This sexual harassement thingie

[WingDinger]

What I have heard noone talk about, is saying stop it. Men can still ask women out socially. They can tell a non pc joke. Etc. With care, and absolutely stopping when asked to, the first time. As a boss, you should exercise extreme care, and consider that it might not be permissible to your employer, or as usual, just plain ill advised.

But most importantly, stopping immediately, and not revisiting it, if asked. Using this method, folks such as Clarence, would not be brought before us as buffoons. The fact that they didnt pay attention to "stop it", makes them bullies. Maybe this is more important to our judgement of their characters than that they are RANDY.

The level of respect he had for those he considered his UNDERLINGS, surely will present itself when we all would be underlings, and not in a good way.

[whathehell]

1. You've got to tell them to "stop it" with a law and

a corporate culture that takes it seriously.

My husband has had several men in his company fired for sexual harassing women on the job.

[WingDinger]

76. Do you understand, that if you make unintended comments legally actionable,

Whether or not she objected, there will be an unconcious not hiring of women anywhere blue collar men work? Or really any men. Out of sheer over reacting self preservation?

[whathehell]

78. Do you understand that most men are not that stupid?

and that they KNOW the difference between

between a compliment and a lewd remark?..Duh.

[seabeyond]

2. maybe if our society, media, ads were not continually telling our males this is who they are, cannot

help it, in their dna and promoting this behavior at every turn, men would get the message and "stop it". but they dont. instead feminists are blaimed, women told to liten up, and men continue.

the biggest deterrant eveyrwhere i worked was male bosses that would not allow, even a little. and made it clear. ensuring a comfortable work environment for all. where i worked, the other male employees would not giggle and grunt when another male treated a woman disrespectfully, reinforcing that behavior.

[Bunny]

3. Why is the burden ALWAYS on the woman?

I really wish men would make up their minds about this. You want us to enforce appropriate workplace behavior, but when we do we become bitches and c-words who can't take a joke. Either way, we lose and maybe that's by design. After all, why should you have to take any responsibility for your own behavior? Just let your id operate, and wait for feedback. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

4. tired of being the bitch

two nights in a row at the dinner table i made this comment.

tuesday, about kids grades and school work. the only thing i am on their ass about. the ONLY thing i am on their ass about. i said, i am tired of being the bitch. i say something, yawl see bitch.

tuesday, bought a watermelon at grocery store. too bad to eat, once i cut open. was gonna take back to store. they all know me. but i have taken things back in the past. probably a third of what i should have taken back. hubby asked, did i take watermelon back? no. i didnt feel like being the bitch, today.

but but but he says. we spend so much at that store.

ya, i understand. and still.... i wasnt in the mood to be the bitch today.

i am so damn tired if i do anything that a man would do, i am regarded as a bitch

and that is my bitch today

as i look at the watermelon i was not in the mood to return.

[WingDinger]

6. Unfortunately, Women have not shouldered initial responsibility of intergender social interaction.

No free lunch. I would trade responsibilities in many instances. And only bold comeons, with plenty of hubristic confidence wins the man his genetic imperative. Largely. Is this all womens fault? Nope. Plenty of paternalism got the ball rolling in our favor.


My mother rails against nature, when for instance ducks nag the poor female till she is raw and lacking feathers on her neck. Our, nor their natures are very pretty.

[seabeyond]

8. i was cutting teenage sons hair last night and having a conversation about girls asking guys out

are the girls doing it. why are they not doing it. are they paying their way. why are they not paying their way. wanting equality, but picking and chosing.

so, that part i can agree. it is not how i was or am, seeing how i didnt allow societal conditioning to direct my behavior.

but i call bullshit with the rest of your post

and that has nothing to do with sexual harassment in the work force. further, appears you dont get what that issue is about.

[WingDinger]

10. Oh I get it.

You will not stop the drive to interact by men. Sure, business/ common courtesy/ decorum should dictate no power games of any type. Sexual or otherwise. But, we all know that is not going to happen. So, we are left with common sense, to reign in the worst offenses, and place the power to stop any untoward advances with the woman, or individual with lesser power. To flout human, or generic animal nature is a fools game.

[seabeyond]

12. no. you really dont see. and if you read my post about placing the responsibility on the boss

and on the man, then you would better understand my position. thru experience, it is quite clear this is not an impossible feat, for a man to be respectful of women in a work environment. as i have said, in all the companies i have worked in, with all male bosses, and mostly male work force environment, it has always been stressed certain behavior was expected and all employees were able to meet that expectation, regardless of "human, or generic animal nature". part of the job, as a boss. that simple.

as a woman, i know that when i was young i did not have the courage, the experience, the knowledge, the fuck you ability. hence, why so many men go after the young. they are well aware they can take advantage of their inexperience, adn probably the young woman does not have the ability to stand up to the man. also, as the poster says, when the woman ever says anything she is the bitch. which you totally ignore.

it sets up the one that is harassed in a very uncomfortable position to continue on with their job, placing all the responsibility on her instead of the person who runs the show. who has the power and ability and confidence and authority to not allow this behavior.

do i want girls to have the confidence to speak up? damn right. but growing up takes time. and our young men and women need to be allow to get to that stage.

[WingDinger]

14. Then perhaps you can give us all your rules for asking out/ harrassing

women without taking ANY chance of bothering them.

[Name removed]

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[seabeyond]

25. there is a difference between harassment and asking a person out. there is a difference

from telling a joke and knowing when that joke is embarrassing, or putting a woman in her place. still, at my age, my father and father in law purposely tell me jokes, where it is about women knowing their place. they do it in front of other men and my boys. it is not a joke. it is not meant to be funny. it is to put me in my place, for whatever reason they feel the need to be dominate. everyone feels it. everyone knows. there is nothing subtle or hidden in it.

when i walk into a dept that allows a playboy calendar of a womans legs spread on the wall, and i have the three men standing their talking to me crudely, making insinuations, it is clear the person is to demean or humiliate me. when i have a man chatting with me, ask if i want to go out for a drink, and i say no thank you... and he accepts, there is nothing in that.

this is like so many other situations that some men refuse to honestly look at in order to dismiss or ignore or belittle a complaint from women.

harassing an employee is clearly using power to make the person uncomfortable. it is not merely getting to know a fellow worker, or asking a fellow worker out. you are combining the two. they are not the same animal. and most women dont see them as the same.

[Name removed]

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[randome]

30. It gets even more complicated...

...when emotional awkwardness rears its head. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying it's NOT always as clear-cut as it seems.

And that something both genders have to deal with.

[seabeyond]

31. a man knows damn well when he is harassing, insulting, demeaning, degrading, putting a woman in her

this is harassment. i have always known when i was being insulted. i have always known when i insulted. am i really that unusual. or just honest.

[WingDinger]

34. Are you aware of social experiments that have found that aggitation

is easily misstoke for attraction? That much of what makes us attractive to the opposite sex is teasing, goading, challenging? Were that not the case, it would be a hell of a lot easier. You dont always know when that will work.

Once I met a model. I said to her, do you know that smoking causes wrinkles? Cheeky yes. and do you know, she invited me to her bedroom with not much more to do than that?

[seabeyond]

36. so really, you want the ability to say what you like with no restriction and consideration, civility

or respect adn you expect everyone else to fall in line?

again, all my many years this whole thing has not been very complicated from what i see from showing interest in a perspective date to knowing when a person is "harassing, insulting, demeaning, degrading, putting a woman in her place".

i am sorry it is so very hard for you. not all women are going to be able to give you want you want to ensure you know where the line is. you just might find you tush in bosses office.

[randome]

35. I'm speaking from a male perspective, of course.

And I can't say I have personally seen much in the way of sexual harassment in the workplace over the years.

But I would imagine there are situations when it is NOT always clear. I don't know and I'm not trying to belittle your own experience, I'm just guessing.

On the other hand, if someone insults me, I'm not going to insist he/she be fired or disciplined. I'm just going to go about my job.

But that, too, may be because of my male 'upbringing'. It's a different perspective, I would say, coming from the traditionally 'stronger' gender perspective.

[seabeyond]

38. i was at an auto repair place

the man treated me like crap, dismissive, didnt listen to me. i was walking away with my 12 yr old son and he said, that man is sexist. i whipped my head to face my child, look at his face to see if he was serious. told him, ya, he was. he had never said anything like that before. he could see the man was disrespectful to me because i was a female.

my boys have paid attention. they are aware of the different behaviors. my husband can see it. i cannot believe that men are on this thread really saying they are clueless and do not understand.

my father ran a major corporation. he gets it. never allowed it. and the employees were respectful to one another, creating an environment where people wanted to work there. he was an example.

do you not get sexual harassment because you are a male not experiencing thru out life? yes. there is a thread, a poll, asking if anyone has been sexually harassed. a lot of stories on that thread. might want to read the many many experiences with it so you have a better idea.

a man rubbing his dick up against a woman. a man telling a vulgar, crude joke to embarass a woman. they do it on purpose.

as i have said, i have always worked in environments where the boss made it clear was not allowed. and it wasnt. so i didnt experience it either. maybe you have worked in those environments too.

[whathehell]

65. Of course there are situations that "are not always clear".That's the case in much of human behavior

Even when someone commits a homicide, it's not always clear

it was "murder", which is why we have

trials and things called "manslaughter",

but that's not an argument for eliminating such acts as crimes.

[randome]

67. No, you're right.

But from our third-party standpoint, it's not easy to make our own decision about alleged harassment cases.

There will always be a nugget of doubt that the woman might have been overly sensitive or that she might be using the allegation for personal gain.

I am NOT at all saying that this is the norm, I'm just saying that there is always that small doubt lurking in the corner of people's (mostly men's) minds.

[WingDinger]

74. Thus, inquiring whether or not she told him shut up.

It doesnt matter whether or not she was too sensitive. She tells him to STFU, and that is what he should do. Problem averted. mostly. To further that to, she had a problem, so we need to act, is reactionary. If the shitheel continues to intimidate, leer etc, THEN, it is time to act, LEGALLY. Whether she is TOO sensitive is MOOT.

[LanternWaste]

41. I would think the number one rule

I would think the number one rule (indeed, the only relevant rule) is to exercise respect, good judgement and common sense. :shrug: Do simply that, and there's no chance of harassment.



I would think that applies not merely to other sexes, but also to other races, other religions, other lifestyles, etc...

[whathehell]

66. You're playing dumb.....As stated below, comments like "nice ass" etc. are not "courtship" behavior.

[Name removed]

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[seabeyond]

29. i agree with almost all that you say. are girls taught at a very young age to manipulate males

thru their prettiness and do moms help to feed this? damn right. so do the dad that are telling girls they are princesses ect.. the best thing that happened to me is i was not allowed to play that game and was put into a competitive sport with both genders and we were all treated the same. i was raised the same as my brothers. i made a conscious decision as a teen that i would never use the "female wiles" to get my way because i always saw the unfairness not to mention, i expected equal, and there was nothing equal about that.

where we differ, is with the issue i have with men, and especially our young men today, i do not point the finger at any one gender. i see the way girls raised today is the fault of everyone, and media and society as a whole. but i feel the same with how our boys are raised.

i have always championed my sons when they recognize and call out the manipulation in girls and we have had disussions on it and what to watch out for.

but that is my point.

more people need to be having these discussions. and when we say, that is just the way boys are made or that is just being a girl, and not being clear that it is conditioned behavior that hurts all of us, we do no one any favors of either gender.

there is a book how to use your sexuality to get what you want in the workforce. in our culture today, these attitudes are being promoted. it pisses me off because it hurts all women. so there are women out their using their sexuality to get what they want, and a man is conditioned this is how women want to be treated. no, they are loser women to lazy to use their brains and they reduce the environment to use their body.

boys are being taught today all women are whores. then they treat all women like whores. their entertainment, porn. and all women are not whores and they get pissed.

ya, i think we need to rethink this.

[redqueen]

5. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. Because that's the law.

If it's not unwanted, it's courtship. Impossible to know beforehand.

[Bunny]

11. LOL!!

The law? :rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Yeah. The operative word is "unwanted". n/t

[LanternWaste]

42. it's quite simple...

"Impossible to know beforehand..." if not excising common sense and simple respect it's probably impossible. If using those tools though, it's actually quite simple... :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. No, it's not at all.

As they pertain to the law, advances come in two flavors: "wanted" and "unwanted". The latter are are illegal if they create a hostile working environment. In practice, there's only one way to learn which it is.

[LanternWaste]

46. Yes. it actually is.

Yes, it actually is quite easy.

Simply apply common sense, good judgement and respect. Repeatedly saying otherwise simply does not make it so... :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. .

"A clear implication of the "reasonable woman" standard is that it is not so much the intent (the "purpose," in the language of the law) of the alleged offender that should count in interpreting the gravity of acts of sexual harassment as, rather, the way in which these acts are perceived by the complainant (the "effect"). Subjective factors thus operate at every level of the sexual harassment scene."
-Daphne Patai, Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism

http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/servlet/DCARead?standardNo=0847689875&standardNoType=1&excerpt=true

[WingDinger]

60. Time for my harrassment story. I was in the office, vying for my wages.

I had moved, and got a stipend for such. They removed the sizeable stipend, making me much lower than my carreer warranted. They thought they had me screwed. I couldnt move, and it was assumed I was now a slave. I went off. they then said they heard me whistle, and accused me of aiming that at the cleaning lady. Being a sexual harrasser. When in actuality, I was doing so about my work. She was clear away and likely didnt even hear it. She didnt say no, and I didnt harrass. But I still had my job threatened by it. I quit that day.

[whathehell]

63. Comments like "nice ass" or something equally graphic, are not standard "courtship" behavior

Get real.:eyes:

[county worker]

9. Men don't have to make up their minds. Men who abuse women have to make up their minds.

I resent women who paint all of us with a broad brush. That is just as wrong as anything you feel slighted by.

[Bunny]

13. And I resent the OP, who wants men to do what men do and force the women sort it out.

Try to follow along.

[WingDinger]

15. This is where you run into tro0uble.

Liberals are known as pie in the sky disrupters of reasonable flow. They will use a shotgun for what they view as to them at least, not unreasonable, and to others, burdensome.

To not even discuss qwhether or not Cain was told to pound sand, reveals this idealism unto absurdity. YES, the boss should not ask anyone out that he is not apriori certain will take him up on it. But how to get to that certainty, is key.

[randome]

20. I love these kind of threads.

Because I like the dichotomous nature of the arguments. But this is a tough one.

Could it be boiled down to this?
1. Women could be less sensitive.
2. Men could be more sensitive.

Just for the sake of argument. I honestly don't know where I should plant my flag but I DO know that I won't make inappropriate jokes of any kind in the office. That seems like a small price to pay for greater harmony.

[WingDinger]

24. You cannot legislate could be's easily

[Lance_Boyle]

26. Just make it a non-binding resolution. ;-) n/t

[randome]

27. Right.

On the other hand, you can't allow men to behave however they want if that behavior is offensive to a large number of people and contributes to 'keeping women in their place'.

There is no easy answer to this on either side of the question. It's one of those things we all have to limp along with and try our best.

[seabeyond]

32. this is not about someone asking another out. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. It is if it is unwanted and results in a hostile work environment.

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/understanding-workplace-harassment-fcc-staff

[seabeyond]

48. i dont see asking a person out on a date as creating a hostile work environment.

Examples of actions that may create sexual hostile environment harassment include:
•Leering, i.e., staring in a sexually suggestive manner
•Making offensive remarks about looks, clothing, body parts
•Touching in a way that may make an employee feel uncomfortable, such as patting, pinching or intentional brushing against another’s body
•Telling sexual or lewd jokes, hanging sexual posters, making sexual gestures, etc.
•Sending, forwarding or soliciting sexually suggestive letters, notes, emails, or images

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. What you think isn't relevant. What I think isn't relevant.

If *someone* doesn't like being asked out on a date and the workplace environment is hostile as a result, it's harassment.

a) are you suggesting that your list is exclusive?
b) I've been told lewd jokes by co workers. I wasn't offended. Was it harassment? Of course not, and the reason is entirely because I wasn't offended. It had nothing to do with the intent of the person telling the joke.

[seabeyond]

56. again, it isnt about me... the link you posted said NOTHING about asking someone on a date.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Ever wonder about the wives of the pigs who sexually harass?

They approved of the same behavior sufficiently to marry the perpetrator.

It's incumbent on you to define the behavior as either wanted or unwanted and let him know which it is.

[randome]

23. Eh.

You don't KNOW why someone married someone. And someone who once might have said something offensive might not automatically fall into the role of a 'pig'.

[county worker]

33. Don't school me!

[Name removed]

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[whathehell]

64. Men who do NOT abuse women have to "make up their minds" as to who they support.

Women, or the men who abuse them...None of you here can

believe that women CAN be verbally abused.:eyes:

[caraher]

57. That's why I like this:

There definitely needs to be more focus on men being responsible for their own actions.

[Taverner]

21. Some men think they can get away with anything

And some men love shocking others

False-Alpha Syndrome

[DirkGently]

37. "Stop it's" fine, but at that point, the damage is done. Harrassment isn't an unconscious act

... so it's not really entitled to a free pass even once. I understand the impulse to shield people from making "one mistake," but it's not really a subtle line to cross, and too many would interpret "one warning" to mean "Sure, try it and see if anyone complains."

The whole point is supposed to be that no one HAS to tell anyone to stop it, because we all know better. We always have, really.

If someone who was normally scrupulous about these things somehow appeared to lose their mind for an instant, they'd likely get a "warning" anyway. But no one's entitled to act in a way that would cause another adult they work with to have to tell them to "stop it!" in the first place, right?

[seabeyond]

39. why am i talking to men in the posts above that act like they dont get it, then.

i personally feel a person knows when they are doing it. they act like it is part of a mating ritual in mutual respect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. His intent doesn't matter.

If the behavior is unwanted, it's illegal. If not, it isn't.

[seabeyond]

49. bullshit. you might want to re read what you posted for me above. nt

[DirkGently]

47. I understand why harrassers pretend it's a mystery. Non-harrassers I think just feel defensive.

The specter of someone theoretically getting you fired on false pretenses, or the idea that someone's sensitivities could be so finely attuned they'd interpret something in an unbalanced way.

I don't think that plays out in reality. In particular, I don't think men tiptoe around in the workplace, afraid to laugh or smile lest they fall prey to sexual harrassment rules. I don't think anyone's getting hammered for misunderstanding a social situation.

I think you don't subject your co-workers to your sexual thoughts, needs, or advances in the workplace, and it's not a mystery that the reason why is that it's a form of aggression. "You're stuck here with me, and I want something from you." It's not a matter of subtle tastes and interpretations as to why that's a problem.

I think men get that as well as women. Some would like to pretend they don't, and some I think just feel the need to defend against the theoretical possiblity of false persecution.

[seabeyond]

51. i agree with your post. that is what i have always experienced

why the posters above were throwing me. thank you for you explanation. appreciated.

[WingDinger]

52. Taking offense sometimes follows a fashion. My Mom, a lunch lady at a school

has been told many times NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT to tie the shoe of one of the kids, or risk losing your job for molestation.

[DirkGently]

58. Seems like a bad policy. Bet no one's been sued or arrested for tying a kid's shoes though.

Schools have become strange "zero tolerance" zones. But I don't think men are being sued, or even fired, over strange subjective interpretations of harassment. Cain apparently kept asking women up to his apartment. Not a hard thing to avoid, and not a mystery why it's offensive.

[whathehell]

69. Thank you, Dirk..It's good to hear from honest, non-defensive men here.

It's also rare...Let's hope you're a sign of change.:eyes:

[redqueen]

75. +1

[whathehell]

68. "Taking offense" at sexual harassment is about as much a "fashion" as taking offense at rape.

It's high profile as a "complaint" is only relatively recent because, like the latter,

men have been forced to take it seriously in relatively recent times.

It's really not related to shoe-tying.:eyes:

[WingDinger]

71. As I stated in post 60, sometimes it is.

[seabeyond]

72. that is really not an harassment thingie. the woman didnt know, nor say anything. it is really

all about your shitty company that you were working for. it is as far away from what we are discussing as it can be.

[WingDinger]

73. No, it's not. In both instances, noone cared to even ask if there was opposition. Told to stop

Sure, they complained in this instance. But, did they tell him to STFU

[whathehell]

77. As stated in post 58 and beyond, it's really not..

[redqueen]

62. +10^10^100

[seabeyond]

40. and something else wing, especially after so many posts ....harassement thingie

harassment THINGIE. thingie.... can you make it any more lite or dismissive. so how seriously do you take the subject

[WingDinger]

54. My point, which most certainly is valid, is to at least inquire into whether or not

NO was said. Without that, it is just more well, he should know what I want without having to ask.

[DirkGently]

59. I don't think you get a warning against propositioning a co-worker.

Haven't heard all the facts about Cain's case yet, but I'd thought the problem was in asking women he worked with up to his apartment.

Men aren't entitled to "take a shot" at asking women they work with to sleep with them. It's not a strange or arbitrary thing. That's an aggressive thing to do, and there's no basis to think it would be okay but for someone objecting to it.

[WingDinger]

61. I lNever said Cain wasnt a dumbass, that should be judged as nonpres

nonpresidential. Nor those asking women out at work as lame. But, the deeming of one sexual harrasser, is legal, and stigmatizing.

[lunatica]

50. The law already tells them to stop it and even to never start it.

In UC Berkeley all the staff and faculty have to do an online course about sexual harassment at work. You read what is considered sexual harassment and then you get multiple choice questions. You get a score at the end and it is put in your personnel file. It's the same with an ethics test.

A male boss can't even give a female staff member a simple compliment on her clothes because she can say he was sexually harassing her.

Of course not every woman would do that so I guess it can be overlooked in some cases. But the basis for a lawsuit is there.

[Sgent]

70. That maybe UC Berkley's Policy

but it has no basis in federal law.

Federal law only outlaws unwanted sexual attention. Until the reasonable person would know its unwanted, there is no harassment.

[mstinamotorcity]

79. Personally as a Woman I will Not be

sexually Harassed. If I think the comment is vulgar, I put whoever said it in there place right then. No I don't go through any special accommodations to the environment or place. if they got the Balls to run their foul comment out their mouth at that particular time and place, I have no problem letting them know I won't buy it at that time and place. The problem is that women always fear for their JOBS. If you must deal with blatant ignorance that is not the Job you need. Too Stressful. You can't work under those conditions. Men play that Boys will be Boys attitude until they meet real women who value themselves beyond their physical characteristics.

[WingDinger]

80. What I'm sayin" But even the less assertive can say stop it.

[redqueen]

81. If they make a vulgar comment, you have been harassed.

So yes, at that point, you have been sexually harassed.

All you're saying is that you will react. That's good, but it misses the point.

The point is that the 'sexual harassment thingie' isn't women's fault because they don't teach men not to act like jerks.

It's wrong to do it in the first place, it isn't natural, it isn't reasonable, it isn't justifiable, and it isn't excusable.

[whathehell]

82. Thank you, Redqueen. n/t

[redqueen]

83. My pleasure.

This stuff has to be repeated at every opportunity until most people understand it without having to have it explained.