OWS...Who are the "Black Bloc"....are they agents provocateur?

[masmdu]

So, the non-violence of OWS is one of it's biggest assets.

I was watching the video from Oakland and saw the Black Bloc folks simultaneously doing damage to property and more importantly damage to OWS public support.

Who is the Black Bloc?

Surely with all the citizen media at street level these people can be identified.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. It's a tactic. It used to be a movement

Some are what they look like...you know anarchists, some are agent provocateours. And a few are probably badged. What is the exact mix is a good question.

[2pooped2pop]

4. yes.

yes, when I said this was the anarchist that are always at protest, always in black, always masked, someone suggested that it is the usual group of anarchist with probably a few agents in there egging them on. Not that they would need much.

I know when I go to any camps or protests, I am definitely going to give the people in black more consideration. Try to get some pics maybe with the masks down before the action starts, (if they ever do let them down) and see if we can match any of them up to cops in the crowd at other events.

I do not believe they are all agents. I saw these guys do a love in with nudity and non specific gender loving on an AMerican flag in 05. I don't think they were cops. I spoke to some and they identified themselves to me as anarchist.

They need to be brought aboard the peace train and made to understand that their juvenile and petty crimes is bad for the whole movement. I think we can bring most aboard.

[applegrove]

34. +1

[redqueen]

2. In Greece it turns out they were either working for the police

or were police officers.
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2011/10/22/greek-communist-party-accuses-police-for-links-with-rioting-hoodies/

[amyrose2712]

3. Black bloc From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc


snip

Police infiltration
Police and security services have infiltrated black blocs with undercover officers. Since all members conceal their identities, it is harder to recognize infiltrators. Allegations first surfaced after several demonstrations. At the 2001 G8 summit in Genoa, amongst the many complaints about the police <21> there was mention of video footage in which "men in black were seen getting out of police vans near protest marches."<22> In August 2007, Quebec police admitted that "their officers disguised themselves as demonstrators." On these occasions, some were identified by genuine protesters because of their police-issue footwear.<23><24>

[eShirl]

5. +1

[JohnnyRingo]

35. "black cop shoes".

There's a stereotype that spans the generations. I even recall an age old comedy bit that covered the phenomenon.

I guess they can don the fake beards and tattoos. They can master the lingo and learn the customs, but I suspect even Serpico wore cop shoes under his serape. It's all he'd owned since his days at the academy.

[LeftyMom]

6. A black bloc is a tactic, not an organization.

That and the outfits make identifying participants difficult, which is intentional.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Here in SF --

They are white teens whose sole purpose is to fuck with cops. They have made an appearance at every protest/march I have gone to here in the last 15 years -- they care nothing about the cause but about the opportunity provided.

They annoy the fuck out of me. They need to go back home to Mom and Dad in the suburbs they come from.

[arcane1]

8. Well put!

But you were much nicer about what should be done with them :)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

16. :)

:hi: The night he SFPD was going to raid the camp our local BB teens were there, just salivating at the chance to go up agains the cops. When the SFPD announced the raid was off and us OWS started to cheer in celebration, I kid you not, they looked absolutely crestfallen, and one even shouted out "Charge the cops!" They were roundly ignored, and had to BART home to fight another day. :D

[mulsh]

17. I"ve been in most marches in SF since the first Moratorium March

and black block stooges have been a side show in all of the marches since the 80's. They're easy to spot what with all that black and black bandanna masks and stuff. cowardly little shits - real revolutionaries stand up for what they believe and identify themselves.

I hope the Occupy groups develop effective ways to combat these people, too bad they can't work with the local police but I, as others do,have long suspected that some of the black bloc stooges carry badges.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. I marched in a huge pro-choice rally --

here in SF back in the 80s -- yup, they were there. :D It looks like OWS is on it, but it will be a challenge for them. At Occupy SF we were asked to intervene if we saw "anyone" trying to get violent or destroy things -- short of encircling the little turds and trying to move them away, I'm not sure what else we could do. :shrug:

[Mz Pip]

30. They've been around forever

I remember them from the '68 Democratic Convention. I knew a couple of them in an acquaintences of friends kind of way. They really thought it was cool to be "agitating." Unfortunately that's what the media and the opposition focuses on. THe little twits did their part to help elect Nixon IMHO.

I really hope they don't dirty up OWS.

[Xithras]

9. Anarchist troublemakers

Or, as they call them in the PNW, they're the "Idiots from Eugene".

Anarchism is a genuine political movement, albeit a small one. Still, they've been burning down buildings, smashing things, and occasionally killing people for at least a century. Their roots far predate the modern police state and infiltration tactics. The 1920 Wall Street bombing that killed nearly 40 people was carried out by anarchists, who had been engaged in a series of anti-capitalist movements across America at the time.

The Black Bloc (a relatively modern militant offshoot of the anarchist movement) doesn't target people, but it's generally a continuation of the same "smash the system" mentality that has always existed in anarchisms more militant wings.

And, yes, some of them are cops. IMHO, cop provocateurs are the minority, but they certainly do exist within their ranks. Even without those cops, the BB would still exist and would still be smashing crap.

Anarchism is a political philosophy for idiots. The behavior of anarchists reflects that.

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. You have a warped view of real anarchists

Equatiung anarchists with people who like to burn smash bomb and kill is like equating white people with the KKK. Yeah some whites are in the KKK and they like to say they represent the white race, and a few "anarchists" embrace burning and bombing and they may say that they represent anarchy. Do more research on the Spanish Civil War.

[Xithras]

15. I'm quite familiar with it.

I thought my last sentence summed up my feelings fairly well. All anarchists are idiots. Sure, not all anarchists are militant idiots, but even the peaceful ones apparently lack the intellectual capacity to understand that they are supporting a political and economic policy that only "sounds good" when you're stoned.

Depending on my mood and the particular subject, my political ideals generally range between state socialism and democratic socialism, which means that my political views are fundamentally opposed to the anti-statist positions embraced by the anarchist movement. If I wanted to be anti-government, I'd vote Republican.

[MadrasT]

18. OK, this is funny...

but even the peaceful ones apparently lack the intellectual capacity to understand that they are supporting a political and economic policy that only "sounds good" when you're stoned.

:rofl:

I don't know why but that struck my funny bone... I've had similar thoughts about anarchism.

Cheers,
Madras

[themadstork]

19. Yeah, you know nothing at all about anarchism.

Cheers.

[Xithras]

22. Mob rule. Destruction of the state. Pervasive anti-intellectualism.

What more is there to know?

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. Anti-authoritarianism is the opposite of mob rule. Then again, Thomas Paine and others

Were left-libertarians and their "mob rule" is what overthrew the British.

Note that I don't consider myself an anarchist. But my left libertarian principles stem from underlying cultural beliefs.

(I prefer the term civil libertarian or Populist, precisely because left implies the sort of establishmentarian philosophy that is every bit as unpopular in the US as anarchism)

Authoritarian culture is sick and anti-democratic. What most Americans call "anarchism" is simply people preaching a return to direct democracy, i.e. the status quo for small-d democrats 200 years ago.

[Tom Rinaldo]

32. OWS essentially functions using anarchist theory

Anarchy isn't anti-organization, all but extreme far right anarchists promote cooperation. Anarchy supports organizational models that embrace bottom up rather than top down decision making. It is against forced compliance models of social organization. What might look like a mob to some looks like a Union to others, it often depends on where you sit. If I ever met the people you are describing, I douby I would like them either.

[themadstork]

33. Interesting that you mention anti-intellectualism.

When you try to bash something about which you only have cartoonish misconceptions, it is only you who looks foolish. We see this all the time with the fundies who rage against teh evolutionz; no need to engage in it here.

[formercia]

10. Regardless of intentions, the Black Bloc is counterproductive.

They need to go do their thing somewhere else.

Perhaps a spate of Citizen Arrests would urge them towards that goal. Protesters need to get proactive. One tack would be to ask anyone dressed as an obvious Black Bloc, to leave. If they want to be part of the Global Evolution, they need to behave. If they can't show their face, they can't be part of an open movement.

[hunter]

11. Don't "ask" them to leave, tell them to leave!

Being inclusive and polite is a fine thing, but some folks are simply trouble.

[flamingdem]

21. good idea, but they'd fight like crazy if held down

goes against their free as a bird mentality

[yodermon]

12. Here they are in the G20 in Toronto. It's so amatuerish it's comical.

they head straight for the police line and cross over with pats on the back from the cops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XgEI5dCrE

check out the scary cop-lady :rofl:

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. Another reason I'm not too worried n/t

[Zorra]

13. Did you mean the

"Blackwater Bloc"?

They will never be identified nor arrested.

They may arrest a few clueless teenage wannabe anarchists though.

[inna]

23. They're heavily infiltrated - heavier than any other anti-(establishment) group, perhaps.

I almost wrote, "anti-war group" - because that is the context I mainly know them from! Hell, they've been ever present at every single protest I've ever been to - they're sort of ubiquitous and omnivorous, in the same way the Mumia people are!


And I don't mean it in a bad way, they just always show up for protests - which is... Fucking Awesome as far as I'm concerned! (I could care less if I'm in the minority here - in fact, I would like to state that I find blanket demonization of BB deplorable and entirely fitting the establishment's agenda.)


Now, the demographics of the BB I'm familiar with might be specific for the Bay Area - lots of (very) young Goth types, lots of pale girls with Black #1 hair (lol, i know cuz... been there, done that! hair, that is!)... Mostly completely harmless and - in most protests i've been to - non-violent; although I *have* seen them throw things and *respond* to police violence. In general, they tend to stand their ground and be more assertive/alert?/"militant" than your average protester; I also have seen them show genuine solidarity - which for me, based on my experience, is unquestionable. (And yes, they do identify and are known as the Black Bloc contingent, not just 'anarchists'.)


And yes, agent provocateurs are more likely to pose as the BB than any other contingent - for a whole number of reasons I don't have time to go in right now. The bottom line - do not confuse the two; two entirely different animals. Although the Black Bloc kids make an easy scapegoat/favorite target for the pro-corporate, anti-resistance narrative.

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. It's an inappropriate tactic for this particular movement.

But it is odd to see all the Concern popping up all of a sudden on DU for something that is supposedly a dead issue.

God knows what they would say if there was actual unrest in the country. We can accuse other protesters of conspiracy to incite a riot. :eyes:

And note that OWS (and actual radicals) are both quite capable of resisting the advice of provocateurs.

[inna]

28. agreed and thank you!

:hi:

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. Wow, some of the responses on this thread are fairly juvenile. Yes, lets...

* Kick anyone out of Occupy protests who wears black or refuses to identify themselves

* Photograph people concealing their faces and pass their identity on to the cops

* Perform "citizens arrests" on "suspected anarchists"

* Return to the leaderless, consensus driven General Meetings with nary a clue about their origins
(so-called idiots from Europe)

* Ignore the fact that OWS was instigated in part by Anonymous

* Continue to spam DU with concern threads about anarchists in a SINGLE city (or two cities) where
most DUers apparently happen to live, while Occupy in the rest of the country is barely holding on

[2pooped2pop]

36. I was not passing identity on to the police

but rather, comparing them to the police. This could help us find more police provocateurs like you I'm sure have seen in the videos on here. And no I wasn't lining em up. I was being a little more covert about it. It could be very valuable in the law suits that are sure to come if it could be proven that even one window smasher was a cop.

And I think suggestions on how to deal with these actions, that the press are using to turn public opinion away from us, is a better thing than jumping in and telling everyone how juvenile THEY are about it.

[War Horse]

29. It ain't that hard

Do you attend a protest fully intending to act peacefully?

(While realizing, of course, that however much you fight it you might lose it at some point, depending on how things turn out...)

Or do you go in with your adrenaline level set to 11, while viewing all the peaceful protesters as "sheeple"?

If your answer is "the latter", you're probably Black Bloc material.

And yes, Police infiltration certainly is an issue.

[Fire Walk With Me]

31. Police. They already have proof:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=630232&mesg_id=630232

"It worked so well before; let's use it once more." -Front 242