secretly just Freeper, PUMA trolls who get paid to post here rather than real people with urgent, legitimate problems with this administration? Do you think any of us LIKE seeing the vital politics of this nation reduced to a freaking FOOTBALL GAME--complete with "you're with us or you're against us" flag-waving?

Lecture as you wish, but at least have the decency to be fair about it. Much of the "hounding" from the left is a REACTION to the provocations and insults of the party-loyalty nannies. You're blaming people for lashing out and giving a free pass to the ones who, rather than bash Obama, choose to bash the left--a.k.a., US. That's incredibly unfair of you.

[MineralMan]

22. Well said.

Thanks!

I have criticisms for President Obama. That does not mean that I want to undercut him or see him gone. My cause is about the general direction of things over time...over a long time. Individual issues are, for me, much less important than working toward progressive ideals. I do not, and have will, expect instant results in that direction. I expect to work to see those results over time. It is not the President, it is the entire government that needs to change. It is toward that end that I'm working. Give President Obama progressive bills and he will sign them. Our government is not so simple that what the President wants to do is automatically done. It never has been, and never will be.

[demwing]

25. "Obamabot" is very uncool. But - "Follower" ???

I guess I don't see the big deal about that one.

But overall point well taken...

[Bluenorthwest]

26. For a 'big tent' type, you sure see things in a one sided fashion

Dig it. You have to start with some reality. The President says my sort of people are not 'Sanctified by God'. That is the level of rhetoric set in your garden of diversity. My family should not have equal rights, he says, because we do not have the 'spiritual element' his straight community is given by God, who makes their marriages by hand in a workshop in the North Pole, or something like that, the details get fuzzy after the opening 'us and them' language with the invocation of God included for extra verbal gravy.
That is where it starts. And here on DU, those who claim to be his 'supporters' have engaged in much,much name calling, baiting and taunting. They have developed an entire dictionary of insulting slang, often tailored to classic anti gay bully specs. Some of their name calling taunts have been banned by the admins, now and again. Which brings me to 'Obamabot'. That word is against the rules, and you should alter on it.
You see two sides, and your own as oh so pure. I think of the more OFA oriented posters as being really mean spirited and prone to many tactics and manners that I associate with bullies. To be fully blunt with you, I like the President far more than I like his 'supporters' here. We are not supposed to discuss other DUers, but your OP is just that, so I'm saying it. In o8 it was the same. When I had to get down to local election stuff, I had to shut down DU, put tons of 'supporters' on ignore, because they brought me down and made me dislike the OFA organization. So I ignored them. So that I could stop letting their bs define the President in my mind. Mean people. Defenders of hate preachers and all manner of awful shit. I do not see their posts as offering anything that could objectively be called 'support' of the President, I see lots of people take up his name as an excuse to bludgeon and snark and wail, as if he had appointed them. It is they who claim to be some sort of proxy for him, and yet while he is soft spoken and diplomatic even with his enemies, his 'supporters' do not reflect his manner at all. They talk to other Democrats in ways that I really think would give the President heartburn. I do not think it makes him look good, I do not think it persuades anyone. I think it is sport for those who can not just speak their own minds, they need to put on an Obama mask and go insult a few people.
I see meanness from 'both sides' but frankly only one of those sides claims to be representing the President with their sarcasm and disrespect toward others. Personally, I do not see behavior that is the opposite of the one represented to be good representation, and certainly it is not supportive of the message and style of the President, now is it? He says 'Coburn is my friend' and his 'supporters say 'Progressives don't know shit'. Add it up and you get a very mixed, un-Obama like message.
Can not support a nice guy by being a jerk. And when one takes up the mantel of 'representing' a politician, they owe it to that politician to engage others in a way that would be acceptable to the campaign if done in front of them. I just don't see Barack approving of 'firebagging pony wanting poutrage' as a counter to an objection at a front door canvassing event.
I'm just stunned you see it only from one place, when that shit nearly defines the internet, and most certainly crosses all camps of political opinion.

[mitchtv]

35. what he said

trashing other Democrats in order to invalidate their message is not cool. believe me it is a two way street. I was a Democrat while some of these guys were still a gleam in their fathers' eyes, now I'm being called a repub or a fringe, It loses votes

[elocs]

28. That's your line in the sand. Perhaps you could suggest to Obama where he might find one.

DU always has enjoyed receiving a lecture though.

If names do not apply to you, why would you take ownership of them?

[kenny blankenship]

29. What happens typically is a member criticizes a policy of Obama or Obama as a politician

and then they get personally attacked. Notice the progresssion: criticism of a policy, then personal attack on the poster voicing criticism. Although certain folks like to hide behind the excuse that "both sides are doing it", it is misleading to equate levels of "vitriol" or "incivility" as there is no comparison between a harsh, repudiating criticism of a policy with vicious attacks on the poster voicing the criticism. Once the personal attacks start, it is nearly impossible to return to discussion of policy as policy, and further discussion will be pointless. Which is why I suppose Obama critics are attacked so viciously and relentlessly. They do it to shut them up - to shut down discussion and drag critics into mudslinging contests with the aim of getting critics TS'ed. It won't work, I'm pleased to say; and what's more, the more certain people attack and vilify critics of the President, the more they hurt their own cause and drive people away. I see it happening week by week.

[fishwax]

31. I agree, although of course the advice you give applies to both ends of this particular spectrum

There are also people who are criticized for disagreeing with him, and some of the charges leveled at posters (often with little justification) who are critical of administration policy are equally ridiculous. There are posters on either side who could do with a bit more civility.

[U4ikLefty]

34. battered-progressive syndrome.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. I just returned to and read the whole thread. OP, your lack of

replies to many,many very good points raised, particularly about your one sided view of who insults who, seem to suggest your objective here might not be discussion at all.

[Kermitt Gribble]

38. Policy over Party

Anyone who defends a (so-called) Democratic politician for pushing right wing policy is guilty of supporting Party over policy - which subsequently trashes policies that have been Democratic Party staples for decades. If you're willing to abandon principles you've stood behind in the past, as a Democrat, because the current leadership has a different agenda, you are guilty of being a follower, plain and simple.

IMO, the era of the "Big Tent" needs to end. Too many conservatives have infiltrated our Party since the repub party went batshit crazy - this has driven our Party so far to the right, it is no longer recognizable. Anyone who doesn't stand for unions, civil and human rights, environmental responsibility, ending poverty, a peaceful existence as a country, and a strong social safety net has no business calling themselves a Democrat. If I'm labeled an extremist for feeling this way, then so be it, but not so long ago, feeling strongly about the above mentioned issues is what it meant to be a Democrat...

[RegieRocker]

41. It started first with those opposed to any discourse towards Obama.

Claiming you're helping the RW's etc. Since you didn't make your post address both sides (i will never voice dissatisfaction and neither should you / I will and should voice my dissatisfaction) it too is attacking.

[Number23]

42. Very nice. Rec'd

[TBF]

43. I have no problem with that. Are you sure that you're very welcoming

to socialists and communists on this site? Do you appreciate our support for labor? We are the ones who will NOT give up fighting for the cause. We won't sell out and privatize schools. We won't give in on universal health care. We don't support union bashing. We will not cut the social programs that allow our most vulnerable to survive.

Can you say the same? Do you really respect our views and traditional democratic values?

[Raine]

45. I have never called supporters any name, it would help if supporters didn't call us "haters" ...

just because we're offering critism in the hope that SOMEONE/ANYONE in the Obama administration will LISTEN before it's too late.

[Marrah_G]

46. I agree with you that you should not make personal attacks

I think it is disingenuous to pretend only one group does it. For every name people defending get called there is a critic being called an equally insulting name.