They're baaack! School vouchers once again being proposed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Florida School Vouchers Take a Makeup Test

It’s been a bad decade for school vouchers, once a major plank of Republican education policy. Both President Reagan and the first President Bush championed the programs, which give kids cash to help pay for private school. Then the policy was dropped from No Child Left Behind, President Obama excluded it from Race to the Top, and last year Congress defunded the nation’s only federal voucher program. But now momentum seems to be shifting—at least at the state level.

Four new GOP governors have backed voucher programs, including three that also have Republican majorities in their legislatures. The most intriguing reforms are in Florida, where Gov. Rick Scott is the first to propose making vouchers available to all students, not just those in low-income areas. He hopes the distinction will satisfy a federal law requiring a “clear and uniform” public-education system. There may, in fact, be something new under the sun.

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/16/florida-school-vouchers-take-a-makeup-test.html

[TheKentuckian]

1. It never goes away but seems to be picking up steam among Democrats as well.

[DrDan]

7. you mean like the WH?

[bluestateguy]

2. They're going to find a lot of opposition from affluent suburbanites

You know why? Because their neighborhood schools are good and functional, or they have their kids in private school already. In any case, these parents will oppose vouchers because they don't want "those people" (poor and/or minority) bringing kids into their schools.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. A lot of Catholic schools refuse to take them

They don't want government money and the requirements that may bring.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. You are right

Accepting even one penny of government money makes them abide by federal laws. Like non-discrimination.

[Recursion]

24. Though there's nothing that makes them *keep* the students they accept

Which is the principle weakness of charter programs, also; schools that lose students need to take a bigger hit than the initial funding they got with the students (same for traditional publics, which have unfortunately started to learn this technique).

[WinkyDink]

12. Au contraire. More $$ in their pockets, while schools can refuse anyone they want.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Not true

They are obligated to abide by anti-discrimination laws when they take federal dollars. I used to teach in Catholic schools and our boards did not support vouchers for this reason. At that time, most of the private schools in this area were not supportive of vouchers.

[Recursion]

22. Not if they take vouchers

The King's shilling, and all that.

[Buzz Clik]

3. Properly formulated, school vouchers can work.

Improperly planned and executed, they are a disaster.

But, that's the case in every aspect of public education. Vouchers is simply variance of the central theme.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Do tell

Just how do they work?

[Buzz Clik]

17. You're a school teacher, right?

Are you truly unaware of any instances of the use of school vouchers where most people were satisfied with the system?

An example would be the Colorado Springs school district. Lots of choices, and it seems as well received as the previous system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I believe the Colorado Springs program is privately funded.

That's a whole different ballgame.

[Buzz Clik]

40. It's publicly funded. The governor signed it into law.

It's limited in scope, but that's partly why it works.

http://www.schoolchoiceinfo.org/topics/item.cfm?id=30

(edited to add a link)

[WinkyDink]

13. No, they cannot. Unless you'd care to describe the proper formulation?

[Buzz Clik]

18. Ah, well, that's the end of it then.

zzzzt!

[jwirr]

8. That should not surprise us - one of the goals of repugs is to destroy

all government services. This is one of them.

[madrchsod]

9. vouchers never cover the full cost of education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. And the extras are beyond the budget of a low income family

I went to private schools. My parents had to pay for all of my books, my uniforms, field trips, meals, and all other extra curriculars. Our coaches were contracted and their fees were funded completely by the kids on the teams. I was on a scholarship in high school and my dad worked an extra job to make the money needed to pay for all of my extras.

There is no voucher program yet that pays for everything.

[WinkyDink]

10. "Vouchers to all"? Why not FINANCE the PUBLIC SCHOOLS?? Do these greed-heads have any idea of the

numbers---staffing, pupils, class sizes, athletes, bus runs, band members, etc.---school administrators need in, say, July to be able to sufficiently allocate resources and personnel, including maybe hiring more staff?

This is simply ANOTHER disguised plan to get MORE TAX DOLLARS into the hands of the wealthy. IOW: This will reduce the private-school costs of the rich, while NOT BEING ENOUGH to cover a poor student's tuition.

[Recursion]

23. Because, for a lot of reasons, the most-funded districts have the most problems

With the result that people look on them as irredeemable money pits. The big urban districts with all their issues spend much more per pupil than the suburban districts around them. So people look at that and hear calls for more funding with skepticism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. And all you have to do is look at energy bills alone and you can see why the cost is higher

Suburban districts with newer buildings have lower energy costs. Duh.

Then there's transportation. Here in our metro area, you absolutely have to have a car if you live in the suburbs. But in the urban core, there is a bus system and you can survive without a car. So the urban district provides transportation for more kids than the suburban districts.

One interesting development is we are seeing lower middle class families move from inner ring suburbs into the urban core when losing a home due to foreclosure or unemployment. Many times, they have also lost their car.

Field trips. Suburban districts expect parents to pay for the entire cost. But if urban districts serving largely low income kids had that expectation, there wouldn't ever be any field trips.

Another good comparison is just this past week we had a bad snowstorm and all the schools were out for 2 days. But the kids in the urban core were out for 4 because of heating and broken pipe issues in the schools - older buildings.

I wish more people would understand how different school funding needs are across income groups before they decide the larger expense of urban districts is wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Well that is the obvious solution

:applause:

[salin]

11. *sigh* Mitch Daniels just jumped on the bandwagon in Indiana

I don't think it had ever gotten seriously play here, before. But Mitch just recently decided to set his privatizing eyes upon education.

[yurbud]

14. I'm glad to hear the GOP is doing everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot

Obama probably blocked it because he knew it was a loser politically, but not enough people have figured out that charter schools are stealth privatization.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. A lot of Democrats support vouchers too

[Recursion]

21. Which ones?

Obama and Duncan are both loudly anti-voucher; the push for charters is an attempt to take the oxygen out of the voucher movement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Not really. Obama's kind of been all over the map on vouchers.

"If there was any argument for vouchers, it was 'Alright, let's see if this experiment works,' and if it does, then whatever my preconceptions, my attitude is you do what works for the kids," the senator said. "I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn. We're losing several generations of kids and something has to be done." - Barack Obama

Obama Offers D.C. Voucher Program Extension for Existing Students
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/05/06/obama_proposes_extending_dc_vo.html

But before that he said no
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2009/04/22/obama-wrong-on-dc-school-vouchers-and-hypocritical-just-like-congress

And this is from 2004
http://thisweekineducation.blogspot.com/2004/11/barak-obama-strong-on-charters-open.html

[Recursion]

26. Thanks; I had only caught the "no" parts of that arc

Though even his "yes" seems to be "well, hell, give it a try and see if it works" which is a lot different from "support" in most senses. Part of having an anti-ideological President, I guess.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. I don't really know how to answer the question of where he stands on this issue

I'm inclined to think he probably supports vouchers because he supports charters. BUT I also know that many charter supporters are opposed to vouchers.

So who knows :shrug:

[Recursion]

31. Count me as one of those

I see vouchers as all the drawbacks of charters with none of the benefits; charters without a chartering process.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. There is also often even less accountability for schools receiving vouchers

They aren't required to test all their kids like public schools. I'm not sure how well the private schools would jump at accepting voucher kids if we mandated they administer state tests.

[yurbud]

41. too many Democratic pols will support whatever they are paid to.

[Rex]

27. I wonder at what point Floridians lost the ability to govern themselves?

Texans know the feeling.

[JCMach1]

28. Vouchers have always been welfare for the wealthy to pay for private school...

Better make a modest proposal now to means-test this BS.

How can Florida possibly fall more into the crapper? Rick Scott found a way!

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Brownback wants vouchers in Kansas

Next week a right wing Koch funded group is bringing in some guy from Florida to speak to Kansans about the 'transformation' of Florida schools. I about gagged when I saw that email. LOL

[JCMach1]

57. Wow

:(

[SoCalDem]

35. Republican bad ideas NEVER go away..

They get put on a shelf , and later get taken down, re-painted, shined up a bit and put out there for all to see..over and over and over

[aikoaiko]

36. As a father with a 5 year old looking at private schools, I would use them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I was educated in private schools

I was not enrolled in a public school until my junior year in college.

I had an absolutely wonderful K-12 education, especially high school. Hands down, just outstanding.

But as a parent, we chose public schools for our children because the one thing missing from my own experience was what we wanted most for our own kids - diversity. I realized I could make up any academic shortcomings (fortunately there weren't any) but I couldn't provide a diverse peer group.

And we don't regret the decision.

[aikoaiko]

38. I think what bothers me the most is that my choice will be perceived as abandoning public schools

and I don't want my son to think he is better than public school kids.

The private schools that I'm looking at have a nice blend of kids. Diversity is not a big issue.

I grew up in a fantastic school district in NJ. Its still ranked very high nationally. I didn't know back then that it was strange for a high school to have its own planetarium and electron microscope. I was lucky that that my hard working parents choice to put every sent they could into a mortgage in an affluent area.

Now I live in a city where 30% of sixth graders from public school get suspended. It sounds amazing they report the suspension rates in the local papers. Some people say the high suspension rates are due to zealous enforcement of petty rules. Others says its a rough school district. I don't know but it worries me.

There are a few schools with better academics and lower suspension rates, but I'm not sure if I can afford to get us in those school areas.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I'll tell you the same thing I told my sister

You can't really judge a school unless you try it out. There are also pockets of excellence in every district, even those perceived as 'bad'.

In your case I'd look at the kindergarten suspension rate instead of 6th grade. And by the time your child is in 6th grade this could be a completely different school.

I spent many years teaching in the best school in a 'bad' district. I have also worked in a 'bad' school with a new principal who turned the school around. Many things are possible and school climates can change overnight.

Good luck to you.

[Recursion]

42. I don't want this to come out the wrong way, but...

...this explains a lot.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Meaning?

[Recursion]

44. That you didn't have to survive the schools you are convinced are best for everyone

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. What a horrible thing to say

The public school district I grew up in was (still is) outstanding.

Have you always been rude or is it just the way you act online?

[Recursion]

46. You have repeatedly asked interlocuters what their experience teaching public schools is

And I was pointing out that your experience attending public schools seems to be nil.

[JackDragna]

47. I support the vast majority of p2blib's positions..

..and I'm both a teacher and a product of public schools. Your point?

[Recursion]

48. That for 12 years I was regularly brutalized by fellow students

And for that entire time the faculty didn't care. And some of those faculty taught things like, for instance, that the sun went around the earth, and were basically ossified into their classrooms, and that coming out of that I determined that there's a better governance model for schools than this, and yet I'm yelled at for saying that by a person who didn't even have to go through that shit.

[JackDragna]

50. I'm sorry that happened to you.

I didn't have it so easy in school, either. Whether someone had the same experience, however, does not reduce the veracity of any criticism directed your way, or any other comments the poster might make, even if they agree with you. You're making yourself sound like you're taking potshots at someone based on their life experience.

[Recursion]

51. OK, but the nearly constant reaction to any criticism of public schools is...

..."how long have you been a teacher?"

I think "how long were you a student in public schools?" is equally valid.

[JackDragna]

52. That's not quite the same animal.

Students don't often have a complete view of what goes on behind the scenes in a school. It's not to say their views have no value, but there are decisions made for reasons they cannot always comprehend adequately.

I am a product of a public school education, completely. To me, it is not a matter of whether a person had this role or that job when it comes to education policy. I teach, but it doesn't make my opinions any more sacrosanct. What's important to me are ideas and the application of sound methodology to approaching our nation's education problems. In this sense, I tend to take the side of teachers, since they represent the greatest percentage of education professionals who have constant, direct contact with students. What concerns me about the education "reform" movement in its current state is that its backers seem to be monied interests, often with little educational experience, who make claims about what needs to be done without providing any type of evidence their claims are reasonable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. And how old are you now?

I was bullied by snotty republican girls because I was the only one in my class who didn't belong to a country club. I was a scholarship kid and not a day went by in 4 years that one of those bitches didn't remind me that I was not worthy of being their friend. And I wasn't allowed to complain because my mother didn't want to make a scene. After all, I was so lucky to be able to go to this school full of snotty little bitches who grew up to marry snotty republican men who remind me of George Bush.

And guess what? I learned to appreciate the education I was getting - which was top notch - and to this day THAT is what I choose to remember when I think of my high school years. I got over worrying about not being accepted because there wasn't a fucking thing I could do about it. And eventually, I earned the respect of a few of those girls. Not that I wanted it, but a few of them grew up and expressed remorse. That was the best revenge.

Oh and as a teacher, I absolutely will NOT tolerate bullying because I know exactly how the kid being bullied feels.

Now you can either wallow in your past crappy experiences or pick up and move on. We all go through shit. But we all don't let it define who we are.

[Recursion]

49. And, ironically, p2bl and I are on the same side of this thread

since we're both anti-voucher. I was just honestly irked when she admitted she hadn't had to go to a public school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Why the FUCK would that irk you?

Are you easily irked?

Since when is attending public schools a pre-requisite for teaching in them?

Just bizarre.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Well if it's something I "repeatedly" do, then surely you can post a link

I also fail to see how not attending public schools has anything to do with my expertise, since I have taught in them for 31 years.

[JackDragna]

56. Don't let it get you down.

We fight the good fight, my friend. Just about every teacher I know hear, including yours truly, has your back.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. .....

:hug:

Thank you.

[JackDragna]

59. "Here," even.

This is what I get for posting late at night.

[upi402]

60. of course, and investigate Obama while ignoring BushCo -n/t