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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:31 PM
Original message
Why are corporations not people?
I am working on an essay which lays out the facts of "corporate personhood" and have gotten to the place where I explain how "corporate persons" differ from "natural people".

I have tried to be exhaustive in my list, but I am sure I have missed a few diferences. Any suggestions are appreciated.

In 1882 Santa Clara County, California got into a tax dispute with the Southern Pacific Railroad over fences. The county saw fences along railroad lines as an “improvement”, which raised the value of the land, and wanted to tax the railroad accordingly. The Southern Pacific Railroad disagreed, and refused to pay the tax.

The California Supreme Court backed Santa Clara, and the matter was appealed to the Supreme Court in 1886.

The Southern Pacific Railroad argued that corporations were “people” as regards the “equal protection” clause of the 14th Amendment which states:

deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

While the Supreme Court did rule for the railroad, it did so on the basis of the minutiae of California tax law, and never mentioned the 14th Amendment directly.

If these positions are tenable, there will be no occasion to consider the grave questions of constitutional law upon which the case was determined below; for, in that event, the judgment can be affirmed upon the ground that the assessment cannot properly be the basis of a judgment against the defendant.

In essence, the Supreme Court said, “The railroad raised an interesting question about whether a corporation should be treated as a real “person”, but since we tossed out the case on more mundane grounds, we aren’t going to answer that question.

Had things been left as they were, this would have been just a boring little case that law students wanting to be tax lawyers would get on a test.

Except that before the arguments on the case started Chief Justice Morrison Waite spouted off that:

"The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does."

Of course, since the statement was made before arguments had even begun, the statement itself was never argued. In essence, Justice Waite decided the issue unilaterally. The other justices may have agreed with him, but as the issue was not argued before the court, and a specific ruling handed down explaining this view, the statement was a highly dubious departure from the practice of the court dating back to Marbury v. Madison.

When asked about the statement by the court reporter, Bancroft Davis, Waite stated that he thought the statement accurate, but since the question of corporate personhood was not actually decided by the Court, he left it to Davis’ discretion whether or not to include it in the headnotes of the case. Davis, a former railroad director, decided it was and did.

Since headnotes are the summary of a case that other judges read to determine how they should rule, the concept that “corporations are people” became the law of the land without ever being argued before the court and justified legally.

Only in the logic of the law can such an absurd concept as “corporate personhood” be considered rational.

Corporations are functionally immortal, people are not. Even in the rare instances a corporation does die (goes bankrupt), corporations can re-incarnate, people cannot.

While Texas executed over 200 people in the last decade, it has yet to execute a single corporation. In fact, corporate execution (by revocation of corporate charter) had pretty much disappeared in the last 80 years.

Corporations cannot suffer, only make the people who work for them suffer, or make the environment suffer. This causes people beyond the direct control of a corporation to suffer.

Corporations do not fight or die in wars, people do. Corporations just make money on the death and destruction that wars cause. In fact, some corporations encourage wars, because they sell the instruments of death and destruction.

Corporations cannot be punished, only people can. Any sanction against a corporation is ultimately born by real people.

Corporations do not go to prison, people do. Corporations can make money off prisons and prisoners, by running the former, and exploiting the latter. Allowing corporations to run prisons creates a vile incentive to push for irrational laws with draconian punishments. Since prisoners in a corporate prison are “assets” that generate “revenue”, the more prisoners a prison has and the longer they stay, the more money it makes. Thus, prison corporations will influence congress to criminalize more acts, and punish them more harshly. Prison corporations will always oppose the decriminalization of any act which would lower the prison population, or lessen sentences (see marijuana).

While in a metaphorical sense, corporations can get sick, and even die, the misery is not suffered by the corporation, but by the people who compose it. Even then, the management responsible for the sickness and death are rarely included in the suffering and usually find another “host” to support their parasitical existence.

A public servant works for the public, a corporation works for itself. Therefore any public service turned over to a corporation with either cost the public more to administer, or reduce the service provided.

Corporations have but one god, money; their only prophets are profits; and their only commandment is, “Maximize shareholder value”.

Corporations cannot feel shame or empathy, thus have no social constraint on their actions. As long as they make money and obey the letter of the law (at least while people are looking), no action(s), no matter how detrimental to the public, the country, or the planet, is constrained by decency or compassion. When real human beings act this way, we call them “sociopaths”, and they are either medicated, restrained, imprisoned or executed.

Corporations enjoy hundreds of tax credits, rebates and deductions that people do not. They can use their fiscal resource to create more such benefits, and stave off attempts to repeal any of those benefits; people, except for the rare few possessed of cash on par with a corporation, cannot.

When a group of people conspires and executes a plan to kill 3,000 other people, they are branded “terrorists”, and the entire country’s police and military resources are employed to capture/punish these people. But when an industry (a group of corporate people, say the meat processing industry) kills 3,000 people (and poisons 128,000 more) they suffer negligible fines, and the rare indictment criminal indictment. Now some will argue that the first group INTENTIONALLY killed people while the second group did not. If this argument is made, it begs the question: “How many times can you “unintentionally” kill 3,000 people a year, before folks see it as intentional?”
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. We can't hold them in jail or execute them.
If we could, Massey Energy and BP would be first on the list.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. On my list
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Corporations can't vote.
If they could, everyone would have twenty of them, profitable or not, and people would see corporate personhood for the scam that it is.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. They vote with their pocketbook
...especially now that the Supreme Court allowed unlimited unlimited corporate contributions.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Not directly
Weird. They don't vote but have more power than people do.

I think I'll add that one.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
42. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
If corporations are people, then why don't we allow them to vote? Answer: Because they AREN'T PEOPLE.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. "LLC" doesn't stand for "Limited Liability Citizens"
If we were to break a law, or order someone else to do so, we would be directly punished. When a CEO does it, the company pays a fine, not the CEO.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I kind of have that covered
but in the inverse, talking about people bearing the actual burden of sanctions against a corporation
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. They lack a corporeal body
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 02:42 PM by ixion
- They are not homo sapiens.

- They're not even mammals... hell, they're not even anthropomorphic.

- They are fictional entities, which mean they cannot be a 'person' by definition.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. A court clerk made that decision, not the court. It's insanity that it still holds.
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 02:43 PM by valerief
But as long as it makes rich people richer, that's all that matters, cuz that's the most important thing in the world!

However, according to Thom Hartmann, the relatively mundane court case never actually granted these personhood rights to corporations. In fact, Chief Justice Morrison Waite wrote, “We avoided meeting the Constitutional question in the decision.” Yet, when writing up the case summary -that has no legal status-the Court reporter, a former railroad president named J.C. Bancroft Davis, declared: “The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a state to deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” But the Court had made no such legal determination. It was the clerk’s opinion and misrepresentation of the case in the headnote upon which current claims of corporate personhood and free speech entitlements now rests.


http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/13-corporate-personhood-challenged/
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. What gender is a corporation? nt
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. The meaning is in the word itself.
The root of the word incorporate is the Latin word, "Corpus." It means body, as in human body. To incorporate something implies giving that something the equivalent of a body. Corporations are not people, but they have certain equivalencies legally with people. That's why they exist, and is the source of the problem. By making the corporation a corpus, the body can be sued, but the individual people who own the corporation cannot. That's the reason corporations exist. It is a body that can be held liable. In the process, it gains some legal reality of existence. There's the problem, in a nutshell.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. I understand the legal need for
a fictitious body, otherwise how else can you assign liability or enforce contracts? The problem is that the "corporate class" of "people" enjoy far too many rights, and bear few responsibilities that natural people do. There assertion of equality with natural people effectively removes them from our control. No natural person can be do this. not without resources similar to a corporation.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. I agree with you 100%. I was just laying out why it's a problem.
The word says it.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Actually I appreciate the post, it gives
me a technical context to frame what we talked about, plus an idea of the Constitution set up a government with checks and balances for three occupants, but we now have a fourth, and this fourth has utterly suborned the other three.
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. JUST read an interesting piece on HuffPost
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benld74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Living Organism definition -
The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
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ArcticFox Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. A couple
You touched on these, but I hope this helps.

Corporations can't be held truly accountable for such things as killing people, or for killing other corporations. In fact it is encouraged for corporations to kill other corporations, and when they end up killing people they often pay less in fines than they earned undertaking the behavior that foreseeably led to the deaths. This encourages corporations to kill flesh and blood people.

People are generally not allowed to eat each other, and when they do, it does not make them stronger. Corporations are encouraged to do so, even given money from the government to do so. When a corporation eats the corpus of another corporation (i.e., acquires its assets), it generally becomes stronger. While eating a person might make you or me sick, a corporation is often granted immunity to the ill-effects of cannibalism by the government.

Corporations are basically blood-sucking murderous cannibals which have no set limits on their longevity. Would that make them modern-day vampires?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Oooohhh
Very good. I mentioned parasitical, but missed cannibal.

:)
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. to play devil's advocate
and a point that someone may bring up:

a corporation is a collective of individuals who have pooled their resources towards a common goal and as the corporation is comprised of individuals, why are the rights of the individuals to act collectively artificially limited?

to use an example: a labor union is similar to a corporation in as much as it is a collective of individuals who have pooled their resources (in this case labor vs capital) towards a common goal.



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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Your point doesn't follow. Individuals have a right to bear arms, but collections of
individuals do not therefore have the right to form private armies. The rights granted under the U.S. Bill of Rights are all enjoyed by the individual.
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TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Don't let Xe (aka Blackwater) find out... n/t
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Doc_Technical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. To the best of my knowledge,
no corporation has been drafted into the military
or has been required to serve on a jury.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Mentioned the first,
missed the second. Thanks.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. Military draft
It can be argued (and correctly IMHO) that corporations -- especially in the transportation industry, can be drafted. All US Based Airplanes, railcars, maritime shipping, etc. can be conscripted in a time of war, although that hasn't been done since WWII.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. I have one that might be hiding in your list, but I don't think I see it.
Corporations are LEGAL entities.

Wikipedia uses this definition ... "A corporation is a legal entity that is created under the laws of a state designed to establish the entity as a separate legal entity having its own privileges and liabilities distinct from those of its members." (this statement is also referenced to ... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corporation)

The main points are

1) Corporations are legal entities, as and such, they exist only via legislation.

2) A corporation has "privileges and liabilities distinct from those of its members". If it exists "distinct" from its members (people), then it can't have the exact same Constitutional freedoms as "people". In fact ... per #1, corporations only exist thanks to legislation. People exist regardless of legislation.
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dpibel Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. Minor correction
Headnotes are indeed a summary of the holdings in a case. But they have no precedential value, and judges do not read headnotes to determine how to rule. They read the text of the case.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Thanks for the correction
I shall clarify that this is one instance in which they have done just that, which makes the case even more dodgy.
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bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. They can be owned.
Human slavery is, at least legally, not allowed.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Yeah, I did go down that road
that owning shares in a corporate person would violate the 13th Amendment, but when you read the text of the 13th and the court rulings on slavery, they have an out (their "servitude" is voluntary).

In the course of researching this angle, I learned of the 1988 ruling in UNITED STATES v. KOZMINSKI, where, when you strips away all the tortured legalese, we learn that it is possible to legally own someone.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/487/931.html
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. As someone here wrote,
I won't believe corporations are people until Texas executes one.
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Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. Can we marry a corporation?
Can they adopt children?

Didn't think so. They are people - not.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I want to marry Goldman Sachs
I can divorce it later and make out like a bandit.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
32. They only exist to make money for their investors.
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 09:55 PM by rucky
That's their entire being. They're not moral beings, they're not immoral, either (contrary to what you said). They're amoral. If they were people, their personalities would most closely match that of a psychopath. I don't blame them for it, but as purely a profit-seeking entity, they are not concerned with human rights related to preservation of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for all. Sure, they do some some good for society and plenty of bad, too, but that's all incidental. The social benefit only comes if the rewards outweigh the risks. Again, not their fault, social value is just not the purpose of their creation.

In a truly free and fair market, they do this from the merits and value of the goods & services they produce. But if permitted, they would gain profits by cutting corners - and they seem to do that more often than not. Cutting corners on labor costs, quality, misrepresentation & fraud, environmental crimes, lying to consumers, and influencing the government that's supposed to be protecting our quality of life. It's a sound business model if the rewards outweigh the risks. So without regulation, there's absolutely no incentive for them to be good citizens, good neighbors, etc. The only thing protecting the fabric of our society from corporations pursuing profitable action that is destructive and exploitative to the rest of us are regulations. If they truly were people, half of them would be in jail, but as long as they can influence the law and government winks then turns a blind eye, we are victims to their amoral nature.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. They are sociopaths
And while they may be amoral, their processes and end results are mostly immoral.
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MFrohike Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Existence and duty
Natural persons do not require a charter to be born.

The only duties a corporation is subject to are paying taxes and following the law. Citizens are subject to jury duty and conscription. These duties, which are for the benefit of the society and the republic, give rise to the rights of political participation. In effect, via Citizens United, corporations have been given unbalanced rights. They have been allowed political participation without concurrent duties.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. The answer is simple: they're just not human
Allow me to paraphrase Sylvester and Sylvester, Jr.:

Corp, Jr.: Father, you're just not human!!
Corp. : Of course, I'm not human; I'm a corporation!!
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
35. Unlike humans, corporations can merge repeatedly ...
combining the strengths and power of the merged companies, while shedding liabilities. A small corp becomes a medium-size corp becomes a powerful megacorp, with no upper limit in principle, and without the certainty of a timely death.

Humans have to deal with whatever strengths and liabilities they have. No hive minds yet.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
36. The ONLY evidence that supports corporations as being people is that I've been fucked by so many.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
38. Because they are nothing more than a legal construct and lack sentience.
They aren't even a being of any description. They aren't even AI, they are simply an organization made of people in a relationship to seek profit without individual responsibility.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
39. If it has a pulse it is a person,,. If it does not, it is NOT a person
a collection of people is NOT a super-person.. it's just a collection of people.
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
40. Not created by union of sperm & egg
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
43. In closing,
please consider cremation for your (un)loved corporate friends.
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