Occupy demands: Let's radicalise our analysis

[PETRUS]

The crisis we face is caused by failed systems - replacing leaders while keeping the old system intact will not help.

by Robert Jensen

There's one question that pundits and politicians keep posing to the Occupy gatherings around the country: What are your demands?

I have a suggestion for a response: We demand that you stop demanding a list of demands.

The demand for demands is an attempt to shoehorn the Occupy gatherings into conventional politics, to force the energy of these gatherings into a form that people in power recognise, so that they can roll out strategies to divert, co-opt, buy off, or - if those tactics fail - squash any challenge to business as usual.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/11/201111191022862285.html

More at the link.

[MADem]

1. I thought the whole "One Demand" thing was voted off the island....

...some time ago?

It's real easy to say "Toss it out" when it ain't yours. Our system works well. We sometimes have to replace the parts, but the system itself functions, and was designed to function by some pretty smart folks. It may take time to jettison an asshole, but we can do it without having to kill his family and friends.

Of course, people who don't like the US would love for us to buy this bullshit argument.

I think we need to blame ourselves and our sheer laziness between presidential races to no small extent. I see a lot of bitching and moaning about Obama, but he doesn't make the law--Congress does. No one is willing to do the hard, difficult, back-breaking work of jettisoning an incumbent nitwit, but it CAN be done. It just takes gut-wrenching work, schlepping, precinct walking, fundraising, dialing-for-dollars, talking up the candidate, and a lot of help from "the little people" who are the ones who get out the vote. No one wants to do that--it takes time, it takes effort, and no one wants to stretch....they'd rather do the Keyboard Kvetch thing.

All a "revolution" will do is give us "Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss." We already have the power. We just need to exercise it instead of blaming others.

[PETRUS]

3. You're right about the "one demand" thing.

That appears to be an old discussion at this point. But I strongly disagree with the statement that "our system works well."

[MADem]

6. Right now, it needs some Mister Plumber--but it does not need to be replaced.

We have a mechanism that allows laws to be crafted to stop the abuse--it's the same system that has been cranking out laws to benefit corporations. We need more WELLSTONES in the Senate, and "we, the people" have the power to make that happen--if "we, the people" get up off our asses and vote in off-years, and do the shit-work for good candidates with little money. Campaign enthusiasm, effort, organization and support can make up for a lack of corporate cash--but it takes boots-on-the-ground hard work.

If a bunch of kids can shut down a port in Oakland for several hours, surely a nation of determined people from sea to shining sea can put lawmakers who will make laws FOR us, and not against us, in office.

[PETRUS]

8. I understand that point of view.

But to say "it could be different" is an argument that could be used to justify any failed system. Also, I suspect (but I'm not sure) that you are taking a narrower view of what "the system" is than I am. I am 100% in favor of democracy (although I think single member district representation and first past the post, winner take all voting - which is what we have the US - is not the best arrangement), but our economic system consistently subverts democracy. And even during the best of times - say, the period of broadly shared prosperity and increasing domestic civil rights during the '50s and '60s - we were still behaving as a coercive empire internationally, infringing upon the rights of people outside of our borders, externalizing costs and mortgaging the future. I fully believe in the people's ability to manage their own affairs, both privately and publicly - call it democracy, call it crowdsourcing, whatever - but as long as our economic arrangements promote a too-dramatic accumulation of wealth in the hands of a minority and provide too-tempting incentives to bend, break, and change the rules, power will accrue to a few and there is every reason to believe it will be abused.

[MADem]

11. Our economic system can be changed. We have a framework that

can accomodate that, through the passage of laws, by our legislatures, with the will of the people.

Congress only does what we let them get away with. And we let them get away with too much, and then we blame the President, like he's a king or something.

Like I often say, way too many people only show up for the glitzy show--the Presidential race. Some people never vote in off-year elections, and still more wouldn't show up for a local race if they were driven to the polls by a team of snow white horses.

It all starts on the ground floor--the people we elect to city council today are our senators tomorrow. It's pathetic, in a city or town election, that less than a tenth of the voting population shows up to pick the local leadership. And that's not the exception, that's often the rule.

All politics is local, and that's where we need to begin. We need to grow good people from the ground up, toss out the self-satisfied fatcats who don't listen to us, and elect people who understand that We The People are the bosses and they serve US, not corporations and tuxedoed pigs with bursting wallets.

I really think OWS needs to start making life VERY uncomfortable for Senators and Representatives--that way, they just might take the point, that they are 'next' as it were.

[PETRUS]

14. Fair enough. I agree.

Not that I expect it to be easy. And I do think street level protests - i.e. pressure applied from outside the system - are important and have proven successful in the past (women's suffrage, the New Deal, civil rights, etc.). You are absolutely right about the candidate selection process; I have been very frustrated with things at the local level. Money dominates there, too, and not many people even pay attention. In my town, it's mostly property developers running the show (rather than big corporations and finance the way it is at the national level). I very much appreciate the back and forth, thanks.

[MADem]

17. I'd love to see more OWS in front of legislative home offices--the local yokel

offices that they only visit when they are enjoying a "recess." I hate that term--it makes them sound like the childish assholes many of them are!

I really think if OWS starts naming names of legislators at the local level, and connecting dots in cities and towns, it'll have an impact. Example: Congressman (fill in blank): What did you do for that $(fill in amount) donation from (fill in name of corporation)? Or stuff like that, more clever, of course...

I think the exchange of ideas is great. I come from an older POV, but my demographic does vote so I guess we count to some extent. I hope they continue to push for accountability, hone the message so it's sharp enough to cut out a banker's heart, and garner positive press. One way to do it, I think, is to target legislators with specific complaints.

I also liked the idea of waving a flag and singing patriotic songs (Anthem, America the Beautiful, etc.). I noticed some groups started doing that--it helps when people are submitting themselves for civil disobedience arrest to do it to a background of patriotic singing!

[PETRUS]

18. A couple of things...

Your point about age is interesting. I'm in my early 40s, and among those of us who are deeply involved with OWS my age group is pretty rare.

Also, I agree with you about approaching this as a patriot. I make sure to have the following four bits of writing at the ready when explaining to people where I'm coming from re my involvement with the protests.

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

The preamble to the Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Adams from Thoughts on Government:

"Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it."

Madison's thoughts on factions from the Federalist Papers:

A faction is "a number of citizens, whether amounting to a minority or majority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community." And goes on to write that "the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property."

[MADem]

29. My age group went round this rosebush in the Vietnam era.

The "Occupy" concept of "Protest On-site" or "Protest in Place" is sort of like a sit-in ... with better equipment and long-range organization....but outdoors.

One of the things I noticed about the Vietnam era protests (and if this sounds like one of those geezer "Ehhhh, back in MY day..." rambles, I apologize in advance) is that there was a lot of resistance to the entire idea of the protests so long as the protesters did NOT "look like America." When Nixon's "silent majority" started joining the ranks, though, things started changing in a hurry. That's why I think it is helpful to, as much as possible, look like all of America--not just the disaffected youth who have a half century ahead of them that is far less certain than the prime earning years of their parents. Every time I see a granny or a hard hat in the crowd, my heart soars.

I also think more daytime events -- when people are around who are going to work...or looking for work--will bring more notice and news coverage for OWS events. It will also encourage the participation of "day trippers" for whom the whole "camping out" schtick has (let's be blunt, it is just not for everyone) ZERO appeal.

Also, if the legislators start feeling the heat, by demonstrations up close and personal to their offices or homes (or even businesses, if they come from wealthy families who are very "corporate") maybe they'll rethink the sorts of laws they support. It's less helpful in most (not all) jurisdictions to pester governors, but state and federal legislators have more than a little 'splainin' to do, and articulate protesters who can tell Channel Whatever News Reporter Tom Burgundy or Tricia Takanawa why they're in front of the legislator's office, the types of laws he or she voted for, will help hammer home the purpose enormously, I think. After all, geezers DO watch the news (as well as the Daily Show).

I think the trick will be to keep the enthusiasm going over the winter, and not be played by one side or another in the Presidential run-up. I can pretty much guarantee that the right wing is going to try to do the Nixon "commie hippies/law and order" thing all over again, and that paradigm needs to be smacked down so it can't be brought up again, way before any conventions are held.

The more the movement is able to appeal to young, old, working class, intellectuals, everyone from every corner of the spectrum, and this is reflected in the news coverage, the sooner the effort will come to the point of critical mass--and then we'll see change in a hurry, I suspect.

[Luminous Animal]

19. Robert Jensen, the author, is a U.S. professor in Texas.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Buckminster Fuller:

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”

Edit: My Rec didn't "take". Unrec crews at work, not comfortable with changing the system which is eating us alive.

[PETRUS]

5. People are uncomfortable with change.

And fearful of unrest. Particularly if they don't perceive the status quo as an imminent personal threat.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. Yes, people put Personal Convenience ahead of Freedom.

We have the opportunity, before America faces Greece's, Spain's, Portugal's, Ireland's current problems, to right the wrong. #Occupy is the tool and it is already making significant positive inroads toward the desired solution.

IT IS FOR THE BETTER. THE ALTERNATIVE IS UNCONSCIONABLE BUT ALL TOO POSSIBLE.

#Occupy is a highly positive movement. It welcomes you, it needs you, it wants you, and you will recognize a far better way, a people-oriented way, a positive way, which in and of itself is forcing the change we desire. It doesn't all have to come down to living in a park and facing the police of that city's tangled politicians, it is just about wanting change and being willing to change for the better.

[jwirr]

12. I want to follow occupy in the quest but do you think health care

for a child who is very ill is one of those "personal comforts" that we put above freedom? Or for that matter anyone who is sick and needs what Medicare/Medicaid provides? These are status quo programs. Changing the system is going to take time regardless of how we do it. When you are sick you do not have time to go without medications. So what I want is someone who can tell me how we accomplish the goals of occupy without killing the sick. It looks to me like things like this are being overlooked in all this.

I want the corporatism stopped and I do not care how we do that. But I want what is good about our democracy to continue. All I am trying to say is that we have an obvious enemy who states clearly that they are out to get rid of ALL government through privatization and we have a hidden enemy who enables these moves (too damn many Democratic congresspersons and even a president). We cannot let the obvious enemy take over and destroy programs like Medicare/Medicaid & Social Security even more before we can make the changes in the system.

And as I write I realize the DIE might be the eventual outcome for many of us who rely for our very lives on government programs, regardless which side wins.

[sam11111]

9. co ops can make everything

[sam11111]

10. n

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[PuraVidaDreamin]

20. + 1000

Just while watching 2012, Time for change, by Daniel Pinchback I watched the clips w/ Buckminster Fuller, then 2minutes later read this.

I like when that happens.

[county worker]

4. I have been saying this for a while now. The way to marginalize anyone is to define them in a way

that suits your purpose and if you are influential enough your definition will replace reality and people will react to that definition rather than react to the truth.

OWS is very hard to define because it is so leaderless and decentralized. That makes it harder to defeat.

The msm has been using various definitions of OWS but so far hasn't made any of them stick. The comparison to the tea party is not working because OWS will not identify with a political side.

Dirty hippie commies doesn't work because the mix of people in OWS is so diverse.

The charge of violent anti-society group won't stick because the majority of occupies are non violent.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. well, now we know what Robert Jensen's opinion is

how nice of him to speak for... well, wait, is he actually doing any occupying?

[PETRUS]

15. Who knows?

But I am (occupying) and I found value in his essay. Honest input is welcome from anyone.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. Here's my honest input on Robert Jensen: He's a religious right nimbob posing as a lefty.

I'm sure he'd love to make OWS all about finding Jesus and banning porn. If past performance is any indicator.

[Luminous Animal]

22. You mean Robert Jensen who joined a radical Presbyterian church that eschews

supernatural claims about God? That rejects Christian orthodoxy? And who because of an article he wrote about his church, was subjected it to a modern heresy trial? And after the trial the presbytery instructed the Parish to void his membership?

If you know something else about the guy, I'm willing to learn.

[PETRUS]

24. I gather you know more about him than I do.

I just stumbled upon the piece and thought it contained some salient points.

[scarletwoman]

25. You are so utterly wrong about Robert Jensen it's dumbfounding.

Years ago, I had the privilege of being part of a listserve of which he was a member, long before DU existed. He is one of the keenest minds I've ever come across and a dedicated truthteller.

He doesn't "pose" as a lefty, he IS one.

I don't know what your beef is with him - is it that he speaks out against porn? I'm totally with him on that. I think it's symptomatic of a profound spiritual sickness.

In any case, he's a man of unequivocal personal integrity and your judgement of him is way off the mark.

sw

[PETRUS]

26. Thanks.

To you and Luminous Animal for providing some facts about the man. I didn't know who he was, but nor was I too concerned... it's the content of the piece that interested me.

[scarletwoman]

27. Robert Jensen has many, many articles and essays available online, if you're interested.

He's definitely one of the good guys in this world. :)

sw

[PETRUS]

28. Thanks, you inspired me to find his homepage.

Lots of stuff there!

[Warren DeMontague]

30. "profound spiritual sickness" = 12 Step Gibberish

I'm sure Pat Robertson considers himself to have 'profound personal integrity' and thinks he's 'one of the good guys', too.

Fact is, you can dress up that old time religion and Christian anti-sex authoritarianism in as much new-agey sounding gobbledygook as you want, it still is what it is.

"repent or burn", "Jesus loves you" or "Be more spiritual" ... at the end of the day, it's the same shit.

[coalition_unwilling]

16. If they simply MUST have a list of demands, you can point

them in this direction:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2235351

Again, these are only 'preliminary demands' not final proposals that have been deliberated and voted upon by the Occupy Los Angeles General Assembly.

[BeFree]

23. Really, just one demand from us

Equality.

We want everyone to have an equal share. No more of the one percent telling us how we shall live and ho our government responds to our needs.

The people, as a whole, must be heard equally. No more of the 1% running 50% of our lives as Americans. We have the faith that when we have a more perfect union, the people will be better off.