Which will come first, the Meltdown or the Violence?

[FirstLight]

I am in no way an economist, but I know enough to know that right now our ENTIRE world economy is a virtual house of cards and the window is open and a strong wind is beginning to blow...

With that said, and our OWS Movement growing, it seems like an amazing synchronicity...

so we have been growing our ranks, and really stressing the non-violence stance. If the violence happens, it will not be our side that instigates it.However, if faced with a global economic armageddon, how long will that last? There could be many more in the streets freaking out and causing mayhem, joining our forces because of their fear that the broken system has finally, inevitably fallen to pieces..

And - we all know the PTB are starting to shake in their boots. As this grows in scope and size, it is becoming more apparent to our 'owners' that we are no longer lulled into complacency by rampant consumerism and tv programming.
How long before they snap?


I personally believe that forgiveness of debt on a global scale is one of our only options... to do that would probably crash the world economy ...or maybe crashing it would help us start from scratch anyway :shrug:

so I guess my bigger question for us all is - how close are we to the money system truly crashing? you know, you can only reprogram the system so much and then it will eat itself...

[YellowCosmicSun]

1. Neither. The sky won't fall.

[GeorgeGist]

25. Some facts would be helpful.

[YellowCosmicSun]

28. Would they really change your mind?

[polichick]

2. The European debt crisis is a big part of the winds ruffling Wall Street right now...

If that's not resolved soon, the house of cards will come tumbling down fast.

[Creideiki]

29. Europe is nothing compared to the mess in China

and our second dip.

It's going to be not fun for a while.

[shraby]

3. I've been stocking up on sea shells..currency for probably

thousand of years in early man's history. :evilgrin:

[FirstLight]

6. I am a big proponent

of WAMPUM myself! ;)

[CJCRANE]

4. They could nullify the Credit Default Swaps...

they seem to be a big part of the problem.

People made the rules, so as long as there's agreement we/they can reset the rules. Most of the world's major countries would need to reach a consensus.

[Rabblevox]

5. Just my opinion, I think true meltdown comes first...

Then the violence. I pray that we can avoid both, but my prayers contradict my logic. We are really only in the first stage of a meltdown, it's going to get much, much worse.

Whether we can avoid blood running in the streets? Well that kinda depends on them, dunnit?

[FirstLight]

8. agreed

I am continuing to hold for peaceful change, but there are so many of us enmeshed in the illusion of our own personal value system, that it will be hard to re-wire our collective thoughts on money and how it all works.

the cards are falling, no doubt, and i also agree that the european money system is a lot closer to crashing than we know, if it hasn't crashed already and the PTB are still covering for themselves...

[FarCenter]

7. The meltdown

Take the case of the USSR.

The economy collapsed, political chaos ensued, but there wasn't a lot of violence.

Pensions and savings were inflated away to essentially nothing, healthcare collapsed, and old people died in droves.

The people with the most connections and political clout wound up with most of the assets, and a new class of political and economic masters arose out of the chaos.

Now you have the Putin government and an economy in which oligarchs play the largest role.

Collapse doesn't result in economic equality -- usually it is the opposite.

[FirstLight]

9. true, but

if we are talking about collapse on a MULTI-national level...? that could change the playing field a lot more...and the fact that so many are mobilized to demand change, could really shift the outcome

[FarCenter]

23. Possibly, especially if there is international conflict and competition at the same time

The 1911 Revolution in China, for example, was the prelude to 4 decades of widespread death until the Communists consolidated control after 1949.

[coalition_unwilling]

14. Actually, it's the 'Medvedev government' (unless you were using

'Putin governmnet' metaphorically, since Medvedev was a Putin acolyte).

Also, there wasn't a lot of violence, provided you exclude Chechnya and Nagorno Karabakh. Come to think of it, the latter is part of Azerbaijan, so not a part of Russia properly speaking. But a former part of the USSR.

[FarCenter]

22. I was using "Putin government" in the sense of the government that he structured

Putin reestablished the power of the central government and asserted central control. He also asserted political supremacy over the economic supremacy of the oligarchs. The FSB was aslo reformed and reinvigorated as an instrument of state power.

The situation in Chechnya, etc., was due to a lack of clarity with respect to how far the USSR was going to be allowed to disintegrate along national and ethnic lines. Some soviet socialist republics, such as the Baltic and Central Asian republics, had left the USSR. But that left quite a number of additional republics and "autonomous regions" with unsettled futures. The wars in Chechnya stopped further disintegration of Russia.

[Jim Warren]

10. Not an either/or.

There exists other outcomes.

[FirstLight]

11. Definitely!

And I wanted to start this thread to explore those... I would like to hear your best vision for the next wave, if you have one to share :)

[Jim Warren]

12. Let me just say

I recently did a trip overland across the country. The variety of people and experiences I encountered were overwhelmingly positive, sometimes in surprising locations and sometimes being in vulnerable situations. The willingness of people to be friendly and help a total stranger was humbling, I was constantly challenged to examine my reserve and paranoia. I am not advocating an empty headed frolic where a traveler would not keep their wits about them, but the people I met across the heartland exhibited kindness, resolve and fortitude that should not go unremarked.

[villager]

13. It's an interesting enough post to provoke nervous "unrecs" here

...always a sign you're on the right track... ;-)

[Karenina]

32. Indeed! I hope it's not too late for GP...

No matter though. :kick: trumps!

[Karenina]

33. OOPS! Down from my 5 to 2!

:rofl:

[FirstLight]

36. lol

I was just thinking about that... how many people still have their heads in the sand about all this?

It's like clinging to an old outmoded way of life because it is what one is "used' to, it it the same as people trying to fit this movement into a mold of 'reform'...this movement will not be about reform. It will eventually be about a NEW America...

When I read the statement from the NYC-GA, i was moved...it is a New declaration of Independence...but I prefer to call it a Declaration of INTER-Dependence.
When we start to realize how interconnected we are and dependent upon each-other and compassion rules, that will be a dawning of the new day. and it IS here! :bounce:

(peak oil, economy, food shortages, etc...all may be needed to force us to come together, don't cha think? Early Humans came together in tribes because they realized, we are PACK ANIMALS, and no matter how much our world has convinced us to fend for ourselves, that truth will eventually come into play once more:) )

[FirstLight]

15. True, the positivity pf the people is powerful, very much so

I am more worried about the PTB and their penchant to try and keep things under control. if the economic situation gets any more unstable, it won;t be long until they try and BLAME the protestors too... i have no doubt about it.

I am not an advocate of the whole revolutionary stance, and while i have my own fears about the chaos and mayhem factor, I'd like to think we can do it without that extreme.
But I also know there are so many people in all walks of life that just can't or won't be able to wrap their heads around the changes afoot right now.

It is a squirrely situation, any way you look at it. Just praying for the unity-factor and the peacefulness of it all to continue in the face of some drastic stuff hitting the fan in the very near future.

[kentuck]

16. Some folks think the violence in '68 cost the Democrats heavily..

in the election and allowed Richard Nixon to win. That is a gamble that Parties take.

[Davis_X_Machina]

17. In 1929, France, Germany, the US, the UK, Canada and Scandanvia..

..were all functioning parliamentary democracies with capitalist economic systems.

Ten years later, after unemployment between two-and-a-half and four times what it is today, for four-five-six years running, exactly none of those governments were toppled by revolution from the left.

Capitalism was still alive and kicking in all of them -- tamed somewhat in some, hypertrophied with the help of the state in others (Germany).

We are far, far from the level of immiseration required to bring about changes of any great magnitude. Quite frankly, revolutions are over-rated. And the conditions required to bring them on really, really suck.

[villager]

19. These would all be countries who were at war with each other in WW II?

Yeah, no consequence from economic meltdown there....

[Davis_X_Machina]

21. It's hard to make the case that WWII in Europe was...

...caused by the Depression.

[villager]

24. It would be harder to make the case that it had no effect on the rise of fascism

...in Europe at the same time.

[XemaSab]

35. 'Cause people taking wheelbarrows full of marks to the store to buy bread

weren't looking for someone to get them out of the hole they were in. :eyes:

[FirstLight]

20. Historical references and lessons

are somewhat good for looking at human nature...but you cannot compare this to another time or situation. our global economy is much more enmeshed and the communications and social systems are vastly different. it's not going to be just smoothed over in a few years...the system is broken so badly it cannot be repaired in the same old ways.

i agree that revolution sucks, but i also believe that we cannot avoid a drastic change coming down the pike to the way we live and how we function as a society.

[Karenina]

26. Coming down the pike?

IT'S UPON US!!! LOOK AROUND!!! :hide:

Great post!

[FirstLight]

34. I agree...

It is here...and more is yet to come, hang tough, my friend...see you on the other side! :grouphug:

[quaker bill]

27. Well said

However, considerable changes were made to put people back to work and blunt the impact of extreme economic dysfunction. One of the reasons left wing movements did not change governance is that each government had seen a communist revolution just a few years back in Russia. The ruling elites allowed and some even worked for many changes to the social contract that reduced the tension and potential unrest.

The Germans went for scapegoating, national chauvanistic propoganda, and military Keynesianism. (similar to, but not the same as the republican approach)

[jwirr]

18. Have one question: Debt forgiveness - national debt or personal

debt. I think that personal debt forgiveness would go further in rebuilding the crashed system when it happens.

[Katashi_itto]

30. Meltdown 1st Fiat money will cease to be of value

[KurtNYC]

31. the bread and circuses will continue

at any cost to the future