Libya: Much nicer under Gaddafi's rule.

[DFab420]

These are just some of the wonderful wonderful policies and actions taken by Gaddafi, who if you believe things you read here, is missed by the libyan people and the whole revolution was only a small group of people controlled by western powers...... ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi

1970
Expulsion of all Italians living in Tripoli.

1973
Created the Revolutionary Committees to keep tabs on political dissent. Ten to 20 percent of Libyans worked as informants for these committees. The government often executed dissidents through public hangings and mutilations and rebroadcast them on state television channels...People who formed a political party were executed, and talking about politics with foreigners was punishable by up to 3 years in jail. Arbitrary arrests were common and Libyans were hesitant to speak with foreigners

During the 1970s, Libya executed members of the Islamist fundamentalist Hizb-ut Tahrir faction, and Gaddafi often personally presided over the executions. Libya faced internal opposition during the 1980s because of its highly unpopular war with Chad. Numerous young men cut off a fingertip to avoid conscription at the time. A mutiny by the Libyan Army in Tobruk was violently suppressed in August 1980.

Gaddafi employed his network of diplomats and recruits to assassinate dozens of critics around the world. Amnesty International listed at least 25 assassinations between 1980 and 1987

As of 2004 Libya still provided bounties on critics, including $1 million for one journalist.

Libya's society became increasingly Islamic during Gaddafi's rule. His "purification laws" were put into effect in 1994, punishing theft by the amputation of limbs, and fornication and adultery by flogging.By Libyan constitution, homosexual relations are punishable by up to 5 years in jail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103...
All 243 passengers and 16 crew members were killed. Eleven residents of Lockerbie also died. Of the total of 270 fatalities, 189 were American citizens and 43 British citizens


But hey. I mean obviously the rebels are far more atrocious then anything Gaddafi ever did. And if you hear ANYTHING bad about Gaddafi forces its only western propaganda because we all know how awesome he was to his people.


...

:sarcasm:

[sudopod]

1. I'm against the war

not because I think that we are pushing a new lot of small western-educated tyrants on the Libyans in order to further right-wing policy goals at the cost of a billion dollars and thousands of lives, but because I masturbate to posters of Ghaddafy due to his decades long reign of terror--not to mention his sexy sense of upholstery-based fashion.

You've seen right through me! Curses!

[sabrina 1]

5. I'm against it too, for reasons you would think would be obvious

at least to people on the 'Left'. Instead I'm seeing a similar reaction to anti-Libya invasion people as I saw from the right to anti-Iraq invasion people.

Did you know we all loved Saddam and now we love Qadaffi so it's necessary to keep reminding us (as if we were not the ones in the first place who opposed the support of these dictators) of what evil people they are?

I was wondering earlier too, why the brutality of Hannibal, Qadaffi's abusive son, escaped the notice of all these people when he made headlines in 2009 or so for abusing his wife and servants, and she in turn for abusing the servants airc.

I remember being appalled when I read the Wikileaks cables about his arrest, and how those who are not pointing to these incidents with feigned horror, were negotiating behind the scenes to get him off so that his Father would not cut off the West's access to the Oil and other Business Contracts which were already having difficulties at the time.

Which is why I believe nothing I read in our media. Hypocrisy is something I cannot abide.

Hannibal's abuses were basically covered up and ignored by people who now want us to think they care! :eyes:

[Eddie Haskell]

7. Damn, sounds like Dick Cheney.

China on Tuesday urged Libya to protect its investments and said their oil trade benefited both countries, after a Libyan rebel warned that Chinese oil companies could lose out after the ousting of Muammar Gaddafi.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/23/china-libya-oil-idUSL4E7JN0Q120110823

[joshcryer]

12. You were for it before you were against it.

[sudopod]

15. Changing one's mind when new evidence comes to light?

COMMUNISM!

[joshcryer]

18. What evidence? Nothing changed.

The rebels asked for help.

They got it.

Before the rebels asked for help, we were for it.

After the rebels got help, apparently they became racist islamist terrorists.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

23. Hilarious, isn't it?

I supported it until it became clear that it was not what it appeared at first. It's hard to have to admit you are wrong. But when you are, you are. And I was ~ :-)

[joshcryer]

27. Oh, so you are saying...

...that you supported them not knowing that they were islamist racist terrorists ("not what it appeared at first").

But once you found out that they were islamist racist terrorists you changed your mind.

It's only a coincidence that before you knew that they were islamist racist terrorists they were asking for help and you supported them.

It's only a coincidence that after you found out that they were islamist racist terrorists and they got the helped that they asked for that you changed your mind.

Sorry, Occam's Razor here for me.

I don't buy it one bit.

[sudopod]

39. You could cut out the personal attacks and maybe paste a link or two in, couldn't you?

I'm sure they teach that in Computer Science II.

We all love lists of links around here, don't we? lol

[joshcryer]

26. That is a factual observation of the events as they happened.

I did not say what people think, that is what happened.

[sudopod]

38. O RLY? nt

[sabrina 1]

22. Yes, did someone say I wasn't? Then I saw what was really going

on and hard as it was, I had to admit I mistaken. This was no Arab Spring rebellion. Iraq was, but that was brutally put down by the 'democratic' government installed by the same suspects who are behind this 'rebellion' and who will, regardless of what anyone wants, make sure that no one who will not cooperate regarding Libya's resources, will end up in power in that country. Even if they are Al Queda. All that is required, is to not give any problems to the West regarding Libya's resources.

So, when will NATO, Blackwater, Qatar et al all be leaving Libya? Qadaffi is gone, they are not needed anymore. What are they doing there still?

[joshcryer]

28. "This was no Arab Spring rebellion." "Even if they are Al Queda."

:eyes:

I'll look forward to your continual bashing of the Libyan people over the years.

[sudopod]

40. Do you even know any actual Libyans?

Also, the new unelected government does not equal "the Libyan people" any more than the previous unelected government. Not yet. Nor is it equivalent to the men on the ground who fought the battles, nor are all of them represented equally or even integrated into a single command structure.

Moreover, I think you'll find that most people (other than one guy who hasn't found this thread yet, lol) are questioning the motives of the Western powers more than anything. But really, keep on repeating yourself. We're afraid of evil terrrirists, so we're just like Jr. because we're against the war. Or something.

PS: You know, about that "al quaeda" thing you just did. Considering the parent post to yours only wrote four lines, it is really impressive that you managed to take that out of context. Just super.

How under Yggdrasil have you been so thoroughly convinced that this is the Just War every armchair general since 1945 has been praying for, as opposed to all the others? If anyone could understand that, I think it would go a long way toward being able to undo all of the programming that goes into making people obedient little cogs in the machine.

[formernaderite]

46. so I'm a pacifist.... but primarily I want the USA

to stop being the self-appointed World Police.

[TheWraith]

2. Such a wonderful fellow!

I can see why he's missed.

[BeFree]

3. Axis of Evil Standards

So why did Europe and the US continue to do business with him?

Oh well, he's gone. Who's next?

And what shall we do there? Prop up someone else?

Glad it all seems to be a success. Seems. But have we learned a lesson or will we continue to blunder along until it comes down to another military solution?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

6. Most western leaders seemed pretty happy with our anti-terrorism partner over the past 5 years.

[sabrina 1]

8. Exactly. Now they are 'horrified' by what they helped cover up

for those years. And if the 'rebels' do not behave, like handing over control of their resources, they too will suddenly find themselves the subjects of articles like this.

[sudopod]

9. Whatever do you mean?

We've always been at war with Eurasia!

[PufPuf23]

10. Hell yeah! We are protecting civilians!!!! Sirius!!

Glad to have noticed you!!!

[joshcryer]

13. Many leftists seemed pretty unhappy with our flip flopping though.

Frankly I'm glad when we get it right for a change.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Leftists aren't so quick to proclaim mission accomplished. It's awareness of that pesky history of

the west and the exploitation of weak resource rich countries.

[joshcryer]

19. Hmm, I've been backing them so long now that I truly believe it would be wrong of me...

...not to have faith in their ability to get things done.

I mean, look at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1836579&mesg_id=1836579">this report (it's also posted by a different author in LBN under "Libyan Rivalrys Create Divisions" or something like that). It's good news. They're actually debating the makeup of their transitional government. With open protest. And it's having an effect (this article is slightly dated, Jibril is already removing the henchman from the ranks). Compare that to Egypt where they have yet to get any reforms beyond what Mubarak already had offered!

[bhikkhu]

29. There is a variety of skepticism that believes good government is impossible

...that people can't ever gain their freedom, or live within and as a part of a society where people work together for each other's benefit.

If its not possible, there's no point in anybody trying; if you believe its not possible and you see people trying, then its just annoying as hell.

[Fumesucker]

11. What, no babies thrown out of incubators?

Come on, you can do better than this..

By the way, what are the Bahraini and Saudi governments up to in terms of human rights these days?

[Mimosa]

21. Fumesucker, we love you!

;)

BTW, my Sufi Muslim MD pal told me it is illegal for a Jewish person to get a visa into Saudi Arabia. I wonder if that's true. He's sort of an apostate to Sunnis so he may not be on the level.

[Fumesucker]

24. I believe that is true, no Jews allowed in freedom loving US ally Saudi Arabia..

Have you heard of the girls school fire in Saudi where the religious police forced girls back into a burning building because they were not properly covered head to toe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire

Such freedom loving allies, the Saudis.

[EFerrari]

14. Neo-colonialism is awesome, dude.

[joshcryer]

16. Is that where you...

...invite the http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294687/110-LIBYAN-COMPANIES-PRIVATIZED-HEAD-OF-LIBYAN-PRIVATIZATION-AUTHORITY-REPORTS-ON-CONTINUED-PROGRESS.html">privatization of stated owned companies, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294693/LIBYANS-SEEK-RENEWED-COMMITMENT-FROM-U.S.-IN-RETURN-FOR-PROGRESS-ON-HEU-SHIPMENT.html">reopen relations with the United States, indeed, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294709/LIBYAN-MINISTER-OF-ECONOMY-WELCOMES-U.S.-TRADE-MISSION.html">welcoming http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294767/U.S.-COMPANIES-WIN-2-BILLION-WORTH-OF-INFRASTRUCTURE-CONTRACTS-AS-REWARD-FOR-POLITICAL-RELATIONSHIP.htmlUS] link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294881/LIBYAS-MINISTRY-OF-ECONOMY-AND-TRADE-WELCOMES-COOPERATION-WITH-U.S.-1.-U.html">contracts, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294860/LIBYA-FURTHER-PRIVATIZES-FUEL-DISTRIBUTION.html">privitizing fuel distribution, opening the country up to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294864/GERMAN-OIL-FIRM-RWE-MAKES-TWO-MORE-DISCOVERIES-IN-LIBYA.html">more foreign oil prospectors? Is that where you bring a http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294881/LIBYAS-MINISTRY-OF-ECONOMY-AND-TRADE-WELCOMES-COOPERATION-WITH-U.S.-1.-U.html">boon to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294891/OPPORTUNITIES-FOR-U.S.-FIRMS-AS-LIBYA-INVESTS-BILLIONS-IN-NATIONAL-INFRASTRUCTURE-DEVELOPMENT-TRIPOLI-00000942-001.2-OF-002.html">foreign investors, a http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294929/LIBYA-INVESTMENT-CLIMATE-STATEMENT.html">true http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294934/LIBYA-COMMERCIAL-ROUND-UP-FOR-DECEMBER-2008-AND-JANUARY-2009.html">boon for http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294882/LIBYA-COMMERCIAL-ROUND-UP-FOR-OCTOBER-2008-OIL-AND-GAS.html">capitalism and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294919/RISKY-BUSINESS-AMERICAN-CONSTRUCTION-FIRM-ENTERS-JOINT-VENTURE-WITH-GOL.html">American companies? Is that where you http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294923/AL-QADHAFIS-FEINT-LIBYAN-OIL-NATIONALIZATION-UNLIKELY.html">fail to nationalize the foreign companies?

[ProgressoDem]

25. Hear, hear.

I'm glad in the real world, it's kosher to be both a Democrat and anti-authoritarian. It only makes sense...

[EFerrari]

30. In the real world of global capital, trading Gaddafi for NATO

isn't radically democratizing anything.

[ProgressoDem]

31. NATO?

NATO's worse than Moammar Gaddafi / now in charge of Libya? Whoa, that's news to me.

[joshcryer]

32. It's only news to some. Others, even diehard anti-interventionists, think NATO is marginal at best:

But between this and believing that NATO is now in control of Libya, there is, you know, a very far cry, because how can-I mean, even if you take countries like Iraq or Afghanistan with NATO troops on the ground, and massively in Iraq for a long while, they weren't even able to control the country. So how do you want NATO or the West to control Libya by remote control, without any troops on the ground? And that's why some people, like Richard Haass from Council on Foreign Relations, are now saying-you know, claiming-asking Washington to send boots on the ground. But this is something that has been adamantly rejected by the rebellion from day one. They asked for air cover. They asked for air protection. But they were adamant from the start at rejecting any form of intervention of troops on the ground. And they are still very much on this position. They have even made statements just recently that they would not allow NATO to establish any bases in their country. And we can see many signs, like, for instance, refusing to-saying that they would not hand over Gaddafi or his sons to the International Criminal Court, but through-I mean, to have trials in Libya itself. So, this shows the limitation, whatever they claim in Washington or London or Paris, the limitation of their real leverage over the Libyan situation. They had a leverage as long as-and they still have a more limited one-as long as Gaddafi's forces are there and as long as the war is going on. But as soon as this will vanish, then the leverage that they will have will be extremely diminished.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=623161&mesg_id=623763

[EFerrari]

33. You are calling military thuggery "anti-authoritarian".

There is probably nothing more authoritarian than "might makes right".

[ProgressoDem]

34. Whose military thuggery?

If you're talking about the Libyan rebels, guess what - it's hard to build a free society out of nothing. People are gonna f*** up but it's better than the alternative, which is a brutal anti-American anti-freedom dictator.

[EFerrari]

35. I'd say bombing a capital city in humanitarian drag is thuggery.

And you don't build free societies at gunpoint.

[ProgressoDem]

44. Sigh.

I guess we should have let Gaddafi's military continue butchering his own people. After all, if we have to do a minimal amount of targeted killing to save a far greater number of lives, that's far worse than the alternative! It doesn't matter if less people died - it just matters that the big bad United States was the one that did it.

At least we can feel warm and fuzzy inside - just at the cost of ignoring the rest of the world's problems.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

36. Great post. And the sad thing is that you haven't even begun to scratch the surface...

in terms of his atrocities. Lockerbie is the most famous of his state-sponsored acts of terrorism, of course, but there was also his bombing of the Berlin discotheque in 1986, the cold-blooded killing of three US hostages on his orders after the bombing of Libya that year (and actually he probably wanted to kill more of them because he entered into negotiations with Hezbollah to purchase all the other remaining hostages that it had, including Terry Anderson but Hezbollah refused), his bombing of a 1989 plane in Africa (the casualties included the wife of a US Ambassador among others) and the disappearance and presumed murder of the Shi'ite cleric al-Sadr during a visit to Libya in the 1970s. Add to that his role and involvement in atrocities committed in Chad and then consider that this isn't even a full list of the atrocities he committed against innocent citizens of foreign countries, let alone on his own people.

He is a perverted, vile, barbaric monster who has destroyed the lives of millions both in his own country and across the globe. And I hope he's caught and held accountable for his evil crimes

[court jester]

37. some people shaking Qadaffis hand:

US interests

Worried that they were missing out to European competition, a group of powerful US companies (including BP, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Dow Chemical, ExxonMobil, Fluor, Halliburton, Hess Corporation, Marathon Oil, Midrex Technologies, Motorola, Northrop Grumman, Occidental Petroleum, Raytheon, Shell and United Gulf Construction Company) set up a US-Libya Business Association to catch up.

Among the Gaddafi regime’s new lobbyists in Washington was arch neocon Richard Perle, a former Reagan-era US Defense Department official and George W. Bush-era chair of the US Defense Policy Board.

According to US political reporter Lauren Rozen, Perle traveled to Libya as a paid adviser to the Monitor Group, a prestigious Boston-based consulting firm with close ties to leading professors at the Harvard Business School:

A 2007 Monitor memo named among the prominent figures it had recruited to travel to Libya and meet with Gaddafi "as part of the Project to Enhance the Profile of Libya and Muammar Gaddafi" Perle, historian Francis Fukuyama, Princeton Middle East scholar Bernard Lewis, famous Nixon interviewer David Frost, and MIT media lab founder Nicholas Negroponte, the brother of former deputy secretary of state and director of national intelligence John Negroponte.

http://links.org.au/node/2179


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 17:56 — normd
Did Wikileaks just reveal the US blueprint for Libya? Ali Abunimah on Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:23
http://links.org.au/node/2179#comment-110907

The US administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama were set on developing deep “military to military” ties with the Libyan regime of Muammar Gaddafi, classified US diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks on 24 August reveal.

The United States was keen to integrate Libya as much as possible into “AFRICOM,” the American military command for Africa which seeks to establish bases and station military forces permanently on the continent.

“We never would have guessed ten years ago that we would be sitting in Tripoli, being welcomed by a son of Muammar al-Qadhafi,” Senator Joseph Lieberman (Ind.-CT) said during an August 2009 meeting, which also included Senators John McCain and Susan Collins.




The records confirm that McCain, the Republican presidential candidate in 2008, strongly supported US arms sales to Libya and personally pledged to Muammar Gaddafi (also spelled “al-Qadhafi”) and his son Muatassim that he would push to get such transfers approved by Congress. McCain also revealed that the United States was training officers in Gaddafi’s army.

While the Americans pursued the relationship vigorously, they met with a cautious and sometimes “mercurial” response from the Libyans. In particular, the mistrustful Libyans wanted security guarantees that the Americans appeared reluctant to give.

“We can get from Russia or China,” Muatassim told the visiting senators, “but we want to get it from you as a symbol of faith from the United States.”

In hindsight, given the US support for the NATO war against the Gaddafi regime, it is not difficult to understand why the Libyans wanted these guarantees...(more)>




Italian interests

In the February 23 issue of the British Guardian, Tom Bawden and John Hooper described the role of Berlusconi in Europe’s courting of the Gaddafi regime:

Gaddafi and Berlusconi have a famously warm personal relationship. Less well-known, however, is the fact that Berlusconi is in business with one of the Libyan state’s investment vehicles.

In June 2009, a Dutch-registered firm controlled by the Libyan Arab Foreign Investment Company, took a 10% stake in Quinta Communications, a Paris-based film production and distribution company. Quinta Communications was founded back in 1990 by Berlusconi in partnership with Tarak Ben Ammar, the nephew of the late Tunisian leader, Habib Bourguiba.

The Italian prime minister has a 22% interest in the company through a Luxembourg-registered subsidiary of Fininvest, the firm at the heart of his sprawling business empire. Last September, the Libyans put a director on the board of Quinta Communications to sit alongside Berlusconiís representatives.

************************

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/24/muammar-gaddafi-us-business-lobby_n_827769.html

Libyan Opposition Leaders Slam U.S. Business Lobby's Deals With Gaddafi

NEW YORK -- A broad coalition of interests from oil companies, defense manufacturers and well-connected lobbying firms to neoconservative scholars and Harvard Business School professors has worked in recent years to advance a rapprochement with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and take advantage of business opportunities in the country, even in the face of the longtime international pariah's brutal repression of his people and his legendary belligerence.

(clip)
***********************

US Federal Reserve Lent To Gaddafi-Owned Bank

Federal Reserve Lent To Gaddafi-Owned Bank, European Firms After Fighting Disclosure For 3 Years

First Posted: 03/31/11 09:57 PM ET Updated: 04/ 1/11 01:09 AM ET

At a time when credit markets shunned even the most worthy borrowers, foreign banks, including one partly-owned by Muammar Gaddafi's Libya, fled to the Federal Reserve and borrowed at rock-bottom interest rates, Fed documents released Thursday show....(more)

*******************



Tony Blair our very special adviser by dictator Gaddafi's son

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284132/Tony-Blair-special-advis...

By Nabila Ramdani, Tim Shipman and Peter Allen
June 5, 2010

Tony Blair has become an adviser to Colonel Gaddafi, the Libyan dictator's son has sensationally claimed.

Saif al-Islam Gaddafi said the former prime minister has secured a consultancy role with a state fund that manages the country's £65billion of oil wealth.

In an exclusive interview, Saif described Mr Blair as a 'personal family friend' of the Libyan leader and said he had visited the country 'many, many times' since leaving Downing Street three years ago...(more)



****************



Such good friends: Yesterday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy (left) welcomed Muammar Gaddafi to France; the berobed Libyan dictator is there for a five-day, official visit...(more)

**************



In 2004 the Bush administration removed Libya from the list of nations that sponsor terrorism and lifted sanctions.

and then there's this:
Tuesday, November 18, 2008

President Bush called Libya's Moammar Gaddafi yesterday -- apparently the first time any president has spoken to the African leader -- to voice his satisfaction that Libya had settled a long- standing dispute over terrorist attacks, including the bombing of a Pan Am jet over Scotland, the White House said...
*****************




Moatassem-Billah Gaddafi is a Libyan Army officer, and the National Security Adviser of Libya since 2010.<1> He is the fifth son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, and a member of his father's inner circle.

********************

What of a people that can continue to be lied to over and over and over again?

[DFab420]

41. If I wasnt on my phone I'd be posting pictures of Hitler hosting the fucking Olympics

.. I mean how dare leaders meet other leaders. Trying to use diplomacy is so fucked up right???

:sarcasm:

[NeedleCast]

42. The Far Left Has an bizzare stance on authoritarian dictators

They hate the repression.
They hate the authoritarianism.
They hate the crimes.
They hate the patriarchal dominance.
They hate the corruption.

but

They also hate to see them fall.

Strange.

[ProgressoDem]

45. They just hate the idea that the U.S. military can be used for good.

A nuanced position in regards to the military? I'm not used to that! They're all supposed to be war criminals!

[sudopod]

47. Come, let us reason together.

Do you really believe that people who are against this war only hold that belief because we hate the military? Examine that assumption very carefully.

[joeybee12]

43. Of course, and that's why we also intervened in the Sudan...

Oh wait....