CAN WE PLEASE STOP THE HYSTERICAL WITCH HUNT ALREADY?

[markpkessinger]

You all know exactly what I'm talking about. What happened at Penn State is horrible beyond words. But some of the messages and threads on the board have been WAY over the top. We have a thread discussing something that is, as yet, nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor as if it were fact. I've seen people discussing the entire student body of Penn State as if they are cheerful enablers of child sexual abuse. One person posted a message with the subject, "Pennsylvania is where judge Mark Ciavarella made money convicting little boys and girls," as if such things are somehow uniquely endemic to Pennsylvania. Still others have made sweeping, armchair generalizations about the psychological nature of football, for Christ's sake.

FUCKING STOP IT! PLEASE! CAN WE PLEASE CUT THE BULLSHIT? IS THERE NOT ENOUGH PAIN TO SPARE IN THIS WHOLE SORRY MESS WITHOUT ADDING TO IT WITH IRRESPONSIBLE CIRCULATION OF RUMORS AND INNUENDO, OR UNFAIRLY MALIGNING PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST AS UPSET ABOUT THIS AS YOU ARE?

And for God's sake, do you folks not see how you are feeding into the very same kind of hysteria that fed the "ritual Satanic child sex abuse panic" of the 1980s, in which the lives of hundreds of innocent people were destroyed? It's fucking Salem, Massachusetts all over again.

[dionysus]

1. righteous rant.

[aquart]

4. More like self-righteous rant.

[markpkessinger]

9. Not nearly as self-righteous as much of the pontificating about this topic on this board! n/t

[quinnox]

2. I'm just sick of the whole topic

I have been hiding every thread having to do with the penn state story, its awfully boring to me. DU has long needed a hot topics forum for exactly this purpose so it doesn't clog up other forums when everyone wants to put their two cents in about some silly news story.

[Fumesucker]

15. Silly news story?

An evidently massive conspiracy by some very powerful people to cover up and possibly enable child rape?

:wow:

[quinnox]

28. I have as much interest in penn state story as I do in the Kardashians

that is, below zero!

Yea, so there are scumbags out there who are into child porn and even international rings that are busted every few months, its not exactly news to me this goes on. I'm glad they catch them, but it doesn't shock me.

Crime happens every damn day.

[Fumesucker]

33. Perhaps if you had been a victim of molestation yourself you would have a little more interest..

One in four girls and one in six boys are victims of molestation, it's a *huge* problem in the USA, the average child tell six adults before they are believed and a great many of them never tell anyone.

I was a victim myself at thirteen years old so this hits very close to home for me.

I had less than zero interest in the Michael Jackson death brouhaha that erupted for what felt like a month on DU, it was a good bit more frantic than this but I didn't try to berate others to ignore it.

That's just the way DU and most other online forums work.

[quinnox]

42. Fine, I see why this story hits close to home for you

But I was not trying to berate anyone, just that I personally didn't find the story all that novel or interesting, certainly not worth the feeding frenzy that is going on.

I'm sorry if you thought I was berating you or anyone else, its just my opinion on the matter.

[Fumesucker]

53. It's OK, my skin is thick and you didn't bother me at all..

I'm just a little surprised that evidence of an apparently massive and high level conspiracy is so boring to you.

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

16. "silly news story"?? Well, the victims thank you immensely. I'll refrain from what I REALLY

want to say to such a MORONIC comment.

[quinnox]

29. My statement stands

Look at my response up above for further understanding.

[WinkyDink]

35. It's as stupid upon a second reading.

[City Lights]

26. You are a piece of work.

:thumbsdown:

[quinnox]

30. Yea, just because I'm not fascinated by the latest new story

there are far more important things going on in the world than this routine crime story.

[WinkyDink]

37. OMG. You are seriously out of touch with American culture. ARE you American? Because you have no

clue.

[quinnox]

45. Yes, I'm an American

and I'm sorry you have a problem with understanding that not everyone is going to share your excitement and fascination over the latest crime story being reported in the news.

Truly, we are different in how we process things, not all of us see things the same way.

[jakefrep]

100. You say that like it's a bad thing.

Judging from what passes for culture, maybe being out of touch with it isn't a bad thing.

[JohnnyLib2]

3. Dunno, this may be a 5 or 6 day-er.

Herman may turn the tide, hard to tell.

[TygrBright]

5. But it's SHINY!

Maybe it'll make us look away from the stuff they don't want us paying attention to!

distractedly,
Bright

[WinkyDink]

20. Because a major case of child sex-abuse is just a silly distraction!

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. Yes, the rape of a child and subsequent coverup is "shiny". Please get help.

:puke:

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Salem didn't have any witches; the police already have records of child abuse by Sandusky

from 1998. There is a difference. There's a chance this could get out of hand; but we know abuse occurred. The question is how many people conspired to cover it up.

[markpkessinger]

7. I am not talking about the charges against Sandusky...

... I am talking about discussing an as yet unfounded rumor about pimping children to wealthy donors, and about unfairly maligning a student body of 44,000 students.

[thewiseguy]

10. It is not a rumor. Multiple sources are saying it is being investigated.

[markpkessinger]

48. The rumor is being investigated n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. A significant part of the student body did itself no favours by rioting

Reports say there were thousands siding in the streets with Paterno, and some turned to violence.

[WinkyDink]

40. U. Park has 40,000 students.

[markpkessinger]

41. I agree 100%. n/t

[hlthe2b]

8. Yes... You have a point...

I think this thing has unraveled so quickly over the past few days that it has made digesting the facts difficult, much less identifying what is not known. That said, there is clearly evidence of cover-up among the powerful. That is something we have seen all too often and deserves our attention.

The facts thus far released are horrific enough to make for a bumpy ride over the next few days. This story isn't going away, as much as I'd like for other issues of import not to be pushed off the headlines.

[markpkessinger]

12. I have no problem discussing the topic ...

... but the overheated rhetoric and circulation of unfounded rumors helps no one.

[RandySF]

11. Ask McQueery if it's a witch hunt.

Ask what he saw and did nothing about.

[markpkessinger]

18. THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING I'M TALKING ABOUT

Nowhere have I defended Sandusky, Paterno, McQueary or any of the others involved in this mess. In fact, I agree with you 100% about McQueary. Please re-read my OP -- I was talking about some of the overheated rhetoric and unsubstantiated rumors (not the charges, new rumors) being circulated. That's it. And you respond with this kind of emotional manipulative bullshit.

[WinkyDink]

13. Too bad for you! P.S. Did you READ the GJ Report? Do you KNOW it's been 3 years into the

investigation?

Google "Marc Dutroux". Sorry if you think Satanic abuse charges were fabricated.

[markpkessinger]

27. Yes, I read it. I'm not disputing it. I'm not defending anyone involved...

... The unsubstantiated rumor I mentioned was NOT the original charges, it was a new rumor, that so far is nothing BUT a rumor. I was talking also about some of the overheated rhetoric that has unfairly maligned a student body of 44,000.

And in your response, you're exemplifying what I was talking about: insinuating that anyone who calls for just a bit of restraint in all this is somehow not aware of the seriousness of it.

[golddigger]

14. Yeah, let's weep it under the rug like Penn State did.

:sarcasm:

Fuck that! For this to go on for as long as it did, some very powerful people had to be invovled in the cover-up.

Bunch of sick fucks!

[markpkessinger]

36. I am not talking about the charges or the cover-up.

Nor am I defending anyone involved. Re-read the OP.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

17. NO!

I want Penn State shut the fuck down.
And right the fuck now.
And no, this is not sarcasm.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. You want the university shut down?

Um, OK.

Your post would seem to justify the OP's plea.

[fishwax]

47. you want the university shut down?

seems a bit excessive.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

68. Not at all.

Pimping children out? HUGE deal.
An administration that was completely complacent? EVEN BIGGER DEAL.
What is 17 kids' innocence when 70+Million bucks is on the line? Greedy mother fuckers.

[fishwax]

69. the "pimping children" is as-yet-unsubstantiated rumor and involved the charity, not the school

[YellowRubberDuckie]

70. School facilities, donors...

Yeah. Nothing to do with the school. :eyes:
But it is unsubstantiated, you are right, but does seem likely and not at all far fetched.

[fishwax]

76. that particular rumor didn't concern school facilities, and the donors were TSM donors

although there is likely a lot of overlap between TSM's donor list and PSU's donor list.

[markpkessinger]

82. Donors to the charity, not the school. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Yeah! FUCK the 44,817 students enrolled there!

Right?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

67. Did you see the shit they pulled last night?

They obviously have no respect for anything or anyone. Only a few people are speaking out against what happened. The rest are all freaking out that their precious coach got fired. Waaaah.
Duckie

[cherokeeprogressive]

75. I say arrest all 44,817 of them then.

But then I bet you know they didn't ALL participate, right? Not all of them are football players, but then again I bet you knew that too. In fact, the percentage of the student body that participates in ANY sport is rather small.

I will not defend Joe Paterno, Penn State Football, or anything else. But to want the entire university closed "right the fuck now" for the extremely bad actions of a few is ridiculous and over the top.

[jakefrep]

101. "the preciuous coach" wasn't the one diddling little kids.

[melissaf]

83. You want the entire university shut down

for the actions of a handful of good-ole-boys and one sick fuck. Perhaps we should shut down the entire Catholic Church, and also all of New York City, Los Angeles, and basically any metro or non-metro area in which a heinous crime against a child/multiple children has been committed and someone else has covered it up. How about that? Would that make you happy?

[markpkessinger]

86. + 1000

[coalition_unwilling]

92. The fucking Pedo State U. frat rats are walking around publicly

joking about being 'Sanduskyed' LIKE IT'S SOME BIG FUCKING JOKE??? Shut the whole fucking cesspool down right now. And, yeah, the goddamned Roman Catholic Church essentially was one giant criminal conspiracy -- its assets should have been seized under RICO statutes and its leaders like Cardinal Roger "Move the Peoophile Priests to New Parishes" Mahoney jailed for being accessories after the fact.

[coalition_unwilling]

91. I have slowly and reluctantly come to your position. I think the

entire institution should be shut down. Instead, they're going to play their stupid football game on Saturday like it's BUSINESS AS USUAL. In-fucking-credible and shows exactly how fucked up this whole culture is.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

97. EXACTLY MY POINT!

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. I noted lynch mob dynamics in another thread

And was immediately accused on not respecting people's "righteous indignation."

I don't consider righteous indignation and lynch mob dynamics to be mutually exclusive, but apparently some people do.

:shrug:

[markpkessinger]

50. Thank you! My thoughts exactly! n/t

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SomethingFishy]

22. This is nothing like the cases from the 80's...

In those cases children were coerced into telling the investigators what they wanted to hear. In this case the man was FUCKING CAUGHT IN THE ACT. And when he was caught he was not arrested but given an entire army of children to "choose" from.

You see many people on a witch hunt.. I see many people going out of their way to make excuses for what you called "horrible beyond words". If this asshole was a janitor instead of a football coach he would have been in prison the day he was CAUGHT RAPING A CHILD.

[Safetykitten]

25. It's rumors? Oh dear...not just a river in Egypt.

[markpkessinger]

32. I'm not denying ANYTHING. I'm not talking about the charges against Sandusky or the cover-up...

I'm talking about this: Penn State Scandal: Jerry Sandusky Rumored To Have 'Pimped' Boys To Donors: REPORT

It may be true, or not. Or the truth may be somewhere in between. But people have been discussing it as if the truth of it is a foregone conclusion, and it was in one of those threads that someone posted the message about another, completely unrelated case in Pennsylvania, as if to suggest this sort of thing is endemic to Pennsylvania. That's what I'm talking about. So fuck off with the "river in Egypt" shit already.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. Penn State Graduate? Penn State is your favorite college football team?

One who also idolizes Paterno and Sandusky? Why the outrage?

The "Rumor" story came from the reporter who reported on this story YEARS ago. It sounds like the man knows what he's talking about. Google it. Look at Business Insider.

As for the students...they weren't rioting over 8 SEXUALLY ABUSED CHILDREN, they were rioting over a G-d Damn football COACH. How sick is THAT? Pretty damn sick if you ask me.

on edit I want to correct the above inf:

NOT years ago, 6 months ago this story was reported. SORRY.

[markpkessinger]

34. I AM OUTRAGED!

FYI, I'm not even a football fan, and went to college in New Jersey and New York. I did, however, grow up in the area, and have many family and friends who are just ripped apart by this.

Where the fuck did I ever suggest I wasn't outraged by this? I have not defended Paterno, nor anyone else involved in the least. What they did, and what they failed to do, is reprehensible.

If the rumor turns out to have substance, I will be as outraged as anyone else. It's just some of the things that have been said in those rumor threads -- indicting an entire student body, even an entire state -- have gone beyond the bounds of basic decency!

[thewiseguy]

39. How many students were out rioting last night?

[markpkessinger]

44. I have not defended the rioters either!

Try sticking to what I actually was speaking about in my post.

[thewiseguy]

52. Well I asked you how many students were out rioting last night?

Please do go ahead and answer.

[markpkessinger]

78. I don't know -- I heard a report of 10,000 ...

... I am not defending them.

But I do, at least, have an idea where they are coming from. I spent a considerable amount of time online last night, talking/corresponding with students at PSU, both Paterno defenders and non-defenders. I tried to explain to some of the hardcore defenders that the rest of the country was reading their actions very differently from what they themselves were trying to express, that they were sending the wrong message. I still believe that. But I have to say that some of them were remarkably articulate about why they were upset, and they made some very valid points that merit at least a bit of understanding, even if not agreement. Below are some of their arguments, as I understand them (and there are certainly counterarguments to be made as well). Among the points they raised:

• By far, the majority of the kids I spoke to were in full agreement that Paterno should have done more, and indeed was morally obligated to do more, either by advising the grad assistant to go straight to the police, by calling the police himself, or, after weeks went by and no action had been taken, demanding action himself. And they seemed to think this was the prevailing view among the students.
  
  
• Penn State has a policy in place regarding the protocol to be followed upon receiving this kind of complaint -- a policy that complies with state law, and which is likely virtually identical to similar policies at colleges and universities across the state. Whatever else may be said about what Paterno did and did not do, or about what he was morally obligated to do, the fact is he complied with the law. Many of the students feel that if there are going to be requirements over and above the policy -- requirements which, if not met, can result in dismissal -- then those requirements should be clearly delineated in the policy. They feel that it is rather unfair, when such a policy is in place, to impose additional requirements after the fact.
  
  
• Related to the point above, they point out that if failure to go above and beyond the stated policy is an offense worthy of dismissal, they are outraged that the same standard has not been applied to McQueary.
  
  
• They agree the administration as a whole dropped the ball on this. But some pointed out that by Paterno notifying the athletic director, and the athletic director in turn notifying VP Gary Schulz, who oversees the university police, that police were effectively notified, and responsibility for the fact that Schulz failed to instruct university police to investigate is a matter that properly falls on Schulz, not on Paterno.
  
  
• In light of these, what the students believe are mitigating, circumstances, they felt Paterno should have been permitted to finish out the season and then retire.
  
  Not once, from anyone I spoke to or corresponded with, did I hear a suggestion that Paterno shouldn't have done more. There was not one who wasn't thoroughly disgusted by the events. As I said, there are counterarguments to each of the students' points -- and I made them to those I talked to -- but their points are worthy at least of some consideration. So that's why I reacted so strongly to suggestions by some here that these students were more interested in football than the safety of the children and other similar nonsense. Those kids were in tremendous pain last night. They acted out, unfortunately very inappropriately, in a manner that gave to those outside the institution a very distorted view of what the majority of students think about the whole affair. What I am pleading for is just a bit of restraint, a bit of understanding, before labeling them all "enablers of child abuse."
  
  And I apologize, to you and everyone else, for the intemperate tone of my earlier remarks.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Well, the students rioting over the firing of a damn football coach

is just ridiculous. It may not be the entire student body, but it DOES say a LOT about what the school's priorities are and it isn't sexually molested 8 year old boys. THAT is beyond sad. I have yet to hear ONE report of any Penn State student showing any remorse for what happened to those babies. It's sick that football means more to ANYONE than the life of a sexually molested child. :(

[markpkessinger]

58. I agree, and have not suggested otherwise. n/t

[thewiseguy]

62. How many students were out rioting last night?

I heard thousands...sounds like a good number of PSU students were rioting. What do you have to say for that?

[Liberalynn]

73. +1 million

[fishwax]

51. he reported on the story years ago?

I saw an article by him back in April, after other newspapers had already broken news of the grand jury investigation. I haven't seen an article he wrote about this years ago, but would be interested in seeing it if it exists.

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. I'm wrong. 6 months ago. n/t

[Sinistrous]

88. I bet you never heard any body ask any students how they judged the

molestation charges, either, did you? If anybody in the media had asked them, I'm sure their answer would have undercut your sanctimonious outrage.

Your assumption that because they were upset about the scapegoating of Paterno, they were uncaring about the victims is groundless.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

38. Thank you!!!

A few disclaimers.
Yes I live close to PSU and actually root for their teams. Also, yes I do have an idea what these boys went through since I was molested by someone who I trusted when I was the same age as these victims.

What (allegedly) took place is disgusting. There are other aspects of this case that need to be looked at however. This (DU) used to be a community where we believed the old saw that "innocent until proven guilty" still meant something. That seems to be a quaint relic to some of the people here when it involves sports for some reason that only they are aware of.

The last few days I've seen so many comments that go something like this; Well...I hate football so they must all be guilty. Logical isn't the term that comes to mind when I see something like this.

I've seen people call for the end of all college sports programs. How many student-athletes will be denied a chance to receive a scholarship under a situation like that? I know that it's hard for some people to grasp the concept, but many people really need the sports scholarship in order to attend college. Thousands of people who had nothing to do with what took place would lose an important source of income if the cry of "end all sports" became fact. Restaurants, stores, motels, bars...etc would lose a large part of their income through no fault of their own.

Like it or not, PSU Football is one of the largest driving forces that makes Centre County one of the few financially healthy areas in this pathetic state. Feel free to hate what (allegedly) took place, but it's inane to accuse all sports, all players, all fans and all of the people who rely on the sports teams to provide a better way of life for what is going on.

[markpkessinger]

43. I grew up about 30 miles from State College n/t

[TBF]

56. I can understand how it must feel -

it's a great academic institution and one department should not bring down the school (especially as it is athletics) ... I went to one of the big football schools too and I know how I would feel about the university being disparaged.

I really hope the Trustees shut down the football program for the year (if the NCAA would approve), and rebuild for next year.

[markpkessinger]

60. A year, even longer if necessary, would be totally appropriate

And thank you, for trying to understand where I was coming from, rather than accusing me, as others here have, of trying to "sweep it under the rug."

[in_cog_ni_to]

54. There's NOTHING "alleged" here. Read the Grand Jury report. It's all FACT. n/t

[markpkessinger]

61. FAIL. The charges, and the cover-up, are NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT....

... As I have repeatedly made clear throughout this thread.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. That was not in response to you. It was another poster who posted "alleged" . Look at the post I

responded to.

[markpkessinger]

79. My apologies. n/t

[calimary]

46. NO.

As a mom, the mother of a son, NO. NEVER. Letting it go and getting over it and not making such a big deal about it is THE VERY BEDROCK FOUNDATION of what's wrong here!!!!!! For the Love of God!!!!!

It is an absolute OUTRAGE and NOTHING was done!!!!! NOTHING!!!!! And that's over-reacting???????

Oh, sorry, we've all got to spare the fucking football game, and the multi-million-dollar machine that props it all up. THAT'S what's REALLY important here.

Priorities, after all.

:sarcasm:

[markpkessinger]

57. Re-Read My Post, and respond to what I wrote about, not what you think I wrote about

I am not, for one minute, suggesting sweeping anything under the rug! How dare you suggest that I am? ALL I have asked for is a little restraint from maligning an entire community, even an entire state, with some of the overheated rhetoric that has occurred in these threads. The charges, and the cover-up, are not the rumors. There is another story that, so far at least, IS a rumor. If it is true, it compounds the horror of this whole thing exponentially.

Yes, nothing was done, that is an absolute outrage. I have never, neither here nor anywhere else, suggested otherwise, nor am I suggesting that people shouldn't discuss the issue.

[Beartracks]

71. Good luck getting people to change, Mark.

There was a lot of the same with church pedophile discussions: generally, that all Catholics were enablers of abuse; such things were unique to the clergy; it was somehow worse (what, worse from the perspective of the abused?) because it happened within a Christian organization; that the incidence of pedophiles was higher in the Church than in the general population (it's not); and then, similar to what you noted, sweeping generalizations about the nature of religion.

To try to focus discussion to the facts and to the actual people involved was misconstrued as "defending pedophiles."

If anything, the Penn State cover-up rather mirrors the Church cover-ups, proving that the mistakes and misjudgments of people who should have known better -- who should have reported things to authorities rather than trusting their organizational policies or pretending they didn't see -- are not unique to the Church, but reflect only the human frailties of those involved. Priests are not gods any more than college sports personalities.

I'll probably get hammered for using the word "frailties" because someone will take it as some kind of "excuse" for these people.

Anyhow, for what it's worth, I agree with you.

================================

[roody]

55. Stop reading it if you don't like it.

[KurtNYC]

66. Sure, let's have a calm prosecution of all involved

and, to paraphrase Ghandi:

"We must become the less hysterical and therefore not cap-locked, change we wish to see in the world."

[markpkessinger]

81. Agreed ....

My earlier remarks were intemperate, and i apologize. Please see message #78 in this thread for an explanation of where I where I was coming from ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2282233&mesg_id=2283259 )

[JVS]

72. Why have an orderly investigation when a witch hunt is so much more fun?

[Octafish]

74. What did I write that wasn't true?

Pennsylvania is where judge Mark Ciavarella made money convicting little boys and girls.

Kids for Cash.

Each day, my heart aches more and more...

That's what I posted that bothered you. Interesting.

PS: One thing I agree with what you posted, markpkessinger: This is nationwide. That's why I posted Mark Foley, Republican-FL, was in charge of protecting 'Missing and Exploited Children'. It's way past time that kids receive protection from the professional predator class.

[markpkessinger]

80. "That's what I posted that bothered you. Interesting."

Oh, cut the self-righteous bullshit. ALL of this scandal bothers me.

Perhaps I read too much into what you were trying to convey. If I did, I offer my sincere apologies. I laid out in message 78 of this thread what all went into my response (see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2282233&mesg_id=2283259 ). If you have time, read it, and perhaps you'll understand a bit of where I was coming from. And again, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post.

[TorchTheWitch]

77. amen to that

It's getting absurd.

[FarCenter]

84. Not until we can't find any that float

[saras]

85. The story seems to serve a purpose for both people who haven't processed their own molestation...

...and plain old haters who need an enemy, of which DU has a plentiful supply.

Personally I just don't get why this is supposed to be orders of magnitude worse than other crimes, regardless of how many people have been affected.

I'd like to see the same quality of energy directed towards every corporation that has ever enabled the suffering of the poor, and ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR THOSE CORPORATIONS. 10,000 kids dying of malnutrition, or pollution versus a couple dozen being injured but not killed - that's an easy call for me. I want EVERYBODY who's complicit to pay.

Rape is rape. The thing that makes it worse for children is not their "innocence", but their ignorance and weakness, which means the rapist can do it for years. An adult being raped at gunpoint feels just as powerless and violated as a kid does, and may even feel as innocent. I just don't buy the "no sex=innocent, sex=guilty" model in the big picture. It smacks of right-wing fetus worship.

[markpkessinger]

87. Couldn't agree with you more. Superb analysis! n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

93. Superb analysis? That was a shit analysis.

And I'm trying to be gentle.

[muriel_volestrangler]

94. "people who haven't processed their own molestation"?

That's a pretty clinical way of expressing things - 'processing' makes it sound like part of a bureaucracy. But if that is the case, then the story is serving an extremely good purpose, because such victims need all the help they can get.

"Right-wing fetus worship" is a disgusting thing to accuse DUers of. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. Well said!

It is amazing how so many here know exactly what has happened, though facts are still emerging, and how many "tough men/women" we have here (sitting in the their chairs) telling everyone what the "proper" thing was to do or how they would have been better at handling the situation. It's one thing to speculate, it' another thing to pretend such speculations are facts.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

95. in some peculiar ways it's a bit like the post 9/11 reaction - let's just strike hard and fast and

not worry too much about what is rumor, what is speculation and what are facts and certainly let's not have any of that constitutional nonsense about presumption of innocence unless proven guilty.

How many times does it have to happen in the human experience that when something terrible comes to light and passions are inflamed -judgment completely goes out the window?

Just what is so terrible about waiting for a calm and reasonable examination of the facts?

[leeroysphitz]

96. Where there is smoke there is fire. n/t

[fascisthunter]

98. no witch hunt here... too bad for you I guess

deal with it.

[SidDithers]

99. Unsubstantiated rumors and speculation almost never get discussed as fact at DU...nt

Sid